HELP!! I've got ICK!!

[StupidsReef]

Ok I've got a Royal Gramma that has ICK. This is completely my fault because I didn't use a QT tank. That's my fault and I guess I get what I deserve :( I went to the Forums and have been reading the FISH DISEASE forums on Ick. From what I understand there really is only about 3 options I have here.

1) Capture this fish and flush it. ( NOT what I want to do)

2) Capture ALL my fish place them in a QT tank and Hyposalinty them. (Very slowly dropping salinity to 1.009 while maintaining near perfect water parms with a temp of 81* to 83* for at least 72 days)

3) Or just letting this go and see if the fish can defeat the disease on there own. (Can happen, but 99% of the time never happens)

From what I understand NONE of the methods actually kill or defeat the disease ICK, just keep it undercontroll to a point( From what I've read, I don't know this to be a fact). I have three fish in this tank.

1) Royal Gramma

2) Maroon Clown

3) Yellow Tang

Water parms are:

1) Salinity 1.025
2) nitrite 0 ppm
3)Nitrate 0 ppm
4) ammonia 0 ppm
5)ph 8.3
6)calcium 380 (a little low I know )
7) Iron 0.0
8)Phosphate 0.5

I'm an invert man. I'm not big on the fish. I've only had inverts other than 3 clowns I got from Kathy ( Which I gave to my best friend for his new SW tank before I bought these). Which was doing fine. But last weekend I bought the other three fish from LSF's. 2 of them from one LSF & 1 from other. The one who has ICK was from the store where I bought the 2 from so I'm sure the Yellow tang has ICK as well. Has anyone here ever had to fight this disease?? I also have 1 Cleaner Shrimp, I've heard they could up. Is that true?? When I QT these fish should I place the Cleaner Shrimp in the QT tank with them?? Or would the slow drop in salinity be fatal to him?? I've fought ICK with my wife's FW tank and it wasn't a pretty fight. But this is completely different and I must admit, I don't really know just what to do :confused:
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance
Mike.

[tetra9999]

the shrimp would die from the low salinity as well as from the copper treatment used to kill the ick

[Arsenal11]

mike, i had several ick problems early in this hobby, about a year ago, now i run a uv sterlizer & have had no problems since, can you catch the fish & do a freshwater dip on them?I found that a freshwater dip & a cleaner shrimp can take care of the problem but im sure others on here have more knowlage of this problem.

[StupidsReef]

Well I'll have to catch them, I can't just let them die. I'll have to break down the tank, due to they keep hidding in the rock when the net or a bag hits the water. I thought about the fresh water dip, But the Ick would still be present in the tank. And they'd get it again so I've read. But I don't know if thats true, so I thought I'd ask. I'll try any though. How long do I dip them? And do I dip in RO/DI water or tap??

[StupidsReef]

tetra, I don't want to use anything with copper. I've read a lot of bad things about copper and SW. Again I've only read not tried.

[Letmegrow]

Have no fear !

Use Kent RxP, I have used it, it is reef safe, I have used it as low as a 1/3 does and it cured ich in 36 hours.

It's common for new fish to show ich because of the stressful tank switch. You could have a fish in QT for a year and if it gets freaked out it will have ich spots in no time.

Also since one fish has ich it does not mean that the rest of them will. The best way to avoid ich is to make sure that no fish are stressed or threatend by the new fish. Equally if not more importantly make sure all of your fish are eating their natural diets/diet substitutes, IE Tangs get their veggie / and Cardinals get their meaty bits. With otu the proper diet it's really hard to avoid negative health issues with fish. Make sure your water quality is not the stress cause or issue in your tank too !

The only way to be almost 90% positive you do not get ich in your display is to get a UV sterilizer. Now don't fly out the door to get one, I feel that they kill more benificial things you want in your system. They also cost alot in the long run to operate.
If you had a fish only tank, I would reccomend one, reef tanks, not so much.

[Letmegrow]

Never use Hyposalinity in a display tank - EVER,

I am not a fan of Fresh water dipping unless the fish is absolutly LOADED with parasites. If you do, make sure pH is 8.2ish and the temp is 80F. Also before you put the fish back in the tank have a bucket of aquarium water from your tank with a big squeeze of Stress Coat in it, very important, so the fish can get it's slime on and it reduces some ammonia from when you litterally scared the pee out of it. Once the sick fish soaks in there for a couple of mins, put it back in the display.
I would always do this with the lights off in the room and in the tank.

