Complicated low PH

[elahav]

For the last few weeks my PH dropped from 8.2-8.3 to 7.9-8.
I did not have any change with my tank. I started using Kent Superbufer DKH and Kent superbufer Calcium to try and balance them. I am able to get the calcium to 430 however I cannot get the DKH to 4-4,5. When I measure the ALK few hours after adding the superbuffer DKH I am getting 5.5 meg/l and when I am measuring it next day its 3.5 meg/l
When I am adding the superbufer DKH, the PH jump to 8.15 and 1 hour later its coming bake to 7.95. I tried to use baking soda and I have the same results. I tried to balance it twice a day and still have the same results.
I understand the low PH is cause because low ALK (Randy article) but I just cannot get it.
I am using PH meter, confirmed it with another prob and calibrate it.
My sump is outside (the garage) so I thing that I don’t have a excess CO2
I am not using Calcium reactor
I am using Kalk reactor (limewater) for autotop
The tank is running for 6 month.
My coral and fish are doing great.
Any advise how to raise the PH and control the DKH?
Thanks

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My sump is outside (the garage) so I thing that I don’t have a excess CO2

If the pH and alkalinity are correct, you must have excess CO2 in the water. There is no other way. Did you try the aeration tests in this article?

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm


I did not have any change with my tank.

Did it maybe finally get cold down there, and you closed up the house? Excess CO2 in you're home air is the most common cause of low pH.

Using a buffer like Superbuffer is not a good way to raise pH. It just boosts alkalinity too high.

I am using PH meter, confirmed it with another prob and calibrate it.


What brand calibration fluid? Not all are accurate.


Measuring pH with a Meter
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/chem.htm

A Comparison of pH Calibration Buffers
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/rhf/index.htm

[elahav]

Thanks Randy (I was waiting for you....).
If the pH and alkalinity are correct, you must have excess CO2 in the water
The PH is not correct and the ALK is also not correct. That’s exactly what I am trying to fix. As I mention earlier, 1 hour after I add the buffer its goes back again to PH 8
Also, since the sump and skimmer are outside the house, how can I have excess CO2? Regardless I will do the rest this evening.
I am using the “American Marine Inc” PH calibration

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The PH is not correct and the ALK is also not correct. That’s exactly what I am trying to fix.

You misunderstood. If the value that you report for each is correct, then you must have excess CO2 in the water. :)

Let's see how the tests turn out. :)

[elahav]

Thanks.
I will know within few hours.

[elahav]

I did the test and the PH with air stone outside the house raise from 8.02 to 8.09. The test from air stone inside the house, the PH did not rise at all.
Is that mean that I need to buffer the ALK?

[bertoni]

The results indicate that the CO2 level in the house is greater than the CO2 level outside, and that's pulling the pH of the tank down.

I wouldn't add more alkalinity if the level is already 4.0 meq/L or more. For your regular routine, you could consider using a high-alkalinity supplement like limewater or some of the 2-part solutions, and that might help some.

Where are the sump and skimmer? Maybe the air there is a bit high in CO2?

Also, are you using the meter with batteries or plugged into the wall? If it's plugged into the wall, you might be seeing some electrical interference.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is that mean that I need to buffer the ALK?

What is the alkalinity now?

[elahav]

Yesterday at 11 AM PH was 8 and ALK was 3.5 meg/l .
I added 3.5 TSP baking soda to get 4.5 meg/l. (70 gallon total water).
at 4 PM I measured 4 meg/l and the PH return to 8

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you want to raise the pH, use baked baking soda when you need to boost allklainity.

The pH should have been higher after aeration outside at that alkalinity and starting pH, unless the temperature changed a lot.

[elahav]

The sump and skimmer is outside (in the garage) and I am using topoff water with limewater. I am using Wall plugged PH meter (AC2) and the temp is constant 76.6-77.2.
Te problem is that as much as I add baking soda (according to Randy calculator) its raise the ALK ½ of what it should do and no raise of the PH.(after 2 hours) and that’s 2-3 times a day.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unbaked baking soda won't raise pH when first added (it actually drops it a bit), and may never if there is excess CO2 around. Do you bake it first?

[elahav]

I baked it 2 weeks ago and keep it in a close bag.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oh,OK.

Other than limewater and high pH two part additives/baked baking soda, aeration and growing macroalgae are the only other good options.

I don't know why your pH might be lower now than it was a few weeks ago, aside from indoor CO2.

