Uh oh, did I miscalculate?

[SDguy]

So I recently filled my new 115g with water (just fresh at this point). I have the CL running (sequence hammerhead). The skimmer running (MRC 2 fed by GenX PCX-55HP), and the sump return pump (feeding the tank, the fuge, and eventually, what I thought would be an optional chiller) a panwold 100PX-X. I had a 150W ebo jager laying around, so I added that, set to 80oF. Well, I get home from work today, and decide to check the temp of the water. 85oF :eek1: :eek1: What's up with that....I thought I went through the trouble of all external pumps to avoid heat issues. Ambient room temp was about 73oF. Am I missing something?

I do have a 4" icecap fan installed in a hole in the back of the stand, which was not on....but then again, the front door to the stand wasn't closed either. And this is without the 2 - 250W DE PFO lamps running. I also have another 4" icecap which I will install in another hole in the stand.

But seriously. Are my three EXTERNAL FAN COOLED PUMPS really adding 12oF to my water??? I'm getting nervous about summer here in San Diego with no A/C. Obviously I'll get the chiller, but will that be enough?

Any thought and ideas are welcome. I will be draining out the fresh water when I add the second fan, so now's the time for major changes to be made.

Thanks.

OK wait, now I thought some more. The heater set to 80oF, so the pumps are adding 5oF to the system. Is this normal? Should I just set the heater to 75oF?

[Anemone]

A couple of questions - how accurate is your thermometer, and how accurate is the thermostat on your heater? Just because you set your ebo jager at 80 doesn't mean it's only coming on when the water gets below 80....might be coming on at 84. :D

Kevin

[piranhaking]

setting the heater lower wouldnt do anything i wouldnt think The heater runs off of a thermostat. It has no way of knowing if it heated the water or something else did. The first thing i would do is turn the heater down and let everything sit for a while. If you're impatient then you could turn everything off and float some frozen water bottles in the tank to cool it down faster. Once it cools down then run everything else with the heater either off, or set down to about 70 or so to make sure the heater's temp control isnt just inaccurate. I dont know anything about the heat put out by the pumps and stuff, but i would do the simple thing first and make sure the heater's thermostat works. A simpler option would be, if you have a smaller tank sitting around, to put the heater in another tank with the temp set the same and see how hot it gets. If the smaller tank with ONLY the heater running is also 85 instead of 80, then its just the heater dial needing to be turned down. If the smaller tank is only at 80 then you have a heat problem.

edit:: didnt mean to say the same thing as anemone, that post was made while i was in the middle of writing mine.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6895718#post6895718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anemone
A couple of questions - how accurate is your thermometer, and how accurate is the thermostat on your heater? Just because you set your ebo jager at 80 doesn't mean it's only coming on when the water gets below 80....might be coming on at 84. :D

Kevin

Well, that's the thing....I'll bring a calibrated thermometer from work tomorrow for exact readings.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6895768#post6895768 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by piranhaking
If you're impatient then you could turn everything off and float some frozen water bottles in the tank to cool it down faster.
I bought this tank Jan 2005 :lol: :lol: . I think I can wait. I turned the heater off. Will test the temp tomorrow morning before I leave for work.

[SDguy]

Crap! I woke up this morning. Heater has been off since 5pm last night. Tank is now 87.2oF :furious: . Ambient room temp is 70oF. A bucket of water sitting on the floor is 67oF. Am I really a going to have to throw a year of planning out the window??

I'm thinking turn off all but the sump return pump. Wait for the temp to stabilize. Check temp. Turn on the skimmer pump. Again check stabilized temp. Then finally turn on the CL pump. Check again to figure out which pump is adding the most heat. Do I just accept that most tanks need a heater, mine will just need a chiller instead. I have a neptune jr. so I suppose I can have it shut off the CL pump and halides (assuming they're producing most of the heat) if the water reaches a certain emergency temp so nothing ever gets cooked (from the chiller failing). Ugh, so frustrated. Any thoughts/experiences are welcome.

[GregM779]

OK, first unplug the heater, if you don't need it right now eliminate it, it shouldn't be set to 80 anyways more like 75 but I've had heaters stick on do unplug it for now. Those large pumps can add some heat but that seems like a lot. I use t clip-on fans from Walmart above my sump and have 3 fans in my canopy, this lets me get away without a chiller in Florida. Is the top covered are the lights running??

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6899766#post6899766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GregM779
OK, first unplug the heater, if you don't need it right now eliminate it, it shouldn't be set to 80 anyways more like 75 but I've had heaters stick on do unplug it for now. Those large pumps can add some heat but that seems like a lot. I use t clip-on fans from Walmart above my sump and have 3 fans in my canopy, this lets me get away without a chiller in Florida. Is the top covered are the lights running??

