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View Full Version : What has been your experience with Reef Safe Ich treatments


mmgm
02/26/2006, 11:52 AM
All:

The last time I had an ich problem was about 2 years ago.... Since that time I QT and have no ich issues.... I was surfing around RC and noticed some new products out like No Sick Fish (NSF) and was wondering if anyone has tried the product and whether it has been used with success?

Please only vote in the poll if you have used the product.... I am very curious about peoples experiences with the products....

One of these days someone will come up with a Reef Safe cure for ich.....

Just curious.....

Thanks

mmgm
02/27/2006, 09:37 PM
Looks like there is not too much experience out there on this topic.....

Maybe in a year or two things will change.....:D

dbig14life
02/27/2006, 11:47 PM
i used kick ick but i got ick again. i dont know why, but i think it might be from all the new fish that were added even though they were completely cured. do you know if ick stays in the sand even if no symptoms appear?

kraze3
02/27/2006, 11:58 PM
It will stay in the substrate but only until it multiplies then it swims and looks for new hosts (your fish)

TerryB
02/28/2006, 02:50 AM
Most experienced aquarists and those that have a lot of experience helping people in forums with sick fish do not recommend any of the so-called reef safe medications for ich. Simply put, I have not seen one that is consistently effective. Better to use a treatment that is dependable and proven. BTW, people that quarantine all fish properly BEFORE placing them into their display tank rarely have a problem with ich. Now if we could just get people to quarantine before they kill some fish!

Terry B

mmgm
02/28/2006, 06:58 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6845594#post6845594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TerryB
Most experienced aquarists and those that have a lot of experience helping people in forums with sick fish do not recommend any of the so-called reef safe medications for ich. Simply put, I have not seen one that is consistently effective. Better to use a treatment that is dependable and proven. BTW, people that quarantine all fish properly BEFORE placing them into their display tank rarely have a problem with ich. Now if we could just get people to quarantine before they kill some fish!

Terry B

I hear you and agree.....I was just wondering if things have changed over the past few years around this topic.... Recently I noticed the company No Sick Fish (NSF) is a sponser here on RC.... In addition to being a sponser they claim to have a Reef Safe cure for ich...... Since they are a sponser I was wondering if things have changed and someone finally came up with a Reef Safe cure for ich..... However when reading threads on the topic it is clear to me folks in the hobby are at best split on the opinion that a Reef Safe cure exists.

Was wondering if anyone who has actually used the product could contribute to the poll.....

Anyway.... looks like things have not changed much in the past two years.....

I wonder what Reef Central's position is on allowing sponsers that sell Reef Safe cures for ich..... Since most members on the web site do not beleive there is any credibility to these products....

Whats up? Is there an integrity issue here? Or does NSF really work and worth sponsering on RC? :confused:

mmgm
03/03/2006, 07:09 AM
Well

Looks like not many people use the Reef Safe cures for Ich.....

And also it looks like people that have used them have not had any success with them.....

Although additional feedback is appreciated... but please vote only if you have used these products.....

Thanks...:D

cccapt
03/03/2006, 08:29 AM
I tried NSF for 7 days as the instructions state. It did absolutely nothing. No affect on fish or corals. Continued the treatment for an additional 7 days. Again, no affect on any fish or coral.
Waste of money IMO.

reverendmaynard
03/03/2006, 03:13 PM
In regards to concern about integrity...

It seems to me you've got it backwards. RC does not sponsor them, or endorse them that I'm aware of, they sponsor RC.

A sponsor, by definition, is an entity (NSF) that gives another entity (Reef Central) something (money) in order to support what they are doing (running this website). I'm not aware of any reciprocal endorsement from RC that any of their sponsors products work better than any other competitor that is not a sponsor, if they work at all. If RC has represented their position as being that their sponsors' products work and/or are in some way better than the competitions products, than you have a point (and I would like to see that representation). I doubt this is the case though.

I imagine RC will take money from just about any company out there that wants to give it, whether their products are the miracle cure-all they claim to be, or are instant death to all life in the tank.