[elahav]

Thanks Randy, I am going to do WC and start all over again with each point that you mention.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, good luck. :)

[elahav]

Do I need to wait between adding "Kent Superbufer DKH" and "Kent superbufer Calcium" when I need to buffer both of them? and which will be the first?
Thanks

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wait just long enough for them to mix in. Usually a few minutes is plenty. It makes little difference, but I'd add the calcium first. :)

[elahav]

Thanks

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy reefing. :)

[elahav]

Well, I think I was able to determine the cause for the low PH. The ALK is low.
My ALK is 2.6 meg/l .I added backing soda (according to the calculator) to raise it to 3.7 meg/l.
The ALK picked up to 3.6 meg/l for 1.5 hour and after that it get back to 2.8 meg/l
I did it 3 times yesterday and I can see 2 possible reasons.
1. I did the formula wrong –Well ,I checked carefully and I did it right.
2. My tank has big demand for ALK?
3.????
Any other possible reason for this problem?
Thanks
P.S Calcium is 450 ppm

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In 1.5 h, the alkalinity won't drop appreciably in any tank, but it might continue to mix into remote parts of the system and appear lower for that reason.

[elahav]

Do you suggest that I will keep dosing (slowly) to get to the right levels?
Thanks

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd aim to keep the alkalinity between 2.5 and 4 meq/L. If one day it is 2.6, I'd boost it to about 4 meq/L, and then see where it is the next day or so. :)

[elahav]

Thanks,I will try and see.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)

[elahav]

I am getting more information every day. I found that I cannot reach the levels of the Cal and ALK. I am trying to get 450 Cal and 4.5 meg/l

When I am adding Cal (Kent Superbuffer),my ALK (and PH) going down very fast. (1.5 hour)
I was able to keep ALK at 3.5 meg/l (and PH at 8.13) at 270 ppm Cal.
When I added the Cal, the ALK went to 2.7 meg/l and the PH went to 7.9
I understand that it is not balance but what should I do?
Thanks
P.S Magnesium is 1230 ppm

[reverendmaynard]

How are you adding the buffers? Pouring them straight in could lead to precipitation, which would cause the other element to become depleted. Try mixing them into some fresh water before adding.

You could also try going to Randy's 2 part, instead of the Kent product. Then you'll know exactly what you are putting in.

I apologize if this was already suggested, I have not read the entire thread.

[elahav]

I am mixing with fresh water before adding and the Superbuffer Cal is doing the work(picking up the Cal) however I cannot get to the right levels.
P.S for ALK I am using Randy #1 formula

[reverendmaynard]

The fact that it's called "superbuffer" makes me think that it is more than just calc. I know it can be hard to find ice melt down south, but if you could possibly find the calc part of Randy's formula, that might work.

Do you see any area or piece of equipment in the tank that has unusually thick crust of calcium carbonate on it (heaters, pumps, etc.)? Or see any clouds or snow when adding?

The reason I ask, is that the calcium and carbonate have to go somewhere. They either have to precipitate out of the water as a solid by themselves (usually right when added when the concentration is very high), or get used up by a cacifying organism like coralline, coral, clams, etc. (this generally doesn't happen at the rate of 100ppm/hour, though). Additional chemicals within the "superbuffer" might be causing some chemical reaction not normally seen with 2 parts.

Maybe it's possible that all of your calcifying organisms are so starved of these elements, that as soon as you have enough of both to support calcification, they all go into maximum calcification mode at once and do use it up that fast. I have no idea if this is possible, but a strange situation like yours may have a very strange answer.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Kent Superbuffer contains no calcium. It is just an alkalinity supplement. :)

http://www.kentmarine.com/saltwater/sb.html

[reverendmaynard]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6893697#post6893697 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Kent Superbuffer contains no calcium. It is just an alkalinity supplement. :)

http://www.kentmarine.com/saltwater/sb.html

I kinda though that myself, it being called a buffer and all, but I don't understand how the calc could go up, and the alk and ph go down if a buffer was being used. Very confusing.

This is what happens when you buy manufactured supplements. They don't really tell you what's in them, and it can lead to confusion. I stick to the 3 parts of your formula, so I know what's in it. Everything else should take care of itself through water changes.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I kinda though that myself, it being called a buffer and all, but I don't understand how the calc could go up, and the alk and ph go down if a buffer was being used. Very confusing.


At least 10% of the unusual problems in this forum are really just testing inaccuracy. :)

[reverendmaynard]

Yeah, and 67% of all statistics are made up on the spot. :D

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:lol:

Only 50% of the time, I think. :D

[elahav]

I am sorry for not being here last 2 dyes. On top of my problems I have a crash on my computer and I have to format it …

I will try and revue my status and your questions. I am almost desperate.

1. I got a new Salifert Calcium test to make sure the test is right. and they are consistent.

2. Few days ago I add a ball valve in the middle of a 1” pipe and when I cut the pipe it
was full with thick crust of calcium carbonate. I also open the pump (Little giant)
and it was also with that crust.
3. When I am adding the Backed backing soda into the sump ,there is clouds or
White snow in the water for a few seconds.

