View Full Version : 20L or 10 reef
cichlidguy4
02/14/2006, 07:38 PM
I have had experience with only freshwater. I have been running african cichlid tanks for three years and I have decided to venture inot saltwater. I got advice from the guys in the nano forum to come here. I basicly know nothing about filtration for SW and would like to know which tank I should start with a 20L or 10 gallon, those are my only choices. I need to know eerything about filtration I can learn and from there I am pretty good. Once I can learn about the filtration I would like to know what corals to start with.
I really appreicate the help.
Thanks,
Casey
BurntOutReefer
02/14/2006, 07:45 PM
yikes!...the hardest and most debated Q IMO...Filtration......
I have used UGFs, Berlin Style, HOB, Canisters, Wet/Dry, LiveRock Skimmer only systems......
They are all good, but they all depend on the time you intend on putting into husbandry.....you are going to hear "dont use this as its a Nitrate factory", dont do that because it will cause your blue eyes to turn green (or whatever that song is).....
so...the bottom line. How much time do you want to spend with basic husbandry....and then work from there....just IMO/IME....ohh...and WELCOME!
BurntOutReefer
02/14/2006, 07:47 PM
sorry...BTW....the only real filteration difference between FW and SW is the skimmer.........otherwise, all FW filter systems will work with SW....
cichlidguy4
02/14/2006, 07:49 PM
I have plenty of time for maintaining the tank if thats what your refering to. I would just like a simple filtration that will work efficently and keep my tank running and keeping everything healthy. I just don't want it to high tech just simple.
One Eyed Bunny
02/14/2006, 08:43 PM
As for the tank choice. Go with the 20L. Bigger, typically, is better. Also, you'll have more room to fuel your soon to be addiction.
Jon Evans
02/14/2006, 09:06 PM
get a good protein skimmer, and make sure you use live rock and do partial water changes at least every two weeks, and you should be cool.
cichlidguy4
02/14/2006, 09:08 PM
I am just you to hang on the back filters and the like. What should my filter look like on the 20L? Can someone give me a link to skimmers and stuff? I am planning on cycleing with live rock and then adding corals. Also after the filtration what corals would be a good start?
Thank you
hey fishy fishy
02/14/2006, 09:36 PM
http://asmskimmer.com/
im just getting my tank together as well. these skimmers, according to many users, perform as well as the euroreef but cost about half. why? the plastic they are made with is cheaper, but it doesnt have any impact on performance, just dont use it as a football :0)
the other quality skimmer is the aqua c, said to be the best of the hang-ons (on the back of a tank like a power filter)
for some good info, and a lot of reading, check this thread. quality info from a pro.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=554786
hope it helped you as much as it did me
hff
cichlidguy4
02/15/2006, 03:18 PM
Is that all the filtration I would need? Just the 100 dollar skimmer? How exactly do you put it on and how does it function?
Andrew
02/15/2006, 03:33 PM
Well don't go with just a cheap skimmers. Some good ones are the coralife super skimmers, ASM, Euroreef, Deltec and ect. The Protein skimmers is a good source of filteration for a maine tank and that removes the waste. The cheaper you may, most of the time, you less its going to skim. You can do a search on skimmers in the equipment form for pictures and ect.
Wryknow
02/15/2006, 03:41 PM
In a typical SW tank the live rock provides most of the filtration in terms of ammonia and nitrite break down. The skimmer removes a lot of the proteins before they have a chance to break down. The first thing that I would recommend for you to do is to buy a decent book. I recommend Natural Reef Aquariums by Tullock.
All that you really need for filtration is sufficient live rock, a skimmer, and decent water circulation. A deep sand bed can also be very helpful and inexpensive.
Just remember that a reef set-up requires a much lighter bio-load than a fresh water system can handle. On a 20L tank you may only be able to have 2 or 3 small fish before waste build-up starts to become a real problem for you (there are TONS of variables there though.)
Good luck and enjoy!
cichlidguy4
02/15/2006, 09:17 PM
I have one final thing to ask, to sum it all up. Can someone just list all the equipment I should have for my tank? Specificly.