What actually is kind of weird, is that a company that sells a product that doesn't work would sponsor a public forum where the fact that their product does not work can quickly disseminate to a large number of hobbiests. You'd thing a company like that would want the ignorance to continue.

leebca
03/03/2006, 05:52 PM
A friend of mine used Stop Parasites. Check those results:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=754008

;)

leebca
03/03/2006, 05:55 PM
No Sick Fish posting:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=775056

viggen
03/03/2006, 06:19 PM
isn't garlic suppose to work well?

blueplanet
03/03/2006, 08:27 PM
Hi, any one can advise on the effectiveness of the "Ich-Attack" from Kordon of novalek, www.novalek.com/??

Brock Fluharty
03/04/2006, 12:49 AM
I have added ginger to frozen foods, and it works very well. I did it on a firefish, and a royal gramma.

mmgm
03/04/2006, 06:07 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6873798#post6873798 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reverendmaynard
In regards to concern about integrity...

It seems to me you've got it backwards. RC does not sponsor them, or endorse them that I'm aware of, they sponsor RC.

A sponsor, by definition, is an entity (NSF) that gives another entity (Reef Central) something (money) in order to support what they are doing (running this website). I'm not aware of any reciprocal endorsement from RC that any of their sponsors products work better than any other competitor that is not a sponsor, if they work at all. If RC has represented their position as being that their sponsors' products work and/or are in some way better than the competitions products, than you have a point (and I would like to see that representation). I doubt this is the case though.

I imagine RC will take money from just about any company out there that wants to give it, whether their products are the miracle cure-all they claim to be, or are instant death to all life in the tank.

What actually is kind of weird, is that a company that sells a product that doesn't work would sponsor a public forum where the fact that their product does not work can quickly disseminate to a large number of hobbiests. You'd thing a company like that would want the ignorance to continue.

Thanks for the clarification..... I think what I meant (but did not say clearly :D ) was:

Does RC have any Integrity or ethical issues by accepting money from a company they clearly know will sell expensive and useless products to all of their loyal members?

This site clearly gives sponsor companies exposure to a huge population of people in this hobby..... And in the sponsor forum members of RC have opportunities to provide feedback for most sponsor companies.....I was always under the impression that RC screened sponsors and only allowed companies as a sponsor if they were ethical and truely beneficial to the hobby....

In this day and age I guess it's just all about money....... :rolleyes:

Whats Interesting is that in the vendor forum there is no area represented by No Sick Fish (NSF)....... So people that use NSF have no direct way to provide feedback.......:strooper:

To your point Reverend..... It's a good thing members of RC can post feedback such as this.... and I agree if NSF does not work this fact will be known to ALL in a very short period of time......:D

With this in mind.... I would appreciate feedback and voting in this poll from people that have used these products before..... I don't want to just assume No Sick Fish does not work.... This would not be fair.....

Any first hand experience with this stuff?:D

reverendmaynard
03/04/2006, 06:26 AM
no, sorry.

I wouldn't try it under any circumstance I can currently imagine. If for some reason I couldn't use a hospital tank, I would just work to improve water quality and diet, and hope the fish could fight it off.

leebca
03/04/2006, 07:42 AM
viggen,

Garlic, garlic juice, allicin (a garlic derivative) is seriously misunderstood. It's one of those 'rumors' that have gotten out of hand. Tests show that garlic sometimes improves appetite, or the appearance of an improved appetite. On the other hand, just as many times that it has 'worked' it has 'failed.' Something 50/50 is worth a try in order to get a fish to begin eating, but not to be counted upon.

On the scientific side, the garlic plant has a weak antimicrobial regime of chemicals that protects the plant. These weak antimicrobial chemicals are released when the plant is crush or physically hurt.

The ability of this weak antimicrobial set of chemicals to overcome obligate parasites like Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) has not been proven. There does seem to be times where it might have an affect on the course of the disease. There is much work on this. But this is still in the cetegory of all the other 'miracle' cures that is 'reef safe.' It can't be counted upon to cure or help a sick fish.

The silly part of all this viggen is that these antimicrobial chemicals are potent when freshly released (when garlic is freshly crushed), but near worthless when it's been on the shelf for a few days. These chemicals are alos worthless when eaten. Stomach acids quickly destroy the chemicals. People seem intent on buying garlic for the wrong reasons AND the wrong garlic.

Would I treat a sick fish with garlic and hope it gets better? Absolutely not! I practice responsible reefkeeping and I rely on proven treatments and cures (and: water quality, proper nutrition, etc.) to get my fish healthy as soon as possible.

