I need info...

[apesnmike]

OK,
so breifly ill list my issue :

MY FISH DIE!!!!

I have a 2 yo established ( we did move 7 months ago and re-set it all then ) FO tank.
With sump i run around 70gal.
No live rock,
I have : 15 gal sump with remora skimmer, chaeto, and filter pads, i removed the bio balls 2 weeks ago.

Ever since i got the tank the only thing i can make live are my hermits..

I get fish, chromis and or a goby and they do well a week then croke!!
I feed every other day - and only what they will consume.
The tank levels read normal on all but nitrates and thats well under 30ppm.
Im told the chaeto will help with that .

WHAT CAN POSSIBLY BE WRONG??? what should i check? do ?? try??

[Andrew]

Can you please post all your tank water and did you add or change anything to the tank lately?

[apesnmike]

andrew-

Todays Tests :

5:30pm pst

SG : 1.024
Ph : 8.0
Temp : 76
Ammonia : 0ppm
Nitrites : 0ppm
Nitrates : 20-25ppm

I havent changed anything other than the bio balls being removed 2 weeks ago to make room for the chaeto in the sump.
I also notice some new green hairish algae in small spots ( maybe my photo period it too long or the algae food stuck? ) so im adjusting that ...
I got the last batch of fish on the 21st of Jan. 3 chromis, 1 yellow clown goby.
Today i have 1 chromis left. And my same 8 hermits ( they are almost 2 years old )

Im feeding formula One and VHP

[apesnmike]

any ideas?? anyone??

[Andrew]

"Nitrates : 20-25ppm"

Thats why. Keep on doing water changes. Are you overfeeding?

[apesnmike]

i thought nitrates in a FO didnt affect it as much?
Will the chaeto help with this?

[mcox33]

Did you by any chance fill the tank using a water hose. Even a new one. We had a local guy do this a few years ago and had the same problem.

When he set up the tank he used a garden hose to fill it then mixed the salt in the tank. No big deal with a new tank as far as mixing the salt in the tank.

Turned out the water hose was the problem. He removed everything cleaned the tank and equipment, and restarted with new sand and rock and 6 weeks later he was keeping whatever he wanted fish wise.

This was the advise of the lfs owner and it worked, he is now a happy reefer.

[dchao]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6674815#post6674815 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by apesnmike
i removed the bio balls 2 weeks ago. I think this is your problem, bio-balls need to be removed gradually, and let the bacteria have time to transfer onto other media (LR's or sand bed). Do so eruptivity will cause an ammonia spike and another new tank cycling. Without BB's, I think you should also upgrade your skimmer to something more powerful (like Euro-Reef or ASM), since the skimmer is you only active filter in the entire system, you need something that can extract a lot of skimmate.

Your nitrate is fine, my fish swim in water with NO3 as high as 60ppm without any problem.

[SoonerFan732]

Did you remove all the bio-balls? That should pretty much removed the biological filtering for your tank as it was described above.

Are your test kits detecting Ammonia and Nitrite levels as 0 PPM?

[apesnmike]

yes -- ALL bioballs were removed ( at the advise of my local fs store owner, kevin from aquatic dreams ) ... the chaeto was placed that day.

Can i keep some bio balls - in with the chaeto?!!! in sump i mean?!

the ammonia and nitrites read 0 on my tests - yes.
im using both - seachem and saltmaster

I didnt fill the tank with a hose- i use RO/DI only from my home, and then bottle

im feeding every other day -
and water changing one a month 30%

The more i read the more confused i am.. LOL make since?

[SoonerFan732]

If the bio-balls have been dry for a couple of weeks they wouldn't be much use in solving the current problem. If your not having problems with ammonia and nitrite it doesn't sound like your tank is cycling.

I haven't used refugiums so I can't comment on the advice given to you in that regard. My experience in FO systems is with using mechanical devices for filtration (wet/dry, skimmer, canisters, etc...)

When did the fish die? Recently or right after you removed the bio-balls?

[SoonerFan732]

Never mind about when the fish die, I reread the original post. I see the answer to my question now.

No fish ever lives past a week in the past 2 year, correct?

[aquaman67]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6679293#post6679293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by apesnmike
i thought nitrates in a FO didnt affect it as much?


April,

As for nitrates, well, according to Robert Fenner's The Conscientious Marine Aquarist page 81,

"There is no clear dividing line over which nitrate is absolutely harmful; conditioned fishes and invertebrates have been cultured in water of several hundred - even thousand - ppm. All that can be said without fear of contradiction is that lower numbers are better."

Before everyone freaks out, the keys here are conditioned and lower is better.

I doubt it's the nitrates.

High nitrates would kill the inverts before they would kill fish IMO.

Are all your fish coming from the same store?

Maybe they are selling fish caught with cyanide?

That's just a quess, but try somewhere else and acclimate very slowly (two hours).

See if you can keep a Damsel alive....

[apesnmike]

aquaman -

Yes ( the most recent fishes ) they have been from the same store. Im thinking of trying liveaquaria.com again. I didnt have this dying issue before we moved.
And my tank was reading the same.

I have 1 chromis now. LOL
and still 8 hermits. the inverts to great?! weird huh?

Maybe ill just give it more time and see what happens, Im happy with my remora, and my sump, and my filtering capabilities i just dont get why all the sudden this issue arizes.