4. The buffer that I am using is “Kent marine Turbo Calcium”. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4768&Ntt=turbo%20calcium&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

5. I tried with Seachem PH buffer to get the ALK and the PH and it has the exact
same results.

I hope that someone can give me a possible reason.
Thanks

[elahav]

P.S For 1 day I added Lime water for the calcium and Alk and the results with the ALK and PH was the same ,so probably its not the Cal buffer

[reverendmaynard]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6900694#post6900694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by elahav

3. When I am adding the Backed backing soda into the sump ,there is clouds or
White snow in the water for a few seconds.



I think that's your problem right there. You need to dilute the solution in fresh water before adding. Enough so you DON'T see a cloud or any snow when you add it. That snow is the alk reacting with the calc, creating calcium carbonate. That's what all that gunk in your pipes and pumps is. You may also have low magnesium, which usually helps to inhibit this kind of spontaneous reaction.

Try mixing each additive into a gallon or so of fresh top-off water before adding slowly to the sump (seperately, never mix them). This should prevent the clouds and snowstorms, and allow the additives to disperse into the water properly.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The buffer that I am using is “Kent marine Turbo Calcium”. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

Perhaps this is just a nomenclature problem, but Kent Turbo calcium is a calcium additive, not a buffer. So if you are adding it in hopes of boosting alkalinity, you will certainly see no rise, but may get precipitation of calcium carbonate if you add too much.

Can you again explain how much of what you are adding, and why?

[elahav]

Thanks
The ALK that I am adding is exactly according Randy Fornula#1 (backed soda, -Arm&hammer)
The Kent Calcium buffer that I am using I dilute it 6 TSP with 1 cup of fresh water solution. The snow that I can see is when adding it to the sump.

Tank is 54 Gallon +20 Gallon Sump

When I am getting Tank tests: ALK 2.6 meg/l and Cal 320 ppm (PH is 8)

I am adding:
1. Backed soda 150 ml (try to increase to 3.6 meg/l)
2. Kent buffer Cal 15 TSP to get 420 ppm (7.5 TSP every 4 house)

½ hour after I added the test results are ALK 3.2 ,Cal 375
2 hours letter I am getting 2.7 and 365 PH drop to 8.1

Another fact that may help. I cannot grow the Chaeto in my refu. I have good flow, lights but it doesn’t grow.
Thanks again

[reverendmaynard]

Try diluting it with more water, I use a gallon. I also use randy's formula 1, and I dilute that into a gallon of water, then drip the resulting solution for several hours. I see no snow or clouds, though I did when I poured the straight solution into the sump.

[elahav]

I will try this,but still-I am doing everything according to the"book" and I don't know the reasons.

[reverendmaynard]

The "book" doesn't really talk about the actual mechanics of adding the stuff though. At least not that I've found.

Also, have you tested your magnesium levels? If they are low, that could affect your ability to keep the other levels high.

[elahav]

Thanks
The "book" I mean the Knowledge of the forum...
The Magnesium level is 1230-1250 (I am keeping it like this).

[reverendmaynard]

Those mag levels seem fine.

I really think your problem is just from adding too much too fast. Try diluting it more before adding, and adding it slower (maybe a drip).

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

2. Kent buffer Cal 15 TSP to get 420 ppm (7.5 TSP every 4 house)

Let's just call that turbo calcium or kent calcium to avoid confusing it with a buffer. :)

The calcium is 365 ppm now?
Let's measure again, then boost the calcium to 420 ppm or so with another seven level teaspoons of Kent Turbo calcium dissolved in fresh water. Add no buffer or alkalinity supplements. Then after a few hours measure the calcium again.

[elahav]

I already did this test. The Cal level remains o.k. Meaning it reduce with about 20-25 ppm every day. (As far as I understand its the demand of the Tank. Adding the Cal drive the ALK and the ph down and that what I am trying to understand

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is not a test. I just wanted to get the calcium set, and then approach the alkalinity, rather than trying to raise both at once.

[elahav]

Thanks .I am going to boost the calcium to 420 and let you know shortly

[elahav]

I boost it.
test are:

PH 8.16
Cal 440
ALK 2.5 meg/l
What to do next?

[bertoni]

The calcium and pH are fine. The alkalinity is acceptable, but shouldn't go any lower. I'd personally dose baking soda (unbaked) to raise the alkalinity to between 3-4 meq/L, and try to maintain it there.

Now might be a good time to consider a long-term supplementation scheme for calcium and alkalinity. Have you made a batch of the DIY 2-part? If not, for the short term, some B-Ionic will work well, IME, and this article goes into a lot of choices:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

A limewater drip might work well for you.

[elahav]

Thanks Bertony but my problem (in the post) that when I am Adding Cal Its drive the ALK and the ph down .
Randy suggest to get the Cal first and then to deal with the ALK.

[bertoni]

Dosing alkalinity, at least in the form of baking soda, shouldn't cause problems at this point. Well, assuming the flow is good in the area where you're adding the supplement.

[elahav]

I will start to dose ( I have good flow in the sump).

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I agree. Using a two part additive or other balanced calcium and alkalinity method starting now should help avoid the up and down swings that you have been observing. :)