Read more about garlic if you're interested:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=541977

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=546776

This is a recent article on garlic:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

mmgm
03/04/2006, 08:48 AM
Just to recap where we stand..... Based on current feedback:

1. No Sick Fish (NSF) - does not work

2. Kick Ich - Seems like there are mixed reviews about this. Some people have had success with this product. This is consistent with other threads I have read.

3. Garlic - is a myth and does not work

4. Ginger - is a myth and does not work

5. No other Reef Safe cures that work are available

6. Copper and Hyposalinity are still the only sure way to treat the parasite

7. Some have claimed fish develop a natural immunity to the parasite.... True or False? No feedback on this.....


It's amazing in this day and age no-one has a reef safe cure for ich.... Especially when you look at the market potential from the commercial Fish and public aquarium industry..... I guess if they do not have a medicine then us Reefers will not.... After all do public Aquariums use NSF or Kick Ich?

I would guess Public Aquariums do not use these products because they know they don't work.....

Make sense?.......:confused:

Hard to beleive......:D

leebca
03/04/2006, 09:29 AM
Copper and hyposalinity are NOT the only treatments. You need to do some homework:
Steven Pro’s article on Marine Ich (Part 1):
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm
(Part 2):
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

Copper and hyposalinity are the most commonly used almost 100% successful treatments, but the transfer method and, as I prefer a combo of the hyposalinity with vacuuming the tank twice daily, has also worked quite well.

Now you invite discussions on immunity and the technical fine points of MI? Go to other threads. E.g.:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=774458

Professionals and public aquariums:
1. Always quarantine
2. Use prophylactic treatments of copper and/or hyposalinity.

:rollface:

ana_luciav
03/04/2006, 10:04 AM
Just to mention something, I have tried garlic and it worked the only thing is ich is tricky it seems to dissapear and then comes back and most people that use it think that it did the trick and stop giving it. Now on the hyposalinity and fresh water deep can someone tell me a good link where it gives specific instructions on how to do those well. Those seem to always work the best but are risky if not done properly.

leebca
03/04/2006, 10:29 AM
Very good point about garlic. It is the same for those who sometimes claim their 'reef safe' product cured their fish. Since Marine Ich seems to 'disappear' for a while, some people think their fish are cured, then a few hours or even a few weeks later, spots show up again.

A freshwater dip does not kill Marine Ich. It can help a fish with gill infestations of microfauna, and it is a very good prophylactic treatment. My procedure for the dip on all new, incoming fish (that don't have a guarantee which requires I not do this) is in this thread:
Read December posts in this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=669022

OTH, a FW dip has been known to cure a variety of fluke and worm surface parasites and it has been known to even cure Marine Velvet, but this latter case is harder on the fish than a copper cure, IMHO.

ana_luciav
03/04/2006, 11:35 AM
I just started a tratment of kick ich because my clown doesnt seem to get over it and to see if it really works. Let you know what happens

TerryB
03/04/2006, 01:09 PM
There are many treatments for Cryptocaryon irritans, but the effectiveness of each varies from consistently effective to probably worthless. Copper, hyposalinity and the transfer method are the dependable methods. UV light and vacuuming can help, but are probably not going to cure it by themselves. A system that can be used at fisheries that does seem to work that is essentially vacuuming twice a day. They coat all surfaces with a polymer that Crypt does not attach to well. Then they can sweep the surfaces with a special machine twice a day to remove tomonts.

I have not heard of any public aquariums using any of the so-called reef safe medications with success. UV lights can be very effective when placed between tanks in a multi tank system. All the water must pass through the UV before it gets to the next tank. This prevents the spread from one tank to another. Of course, they use very powerful UV lights that are cleaned and changed often with the correct water flow.

IMO, our responsibility is to use those treatments that give the best odds of success when dealing with a life or death situation for the animals.

Terry B

ana_luciav
03/09/2006, 07:38 PM
Well then.... kick ich killed my plate coral but on the good side my fish seem to be much better. So that whole thing about it being reef safe and safe for corals is not true. As soon as I put it in my coral shrinked to half its size and 2 days later it was gone. But for the other inhabitants( invertebrates in general) they are ok. The mushrooms also changed color a little and one fell. Evry one get their own conclusions if to use it or not.

leebca
03/09/2006, 07:50 PM
Please keep us posted about the fish. Even though you had some coral reactions, are you still using it?