Billy1234
02/15/2006, 10:18 PM
Go with the 20L. I have a 20L and now I want a bigger one :lol:. It is 30" long so it makes for a lor a lot of viewing space. On my tank I just have a protein skimmer, and a light. I have a CPR BakPak, which works great for me, Remoras are also excellent though. Get some good live rock, keep up with your water changes, don't make your bio-load too heavy, and you should be good to go.
Good Luck :thumbsup:
-Billy
kelly_and_brian
02/16/2006, 12:42 AM
Here is what I have done, not sure if it is ideal but 8 weeks in to this things are still going in the right direction. {Before you run out and buy this stuff, let some of the more knowledgeable people educate both of us about how I could have done better}
- 10 gallon tank (had this)
- AC 110 modded to be a fuge see nano-reef.com
- 18 watt lights for the fuge
- 96 watt coralife lights
- 2 MaxiJet 600 powerheads with Hydor FLOs
- one bag of the Arag-Alive sand
- about 13 lbs. of live rock
- 2 50 watt stealth heaters in the AC110 since our house is a little chilly this time of year.
- auto topoff from autotopoff.com
- aqualifter pump attached to topoff
- marine test kit, I chose seachem to start with
- thermometer
- Instant Ocean Salt
- Refractometer (Not necessary, but a good idea)
I use "Purified Water" from the store and Instant Ocean salt. So far things have been really stable. With a tank this small, it is easier to budget in buying water over an RO/DI unit. I wouldn't use tap water.
You'll also need a test kit and thermometer. I had the tank, and my guess is that I have spent $250 - $350 to get here. I think some of this investment can be rolled over to the 80 gallon tank that I am planning for my next upgrade. If not, at least the experince will.
Notice no skimmer ... but to pull out the nasties you have to be committed to weekly water changes. I'm only doing a gallon a week and so far it is a pretty trivial task. I was evaporating about 1/4" per day (~1 gallon/week) and was doing daily top offs until the auto topoff was installed. I have heard mixed reviews for the nano sized skimmers so I decided to wait until more entered the market.
Hope this helps. I did make one mistake I should warn you about. If you put this much light on a tank this shallow, you should get some plastic grid and window screen and create 3 - 4 layers so you can ease things (including the coraline on your rock) into this much light. I bleached my coarline, it sucked. 3 weeks later my rocks still look somewhat snow capped, but some coraline is growing back.
I don't know how much info you want, but I set this tank up and waited at least a month for the cycle to complete before adding some blue legged hermit crabs, and then a couple weeks later I added a frogspawn coral. So far I have been lucky, but the frogspawn was not the best choice for a first coral.
I have really enjoyed the amount of life in this tank, and it is small enough you notice all of the little creatures that show up. There are all sorts of things in there that I can not identify, but all the big stuff is still alive so I am ok with all of the worms and bugs and snail things ... it is neat how often you find something new. I had freashwater before this and those tanks are dead compared to the abundance of life in my little 10 gallon reef.
cichlidguy4
02/16/2006, 05:52 PM
I have decided I am getting the 20L and my LFS is haveing a 20% off sale so I might be getting it soon. I am 14 so money doesn't come easy. I am going to look into some skimmers and start from there once I get the sand and LR in. Thanks for all the help. I can never use enough so if there is anything you think tthat could be added please post.
cichlidguy4
02/16/2006, 07:18 PM
Do I need another tank or something for the skimmer to drain to? I am still clueless about skimers.
Andrew
02/16/2006, 07:21 PM
If you get a hang on back skimmer, you don't need a sump for the skimmer. If you get a skimmer such as the ASM you will need a sump. I have two skimmers in my sump. Maybe this picture will help some:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/Evanish4/Picture-004.jpg
cichlidguy4
02/16/2006, 07:27 PM
Ok. I am trying to keep it simple so I think I will find a good hang on the back skimmer. Any suggestions?
Andrew
02/16/2006, 07:29 PM
coralife super skimmers work good. ( in my picture I have a coralife super skimmer. Its the one on the left. I use mine in my sump but they can also hang on your tank. Look through this thread for pictures and info on this skimmer:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=563298&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Billy1234
02/16/2006, 08:46 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6758982#post6758982 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cichlidguy4
Ok. I am trying to keep it simple so I think I will find a good hang on the back skimmer. Any suggestions?
