Two week old post meta clowns dying

[Kathy55g]

I am very concerned. My two week old post metamorphosis juveniles are slowly dying.
One every day for the past couple of days after a long break with no deaths. Three dead this morning in one corner of the tank. Usually once they get their first band, they are pretty hardy. I have not had deaths after the first band in previous hatches.

The dead ones are not the smallest, all had 2 bands and were orange. All look like they had been eating fine. They look perfect. My ammonia is non existent. I cannot figure this one out.

The living fish in this tank are all acting normally.

I have recently stopped feeding the rotifers in the tank and briefly ran a seasoned sponge filter to help clear them out. I have been adding system water at a slow trickle to bring the volume up in preparation for putting them on the system. Before Otohime arrived, I fed them NHBS and formula one and dried cyclopeze through an organza filter so they only saw the tiniest chunks. I have been feeding them Otohime A for the past couple of days in addition to NHBS that they have been getting since day 6. Yesterday I quit the NHBS.

Anybody have a clue why this is happening?

[BlackOnyx]

Do you run a UV??? Bacterial infection or virus?

[Kathy55g]

I have been adding system water at a slow trickle to bring the volume up in preparation for putting them on the system.

The system has a big UV on it. So that water is "sterile". The larval tank has been culturing rotifers for a couple of weeks, so there is undoubtedly bacteria of some sort. I do think that if there were a bacterial problem, more fish would be affected.

Two thoughts:
One, the afteraffects of the chemi-clean in the parent tank that killed all the larvae in the previous hatch, we think, but are not sure.

Two, I was thinking these guys were 3 weeks old, and not 2 weeks as they are. I was fooling around a lot with the tank, adjusting air for the sponge filter, adding, then taking out a sponge filter, adding system water. Perhaps it was all too much for these newly post-metamorphosis fish. I should have left them alone for a few more days.

I have left them alone except to clean up gently and feed since this morning. We'll see how they do tomorrow morning.

[MarinaP]

How many babies do you have per a gallon of water right now? If the density is low, the strongest ones will fight with each other to death.

[jnowell]

I had that happen, got 24 through meta in a ten gallon, now I have 18, they fought like crazy, but my growout system wasn't ready to go online yet. :( Good luck Kathy, you'll figure it out.

Jason

[Luis A M]

Just a hunch,but I think this juv mortality is associated with bs.If this is true,it should stop now that you quit.Good luck,keep posting:)

[Kathy55g]

I haven't noticed any particular aggression. There are about 35 in a 20 gallon tank, filled to about 15 gallons. Previous hatch, 30 juvies in the same size tank, and no juvenile mortality.

My next batch will be a couple hundred in the same size tank. If I am lucky and/or good.

I hope it is due to the bs. Cause that will mean it is over.

[BlackOnyx]

there was a thread you replied on kathy with someone stating they had a protozoan of some sort?? perhaps something similair has made its way to your larvae tank and is able to stay in it?

[Peter Schmiedel]

Kathy,

I would rule out thought one as chemical poisining would most likely not only effect a few fish but all. Specially as you stated that the dead ones where not the smallest. Sounds randomly so I would rather think of an bacterial problem.

You recently swithced this batch to Otohime, could it be that food from differrent composition etc forces the fish to adapt their bacterial flora and that caused trouble?

[jnowell]

I doubt it would be food related as several us switched to Otohime at the same time. I haven't heard any other deaths from new otohime users, and if I'm not mistaken, we were all feeding F1 w/ Cyclopeeze before. Mine appear to be doing much better after the switch. I hope it was BBS as Luis said, since we are all about to reduce the amount they get.

How are they today Kathy?

[Dman]

I ran into the same problem and beat my head against the wall for months. MY problem was air, not enough of it, not even close. Now I run at least 3 airstones on fairly high in each tank that's post-meta. Did the trick for me, stopped what I was lovingly refering to as creeping death.

[NicoleC]

Sounds plausible. Do you have an O2 test kit, Kathy?

[Kathy55g]

Interesting ideas, everyone. The most plausible one I agree is the O2 one.
I don't have an O2 test kit, but I do have airstones and airpumps. I can increase the O2 and see what happens.

I found one dead this morning and between in the time it took to go eat breakfast and go to church and back, two more dead!!!!!!

I hate this.

[spk]

Kathy,

Sorry to hear about your losses.
You mention in one of the early posts that you fed them dried cyclopeze. :(

Remember a post that I posted on and there was another response about the same thing happening. That the cyclopeze seemed to affect the health? Could this not be your problem?