Thanks.

mmgm
03/10/2006, 06:08 AM
Well:

I want to thank everyone for their feedback on ths thread..... The information provided was truely useful......:D

However, based on your feedback I can only reach the conclusion that when it comes to Reef Safe cures for Ich we truely do not know anything to make any informed decision about their effectiveness to cure ich. The poll voting is completely skewed across the board and opinions vary similar to the voting. These results seem to be consistent with feedback I have been reading about ich cures on Reef Central.....

I have a 90 gallon QT that is sitting empty now..... I am thinking about buying some fish with ich and trying Kich Ich and NSF in a controlled environment to see if I get any results..... But on the other hand since I QT why bother spending the $$$ on these cures if there is a chance they don't work.....:D

I guess if they really worked these companies would offer a money back warranty as a backing to their products.....:D

Oh well I guess things have NOT changed since I last thought about Ich a few years ago..... From this perspective thanks again for the feedback.....:D

Enjoy the hobby........:D

jmicky41
03/11/2006, 01:17 AM
I am in the middle of a kick-ich treatment. After 3 doses, no apparent progress. When I started the treatment my mitratus butterfly had about 6 spots, the solar wrasse had only a few, and the rabbitfish had about 10. As of now, the butterfly and the rabbit have far more, while the wrasse has none. The yellow tang, goldflake and flame seem unaffected. I used this stuff years ago on a hippo tang and it seemed to work. I do run a UV, albeit an undersized one, but I never bothered to change the bulb despite having a fresh one on hand - big mistake. I'll update further progress ( or lack thereof) if any one is intersted.
I called the KickIch people with questions the other day and they do talk a pretty good game.

ana_luciav
03/11/2006, 08:58 PM
I am still using it and the fish are ok, doing better every day. The only loss was the coral and the mushrooms seem to have adapted to the treatment and are doing ok so far. Ill keep you posted

leebca
03/12/2006, 12:57 AM
ana_luciav,

One of the problems with getting accurate information from using products like Kick Ich is having a proper diagnosis. You wrote that your fish 'can't seem to get rid of it.' This implies the fish shows signs of "it" but isn't succumbing to the disease. This is more in line with the fish having an immunity to it, then a typical case of a new fish acquiring the disease for the first time (or a fish without immunity). But then again, are you sure it's Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)?

So, your 'test' might be more along the lines: will an immune fish be rid of "it" with Kick Ich.

When you comment that the fish 'seems to be better' such a comment doesn't mean much. What specifically are you seeing, or think you see, which makes you make that statement? The more specific you can relate what is happening, the less anecdotal the information becomes. And without a proper diagnosis to begin with, we're unsure what "it" is.

Thanks for your response and for keeping us informed.

:rollface:

ana_luciav
03/15/2006, 05:16 PM
Ok here are the specific details about what I have been going thru. 1st thing, I got a new fish that died 2 days after I had it and when I looked at it upclose it had white spots. Ok thatwas mymistake I should have put t in qt before putting it on the main tank but the store was one I knew. 2 weeks later my fish started getting white spots,did the research and decided to not stress them out at first. I treated with garlic and got a cleaner shrimp, kept all levels perfect ( i tried this first because I didnt want the corals to die) and the angel fish spots went away. The clown spots turned brown after 2 weeks and the morning onto the 3rd week I found him lying at the bottom of the tank lethargic and barely swimming, going sideways and almost going belly up. all this time He had not let the shrimp catch him to clean him so he was getting more affected by the ich than the angel fish. What I meant by "not getting rid of it" was that he wasnt letting the natural process happen. That is when I decided to go with Kick ich. The angel fish behaviour was the same always. That same day I started treatment. By the next day the fish was better, and what I mean by he is doing better is that he is swimming and eating as normal again. The only loss was the coral, which died 2 days after the 1rst treatment of kick ich. The clown still has brown spots but the treatment is not over yet I still have 3 more doses to go. Which is around week and a half.

spoiledcats
03/16/2006, 10:05 AM
Reef Safe-
Cleaner wrasse, cleaner shrimp. I may be the exception, but these have worked well for me.