The 2 most common, fairly cheap (and good quality) skimmers are the CPR BakPak, and the AquaC Remora, which may be even better. They are both simple HOB skimmers for a fairly good price. On MarineDepot the BakPak is $128, and the Remora is $164. The prices are fair considering that these are both great skimmers.
Thanks for all the help. I can never use enough so if there is anything you think tthat could be added please post.
One important piece of advice I can give:
Don't listen your LFS (Local Fish Store). They will sell you anything to to make money off you. If see something you like, ask here first. The more knowledgable peple will steer you in the right direction. And when you go to your LFS, leave your wallet home :lol:
cichlidguy4
02/17/2006, 01:48 PM
Ya I started with cichlids from a forum and I have found it very helpful to get advice from all the knowledgeable people on here and the other forum rather than the LFS. I know 100x more about cichlids than anyone at my LFS but I tend to go to one that only sells cichlid. The people there I know and they are very smart and they know what they are talking about. At the petmart I go to here in Tampa for supplies, srictly supplies no way fish, I ask questions and they will not really know what they are talking about. A few people there do know what there talking about but not many.
I will look into those skimmers.
cichlidguy4
02/17/2006, 02:03 PM
I am still a little confused about skimmers. If anyone has hang on the back skimmers with out a sump please post pics. Also I look at the CPR bakpak and I am thinking about that skimmer or the coralife 65. Whick one is my question? And what is a good powerhead?
Billy1234
02/17/2006, 04:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6764629#post6764629 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cichlidguy4
I am still a little confused about skimmers. If anyone has hang on the back skimmers with out a sump please post pics. Also I look at the CPR bakpak and I am thinking about that skimmer or the coralife 65. Whick one is my question? And what is a good powerhead?
I would go with the BakPak.. it has 2 clear, simple chambers, and is easy to clean. Here are 2 pics of my BakPak- not the greatest pics though, but you'll get the idea
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/Farinon/TankPics012.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/Farinon/rgtercdsa.jpg
cichlidguy4
02/17/2006, 05:07 PM
OK. Thanks now I have read about them and that picture helped. Now what would be a good powerhead?
cichlidguy4
02/17/2006, 07:09 PM
To add to the above I have another question. What are some good cheaper lighting fixtures and bulbs? Also it has just come to me that it could be cheaper and easier to get a 12 gallon nano cube. Am I right?
Billy1234
02/17/2006, 08:03 PM
Now what would be a good powerhead?
For use as a powerhead.. or for the protein skimmer?
Also it has just come to me that it could be cheaper and easier to get a 12 gallon nano cube. Am I right?
I guess it would be cheaper, but you won't be able to put a protein skimmer on it. I would stick with the regular 20L rectangular tank, for a few reasons.
More water volume
More choices for aquascaping
More options for lighting, skimming etc.
The Nano-Cubes are good, but I think a regular tank leaves for more options..
cichlidguy4
02/17/2006, 08:06 PM
I don't know about your question with the powerhead because I don't know the diffrence so please explain. I will stick with the 20Long, you said rectangular so just to clearify it will be long.
Billy1234
02/17/2006, 08:44 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6767051#post6767051 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cichlidguy4
I don't know about your question with the powerhead because I don't know the diffrence so please explain. I will stick with the 20Long, you said rectangular so just to clearify it will be long.
Powerheads are used to make current/flow in the tank, but they are also used to take the water in for the protein skimmer. MaxiJets are good for flow in the tank (not connected to the skimmer though). Rios are good to use for the skimmer, because they are quiet. I'm not sure which pump the BakPaks come with now, mine came with a MaxiJet 1200 (295gph).. but the newer ones might come with a Rio. Yes, the tank is pretty long, the dimensions are 30" x 12" x 12".
cichlidguy4
02/18/2006, 06:19 PM
Last but not least. Lighting. What would be a good fixture that is not over $200, I would prefer the $150 range if possible.
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