Just a thought.

steve

[Kathy55g]

So I put more air into the water and watched as 5 more died. Big ones. Decided to test the water.
Ammonia and nitrite present, despite the absolutely yellow ammonia alert badge. Lesson learned. Adding air probably increased the pH, and made the ammonia more toxic.

I put the tank on the system with a small stream of water. The living fish seem not to be distressed by this, and no one has died in the last 15 minutes. I'll test the water with a test kit in a few minutes.

Damn!

[Luis A M]

You can´t have fish dying of anoxia without knowing.It is so obviously dramatic.Measuring O2 is complicated or expensive,much easier is to check the pH which falls down with CO2.
Open water circulation if for some reason you haven´t done it yet.
Check carefully your fish for fast breathing or skin lesions.

[Dman]

Those badges are notorious for their sometimes short life span. They're easy enough to test before use. Just place them on top of an open bottle of bleach for about 10-15 minutes, if they change colour you're good to go, if not toss em.

[Kathy55g]

Bleach will test positive for ammonia? you must mean ammonia bottle.

pH was 8.2.

since I started the system water exchange, only one more dead, and the live ones are more active and swimming instead of hanging at the surface. I think the crisis is over, but I will keep you all posted.
K

[Dman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6778623#post6778623 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kathy55g
Bleach will test positive for ammonia? you must mean ammonia bottle.




Sorry, my bad

[Kathy55g]

2 more dead. All big ones....

The rest of the fish look better than ever. More active swimming.

[Kathy55g]

Four hours have passed with no more deaths. Fish look good. We will see what the morning brings.

[Atticus]

I am starting to think SFS (Sudden Fright Syndrome). If your BBS have not been fed phytoplankton or Selcon prior to feeding this is very plausable. It seems to be a much more common occurance with bangaii, but what you are describing sounds all too familiar.

The problem is actually a HUFA or OMEGA 3 deficency resulting in improper neuron/brain development. In medical terms... decreased myelination. It is said that this can cause a "short circuit" in the brain and you can actually watch the fish die from it. I witnessed a bangaii die from this while I was cleaning a growout tank a while back. Very quick and very obvious. I just don't know what the clownfish equivalent would look like.

[Kathy55g]

Interesting idea, Atticus. Thank you for your thoughts.

By yesterday, they had not had bbs in 2 days. When I was feeding them bs, I only fed them newly hatched bs, so the shrimp would not be eating anything at that point. During feeding of the shrimp period, the larvae/juveniles also ate dried cyclopeeze and Ocean Nutrition formula 1. In addition, there were tons of well fed rotifers, on live phytoplankton, in the tank. For these reasons, I don't think it was an omega 3 deficiency.

I thought I was scaring them when this first started, but the yesterday's deaths were excessive, and I think, ammonia related. I was relying too heavily on the ammonia alert badge, and it was broken, steering me wrong. Hard way to learn this lesson.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6778292#post6778292 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
You can´t have fish dying of anoxia without knowing.It is so obviously dramatic.Measuring O2 is complicated or expensive,much easier is to check the pH which falls down with CO2.
Open water circulation if for some reason you haven´t done it yet.
Check carefully your fish for fast breathing or skin lesions.

Thanks for your thoughts, Luis.
What do fish dying of anoxia look like?

I think putting them on the system water has turned this around. I'll know better when the lights come on. I am having a bit of insomnia tonight.

The fish that died looked absolutely perfect, under the microscope, with no lesions of any kind. My eyes are too old to tell how the live ones are breathing, even with reading glasses.

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6782509#post6782509 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kathy55g

Thanks for your thoughts, Luis.
What do fish dying of anoxia look like?

I think putting them on the system water has turned this around. I'll know better when the lights come on. I am having a bit of insomnia tonight.

The fish that died looked absolutely perfect, under the microscope, with no lesions of any kind. My eyes are too old to tell how the live ones are breathing, even with reading glasses.

Gasping desperately for oxygen.Very fast breathing.At last they lose equilibrium and fall to the bottom evidencing neurological damage.Nasty thing to see.

Use good light and a loupe (besides your glasses).Fish must be checked in their tank.

[ediaz]

You can check C02 in the tank by collecting a sample of water, maybe a quart, from an affected tank, checking the pH, and then aerating the sample vigorously for a few hours to overnight. Check Ph again. If the pH jumps lets say from 7.6 or 7.8 to 8.0 or better, then you have carbon dioxide accumulation in the water.

Ed

[Kathy55g]

zero dead today. whew.