Maybe im adding too many fish at once ( i bought 4 last time ) i am using drip but only for 45 minutes.. ill slow it down a bit next time to aclimate.

[mcox33]

Could it be that there is something in the new water supply has something that your RO/DI isn't removing sufficiently. Just trying to help

[dchao]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6680158#post6680158 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by apesnmike
the ammonia and nitrites read 0 on my tests - yes.
im using both - seachem and saltmaster
It was ammonia spike, but that was two weeks ago. You did not do the ammonia test immediately after the BB's were removed, did you? Even small amount of ammonia for a short period of time is bad for fish, these spikes can disappear the next day as nitrification bacteria starts to convert it into nitrite/nitrate. If there was a spike two weeks ago, it won't be detectable now.

You also add cheato, but chaeto don't do much for ammonia, they mainly remove nitrate, that's all. One question, did you put DSB in the refugium? DSB adds another protection, it's another filter media for bacteria to grow on and can remove nitrate too.

As I said before, the ammonia was there and is gone now (ammonia=0, nitrite=0), chaeto in place. Go and increase skimming, and you can start to add new fish back, add one every two weeks, do it very slowly, treat it just like a new tank.

[apesnmike]

what is DSB??? i will do whatever i need to?!

I will wait a week and see if this chromis lives still.. retest, water change, and add 1 more..
maybe by the time the year 3000 gets here ill have 10 fish?!
LMBO!!

[dchao]

DSB = Deep Sand Bed

By creating a sand bed with a depth of at least 5". You are creating, deep in the sand bed, an anaerobic layers with very little oxygen present. Inside this layer, de-nitrification process will occur and NO3 is further converted into nitrogen.

DSB is optional in a fuge if you have chaeto inside already. If you want to set one up, take some sand from the dsiplay to seed it.

[sean48183]

Without the live rock I would add the bioballs back. Make sure your filter pads filter the water before they hit the bioballs. You need more filtration then just your skimmer and chaeto IMO. Nitrates don't kill fish. I would suggest taking your water to a LFS and having it checked for ammonia. Your test kit may be bad. I would almost guarentee that you had an ammonia spike after removing the bioballs. Also when you add your top off water do you buffer it? That ro water can be harsh and cause your ph to get out of whack.

[apesnmike]

SEAN -

I do not buffer my RODI water after its made, and before i add it to the tank. My ph has been perfect?! should i be doing something?!

My filter pads are the first to be hit with water from the return ... then the chamber below had balls ( that i took out ) then the chamber below that has the chaeto now... it flows to the open area in the sump where the return pump and skimmer sit.
I dont know where or how i would keep sand down there, so i think i will deffinatly add the balls back in.
If im spiking in ammonia ( wich sounds like i am ) why would this do it EVERYTIME i get fish??

Maybe i better just stick to crabs eigh?!

[apesnmike]

i forgot to ask too --- how often need i be changing the pads??
im using a floss pad, a micron pad, a charcol pad and an ammonia removing pad?!

[dchao]

Why do you have ammonia removing pad there? Let the BB's or LR's do the job of removing ammonia. If you use any ammonia removal thingy, you are not letting the good nitrification bacteria fully establishing themselves in your system.

Have a look at the Acclimation Guide from LiveAquaria.com, it very easy to follow. For fish, I use the float and cup method.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=19&ref=3319&subref=AI

I will change/wash the pads when it looks very dirty. Carbon must be changed at least once a month.

[apesnmike]

im using drip ...

the ammonia pads are from when i was cycling. I will remove them Right now.. im cleaning the tank, and adding some balls back in.
I dont have any LR at all so --- i will have to make do with the filtering i have and with your help i think im getting there??
I was just scrubbing my walls and noticed one of my large red leg reef hermits is out of its shell and dead :(

THIS BITES!

[apesnmike]

update : just tested...

This is after stiring around the tank and such too :

7:59pm
78 degrees 1.24 SG
8. ph
nitrites 0ppm
ammonia <.25ppm
nitrate 20ppm

so nitrates are coming down.. ammonia deffinatly there ( but i also have a new dead crab and fish ) so im sure its fresh. Ill do a water change in the am.

THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR HELP!

[SW1TCH]

I wouldnt add anything right now till the tank does its minni cycle now. Give it 2-3 weeks before adding a fish. Than i would add like 2 chromis than if they dont die in a week or two than add another fish.

[dchao]

Since you don't have LR's or DSB, good idea too add some balls back to your sump (bad advice from your LFS).

Remove the ammonia pad, don't add any fish until you're at end of your cycle (+ one week). Your bio-balls are most likely to be dead now, so cycling could take longer to complete.

I like adding more chromis if the last one survived the ordeal. Keep a large group is the key to keep them alive. And they certainly don't do well in an aggressive tank.

[apesnmike]

dchao -
Thanks ... i love chromis really - only in groups LOL its keeping the groups alive thats proven to be difficult
From one hurdle to another - my next will be what kinds of fish to keep in my FO.
After talking to you here, im betting my LFS totally forgot that i have a FO now a FOWLR tank.. gesh

My bioballs were all still pretty wet ( and warm ) so im hoping they didnt completely die off they were in a bucket of sw from the sump and left under the tank in the cuboard.

Time will tell... ill update then!!