Copper

[Abalone joe]

I use Used aquirium equipment regularly. I've heard it stated that used aquariums, Ones in which copper based medications have been used, Cannot be later used to house inverts. Can Anyone verify this besides just paroting other dire predictions and other useful info like we see in so many aquarium books by the experts. I understand if you see blue silicone from coppersafe or something it may be a problem. Will a copper test on the water be sufficient to be sure. In addition, What would be an advised testing procedure- Fill the tank with water, Test, And test aqain at a later date? If so, How long?
Other medications are also used aqainst fish diseases and parasitic invertabrates that aren't copper based. What danger do these pose? Does anyone know of a cheap inverabrate species that could be used as a coal mines canary?
Although I definately want answers to these questions and problems, Feel free to use this thread for other copper issues. When I started this thread, I purposely said Copper generically so as to be used in this way. It is an important topic!

[Thomas B.]

I had a copper poisoning in my 90 gal reef tank about a year ago.
I spent 3 months trying to get my system cleaned out. I had to do 8 massive water changes....change my substrate twice.....take all of my LR out of my take and "SCRUB" it to get as much organic material as possible off of the rock...

I also used cuprisorb and another type of copper absorbent pad directly in my sump.

I found that your common every day snail are very sensitive to copper and will demise quickly if there is copper present.

I tested my water very frequently and the copper levels slowly went down to nothing now. I have the same tank, pump, sump and filter equipment I did then....

I learned that copper will only bond with organic materials and that it IS possible to reuse the equipment.

Good luck

[Abalone joe]

Yippie!!! I have as many freshwater snails to use as I could want. Do you think snail copper sensitivity also applies to freshwater snails? Many times fresh water creatures are hardier to things due to freshwater's fickle chemistry.
Also, I'm taking it that your experience could be interpated to show that if copper is below testable levels the tank or equipment will be safe with invertabates.
BTW. Just out of curiousity, How did the copper get in your tank.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand if you see blue silicone from coppersafe or something it may be a problem.

FWIW, I do not think that copper generally turns silicone blue, but I could be mistaken. I thought that was related to colored organic medications.

Equipment should be cleaned, IMO, before using it. A rinse in acid or bleach (or both in series) is suitable if they are coated with any calcium carbonate deposits or organic deposits respectively.

Testing for copper is not a good way. It can be lethal to inverts at levels below test kit detection.

Once carefully cleaned, testing with a small invert (crab, snail, etc) in salt water seems a prudent path that many folks use to determine if the tank or other equipment is OK.

I learned that copper will only bond with organic materials

Actually, copper bonds to many inorganics quite well too. Calcium carbonate, for example.

[Thomas B.]

the copper got into my tank because of a "Brass" check valve I had used on my return line from the sump. Brass is 70% copper and 30% zinc....

Randy was most helpfull while I was dealing with this issue.....Randy, is a GOD!!!

;)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hows the tank doing, Thomas?

[Abalone joe]

Back to the test invert method. Are freshwater snails just as copper sensitive as saltwater snails?
Please answer the above question as it is the most important. I'd really rather test with free snails or other freshwater inverts than all the expense of buying test animals and salt water supplies.
Just out of curiousity, Why is copper so toxic to inverts. Does it have to do with the lack of a backbone or does it have to do with the bloods ability to utilize oxygen? I understand that Cephalopods (sorry about the spelling) are gastropods and that their blood is based on copper. Copper has only one seventh the oxygen carrying capacity that iron does. Is it that free copper interferes with that already limited oxygen carrying capacity? This is of course assuming that most other inverts also have blood based on copper.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know the relative sensitivity of freshwater and saltwater snails. I would say that the release of copper from surfaces may well be different between freshwater systems and marine systems. I'd at least check marine inverts before setting up a tank, but even before that, a test with freshwater snails may be OK.

I'm not sure the exact mechanisms of copper toxicity are perfectly understood:

Mechanism of acute copper toxicity in euryhaline crustaceans: Implications for the Biotic Ligand Model. Bianchini, A.; Martins, S. E. G.; Barcarolli, I. F. Departamento de Ciencias Fisiologicas, Fundacao Universidade Federal do Rio Grande (FURG), Rio Grande, Brazil. International Congress Series (2005), 1275(Animals and Environments), 189-194. Publisher: Elsevier B.V.

Abstract

The Biotic Ligand Model (BLM) for copper is largely based on data obtained from freshwater fish and is currently calibrated to protect freshwater invertebrates. The extrapolation from fish to invertebrates must rely on the general assumption that the mechanisms of toxicity induced by copper in the sensitive invertebrates are the same as those obsd. in the less sensitive teleost fish. Therefore, the need for more invertebrate data is a crit. area for the improvement of the BLM for freshwater and for its extension to brackish and marine waters. Results from recent studies have shown that in low salinities the mechanism of acute toxicity in euryhaline crustaceans sensitive to copper is similar to that obsd. in freshwater fish and crustaceans, i.e., iono- and osmoregulatory imbalance induced by Na+,K+-ATPase inhibition. However, other results clearly indicate that the same mechanism of toxicity is not evident in euryhaline crustaceans more tolerant to copper. They also indicate that in seawater the mechanism of acute copper toxicity either in sensitive or more tolerant species is definitely not assocd. with an iono- and osmoregulatory imbalance, as opposed to marine teleost fish.