Canopy is on my kitchen floor, so the fans (2 - 4") are not running, but neither are the lights. I figured that's a wash. The heater has been unplugged since 5pm yesterday. I placed a large fan blowing into the stand opening on high this morning. We'll see if that brings the temp down :confused: I can't imagine what the temp would be with a covered tank with 500W of halides running. Maybe I should keep discus instead :rolleyes:

[GregM779]

don't say crazy things like that!!
do any of the pumps feel hot to the touch?? see what the fan blowing does today, it my make a bigger difference than you think, you can always put one at the surface of the tank for now until the canopy goes on.

[Craig Lambert]

Something is not right here. I have a hard time believing that 3 pumps and no lights could ad 17 degrees to the tank. I think your temp. measurement is incorrect. If not, there must be something wrong with one of those pumps.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6899969#post6899969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GregM779
don't say crazy things like that!!
do any of the pumps feel hot to the touch?? see what the fan blowing does today, it my make a bigger difference than you think, you can always put one at the surface of the tank for now until the canopy goes on.

You know, to be honest, they all feel rather warm to the touch. The sequence feels downright hot, as does the genX (though I expected this, feeding a dual becket skimmer). But I have no frame of reference for what is normal. My small tank only has mag's. Even the ones running externally feel only warm to the touch.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6899987#post6899987 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Craig Lambert
Something is not right here. I have a hard time believing that 3 pumps and no lights could ad 17 degrees to the tank. I think your temp. measurement is incorrect. If not, there must be something wrong with one of those pumps.

I'll bring a calibrated thermometer home from work today to confirm the temps.

[conda]

I'm running 2 Mag18 pumps in the sump and one Sequence Barracuda for the closed loop. I noticed the Sequence adds 2-3 degrees to the temp when running.

[Amphiprion]

To an extent, even the external pumps are water-cooled.

[xrunner1234]

Is it open top or do you have glass tops? No evaporative cooling?

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6900446#post6900446 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xrunner1234
Is it open top or do you have glass tops? No evaporative cooling?

Open top

[brian3]

How was the room temperature 70 and a bucket of water on the floor only at 67? Sounds like something is wrong with the measurements.

[imbuggin]

depending on the humidity in your area I think that amount of temp rise is possible with all those pumps on your small tank. I have 3 little gian mdxq-4 return pumps on my 300 gallon. They are definately warm to the touch and add plenty of heat to the water. If the volume were 150 instead of 330 or so I think 20 degrees would be possible. I also have a bunch of other pumps and about 2000 watts of light so I have other heat issues as well. External pumps are air/water cooled. I also keep a fan on the pumps as well as the water surface. Of course I had to get a huge chiller also, but that is another story.

also fyi...I had fixures made for my lights that would pull all the hot air out of them and shoot it down the A/C returns. That helped a lot!!

[phatstanley02]

something is out of whack somewhere. I only run 2 fans in my canopy and i have 500 watts of MH and 440 watts of VHO, 1 tunze 6000, 2 seio 1500s, 1 MJ 600, sedra 5000 from my skimmer, and a poseidon t4 external return pump (known for raising tank temps) and im easily able to keep the temp at 80-81 with no chiller (lights 10-12" off the water). I live in Louisiana the most humid place in the US and my room has an ambient temp of 69-70.

I dont think the gen-x or the panworld pumps even add heat to the water!

[SDguy]

Well, looks like I will need more information to solve this problem, since different people have different experiences. So, I will stick to my plan, and determine how much heat each pump is adding.

I guess I will also add the canopy, and get the canopy fans going to get a better idea of the whole system in operation.

And I suppose I will start chiller shopping :mad:

[imbuggin]

let me add a bit. In the winter I am able to avoid the chiller going on much if at all. I have a fan set to turn on .7 degrees before the chiller. This normally stop the raise. Otherwise the chiller kicks on. If temps still rise past a point than lights start to turn off.

I know my 3 little giant 4mdxq pumps add lots of heat. I also have these pumps and don't think added they give off as much as the return pumps and they are internal:

3 tunze stream 6100
1 seo 1500
1 seo 2500
3 mag 7's 2x internal 1 external
1 maxijet 1200
30 watt uv light (adds heat)

my only other thought would be that for one reason or another the pumps are having trouble moving. Have you made sure there is no sand or anything in them. Have you oiled them? Are the fans on them runninh?

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6901462#post6901462 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by imbuggin
let me add a bit. In the winter I am able to avoid the chiller going on much if at all. I have a fan set to turn on .7 degrees before the chiller. This normally stop the raise. Otherwise the chiller kicks on. If temps still rise past a point than lights start to turn off.

I know my 3 little giant 4mdxq pumps add lots of heat. I also have these pumps and don't think added they give off as much as the return pumps and they are internal:

3 tunze stream 6100
1 seo 1500
1 seo 2500
3 mag 7's 2x internal 1 external
1 maxijet 1200
30 watt uv light (adds heat)

my only other thought would be that for one reason or another the pumps are having trouble moving. Have you made sure there is no sand or anything in them. Have you oiled them? Are the fans on them runninh?

Thanks for the input. There is nothing but fresh water in the tank...no sand. The pumps don't require oiling, and are brand new. Their fans are running. I will email the manufacturers to ask exactly how hot to the touch these pumps should be.

[Jeremy Blaze]

Did you bring home that calibrated thermometer yet? I'd check the accuracy of your readings first.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6901887#post6901887 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
Did you bring home that calibrated thermometer yet? I'd check the accuracy of your readings first.

Well, even if the absolute values are off, the differences are probably correct, and that is my concern. Besides, just feeling the water, it feels 87. I won't be home til 5, but I have the thermometer in hand :)

[dicjones]

Just my inexperienced 2 cents. I had problems with temp until i removed my glass canopy. Even with that gone i still had a higher temp than I wanted so i aimed my return towards the water's surface to give some movement. My temp stays between 75.4 and 75.6 24 hours a day...even after adding another pump from the Coralife super skimmer.

It seems that having a bit of turbulance on the surface of the water really helps stabilize the temp...at least for me.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

I'm running 2 hammer head pumps on my 400G. One C/L and one for teh return. I also have 3 sedra 9000's submersed in my skimmer sump to feed my skimmer. Plus I'm running 400W De MH lights that cycle between teh three so it's mostly just one at a time on.

The tank is set up in my garage and it has very litle ventelation, only when I turn on some exhaust fans. The highest I've ever seen the tank get was 82 and then I turned on a couple of fans over the tank. Lately it's been running 77 which is where I have my heater set at.

If those pumps are adding heat to your tank, then there's something wrong. I'd be looking else where for the problem. Also if you can find one, use a thermoter that can retain the Max and Min temps of teh day to se what the room temp ACTUALLY is. I think you have a problem somewhere else.

[merk1_99]

All pumps whether internal or external give off heat...simple physics...Are these pumps under an enclosed stand? If so you may want to vent your stand. Also consdier putting a fan above the sump to blow across it and increase evaporation....

[xrunner1234]

For a simple test, can you aim a fan over the whole tank top to raise evaporation rates and remeasure temp in the morning? Also what is your humidity?

[SDguy]

blown63chevy - I just filled the tank. So it's literally a tank, sump, skimmer, and three pumps...nothing else....not lights, no nothing, and as of 5pm last night, no heater. So, if it's not a faulty thermometer (which unfortunately I don't think it is since it reads my small tank correctly, and as I said, the big tank's water does in fact feel very warm) then it is one or more of the pumps. My current worst fear is that even though the hammerhead manufacturer said it was fine to mount it vertically, this is somehow causing friction, creating more than a usual amount of heat.

xrunner1234 & merk1_99 - I have yet to do ANY evaporative cooling experiments. Frankly, I was hoping those would only be necessary with the lights on. I never imagined that it would already be necessary with just the pumps.

We've had rain here lately, so that, together with the new aquarium and the old one still in the same room, is definitely causing high humidity in the room. So this could also be contributing to the heat.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

HMM. interesting. Both of my pumps are mounted horizonatly. Yea we've had the rain here as well. But still, even during the hot days we had last year, all I did was turn on some exhaust fans in the garage and a couple of small fans to blow across the tank and it kept it cool.

I know we are usually a little cooler than you guys but not by much. Makes me wonder if the vertical mounting IS causing the extra heat. ???

It will however take a bit for the temp to go down with a large body of water. On the flip side, it should also take a bit for the temp to rise. I don't see a small heater heating up that size tank that fast.

[imbuggin]

or try running 2 of 3 pumps for a day see what happens, than 1 pump of 3. After you see what the temp does compared to the room temp, use 1 pump a day and see if one makes the tank much warmer than the rest.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6902705#post6902705 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by imbuggin
or try running 2 of 3 pumps for a day see what happens, than 1 pump of 3. After you see what the temp does compared to the room temp, use 1 pump a day and see if one makes the tank much warmer than the rest.

Yes, this is the current plan, before I do anything with fans. Though as mentioned, it will probably take a few days with each variation to determine what exactly is going on. Well, I waited a year to fill the tank, I suppose a week more won't kill me :rolleyes:

[SDguy]

Well, props to the cheap little coralife digital thermometer. It is dead on. So, came home today. Tank was 83.5oF with a large fan blowing directly into the open front of the stand, and the ceiling fan on. Unfortunately, I have a small sump, and evaporating 3g of water in 8 hours is not reasonable without an auto topoff system.

So, I turned off the skimmer and CL pump, leaving only the panworld sump return pump running. I'll check the temp tomorrow am and pm, and go from there, probably turning on the skimmer pump next. I'll do this with no fans, to get a baseline. Wish me luck.

[SDguy]

OK, this morning, room is 69oF. Tank is 76oF with just the Panworld sump pump running. Does this seem right? I do have the pump throddled back slightly since it is only feeding the tank and fuge. The third outlet (to the eventual chiller) is not yet finished. I'll wait and measure the temps again after work.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Hey pete, I checked my Hammerheads last night while I was in the garage. My C/L had been running since 6 that morning and my return one runs 24/7. BOTH of them were just a little warm to the touch. I could place my hand on them and keep it there all day.

So if yours are as hot as you say, then that is probably where your heat is coming from. Can you reposition them to be Horizonatal? That may help in reducing the friction. Good luck.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6908417#post6908417 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy
Hey pete, I checked my Hammerheads last night while I was in the garage. My C/L had been running since 6 that morning and my return one runs 24/7. BOTH of them were just a little warm to the touch. I could place my hand on them and keep it there all day.

So if yours are as hot as you say, then that is probably where your heat is coming from. Can you reposition them to be Horizonatal? That may help in reducing the friction. Good luck.

Thanks for the info! Good to know. Unfortunately, to have my hammerhead horizontal would mean I would have to have it outside of the aquarium stand. REALLY want to avoid this. Before I start ripping apart any plumbing, I will finish this experiment to determine how much heat each pump is adding. Thanks again for the info though...invaluable.

[Jeremy Blaze]

How much space is between the back of the pumps, ( where the fan is) and the wall, floor, or whatever?

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6908663#post6908663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
How much space is between the back of the pumps, ( where the fan is) and the wall, floor, or whatever?

As you can see in the pic, the panworld return is right in the middle, no blockage. The hammerhead is mounted to the back, about 6" clearance from it's back fan to the floor. The genx is the worst, with only a couple inches clearance from it's fan to the wall of the stand (on the right, out of view in the pic).

http://members.cox.net/sdsmartguy/full.jpg

[imbuggin]

hang on a second here. Is that cabinet completely enclosed? It looks like it has a back on it as well from the pictures? You need to vent that thing like crazy with all the equipment in there. I would cut the back off completely!!

It may just be the picture, but is that cabinet is totally enclosed that is for sure a large part of the problem!

[SDguy]

Yes, it's enclosed. However, I have yet to ever have the front door closed, as I have been running all the electrical out the front during this trial period. I have 1 and will be adding a second 4" icecap fan mounted in holes in the back of the stand. This won't be enough? Aren't they like .5 amps each?

I don't see a lot of beam support in the stand, and am not a builder, so would hesitate to make any holes that I don't need.

[Jeremy Blaze]

I'd agree that it needs t be opened up. You got a lot of equipment in that confined area, with no where for the heat to go.

[imbuggin]

well for example besides having a chiller, and fan over the tank, and system pulling heat right from the light fixtures. This uses a special fan made to work in warm areas.

I have the back of my cabinet 100% open a few inches from the wall and have a vornado fan in there. Those ice cap fans may be "ok" for a canopie not for the stand. If you want more icecap fans I have a few that I don't use anymore (get the idea). I do also have a chiller in the stand to fully disclose, but the back of it where the hot air comes out of hangs slightly out of the back of the stand and the vornado keep all the air moving well. The three fans on the return pumps do very little.

oh yeah the door on the front that is in front of the chiller is rarely ever closed.

cutting out the majority of the back should not hurt the structual integrity of the cabinet...depends how it was made. Mine is fully opened and the tank is over 2 tons

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909882#post6909882 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeremy Blaze
I'd agree that it needs t be opened up. You got a lot of equipment in that confined area, with no where for the heat to go.

OK, I'm a bit confused. And I'm taking into account imbuggin's last post too. Why would two icecap fans not be enough to exchange out the hot air? Each is rated at 50-120 CFM. Currently, one will be blowing in on the left side of the stand, the other blowing out on the right. Should I change the direction to both blow in, both blow out? I'm really not keen on cutting the back out...noise issues being one reason.

[Craig Lambert]

SDguy fwiw, I have a posieden t-2, and t-3 and the manual says to mount them horizontally. I'm wondering if the vertical mount is causing the impeller to run dry, or cavitate some of the time. Are there microbubbles entering the tank? One other question. What size sump, and how many gph will pass through it?

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6908503#post6908503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Thanks for the info! Good to know. Unfortunately, to have my hammerhead horizontal would mean I would have to have it outside of the aquarium stand. REALLY want to avoid this. Before I start ripping apart any plumbing, I will finish this experiment to determine how much heat each pump is adding. Thanks again for the info though...invaluable.

You've got what, 700w of pump in that stand? Those pumps are simply too large, and create too much heat to run inside a stand. All that energy is converted to heat, and its all going into your sump. The pumps are running hotter because your stand is hotter, adn this is being transfered directly to the tank.

[Craig Lambert]

I didn't know the total wattage, but if Rich is correct at around 700, then I would agree. That seems excessive. What is the total gph you're achieving between return and CL?

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910672#post6910672 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
You've got what, 700w of pump in that stand? Those pumps are simply too large, and create too much heat to run inside a stand. All that energy is converted to heat, and its all going into your sump. The pumps are running hotter because your stand is hotter, adn this is being transfered directly to the tank.

Well, I guess I will just add as many fans as it takes to make sure all heat exits the stand as quickly as possible.

And how is this different than cooling a canopy with 500+ watts of power in lighting, using fans?

[Jeremy Blaze]

Well, I guess I will just add as many fans as it takes to make sure all heat exits the stand as quickly as possible. [/B]

That and opening it up will probably do it.

Best of luck!

[Sullivmw]

Can you get a air temp reading inside the stand, with the door open ? If the temp is the same as the room temp, then at least you could rule out the heat from inside the stand.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910735#post6910735 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sullivmw
Can you get a air temp reading inside the stand, with the door open ? If the temp is the same as the room temp, then at least you could rule out the heat from inside the stand.

Good thought. Will do this each time I turn on another pump along with the water and room temp checks.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910692#post6910692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Craig Lambert
I didn't know the total wattage, but if Rich is correct at around 700, then I would agree. That seems excessive. What is the total gph you're achieving between return and CL?

Well, the hammerhead is on a CL. It is rated at 5800gph. Not sure how head loss works with closed loops.

The return is a panworld 100px -x or something...don't remember off hand...rated for something like 1200gph. But, it feeds the tank, the fuge, and will feed the chiller, so really only about 300gph returning to the tank itself.

Didn't think this was over the top....

Don't people cool 3 even 4 250W halides with 2 or 4 icecap type fans in canopies?

[rustybucket145]

I personally don't think that two icecap fans are enough to ventilate your stand. I would reccomend going to walmart and purchasing their smallest fan (got one for mine $9), cutting a hole the size of the fan in the back of your stand and installing the fan and have all fans blowing inward. Everyone is right about the amount of heat that your pumps/heater/other equip are going to put off. As long as the front doors don't have seals on them the air should be able to escape easily enough to properly vent the stand. Sounds like your pump is putting off a little too much heat. However, my Iwktawi (I know that is not spelled right) is pretty hot to the touch. I have brick floors in the room my aquarium is located in so I placed the pump directly on the bricks and that seemed to dissapate the heat much better.

Well good luck, hope you find the culprit.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910879#post6910879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rustybucket145
I personally don't think that two icecap fans are enough to ventilate your stand. I would reccomend going to walmart and purchasing their smallest fan (got one for mine $9), cutting a hole the size of the fan in the back of your stand and installing the fan and have all fans blowing inward. Everyone is right about the amount of heat that your pumps/heater/other equip are going to put off. As long as the front doors don't have seals on them the air should be able to escape easily enough to properly vent the stand. Sounds like your pump is putting off a little too much heat. However, my Iwktawi (I know that is not spelled right) is pretty hot to the touch. I have brick floors in the room my aquarium is located in so I placed the pump directly on the bricks and that seemed to dissapate the heat much better.

Well good luck, hope you find the culprit.

Thanks, yes, I will do something similar. I only mention icecap fans since I have two that I got cheap used. Any new purchases will be cheap walmart fans. So you suggest all blowing in?

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910838#post6910838 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Don't people cool 3 even 4 250W halides with 2 or 4 icecap type fans in canopies?
Often with part of the back or top open ... and the hot air can vent upward. In the stand ... nowhere `up' to go ...

I too would consider venting the stand well.

[imbuggin]

my last bit of advice and than I will leave you alone. I would not get a cheap 9$ fan from walmart. You will be replacing it very often. Pay the 30$ and get a vornado or similar. It will Move more air, it is quieter and will last at least 3 times as long. I would have one blowing in and one blowing out if possible.

[know-it-all]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910838#post6910838 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Well, the hammerhead is on a CL. It is rated at 5800gph. Not sure how head loss works with closed loops.

The return is a panworld 100px -x or something...don't remember off hand...rated for something like 1200gph. But, it feeds the tank, the fuge, and will feed the chiller, so really only about 300gph returning to the tank itself.

Didn't think this was over the top....


:eek1: :eek1: :rollface: :eek1: :eek1:
7000 gph on a 90

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6912208#post6912208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by know-it-all
:eek1: :eek1: :rollface: :eek1: :eek1:
7000 gph on a 90

Actually 5800gph from the CL assuming no loss (doubt that considering the amount of elbows) + 300gph sump return to tank on a 115g (30" tall) tank....not horribly excessive.

OK, tank is at 71.5oF. Will check once more tomorrow am, then turn on the genx skimmer pump and see how much it rises.

imbuggin - all advice and input is very welcome :D . I will keep all posted through this thread. It's funny, one year of planning, and I miss something as simple as heat production from pumps. Sometimes you just have to mess up to learn I guess :rolleyes:

[piranhaking]

thats only 53Xflow rate. I have 66X flow rate on my tank:P (only a 10 gallon though, 3 100gph hob filters and 4 90gph pumps from whisper internal filters being used as powerheads. The pumps are in all 4 corners of the tank and opposite corners come on at the same time to swirl the water. the two sets alternate every hour and are both on at some times during the day)

[SDguy]

OK, thursday am. Tank is 70.1oF. Room is 28oF. Inside the stand is also 68oF. All these temp readings since I started with just the one panworld pump on, have been with one icecap fan in the back of the stand, blowing out (this is how I originally put it on - will switch it around if need be), and the door to the front of the stand propped up against the opening, so only leaving about a 2" gap along the top of the opeing. So far, so good. Turning on the GenX skimmer pump now. Will see what happens when I get home from work today.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Glad to see your taking a methodical look at this. One thing at a time and check results and compare before moving on. Good work. ;)

And good luck.

[imbuggin]

glad to help hope you get it solved.

as far as flow like people are talking about. I think I push around 18,000-22,000 GPH in my 300 if my math is correct and I would like more flow.

And this may make you feel better also. No matter how hard you plan you will miss something. My big heat problem is the ventilation. My stand is so well vented that when the chiller is on all the heat is pushed right out of the stand. Unfortunately that is right on my houses thermostat. So in the summer My AC runs 24/7 even with it set at 78 degrees.

IT is and always will be something in this hobby. When everything is running smooth is when I get nervous, because you know you are just waiting for the next "thing"

[rooroo]

Hey,

I know it seems the PanWorld pump isn't adding the heat. But you were talking about your pumps being hot to the touch earlier... I have a PanWorld, and when it's operating, its not hot to the touch. It's warm, but not so warm I can't keep my hand on it. When the impeller was a little clogged, it got noisy and was downright hot to the touch.

The throttling might have something to do with the heat on your pump. You should avoid throttling it at all costs. It's better to split the return between your tank and your sump with a ball valve that you can adjust the amount of water going between your tank and sump. Just put a T on your return with a small section of PVC back to the sump. Put the ball valve on the section of PVC going back to the sump. Try to put it where the overflow dumps the water into the sump so you don't get extra microbubbles.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6916732#post6916732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rooroo

The throttling might have something to do with the heat on your pump. You should avoid throttling it at all costs. It's better to split the return between your tank and your sump with a ball valve that you can adjust the amount of water going between your tank and sump. Just put a T on your return with a small section of PVC back to the sump. Put the ball valve on the section of PVC going back to the sump. Try to put it where the overflow dumps the water into the sump so you don't get extra microbubbles.

Throttling the output of a pressure rated pump (or any pump in general) is EXACTLY the same as running it against higher head.

Throtting the input of a pump, is a BAD idea, and will cause cavitation, pumps running hotter, all sorts of issues.

Splitting the flow back to the sump is unnecessary, and based on urban legend.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6916732#post6916732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rooroo
Hey,

I know it seems the PanWorld pump isn't adding the heat. But you were talking about your pumps being hot to the touch earlier... I have a PanWorld, and when it's operating, its not hot to the touch. It's warm, but not so warm I can't keep my hand on it. When the impeller was a little clogged, it got noisy and was downright hot to the touch.



Actually, the panworld was the only pump of the three that was NOT hot to the touch. And, it's only throttled back because the third outlet which will eventually feed the chiller is not connected yet. Once it is, even without a chiller but just a loop, the pump will not be throttled back at all.

[SDguy]

OK, tank is 71oF But room was only 66oF since I left the windows slightly open and it was COLD here today (well, cold for SD anyways). 68oF inside the stand. I'll check again in the morning after keeping the windows closed all night. But, so far, so good.

[SDguy]

Tank this morning is 74.5oF. Room is 67.1oF. Inside stand is 70oF. OK, so already one fan is not keeping up with the heat. I already have a second to install. Was thinking at least a couple more. What do you guys think about these:

http://www.pctoys.com/840556001058.html

And why is this one so much cheaper? Specs look the same:

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/CF-152/220100/HIGH-VELOCITY_12VDC,_120MM_FAN_W_SCREEN_.html

[SDguy]

OK, here are the results of my experiment. All temps in F. I began with just the Panworld return sump pump running. Also, the stand door was almost fully closed (2" strip opening along the top). And one 4" icecap fan mounted in the back top right blowing out:

DATE................TANK...............ROOM..............STAND

3-8-06pm_______71.2__________68.0___________68.9

3-9-06am_______70.1__________68.0___________67.1

turn on GenX skimmer feed pump

3-9-06pm_______71.5__________66.2___________68.0

3-10-06am______74.5__________67.1___________69.8

3-10-06pm______74.8__________67.1___________70.7

3-11-06am______74.6__________66.2___________70.7

turn on closed loop hammerhead

3-11-06pm______81.7__________68.9___________70.7

3-12-06am______82.0__________68.0___________70.7

So, it seems that stand ventilation is in fact NOT the problem. The pumps themselves actually add this heat directly to the water. I guess the GenX shouldn't surprise me, since it is a pressure rated pump, but come on, that's a lot of heat! What do you all think?

Mind you, this is with no canopy, so no lights, but also no fans up top. Clearly I'll need a chiller. Size suggestions? I'm OK with a constant temp of 83oF for my tank when all is said and done. My current tank runs about that....no problems.

[Stile2]

Just my .02

I have read about several people running Sequence pumps that have heat issues.

The gen-x pump is adding 3-4 degrees, but the hammerhead seems like it is the main heat provider. I know how money can be setting up a tank, but have you considered a different pump. Although I don't know of another pump that pumps 5800 gph.

Good Luck with the heat.

Keith

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6936778#post6936778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stile2
Just my .02

I have read about several people running Sequence pumps that have heat issues.

I know how money can be setting up a tank, but have you considered a different pump. Although I don't know of another pump that pumps 5800 gph.

Good Luck with the heat.

Keith

Calfo mentioned to me before that Japanese Iwaki pumps impart less heat than sequence, but they only max at 2000gph, so I'm at a loss. Before anyone suggests it, I REALLY REALLY DO NOT want any sort of PH, tunze, inside the tank. Just my aesthetic preference. I'd rather get the chiller :)

[Stile2]

I completely agree with the NO POWERHEAD stance. That's way we spent so much on the CL setup. Right?

Are you going to run BareBottom? And what animals are you planning to keep?

If you are not going BB, I would be worried about running that many gph, sand storms, etc.

Keith

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6936859#post6936859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stile2
I completely agree with the NO POWERHEAD stance. That's way we spent so much on the CL setup. Right?

Are you going to run BareBottom? And what animals are you planning to keep?

If you are not going BB, I would be worried about running that many gph, sand storms, etc.

Keith

Actually, I do plan on having sand. The high GPH were necessary because it is a 30" tall tank. The CL has 10 outlets, so it's pretty spread out....just enough to get the water flowing up and down this tall tank.

I plan on a mixed reef like the one I have now. Very few SPS...just some hardy ones.

[Stile2]

You're probably not going to like my next suggestion. :D But it is meant with all best intentions.

Get a OceansMotions 4 way, a smaller pump, such as PanWorld 200PS, drill a couple of holes for bulkheads at the bottom of the back glass.

That way you won't have to worry about getting water all the way from the top to the bottom 30" down.

Here is the back of my new 77 gallon.
http://zenmods.com/newtank2/bulkheadsCL.jpg

Here you can see that one of the outputs from the OM going to the bottom bulkhead.
http://zenmods.com/newtank2/majorplumbing.jpg
Since taking this picture I changed out the CL pump to a Pan World 100PX-X.

Not sure this will help, as it is NOT the cheap route. But I think it would solve your heat issues while providing enough flow.

Keith

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6937233#post6937233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stile2
You're probably not going to like my next suggestion. :D But it is meant with all best intentions.

Get a OceansMotions 4 way, a smaller pump, such as PanWorld 200PS, drill a couple of holes for bulkheads at the bottom of the back glass.

That way you won't have to worry about getting water all the way from the top to the bottom 30" down.

Here is the back of my new 77 gallon.


Here you can see that one of the outputs from the OM going to the bottom bulkhead.

Since taking this picture I changed out the CL pump to a Pan World 100PX-X.

Not sure this will help, as it is NOT the cheap route. But I think it would solve your heat issues while providing enough flow.

Keith

1. All suggestions are always welcome. Posting a question on RC and wanting only a specific answer is a sign you won't last long in this hobby, IMO :D

2. You're right....that's going to cost me! :eek1:

3. I will never be comfortable making holes that far down in a tank. The idea of having to drain the whole thing to service the bulkhead, for whatever reason, just doesn't sit well with me.

4. I only have 4.5" clearance between the tank and the wall, and would really prefer to keep it that way.

What I think I will do is add one more fan in the stand. Add a couple more in the canopy (totaling 4). This will cause significant evaporation and some more cooling. The money I would spend on a new pump and OM will be spent on a double floatswitch system, peristaltic pump, and reservoir to counter the evaporation. The chiller was already on the shopping list, so no extra $urprise there.

That said, I do believe you are correct, that your suggestion would lower my heat, and solve the flow issue too. It's just not the direction I want to take right now. The beauty of my CL, however, is that, if in a year, the heat really is too much, I can remove the whole thing without draining the tank, and switch to your suggestion.

[SDguy]

Thought I'd share a few facts for anyone interested. First, my tank water actually reached 85oF :eek1: . I've been in corresdondance with MDM, the manufacturer of the Hammerhead. Very nice and helpful. Some major points:

1. The pump will actually run better mounted vertically. Good to know.

2. The fan in the back is designed to draw air in and blow it over the motor (both inside and ouside the housing).

3. The only way to transfer heat to the water from the motor is via the shaft (which you can actually look at and touch through openings before the volute).

It seems my problem was that even though the temp inside the middle of the stand was about that of the ambient room temp, the temp of the air right under the hammerhead which was being drawn into it was 7oF higher (from the other pumps I assume). Bingo! So I added ventilation via fan right to that spot. The tank was 79.5 after 24 hours like this. Other tips from MDM were to actually blow air specifically into the shaft openings, for more cooling. Finally, if all else fails, throttling the pump back (on the outlet side of course) will reduce heat, though also lower flow.

We'll see what the final temp stabilizes at after a couple days. Who knows, maybe this tank will actually have SALTwater in it before it's two years old!! :rolleyes:

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Thanks for the update. Sounds like you got some good info from MDM. Glad to hear they were willing to help. Also glad to hear that the mounting position IS NOT critical and that it actually works beter mounted vertical.

Good luck and get some salt in that thing. :D

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6901981#post6901981 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy
I'm running 2 hammer head pumps on my 400G. One C/L and one for teh return. I also have 3 sedra 9000's submersed in my skimmer sump to feed my skimmer. Plus I'm running 400W De MH lights that cycle between teh three so it's mostly just one at a time on.

The tank is set up in my garage and it has very litle ventelation, only when I turn on some exhaust fans. The highest I've ever seen the tank get was 82 and then I turned on a couple of fans over the tank. Lately it's been running 77 which is where I have my heater set at.


Hey blown63chevy, I was just going over one of your previous posts ^^ . Can you explain a bit more how your equipment runs? Did you mean that only either the MH, or sequences, or skimmer are on at a time? I didn't quite get that. And what does yous garage temp run at? Thanks.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Yea now that iread it, it's a bit confusing.

I have a swimming pool canister filter on a C/L run by one hammerhead. It's on from 8 am til 9 pm.

The sump return Hammerhead runs 24/7 along with the sedras for the skimmer.

For lights, I have three 400W DE MH lights on electronic ballast. times are

9am # 1 MH on.
1230 # 2 MH on
2pm # 1 MH off
3pm # 3 MH on
530 pm # 2 MH off
8 pm # 3 MH off.

I also run 220W PC atinic from 8 - 930 am and 730 - 9 PM.

I've got two powerheads in my sump. One just to break up the surface water and one feeds my Calc reactor. I also have a Iwakia 30 running the reactor but don't think that adds any heat to the system.

My garage will vary in temp from 60 at night to 90 on a hot day. I have a temp controller that runs my heaters and a couple of fans. For the most part, the temp runs between 77 and 80. The fans are set up to blow into the tank, not the sump. They come on when the temp hits 79 which it hasen't done lately.

Tank is 400G and 3' deep. Total system actual volume is about 550 G.

I also have a exhaust fan on avent in the garage that I turn on when it gets really hot. But it just blows in so the excess heat has to find it's way out thru a low vent or around the door seals. i do open up the garage door in the evening and on weekends because I'm usually in there.

When I move it into the room, I'm planning on putting in two exhaust fans near the top of the tank to blow out of the room to the outside. I'm also looking into running a light mover over the tank and only run two of the MH vice three or four.

[Stile2]

Glad you got the temp down. Let us know how it stabilizes.

Keith

[zemuron114]

i think the 5800 gph pump is overkill. You really dont need that much flow. I think a sequence 4300 would be perfect for your application... It is more then enough flow. I use one now as a return to 5 55 gallon tanks, and i have to cut it back some... it will be used to feed 8 eventually, and then maybe 4 more :)

you may want to try it out. I think it would put you right around 78 degrees if you ditch the 5800 !

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6979395#post6979395 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stile2
Glad you got the temp down. Let us know how it stabilizes.

Keith

Thanks Keith. Yeah, it looks like it's settling around 78oF.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6979562#post6979562 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114
i think the 5800 gph pump is overkill. You really dont need that much flow. I think a sequence 4300 would be perfect for your application... It is more then enough flow. I use one now as a return to 5 55 gallon tanks, and i have to cut it back some... it will be used to feed 8 eventually, and then maybe 4 more :)

you may want to try it out. I think it would put you right around 78 degrees if you ditch the 5800 !

I really like a lot of flow. But I know what you mean. Like I said, if all else fails, MDM suggested I throttle down the outlet....less heat, less power, less flow.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Peter,
What about a lower flowing pump and installing eductors on the returns in the tank to increase the flow. I just did that on a 72 G bowfront I picked up this weekend. Got a Rio 32 for a return pump, 1500 GPH and ran 2 eductors on the output in the tank. Adds some serious flow without the extra heat. Just an Idea. ;)

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6996723#post6996723 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blown63chevy
Peter,
What about a lower flowing pump and installing eductors on the returns in the tank to increase the flow. I just did that on a 72 G bowfront I picked up this weekend. Got a Rio 32 for a return pump, 1500 GPH and ran 2 eductors on the output in the tank. Adds some serious flow without the extra heat. Just an Idea. ;)

Yes, that's an idea. I'm going to make the final decision once all lights, canopy, fans etc are in play...we'll see what the temp ends up being. Thanks for the ideas.

[SDguy]

Just to finish off this thread in case anyone uses it...

So this is what I ended up with:

Two 4" fans blowing into the canopy. The entire back of the canopy is open. Three 4" fans blowing into the stand (one directly onto the back fan of the hammerhead). Multiple holes in the other side of the back of the stand for the hot air to escape. On the hottest day of the summer (well over 90F), with all equipment running, and all the fans on, the tank hit around 89F. So then I knew I needed a chiller that only had to pull down about 7-8 degrees F on the hottest of days.

Even if the chiller fails, my tank will never hit a deadly temp. Also, the Neptune Jr. is set to turn off MH lights at a certain point, and alarm at another.

[Stile2]

Glad you got it squared away.

Do you have a link to pictures, etc?

[SDguy]

I just continued this thread with the new tank. Not sure I have pics of the fans per se, but most of it at least:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=756593