[Arsenal11]

Mike usually 3 min or so on the fw dip, i use ro water at the same temp as my tank water & I (the guy with much less if any knowlage of saltwater) would disagree with peewee (hey that rimes) i think my uv was my best investment as i have had zero problems with my fish since hooking it up.

[StupidsReef]

Yes Letmegrow, we have chadded before about the UV units and agreed that I didn't really want to use one. The tang has both frozen veggies and the sheets. What is this RxP stuff and where do I get it??

[Letmegrow]

It's a reef safe medication for Ich, I can't tell you within the rules of RC where to get it.

The tang should be fine then, also try the Formula 2 spirulina flakes made by Ocean Nutrition.

Let me add that I do like the idea of UVS on occasions like this, where you run it for a week on an Ich scare, then shut it off when the terror alert turns to lavender.

[Arsenal11]

steve, i run mine 24/7 am i killing good bacteria? If so i guess i could shut it down as i plan on adding no more fish, i have just had no outbreaks of anything since adding it so i keep running it. Corals all seem to be doing well.

[Letmegrow]

You are missing out on, Phyto and Zooplankton(pods). I imagine bacteria too. Also benificial algaes like coraline.

With all the fish you have Kurt, it is probly not a bad idea to run yours every so often to make sure no one gets it. You will generate ALOT of goodies with the size tank and sump you have that will never make it to the UV, so you could go 24/7 or occasionaly, it would be a good test to see if you notice a diff. But I would rather see you error on the side of caution and not get any of the awesome monsters you have sick.

[Arsenal11]

Steve the uv kills pods, hate to see how many id have with no uv, im guessing that 1/3-1/2 of my water misses the uv? & i dose dt's 3-4x week, agramilk 2x week & feed oyster eggs 2x week so am i good?

[Letmegrow]

It kills pod babies, and probly copepods, I doubt it would get an adult amphipod.

The DT's when passed through will be nuked, rememebr that any plankton or larvae going through will die.

Argamilk is fine. Oyster Eggs usually get consumed IMMEDIATLY - that stuff is awesome stuff.

I think your system is fine, just a little cleaner than most peoples ? I would be more concerned about keeping up on nutrient export via water changes and skimming (which you do) than what you kill with the UV.

[Freed]

Letmegrow, where did you learn your interesting knowledge of ich and what causes it and how it thrives and spreads?

[Arsenal11]

imike sorry on highjacking your thread, steve actually been getting better on the water change, did 2 100gal in the last month & now the canyo problem is gone & all seems to be doing well, thanks for the help. & the new skimmer is awsome!

kurt

[Letmegrow]

6 years of keeping tanks ?

I know the whole ich cycle from begining to end, so if that's your point I am way passed that.

[Letmegrow]

You're very welcome Kurt.

I do not think Freed has confidence in me.

[leebca]

StupidsReef:

Your premise that you have only 3 options is incorrect. Let me begin there. Your items 1) and 3) though tempting, are of course irresponsible reefkeeping. I certainly don't know you, maybe you are or maybe you aren't. You took at least some time to inquire and investigate, so I'm assuming you are, for the most part, a responsible aquarist.

The item 2) is incomplete. There are at least 4 different means of defeating Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). If you want the facts, please read this two-part article:
Steven Pro’s article on Marine Ich (Part 1):
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm
(Part 2):
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

There's too much detail to go into for a post, but your options are outlined above.

There are no miracle cures, and the so-called 'reef safe' cures are not documented with data and experiments to show they work. Some people think they do; scientists know better.

No matter what legitimate choice you make for treatment, all the fish need to be removed from your display for treatment.

Your statement of 'keeping Marine Ich (MI) under control' isn't true. You have much yet to learn of this disease. The 4 methods I alluded to above, either KILL MI, or keep the fish from becoming re-infected.

Have I fought this disease? I have had marine aquariums since 1968. I have studied MI at OSU for three years. During the time I obtained my degree in Microbiology and degree in Chemistry at OSU, I conducted experiments with MI including treatments involving garlic, antibiotics, dips, and nutrition. Since 1970, and over 1,000 fish later, I have not had MI in my display tanks. I have though, fought it fairly routinely in my QTs. It is an insidious lifeform, but if you understand it, it is easily defeated AND easily preventable from getting into your display tank.

Cleaner shrimp go through a lot of motions, but they have never been shown to actually control a MI outbreak nor stop this organisms death march. This is scientific fact. But, you'll always find aquarists who swear they saved their fish.

Since inverts are not affected by MI, they (e.g., your shrimp)remain in the display tank. Also, inverts are harmed by some of the possible treatment options. The display tank must go at least 8 weeks fishless. With no fish around, MI dies off. BUT, do not add anything to the tank during this time (even inverts) that might carry the disease in the water they come in or that might be attached, riding in as hitchhikers.

You'll find most the quarantine information you need here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.htm

And, in the Fish Disease Treatment Forum, where I spend most of my time, you'll find threads discussing MI.

Before any steps are taken, you must be sure of your diagnosis.

Good luck!

[Freed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6906645#post6906645 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Letmegrow


I do not think Freed has confidence in me.

I don't have confidence in your methods/procedures.

[Reefer Wannabe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6908849#post6908849 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
I don't have confidence in your methods/procedures.

Do you have different advice, or just come in to stir the pot?

[Letmegrow]

Thanks for letting me know, I will tell you first when I have my first fish die of Ich.

Keep those helpful post coming.

[Freed]

My advice would be the same as the post above my previous one. Thanks for asking.

[Freed]

Reefer Wannabe, do you have any advice or did YOU just come in to stir the pot?

[MayoBoy]

There are no miracle cures, and the so-called 'reef safe' cures are not documented with data and experiments to show they work. Some people think they do; scientists know better.

If there are no documentation and experiments how can you "know better"?

Doesn't sound terribly scientific...

[Letmegrow]

Freed, do you have any advice or did YOU just come in to stir the pot ?
I know you are but what am I ?

[Freed]

I'm not here to play your PeeWee crap. I first only asked a question and then you made a statement which I replied to. I then stated that my regimen would be the same as above my previous post. That is my answer to your question. Now it is your turn to own up to scientific fact and learn from it. Now I can only hope the original poster can weed out the garbage and use the scientific facts to his/her fishs benefit.

[sirreal63]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909302#post6909302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
Reefer Wannabe, do you have any advice or did YOU just come in to stir the pot?


Dude...have more courtesy than to troll in a local enthusiasts forum. Were you not raised to have dignity, manners and grace?

[Freed]

Uh, the question was posed to me first so, uh, yeah, evidently you can't read and absorb information.

[Nanook]

[flamealert]

PM sent.

[zt444a]

Wasn't this a post about StupidsReef and the ick problem? Not about who knows the most about what.

I have not been at the saltwater/reef hobby long at all, did alot of freshwater keeping, but the one thing I have learned is there is more than one way to do something.

Freed: On the subject of procedures and methods, I know Letmegrow. He's a stand-up guy, if a bit opinionated. He is only speaking about what he has had success with, methods he has used, again successfully. Can you offer something in the way of knowledge? I personally have used some of the "reef-safe" products Letmegrow refered to, and I did not have an issue with anything dying, but that was me.

I think everyone here made it clear there are options, but that you should do something.

Leebca: Quite the impressive resume. How do companies advertise their products as "reef-safe" and "Cures MI" if no research has been done? Couldn't that lead to a lawsuit of some sort?

:confused:

Kurt: Give Stupidsreef his thread back! :D

[JxMetal]

Now don't make me have to bring back the internet police!

http://www.thebluething.com/img/internet-soldier.jpg

[sirreal63]

And you little man are trolling in a local forum...did I miss the invitation of your wisdom here?

Have some dignity and bow out nicely please.

[leebca]

Mayoboy,

Asyou properly quoted, I wrote: There are no miracle cures, and the so-called 'reef safe' cures are not documented with data and experiments to show they work..

There is data and experimentation but none that show they work.

[zt444a]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909430#post6909430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Letmegrow
I know you are but what am I ?

An all-time classic...:smokin:

[Freed]

I don't care what forum this is in the slightest. The original poster was asking for help and was getting some very IFY help at that. I will "TROLL" in any forum I choose to troll in as you call it. Hopefully the original poster will weed out the useless information like I said earlier and use it to his benefit. Sounds like some people are close minded and unwilling to learn from outsiders and will only take their own friends advice even if it is a bit shoddy.

[dynamitedj]

What is strange about all of this is that this little parasite has all of us higher level beings so confused as to how to deal with it effectively almost to the point that we have to get rid of each other. The question is how do we get rid of it? We need 1 clear-cut method that works not many that might work. It is our fault that the ICK has taken over.

[Freed]

Please reread Leebca's post. That is a sure fire way and has been proven and documented.

[sirreal63]

Ok...but you did not offer to help, give your insight or anything. You merely questioned someone else's input. Anyone can be a critic...you were not helping, only causing trouble. I am deeply sorry you do not see the difference. Please pick up your toys and bad attitude and go elsewhere if you are not going to help.

[leebca]

zt44a,

"Reef safe" is not defined. What is 'reef safe' in one reef is not 'reef safe' in another reef.

Steven Pro has presented data on so called 'reef safe' additives. You may want to read his article on the subject. He exposed several 'reef safe' products to pulsating xenia. Some had no affect, others killed it outright, and still others killed it slowly.

The reason why they are not sued is just because of the facts that 1) no one bothers, and 2) there is no standard definition of reef safe, and 3) no one takes the time and expense to challenge them. Our hobby is riddled with people and organizations just wanting to make money and they make claims on the thinnest of information.

As I pointed out to Mayoboy, you've misread what I wrote. I wrote there were no experiments done to show they worked, I didn't say there were no experiments conducted. :)

Scientific investigation requires a control, placebo, following directions, multiple specimens, etc. And then whether the project fails or succeeds the trials are then repeated in other aquariums and other systems. So far, no MI cure that is 'reef safe' has been shown to consistently cure MI more or less than what the fish were able to do on their own.

You may wish to read of another side to the picture:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=754008

[Freed]

How is asking a question causing trouble? Please explain this.

[MayoBoy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909548#post6909548 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
Mayoboy,

Asyou properly quoted, I wrote: There are no miracle cures, and the so-called 'reef safe' cures are not documented with data and experiments to show they work..

There is data and experimentation but none that show they work.

Then can you post links to the experiments which show that these products don't work? Kent makes strong claims of their product and if there is evidence that they are selling snake oil, it should be brought to the public's attention.

[sirreal63]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909627#post6909627 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
How is asking a question causing trouble? Please explain this.

If you need an explanation...you wouldn't understand.




Lee...thanks for providing some insight and some actual help. It is appreciated. I have read that study before but couldn't remember where.

[Reefer Wannabe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909627#post6909627 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
How is asking a question causing trouble? Please explain this.

I think it was the "tone", along with the fact that you shot down someone else's advice and didn't offer any other advice. Remember: we all know each other here. We don't know you.

Advice and helpful links from another non-St. Louis person was read and welcomed.

[Letmegrow]

You did not offer any information to learn from, as where I did.

Why wait for a scientist to give you the thumbs up ?
Smoking kills, period, but people still do it.
If you don't trust my success then don't do it.
Trolling is lame, and especially when in the past trolling and picking at someones post and not offering anything back is the reason why some of the experts left this site, which in IMHO has led to a degradation to the quality of this site over all.

Im glad for the SEASL forum, where there is little flaming on people who share. (Just those who take and don't give back !)

[Freed]

I alone am the one that asked Leebca to join in and share the scientific facts that she is fully knowledgeable in. I have used her wisdom and it has worked. Thank you Leebca

[sirreal63]

That makes it all better. :rolleyes:

I am still confused as to what your snide and unwelcomed comments were all about then?

If I were Lee I would be ashamed of you.


Maybe it is time for you to move on to another topic. :)

[latazyo]

first of all why would any scientific institution (university) waste funds to study something for home aquarium use?

there won't be any legitimate "scientific proof"...the only "scientific" proof will be from the companies labs themselves...and they'll obviously be biased

what a silly topic, the question was answered adaquetly until freed opened up

do I also qualify as an illegal alien troller? I'll be an STL resident on August 1st

[Freed]

Please post my snide comments and then please explain and then please explain the other comments from the other members that were not warranted. Thanks.

[JxMetal]

Well here's one snide comment

Please post my snide comments and then please explain and then please explain the other comments from the other members that were not warranted. Thanks.

Why? Because you've been kindly asked to leave the conversation. Secondly, this thread is not made to talk about your comments. Take this conversation elsewhere please.

[sirreal63]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909796#post6909796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by latazyo
do I also qualify as an illegal alien troller? I'll be an STL resident on August 1st

All are welcomed here who can show some kindness, helpfulness and dignity. What Freed did was just wrong. You have been helpful and participated numerous times and that is the correct spirit.

I hope you enjoy this group and can't wait to meet you when you arrive and if you need help setting up, let us know. :-)

[saltyunderground]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909796#post6909796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by latazyo
first of all why would any scientific institution (university) waste funds to study something for home aquarium use?


Some support for university science-related programs comes from corporate funding paid to the university to preform "unbiased" research for them. Universities also make money by developing and getting patent protection on new products, including pharamceuticals, and then selling them to the private sector.

They are great places for getting research preformed and they can educate students at the same time.

[latazyo]

thanks salty, good answer

[leebca]

Sorry people. The immaturity and ignorance levels in this thread exceed my tolerance. I'm disconnecting from this thread and will not receive notices of any further posts.

I was answering StupidsReef's questions and situation. My time is more valuable than playing games.

:wavehand:

[JxMetal]

Thanks for the help and being mature Lee

[rgpennell]

Freed - The tone of your original couple of posts came across a little rude which I suspect is what got some feathers ruffled, perhaps unnecessarily. After that I think you would agree that your responses were rude but quite possibly you felt attacked and were responding in kind. Obviously you are welcome to join in any thread you wish and this group welcomes any help someone wants to offer as well as any constructive criticism.

Letmegrow and others - While the tone of Freed's original couple of posts may have come off a bit harsh I think we all need to get tougher skins and learn not to get ourselves bent out of shape quite so easily. I think everyone ought to just let this thing go.

PLAY NICE CHILDREN!

zt44a - As to your question about someone taking legal action against companies that are misrepresenting products, I will answer it by asking you a question: When have you ever heard of a company being successfully sued for false advertising? Since we were kids we have all heard about this thing called false advertising as though any effort to mislead the public were actionable but the simple reality is that is nonsense. In order to successfully sue for false advertising one has to be willing to go up against a large operation's legal team which will bury most folks with documents. Mind you that is not a problem if at the end you get compensated for it when you prevail. Unfortunately, all you will recover is what you paid for the product - something less than $10. I can assure you that I have no qualms about sueing Kent Marine or GM for that matter. But I guarantee you I'm not doing it for 1/3 of $10! :) The only time you will see false advertising being pursued is between competitors. A couple of years ago SBC had an ad campaign basically saying that Charter Cable's internet connections were slow. Charter sued in federal court to get an injunction to stop the ads. That is the type of situation where false advertising comes into play, not over these types of cases. Sorry to disillusion you about the legal system.

Rob

[Freed]

Letmegrow, where did you learn your interesting knowledge of ich and what causes it and how it thrives and spreads?

I don't have confidence in your methods/procedures.

Where is there a tone in either of these? Simple question, simple statement.

You may read any tone into them that you wish but there was none. Like I said and what is read, simple question, simple statement.

[sirreal63]

Freed....no offense meant, but you did come off in an interesting
manner, and it seems you still are. So be it. As the good lawyer pointed out we do welcome all here, but do try and present your questions in a more friendly manner and people won't come down on you. You may not have meant anything sarcastic byt this statement..."Letmegrow, where did you learn your interesting knowledge of ich and what causes it and how it thrives and spreads?" but I can assure you it was taken that way.

If you do have anything to add to the original problem please do present it, otherwise I can see this one getting more heated and locked very soon and that really doesn't help now does it?

[Freed]

I did add to the thread a couple of posts later but no one is recognizing that. Thanks.

[Im Lon 2]

Does any one have any Pop Corn!!!

[sirreal63]

lol Lonnie...I think I am done with this thread. I have already raised enough children and I am growing weary of this one. Lee already did a great job of helping and the help is appreciated.

[Nanook]

That's all folks.

Dave;)