reverendmaynard
03/16/2006, 10:11 AM
The cleaner wrasse may be reef safe, but the reef is not cleaner wrasse safe, unless I've got my fish mixed up. Since they only eat parasites off of fish, there are never enough to keep it healthy long term.

leebca
03/16/2006, 10:17 AM
To reverandmaynard and spoiledcats

What kind of cleaner wrasse?

reverendmaynard
03/16/2006, 10:24 AM
Like I said, I could be confusing things. I don't know for sure. From what I recall, cleaner fish in general do not make good tank inhabitants, but I could be wrong.
Cleaner shrimp, on the other hand, will eat just about anything and are good candidates for captivity, and do a decent job of keeping parasites under control. They're not likely to completely irradicate ich, but help to control it, at least on fish that will let them clean them. Most fish that are the same size or smaller than the shrimp will not allow themselves to be cleaned, IME.

spoiledcats
03/16/2006, 10:34 AM
LEE,
The one I have is Labriodes Dimidiatus. It eats mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, and the prime reef I feed the other fish. It also cleans the fish constantly, but I don't know if it gets anything off of them cause I never see anything on them. I hope the other food I feed it will keep it alive, but if you know of anything else, I would appreciate your reply.

reverendmaynard
03/16/2006, 10:44 AM
I just checked some other sources, and it seems that if you have one that is eating, you're very lucky. In general, they do not take well to eating the foods offered to them in captivity. Cleaner Gobies, or better, cleaner shrimp are more recommended.

leebca
03/16/2006, 11:42 AM
The Striped Cleaner Wrasse is blue to yellow above fading to white or yellow below. There is a black stripe from the eye to the caudal fin margin. The stripe widens posteriorly.

This is Labroides dimidiatus. The other cousin is the Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasse (Labroides hawaiiana). These fish have been caught in the wild and in aquariums to dissect their gastric intestinal tracks for analysis. Nowhere has there been found Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) in their intestinal tracks. As far as we know, they don't pick Marine Ich (MI) off the fish they service.

If you see them picking off white specs from fish, these are sometimes Lymphocystis clumps, dead flesh, a loose scale, or discolored fin.

I've been trying to get the hobby to stop bringing them into the ornamental fish trade. You see, they set up reef stations of at least 3 for cleaning fish. Fish on the reef seem to know where the stations are and frequent them. When a collector comes along, they take all the group or just leave one behind, and this destroys the station. The one left (if there is any left) can't do the job and dies from exhaustion! The fish don't get rid of their parasites and the fish in the area become heavily infected with various worms, flukes, etc.

Then, unfortunately, these wrasses are obligate parasitic eaters and very few will turn towards aquarium food. It is really a shame and, IMHO a crime to put these in our aquarium. If we just stop buying them, the demand will go down and our LFSs will stop buying them from wholesalers and wholesalers will stop buying them from collectors.

The goby, especially the Neon Blue Goby (Elacatinus oceanops) is actually known to eat Lymphocystis clumps off of fish and I keep some of them in my aquarium for this specific purpose, along with cleaner shrimp.

My FOWLR tanks are a mix of fishes from oceans/seas around the world. It's strange, but some fish will chase the cleaner goby away and other will let it pick them over; others go to the cleaner shrimp only; and still others go to both. But, since I don't let MI in my displays, their picking is only keeping my fishes groomed. My fish seem to react to it like we react to a full body massage. I think it is more psychological then actual parasitic control.

If you have a Labroides dimidiatus in your tank and its eating other foods, be sure to feed it pods, baby brine shrimp, and Cyclopeze at least once every three meals.

spoiledcats
03/16/2006, 01:17 PM
I just went home for lunch, and while there gave my fish lunch. I try to vary their diet, so this time I just fed mysis and brine. I watched and the cleaner wrasse, in fact all the fish, seem to prefer the mysis over the brine. I suppose I should put one or the other in at a time. Haven't tried cyclopeze yet, but will purchase next time I'm out. I do have pods in my tank and refugium, so maybe it eats them. It is growing, and seems healthy, but from your info, when this one goes, will not purchase another.

leebca
03/17/2006, 12:42 AM
Some other feeding tips:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

:cool: