Tunze Streams, are they really worth the money? [Archive]

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 02:01 AM

One 6000 consumes less power than 4 MJ1200s. Cleans up the number of powerheads you need within a tank and their range of controllability (vs strict on/off) was a big advantage to me. The way the flow is produced is also very different--instead of a concentrated flow from one point, it's a more gentle (albeit much more powerful) dispersed flow which is more natural imo.

In the end, it's up to you to make the call whether or not it's worth it. I wanted a lot more flow for my SPS and still would do the same over again.

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:08 AM

How much was your Tunze 6000?

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:11 AM

and why would you need 3 of them in a 90 gallon, if you had 4 maxijets, I guess the only difference would be the controller and the on/off switch and the more "gentle" current produced? Not sure I understand that if the GPH are much higher on the Tunze... but you can control the GPH right? But then whats the point... I don't know... maybe I am being stubborn, I am just trying to find the absolute reason to even think about buying this product, I want to start buying the best for my 120, because I always go for the deals and end up having to rebuy a few months later. (Not on my MJ's though, they have been with me for a while now, never had problems with them).

-Mike C. aka ZURCSREEF

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 02:13 AM

Tunze streams are generally the same price everywhere--I believe it is Tunze who sets the prices for their dealers. Right now, the 6000 is listed at about $260.

I never had a problem with my MJ1200s either. But 4 of them were not enough flow for my SPS. 3 6000s in a 90G could be considered a bit overkill, but I also wanted to have flow sourced from 3 different locations.

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:16 AM

yeah, and the 6200 is 460+, I don't know, I can't really see my self spending that much on one little product, I would rather try a closed loop, or add two more mj 1200's.... I still would like more comments from other people... maybe from other Tunze stream users...

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 02:17 AM

You might also want to consider posting to the Tunze forum.

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:20 AM

Do you think Tunze will get touchy feely considering they are a sponser?

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 02:21 AM

Btw, while I don't have all of my 6000s running at full steam in my tank (esp since I have them running on a program which turns up 2 while dialing down another), the aggregate flow produced is still much more than my 4 MJs (I have each of the 6000s running at 30-70% of 1850gph).

Tunzes are not necessary for successful reefkeeping--even more true if you aren't keeping SPS. But if you are planning to keep SPS, then flow is just about as important as light and water quality to ensuring health and maximizing growth.

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 02:23 AM

Nope--just post that you are looking for feedback. People ask opinions there from other reef aquarists regarding their experiences wrt Tunze products all the time.

phlipper84

03/08/2006, 02:25 AM

Why would you pay more? As a non-tunze user and an avid consumer of product, they are probably the only powerhead worth using in a tank. Yes they are pricey! However, I look at my closed loop; I have 4 holes plumbed through the bottom because I did not want bulkheads in the back. I have no way to anti-siphon they system, Running a Sequence + 4 Bulkheads + another 40-50 dollars worth of plumbing parts (loc-line etc....) you get the idea. Had I to do it again, I would seriously consider using them. But then again, I bought an H&S protein skimmer!

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:32 AM

I definately want to start keeping Monticaps, other montiporas and acropora and other types of SPS... I am wondering if the flow from my Little Giant MDQX 3 pump and 4 maxi jets will do in my 4x2x2 120g tank...

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:36 AM

I have 4 holes in the bototm of my tank that I drilled my self, 2 drains, 2 returns

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:39 AM

the returns are on seperate size and they are 3/4 inch pvc, then the two maxijet 1200's, which I am thining about adding two more, but have been eyeing these tunzes for a couple weeks and try to find out if they are worth it...

phlipper84

03/08/2006, 02:54 AM

I have a feeling you are going to be a little light on flow. Are you running a sump with a return pump as well?

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:58 AM

yeah, read up... I am using a MDQX 3 little giant pump at just about full GPH (using a ball valve) through two 3/4" pvc returns on each side of the tank and 2 maxi jet 1200 power heads (thinking about adding two more mj 1200's or 4?)

jman77

03/08/2006, 09:37 AM

They are.... buy you can get some MJ 900's and do the Tunze mod to them and get alot of flow for cheap. If i didn't have my tunze already i would have gone that route without a question.

I feel we are going to start seeing alot of prop driven PH's in the future. If MJ comes out with a prop driven verson of their PH's..i somehow think they will kill Tunze sells in the US.

Don't get me wrong, Tunze Streams are great...just , it's a powerhead... a darn Powerhead.. that's alot of money for a powerhead.

One thing to keep in mind... If you fry MJ 900 because of a surge or something...the replacement cost is around 16 bucks. You fry a Stream...or it's "driver" ...your out of alot of money. Any tanks i setup in the future will be with MJ's that are modded with props.

MiddletonMark

03/08/2006, 09:50 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6907050#post6907050 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ZURCSREEF
and why would you need 3 of them in a 90 gallon, if you had 4 maxijets, I guess the only difference would be the controller and the on/off switch and the more "gentle" current produced? Not sure I understand that if the GPH are much higher on the Tunze... but you can control the GPH right?
1: quality product with good service.
2: power consumption for flow produced. I don't want a high power bill - and while my LG 4-series closed-loop pump could do around the same GPH as my Tunze 6060 ... it used over 10 times the power [switching from closed loop pump to stream was visible on my power bill :)]. Multiply times the decade I'd like to be in this hobby - closed loop pumps don't pay.
3: for less wattage than a MJ1200, I can have 6 times the flow, have it controllable, and have it move the whole tank's water around. Visually - I'd rather look at one Stream vs. 6 MJ's to do the same thing.

IMO, it's hard to compare Maxijet flow and stream flow - the volume, size of output are just radically different. Even my Seio didn't make the whole tank move like my stream does.

jman77

03/08/2006, 10:17 AM

Middle ..

The MJ 1200's are not the ones to want to get for the mod.. you want to get the 900's. The power consumption of the 900s is low , around the Stream 6000's usage. The modded MJ 900 puts out 1000 + gph of wide flow.

I have 6000 streams and MJ 900's ... Streams are big... I'd rather have a modded MJ900 in the tank any day. It's alot smaller.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=717034&perpage=25&pagenumber=29

ErikS

03/08/2006, 10:23 AM

They ain't cheap & they ain't small but they are worth it. Made a maxi-jet, a tunze they ain't. Not long term reliable like a Tunze (check the threads - often "it worked for awhile.....").

But then to each his own, you can also buy a XXXXX import, slap a fart can on it & pretend you have a 5 series - same = same.

jman77

03/08/2006, 10:27 AM

I've been checking the threads.. haven't read that many problems buddy. The problems I do read are of people that didn't put together the mod correctly. Worse case you screw up the PH and your out of what.... 16 bucks ?

MJ's moded sure are not streams, but they also don't cost you hundreds of dollars...

to each their own ;)

ErikS

03/08/2006, 10:39 AM

to each their own
Yep, exactly. Maintainence issues aside wait till you encounter the tip slip from the prop and the fact that it can't even come close to moving the flow across anything but small tanks ;)

MiddletonMark

03/08/2006, 10:40 AM

If you're comparing an `non-controllable' MJ900 to a Tunze product, perhaps the 6060 powerhead would be closest.

Which is a hundred and some dollars ... if you're comparing to a 6000, IMO there is no comparison with a Seio or Maxi-mod - as there's no contollability to the MJ900, and thus comparing them is comparing apples + oranges, and ignoring all the good stuff of a Stream.

While I'm impressed with the MJ900 mod, those who rate them as `tunze-equivalent' for the most part don't run streams IMO.

I dunno, both my MJ's and my Stream are quite a few years old, all holding up. But to me, it's comparing apples + oranges.

jsbzmcdaniel

03/08/2006, 10:45 AM

The bottom line..............................You get what you pay for! I have two 6100's and a wave box on my 180. I used to run a Oceans Motions HD 4 way powered by a Sequence Dart and a Spray bar powerd from a Sequence Hammerhead. The Tunze setup is better hands down over anything I have used before. Keep in mind the resale value. How often do you see them last in the selling forum? :)

BlueCorn

03/08/2006, 10:48 AM

They seem really expensive until you buy them and put them in your tank. Then you wonder how you did without them.

jman77

03/08/2006, 11:02 AM

Look you have to keep in mind that a maxijet mod will cost you around whatâ€¦20 bucks. When the â€œdriverâ€ in one my 6000â€™s died it cost me around 80 bucks to replace just that one piece .

Iâ€™m setting up two modded mj 900â€™s in a prop tank Iâ€™m setting up and if I donâ€™t get as much flow, or have to replace a part here of there, or canâ€™t dial up/down the power on the powerhead setup,,,, guess what â€¦I donâ€™t care. I didnâ€™t spend around 800 bucks to put water movement in the tank.

Donâ€™t get me wrong, yes Tunzes are nice and I donâ€™t think you can mod a MJ to be exactly a Stream. The questions is, is a modded MJ enough of what you need for you not to get a stream?

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 11:04 AM

jman, you think you can link me to the page for the modded mj900's? I would greatly appreciate it... I want to check these out aswell as get more info on the tunze's... I am liking this thread...

BlueCorn

03/08/2006, 11:07 AM

Where the modded mjs fall down is in the controller space. Put two streams and a wavebox on a tank and then try to duplicate that flow with a couple of hacked up powerheads.....game, set, match.

ErikS

03/08/2006, 11:21 AM

The questions is, is a modded MJ enough of what you need for you not to get a stream?
IMHO - for a display tank over 3'? No.

Iâ€™m setting up two modded mj 900â€™s in a prop tank
And that from my experience is a perfect application for them.

Modded jets aren't bad, there are just some design issues that Tunze has overcome (i.e. tip slip).

jmkins

03/08/2006, 12:23 PM

zurcs -
jman put up the link in his first post on page 1. I run two of these in a 40b right now. They work great, haven't seen them on larger tanks or on a wavemaker though so I cant speak for them in that sense. Definetly happy that I did go that route, but my alternative was a couple of seios. Like everyone has said the maxi mod is more like a seio based on controllability issues. It exceeds the seio since it can be put on a wavemaker.

I'm not able to upgrade to a big tank for a couple of years but when I do I will likely go with the vortech pump from icecap (or a DIY version of a pump like it). There really does seem to be a switch towards more prop based powerheads or it seems there will be in the near future. The beta testers on this pump all seem to like it. I think it is available this month or next to the public. The only downside to this pump for now is the lack of controller. It is supposed to be in the pipeline though. If you have the patience you may want to wait and hear what people have to say over the next few months.

RichConley

03/08/2006, 01:50 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6908913#post6908913 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ErikS
IMHO - for a display tank over 3'? No.

And that from my experience is a perfect application for them.

Modded jets aren't bad, there are just some design issues that Tunze has overcome (i.e. tip slip).

I know a guy who's running an 8' 450 gallon tank with the modded maxis. They work fine. It seems most of the people talking crap about them havent used them.

The thing is, the Tunzes are nice, yes. But what happens when an american/japanese/korean manufacturer puts out something commercial that is basically a modded maxijet, for $30. Tunze will stop being able to sell. Designing a controlled powerhead is not tough.

The reason tunze is so expensive is because they are basically the only pump in that style, and they can charge whatever they want, because people will buy.

I see prop pumps having major improvements in the next year or two, and tunze lowering their prices drastically to compete.

FWIW, I had a tunze 6060 for a while. I sold it. Why? Because it was worth more on the forums than it was to me. The maximod was putting out as much flow, would be cheaper to maintain, and has less startup cost.

This isnt like comparing a civic with a glass pack to a 5 series. Its like comparing a Honda to an Acura. Same animal, different bells and whistles.

ErikS

03/08/2006, 02:11 PM

LMAO - yep, that exactly why the American built Vortex is coming to market in the same price range as Tunze.

And I have used the maxis & there a quite a few issues with the mod.

I'd also agree that there will soon be an Asian rim import prop powerhead....but like the circulation pumps likely it will be just not quite as good.

BlueCorn

03/08/2006, 02:14 PM

I still say that you can't get this (http://www.hopdog.com/?page_id=2) kind of flow from any kind of pump alone. It's all in the controller.

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:21 PM

that definately looks like some great flow, I think I now understand it as I have never seen a tunze in person... That gives the tank more of a wave/current to the tank rather then the ripples that move the top of the water and not much more... that looks more natural, but I am still thinking whether or not its worth the money, considering many people have BEAUTIFUL reef's with just plain ol' maxijets... So basically what I am seeing out of the two differences is personal preference... and whether or not you have the money to blow on a 150$-500$ powerhead...

-Mike C. aka ZURCSREEF

ErikS

03/08/2006, 02:23 PM

That would be my opinion, perhaps we should seperate out "what kind of tunze"

I've never been a fan of the AC powered line, pretty much high end Seios (though without the associated issues).

If we're talking about the 6X00 series then it's an whole different animal & nobody has come close.......yet.

jman77

03/08/2006, 02:25 PM

ZURCSREEF,

Here you go....

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=717034&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:27 PM

Thanks Jman, very appreciated.

jman77

03/08/2006, 02:28 PM

"I still say that you can't get this kind of flow from any kind of pump alone. It's all in the controller."

That tank has a wavebox in it. I don't get any motion like that and i have a 7095 controller

ZURCSREEF

03/08/2006, 02:36 PM

What about this for now? I am currently upgrading my sump, skimmer, lighting system and getting a Ca Reactor and I wanted to add more flow while I was add it, but these tunze are going to have to wait. I was thinking, I already have two MJ1200's, and two 3/4" returns from my MDQX 3 little giant pump, each are currently on the left and other on the right, I want to add a SCWD to my 3/4" returns, but will two more 1200's + this product I just recently found: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=11363&rel=1

Be sufficient enough flow for my 120g 4x2x2 reef tank? I am looking to start holding SPS soon, I already have a whole lot of softcorals... Let me know what you guys/gals think!

-Mike C. aka ZURCSREEF
P.S. Also, give me your opinion on that product I linked above... I would like to make the order on the maxijets and possibly the "deflectors" today... btw, I will only be putting the deflectors on the PH's that will be closer to the top of the tank (the others point through the bottom back of the tank)

jman77

03/08/2006, 02:57 PM

I think you shouldn't bother with the deflectors.... I have 2 and don't use them. Are you going to mod the MJ's powerheads you have ?
You can put a larger prop on the MJ 1200 and get alot of flow.

2crazyreefers

03/08/2006, 03:38 PM

IMO this hobby is all about what us reefers choose to do. Yes we look to places like RC, LFS and fellow reefers. In the end we all make our own decisions which is a part of the hobby that keeps us the same and different as well. It dont seem to matter wether its hardware or consumables each has their own opinion.
Fortunately I have the opprtunity to own several tanks, with the largest now being a 180 AGA which I run a Tunzee wavebox and 6080 on. IMO I would never put anything else but Tunzees in there. All my sps like it as much as I do. Big cost to buy but great flow through the whole tank, low power consumption and low heat which to me = great sps tank.

RichConley

03/08/2006, 03:49 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910135#post6910135 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by beerguy
I still say that you can't get this (http://www.hopdog.com/?page_id=2) kind of flow from any kind of pump alone. It's all in the controller.

Beerguy, I can get that kind of flow out of a $16 maxi jet, a $3 homer bucket, and $4 worth of plumbing. (CSD) The tunze with controller (at $500+) just does it in a smaller package.

The tunzes are WAY above what they should cost, but theres demand for them because reefers seem to have a TON of money in general. Its the same reason people pay $4000 for a skimmer, when you've got people in the DIY forum making (and selling) almost exactly the same product out of $300 in acrylic, and $250 in pumps.

Theres an issue of prestige here.

Can anyone argue that a Birka bag is really worth $4000? Theres about a 4 year waiting line for them though....

BlueCorn

03/08/2006, 03:51 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6910923#post6910923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Beerguy, I can get that kind of flow out of a $16 maxi jet, a $3 homer bucket, and $4 worth of plumbing. (CSD) The tunze with controller (at $500+) just does it in a smaller package.

Okay - let's see it.

jman77

03/08/2006, 04:01 PM

Homer Bucker...now that's what i'm talking about.....

Rich ....take the challenge !!!!

:)

This is a little off topic....does anyone know if someone has taken apart a Wave Box and took pictures of the process ? I'm curious to see how one looks on the inside.

RichConley

03/08/2006, 04:11 PM

Its a surge device. It is a bucket basically, and runs the pump on a cycle, so it is emptying the bucket, letting it fill, and then emptying it again.

Its the same as a CSD, except it empties with a pump, rather than a siphon, and is in tank, instead of above.

RichConley

03/08/2006, 04:14 PM

Beerguy, I'm working on it. I just have to get my overflows to be able to handle it. Right now they can't handle the 2000+ gph that a 5 gallon surge bucket with 1" pipe produces sporadically. My 20g sump can't handle it either.

As for tuning it, so it works like the wavebox, and builds on resonant frequencies, just adjust the height of the stand pipe in the surge device.

jman77

03/08/2006, 04:14 PM

Really ...wow i thought it was just a pump. I didn't know it had a bucket in there.

RichConley

03/08/2006, 04:31 PM

It looks basically like another overflow in a RR tank. Its got a tunze inside, down near the bottom pointing out. Tunze cycles on, empties the box, then turns off, and water flows back in through the tunze.

BlueCorn

03/08/2006, 04:45 PM

Sorry, but a dump bucket doesn't provide the same flow characteristics of a pair of streams, on a multi-controller and a wavebox.

It might be adequate for your tank and you could be completely happy with it; that's fine. Calling it "the same" is laughable.

Cheers

blgreef

03/08/2006, 06:00 PM

See a tunze setup run, have a look at what goes into a 6100 etc and then decide if you can justify the cost, its that simple.

Stop the lets compare a Tunze to a MAxijet, they both move water but have very diff build specs, flow rates power use, size and support etc.

I would not compare an eheim to an iwaki or a sequence etc and then look at cost, diff per pumps, all very reliable but again all using diff drive methods.

What i do find strange is how much it costs to fuly stock a reef tanks with corals etc, yet pumps and their cost always seem to be a topic generater.

I have tunze streams as they give huge flow for low power use, I have full control of their output pulse setting.

If there is a failure of the motor block or the impeller jams, the electronics normaly shut the pump down and alarm, so the motor is not sitting in the tank getting hot due to no rotation.

Are they expensive in general considering the electronics, used, and the pump in general, and also its a product not built in China etc ther are reasonably priced.

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 08:03 PM

IMO, 6xMJ1200 or even 8xMJ1200 isn't going to be optimal flow for SPS in a standard 120G. You don't have to go the Tunze route, as many people have said, there are plenty of happy folks who've done the MJ mods and really like the size advantage for the flow. One of my friends recently did the mod to a MJ900 and I was fairly impressed. Try it out if you don't want to commit large sums of money to a solution--seems like a fairly straightforward mod.

dhnguyen

03/08/2006, 08:33 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6912925#post6912925 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cyclgrl
IMO, 6xMJ1200 or even 8xMJ1200 isn't going to be optimal flow for SPS in a standard 120G. ...

Wanna bet on that? :)

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 08:36 PM

I said IMO, but yes, I would take that bet.

dhnguyen

03/08/2006, 08:47 PM

I am getting 1600-1800gph out of my MJ900 modded with dual Nitro Hammer propellers. Thsi was tested using a large inflatable bag attached to the output of the pump then timed for some seconds then measured how much 2water was in the bag. As it worked out, it took around 2 seconds to fill gallon.

8XMJ1200's modded like this will put out what 12800gph That's plenty for a 120g IMO.

And if I put on a larger propeller like a 1.75" Dumas this thing will put out even MORE flow. So you be the judge.

D.

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 08:49 PM

The original poster said nothing about modding the MJ1200s he was putting into his tank.

dhnguyen

03/08/2006, 08:51 PM

And you all seem to forget that the Tunze got their idea from a DIY project just like this. Remember the Reeftec pump?

Tunzes are nice pumps don't get me wrong but what makes them nice is not the pump itself but just the electronics for the controllers.
And don't forget that price tag for the Tunze has a lot to do with them being imported from Germany as well and you're paying a good chunk for that.

cyclgrl

03/08/2006, 08:52 PM

Did you not read the rest of my original post that you quoted above?

You don't have to go the Tunze route, as many people have said, there are plenty of happy folks who've done the MJ mods and really like the size advantage for the flow. One of my friends recently did the mod to a MJ900 and I was fairly impressed. Try it out if you don't want to commit large sums of money to a solution--seems like a fairly straightforward mod.

dhnguyen

03/08/2006, 08:58 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6911934#post6911934 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blgreef
See a tunze setup run, have a look at what goes into a 6100 etc and then decide if you can justify the cost, its that simple.

Stop the lets compare a Tunze to a MAxijet, they both move water but have very diff build specs, flow rates power use, size and support etc.

I would not compare an eheim to an iwaki or a sequence etc and then look at cost, diff per pumps, all very reliable but again all using diff drive methods.

What i do find strange is how much it costs to fuly stock a reef tanks with corals etc, yet pumps and their cost always seem to be a topic generater.

I have tunze streams as they give huge flow for low power use, I have full control of their output pulse setting.

If there is a failure of the motor block or the impeller jams, the electronics normaly shut the pump down and alarm, so the motor is not sitting in the tank getting hot due to no rotation.

Are they expensive in general considering the electronics, used, and the pump in general, and also its a product not built in China etc ther are reasonably priced.

Dude... Being made in Germany doesn't mean a product is better. I also think you would be surprised at how many products are infact built in China then shipped overseas (even Europe) to be rebranded.

Take a Volkswagen for instance. One of the worse cars I have eveer owned and it's German built. Go figure.

dkh0331

03/08/2006, 09:05 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6909964#post6909964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Designing a controlled powerhead is not tough.

Streams have been around for a few years, comanding high $'s and in short supply. If it is as easy as you indicate to design a controlled ph, why aren't there any other ones on the market?

David

dhnguyen

03/08/2006, 09:11 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6913467#post6913467 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dkh0331
Streams have been around for a few years, comanding high $'s and in short supply. If it is as easy as you indicate to design a controlled ph, why aren't there any other ones on the market?

David

Not for too much longer they won't (Tunze)

Just wait until the Vortech pump is released by Ice Cap. I think we'll start to see prices start dropping on Tunzes.

CaptainCoral

03/08/2006, 09:54 PM

Tunzee's are hand made in Germany (where quality and craftsmanship still matter). I remember as a youth (in the 70's) there still were companys here in the USA with great products, part list's and numbers, service and suppport, and things were made to last. Ahhhhh, but things have changed, and we're now consumers of crap that we're encouraged to throw away within 5 years if it hasn't failed yet. (to fuel the economy by buying even more crap, built to even more crappy specs)

I didn't like spending the money for my streams, but I'll tell you what, I know what I'm not missing. It is a throwback to when things were manufactured here in a competative market. (remember, technology wasn't growing nearly as fast in past generations, and things had to be made to last a lifetime in order to beat the competition) Sadly now, a product still being made by these traditional standards, is under attack for bearing a price tag that the free market decides.
If it wasn't worth it, only fools would be buying it! They'd be even more foolish to enjoy it! Yes, I'm a fan of my Streams! :wave:

PS, there would have to be several comperable products competing in order for prices to drop significantly.

PPSS... Germany IS world renowned for exacting machine specifications. They take great pride in that, and it's part of their identity.

dhnguyen

03/08/2006, 10:48 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6913908#post6913908 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CaptainCoral
Tunzee's are hand made in Germany (where quality and craftsmanship still matter). I remember as a youth (in the 70's) there still were companys here in the USA with great products, part list's and numbers, service and suppport, and things were made to last. Ahhhhh, but things have changed, and we're now consumers of crap that we're encouraged to throw away within 5 years if it hasn't failed yet. (to fuel the economy by buying even more crap, built to even more crappy specs)

I didn't like spending the money for my streams, but I'll tell you what, I know what I'm not missing. It is a throwback to when things were manufactured here in a competative market. (remember, technology wasn't growing nearly as fast in past generations, and things had to be made to last a lifetime in order to beat the competition) Sadly now, a product still being made by these traditional standards, is under attack for bearing a price tag that the free market decides.
If it wasn't worth it, only fools would be buying it! They'd be even more foolish to enjoy it! Yes, I'm a fan of my Streams! :wave:

PS, there would have to be several comperable products competing in order for prices to drop significantly.

PPSS... Germany IS world renowned for exacting machine specifications. They take great pride in that, and it's part of their identity.

Ah yes... The renowned and superior "German Engineering" like my former Volkswagen Jetta that spent more time in the shop than any other cars I have owned :)

The reason the Tunze pumps are expensive is just this that there WAS no competition for its market so they basically can charge whatever they wish for their product and people will buy it. But I believe soon we will see a whole slough of new propeller driven pumps that will eventually force Tunze to lower their prices. Have you checked out the Vortech pump? This thing would have the Tunze for lunch and then some.

CaptainCoral

03/08/2006, 11:11 PM

The reason the Tunze pumps are expensive is just this that there WAS no competition for its market so they basically can charge whatever they wish for their product and people will buy it. But I believe soon we will see a whole slough of new propeller driven pumps that will eventually force Tunze to lower their prices. Have you checked out the Vortech pump? This thing would have the Tunze for lunch and then some.

Yeah, we are on the same page here. ;) .... but let's not forget there is indeed a quality here thats been unavailable as well as a product. It's not like they're selling crap for extra, It's quality for extra. This is part of the beauty of capitolism. People will pay for what it's worth at the time of payment. I don't complain about the latest grafics card prices if I want to play today's games now. I know later the price will come down, but the game came out today. Same issue with our reefs. There is nothing wrong with making a buck in America if you've got the "stuff" to make it happen. Dreams come true here. (we're doing the same thing in the lighting department, spending dough on crappy 14k bulbs, knowing that soon there'll be perfectly rounded spectrum bulbs with outstanding PAR).

Like I said before, I didn't like the money spent (I won't go into details about my internal dialog to whip out the credit card), and don't get me wrong here, I do want to see the price come down.
However, I do understand why I and others enjoy what we've purchased. It's really an economic issue for monetary debate. I'd like to think of myself as sane enough not to buy a bubble king skimmer, and still argue a point for this product. :rollface:

As for the German car issues, I feel for ya. Any moving parts (short of alien beringless tech) will require maintenance and part replacement. There are all kinds of car repair shops around here for every make on the planet. (See, americans are raped on part costs here, and we all know repair costs are in the same catagory)

PS.... Japan currently has the market dominated on the car issue, and with great warranties also, if you're looking to jump ship on your car angst. :cool:

PPSS... If you're going to jump ship, I recommend snorkles, fins, oxygen tank, and scenic reef locations. Oh, and a camera, I want pics. :eek:

Plato

03/08/2006, 11:50 PM

They are great. I have two with the multy controler in a 300 reef, saved lots of time not having to plumb. I got mine from champion lighting. What do I think about them. What is that sound that Homer Simpson makes when he thanks about beer.

CaptainCoral

03/08/2006, 11:57 PM

:beer: Cheers!

Yes, lets not forget how crucial the multicontroller is to the Stream success!

The lateral flow of "what I've seen of the Vortech pump" isn't enough to satisfy me without pics of controller applications. If they've come up with a comparable controller with lower prices, then the game will be upped a notch, eh! ;)

dkh0331

03/09/2006, 04:47 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6913517#post6913517 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dhnguyen
Not for too much longer they won't (Tunze)

Just wait until the Vortech pump is released by Ice Cap. I think we'll start to see prices start dropping on Tunzes.

Competition in the free market is a good thing and if and when other companies develop and release a controllable PH Great!! :thumbsup: And I use the statement if and when because until it's released, it's vaporware.

My statement was in response to the one that "Designing a controlled powerhead is not tough." If it is not that difficult, the market would have more than one option available today. There has been talks about the Seio's coming out with a controller, but that again, is vaporware. All talk no product.

Just my 2Â¢

David

MiddletonMark

03/09/2006, 06:06 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6914306#post6914306 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dhnguyen
Have you checked out the Vortech pump? This thing would have the Tunze for lunch and then some.
Yup, impressive - but same price range, though.

ErikS

03/09/2006, 07:54 AM

:rolleyes:

Really, how about we try the full facts before making statements -

Ah yes... The renowned and superior "German Engineering" like my former Volkswagen Jetta that spent more time in the shop than any other cars I have owned
Ah that would be Hecho in Mexico - not Wolfsburg. Quality control issues, not like the continuing decline in Japanese cars since they started (were forced) to make them in the US. But even at that the major problem is the service network (inability to fix issues correctly), abysmal by any standard - an ongoing issue. But then again it's to be expected when marketing to American consumers. As demonstrated in this thread - we just don't care, just make it CHEAP! (kinda like why Wallyworld dominates - we vote with out wallets).

Have you checked out the Vortech pump? This thing would have the Tunze for lunch and then some.
An invalid statement given there is no data to support such a claim. I saw them at MACNA (1st thought was - dang, that's SO simple) & indeed they will provide good flow......but...as of yet they have no controller & there will never be the directional ability of a stream.

And you all seem to forget that the Tunze got their idea from a DIY project just like this. Remember the Reeftec pump?
Once again, invalid. Unless you have concrete proof (like a patent) you can't say who had what idea first. Euro companies are known for taking extended periods of time to bring a product to market - for all anyone knows the ReefTec folks could have seen a prototype & rushed a cheap copy to market.

And ReefTec is no longer around why? Oh that's right they never could solve several issues (same that will plague a modded pump).

Just wait until the Vortech pump is released by Ice Cap. I think we'll start to see prices start dropping on Tunzes.
Why? They're in the same, if not higher, price bracket. A vortex w/o a controller looks to run around $350 - yeah, that will make Tunze drop the prices.
My statement was in response to the one that "Designing a controlled powerhead is not tough." If it is not that difficult, the market would have more than one option available today. There has been talks about the Seio's coming out with a controller, but that again, is vaporware. All talk no product.
Ding....ding....ding - we have a winner. Heck, if it was as simple as tossing a prop on a pump Reeftec would still be around (& likely the talk of the town).

sean_nj

03/09/2006, 08:27 AM

ErikS

03/09/2006, 08:47 AM

At least, people pay same price for Tunze in Europe and USA, or any other place. If you look at what people pay at Europe for skimmers like Deltec, H&S, Bubbleking and what we are charged here, you will.....
Don't even get me started :mad2: :lol:

Bottom line is buy & use what you like & works for you - I've seen great tanks basically held together with duct tape & equally great using the highest end equipment you can get.

oct2274

03/09/2006, 08:53 AM

i just wanted to put my two cents in about german engineering ahha........if you look back at alot of cars that have been built in germany over the years, including bmw, they have some of the worst track records for electrical issues of any cars ever.......that being said i think the tunze is an awesome product, but way way over priced........they have done the right thing as a business and charged alot for their product at the beginning cause they can! until someone steps up and puts them in their place this will continue............i'm sure they'll have no issues in the future lowering their prices to compete, but in the mean time its all profit and they are luvin it!

dhnguyen

03/09/2006, 09:18 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6915713#post6915713 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ErikS
[B]:rolleyes:

Really, how about we try the full facts before making statements -

Ah that would be Hecho in Mexico - not Wolfsburg. Quality control issues, not like the continuing decline in Japanese cars since they started (were forced) to make them in the US. But even at that the major problem is the service network (inability to fix issues correctly), abysmal by any standard - an ongoing issue. But then again it's to be expected when marketing to American consumers. As demonstrated in this thread - we just don't care, just make it CHEAP! (kinda like why Wallyworld dominates - we vote with out wallets).

Please.... I have driven and seen the Wolfsburg VWs as well. Same if not worse problems affect these. Ya think I would have learned the first time :lol:

Once again, invalid. Unless you have concrete proof (like a patent) you can't say who had what idea first. Euro companies are known for taking extended periods of time to bring a product to market - for all anyone knows the ReefTec folks could have seen a prototype & rushed a cheap copy to market.

And ReefTec is no longer around why? Oh that's right they never could solve several issues (same that will plague a modded pump).

Perhaps you might be interested in abit of nostalgic reading
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/review.htm

LegoZ81

03/09/2006, 09:21 AM

The ooodles of extra profit give them the capability to dump money into R&D and tooling up as well. This could set the path for a much larger company to emerge.

oct2274

03/09/2006, 09:25 AM

exactly......tunze is a smart company and is making as much profit as they can, while they can.......

ReeferAl

03/09/2006, 09:30 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6911103#post6911103 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Its a surge device. It is a bucket basically, and runs the pump on a cycle, so it is emptying the bucket, letting it fill, and then emptying it again.

Its the same as a CSD, except it empties with a pump, rather than a siphon, and is in tank, instead of above.

That's not entirely correct. It does work by pumping water out of a reservoir and then letting it flow back in, like a RCSD. The difference , and it is a big one, is the ability to change the timeing such that it matches the resonance frequency of the tank so that there is a continuous oscillating of water back and forth in the tank. It really does reproduce the back and forth motion you see from wave action when diving. A RCSD gives more of a surge than reproducing wave action.

Allen

ErikS

03/09/2006, 09:39 AM

Please.... I have driven and seen the Wolfsburg VWs as well. Same if not worse problems affect these. Ya think I would have learned the first time
Ah, but then we have to factor in car brand karma. Seem like we all have brands that are bad & good....and they all differ. Can't think of a brand where some folks have nothing but problems & yet others have nothing but good experiences.....gotta be some sort of weird karma. Me I've never had a GM or Honda got more than 3' w/o a problem - never had a single problem with a Ford or Toyota - go figure.

:lol:

I digress, I read the article when it came out - my only point is that really we have no idea who was doing what in some back room....and...is it even relevant?

FWIW - I am NO fan of either manufacturer controlled pricing nor what the market can bear pricing.....but....only competition will change that.

jman77

03/09/2006, 09:59 AM

"As demonstrated in this thread - we just don't care, just make it CHEAP! (kinda like why Wallyworld dominates - we vote with out wallets)"

Hell yea..... cheap....!!!!

ErikS

03/09/2006, 10:39 AM

Another digression -

IMHO this thread is an example of RC @ it's best - a heated discussion & yet everyone can still laugh.........after all it's just pumps :D

jman77

03/09/2006, 10:56 AM

;)

brad23

03/14/2006, 10:33 AM

Your VW was made in mexico not Germany.

dhnguyen

03/14/2006, 12:40 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6951420#post6951420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by brad23
Your VW was made in mexico not Germany.

I have driven the Wolfsburg models which are made in Germany. They are no better IMO.

D.

JER-Z

03/14/2006, 01:14 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6952238#post6952238 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dhnguyen
I have driven the Wolfsburg models which are made in Germany. They are no better IMO.

D.

you are confusing the Wolfsburg EDITION jetta...It was also built in mexico...

The jetta wagons are the only MKIV jettas built in Germany that are available in the U.S.

dhnguyen

03/14/2006, 03:03 PM

Ok maybe so.. But the point I'm trying to make is that just because something is made in Germany does not automatically make it a "superior" product that A. No one can make just as good or better or B. Can't be copied.

Copying isn't nice but that's how it is. It's all Business.

And believe me I used to work for a German company. We had plenty of engineering defects and design problems.

That "Deutschland Uber Alles" attitude is a farce really.

RichConley

03/14/2006, 03:03 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6916187#post6916187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
That's not entirely correct. It does work by pumping water out of a reservoir and then letting it flow back in, like a RCSD. The difference , and it is a big one, is the ability to change the timeing such that it matches the resonance frequency of the tank so that there is a continuous oscillating of water back and forth in the tank. It really does reproduce the back and forth motion you see from wave action when diving. A RCSD gives more of a surge than reproducing wave action.

Allen

All, a CSD can be adjusted to change timing, its just most people are too lazy to do it. Its all changing the standpipe height, and diameter. Just a little bit of math. If you figure in the resonant frequency, you will get EXACTLY the same wave motion.

Alaskan Reefer

03/14/2006, 04:04 PM

I have two plain old 6060s in my 125 and wouldn't trade them. Okay maybe I'd trade them for some with the multicontroller, but for now they'll do.

Forget cheap, I want quality and reliability, regardless of cost.

And unfortunately, I own a fully loaded 2001 "New" Passat Wagon. LOL. The car is lucky that it's so fun to drive, or it would be dead and buried by now. Repair bills are horrendous.

Can someone recommend a reliable European car please? I don't care what it costs. :)

dhnguyen

03/14/2006, 04:11 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6953682#post6953682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Alaskan Reefer
...Can someone recommend a reliable European car please? I don't care what it costs. :)

Reliable...

That puts Audi and Mercedes out of the list. Possibly BMW might be ok.

My sister and brother in law have had all 3. The brand new Audi and Mercedes they had started having problems after a few months. The BMW being the least problematic. The regular maintenance bill is still gonna kill your wallet though.

Not sure about Saab.

D.

Alaskan Reefer

03/14/2006, 04:21 PM

D -- yeah definitely no on Mercedes (the least reliable car ever?), and Audi is a big no too. Looking back, even though it was a tiny little thing, I should have gone with the 325ix Wagon. Next one will be a Bimmer, can't get the European driving experience out of my blood now.

RichConley

03/14/2006, 04:24 PM

Girlfriend has a Saab, I think shes had 20K worth of repairs done in the last year(all on warranty). Every week its back in the shop.

Fwiw, my mazda is much more fun to drive than the 325i I had, and her saab.

JER-Z

03/14/2006, 07:57 PM

well I am a former VW enthusiast that finally got fed up w/ the annoying problems and traded it in...2 days after i traded it the turbo took a crap. I really dodged the bullet on that one...

I decided to give Saab a try and got a 2006 93 2.0t. So far so good, but i only have 7,000 miles on it. The customer support and free maintenance for the life of the warrantee can't be beat. And it actually came to the U.S. on a boat, whatever that's worth. :)

I am with you Alaskan Reefer, I am hooked on euro cars...I like the Bimmers, but they are WAY too common in my town. I love the look and feel of the SAAB, I just hope i don't get problems like Rich's Girlfriend

ZURCSREEF

03/14/2006, 08:39 PM

Oh, I didn't realize I was in a CAR forum, sorry, lol...

5thtonbench

03/14/2006, 08:51 PM

Im sure some cant say the same and I dont know about BMW's, VW's or Maxijetts, but my porsche is rock solid bulletproof...

...and so are my streams ;) The only thing I can say is I would have liked them to be smaller but I am sure with that would come some sacrifice.

Serioussnaps

03/15/2006, 12:56 AM

is this for reefkeeping or an international economy forumn

Alaskan Reefer

03/15/2006, 01:39 PM

Well it kind of got off on a tangent, which was my fault.

Back to the topic at hand, I like my Tunze 6060s, and I'm satisfied with the value.

dandydan

03/15/2006, 06:30 PM

Just received my 6000 and 7095 control for future upgrade,
couldnt believe how good it is in my 75 Ukgal
I was happy to dump my 3 MJ1200 which were running on a wavemaker and were very noisy, and had the fish scattering when they switched in.

2ras

03/15/2006, 06:37 PM

I like my 2-6000s with 7095 controller. Best money I ever spent (on the tank).
It just boils down to what your budget will allow you to spend.

Ray

Reefologist

03/15/2006, 07:28 PM

Germany is a country. Business is business. Not really bound without exceptions. Quality comes down to each manufacturer not where they are geographically. I too own a VW made in mexico,although made in mexico don't blame the mexicans because rest assured the germans are driving the boat. In contrast mexico makes the worlds best tequilla. Business are as different as the people who run them, it all comes down to quality or quantity.

Reefologist

03/15/2006, 07:32 PM

By the way my VW too is a P.O.S. But we are talking water pumps not cars, right?

ZURCSREEF

03/15/2006, 07:45 PM

Oh yeah, thats what this thread was about, Tunze Pumps and Streams... NOT CARS!?!

Alaskan Reefer

03/15/2006, 07:51 PM

No, this is the new VW Complaint Thread.

The Euroreef Forum is dead now, so there has to be somewhere for the disgruntled youth (well, not so youth here) to vent!

LOL

Reefologist

03/15/2006, 07:57 PM

Given their reputation, there is no question the streams and controllers are an excellent product. Whether or not they are worth it is up to each individual. Everyones "worth it to them price" is different. happy reefkeeping....

JER-Z

03/15/2006, 09:27 PM

i bought a 6000 stream kit...i am still a newbie and havn't even put it into service yet, but i payed the $ for it, and i imagine i will like it from what i read. My other option was getting the new icecap deal, but paying more money for a pump w/out a controller than i payed for an entire Tunze kit turned me off. I don't see Tunze lowering the price if they are already cheaper than the competitor who has no track record w/ pumps...

Reefologist

03/16/2006, 06:34 PM

I agree Jer-z. If the competition was cheaper MAYBE. I have no problem with more duckets=$ for a known entity than something new=unknown....to each his or her own....happy reefing...

ZURCSREEF

03/16/2006, 06:43 PM

Jer-z makes a good point. I just got a deal on a couple more maxi-jets so I will be sticking with them till after I get back from the Kentucky Derby around/before summer time, then I will have to pull out the money and check out these suckers.

-Mike C. aka ZURCSREEF

Alaskan Reefer

03/17/2006, 02:00 AM

Have you looked into the maxijet stream modification? I'm going to try it here soon -- ordering parts tomorrow. I love my Tunzes, but this is a neat project and I want to try it out.

ZURCSREEF

03/17/2006, 05:56 AM

I don't have the time to be ordering the parts and modding it, I wish I did, but I don't...

tangblack

03/17/2006, 06:10 AM

dhnguyen

03/17/2006, 10:41 AM

Of course Ice Cap would price the Vortech in the same range as a Tunze 6100. They would be dumb not to because believe it or not people WILL pay for them just like they have been paying for the Tunzes.

My point that you seem to have missed is that NOW there is competition for Tunze for the same business and customer base. Before Vortech there WAS no competition for Tunze. SEIO? Those pumps are crap and not in the same league. Besides SEIO isn't a propeller pump but rather a fancy impeller driven pump. We all know that.

Before the Vortech, the Tunze was the ONLY propeller driven pump/powerhead available so if you wanted one you HAD to buy Tunze - there was no other option. Now soon we(the hobbiests) will have a CHOICE. It is that choice that will eat into Tunze's marketshare and eventually force them to adapt to compete, perhaps with price drop, new design features, etc...

I don't think Vortech will be the only propeller powerhead that will be competing against Tunze in the near future. Other manufacturers to catch on to this and release their own.

Building a propeller driven pump is no rocket science. I know this because I can modify my Maxijet to put out 1600-2000+ gph. Even the nice electronics Tunze use for their controllable models can be built or copied as well.

MiddletonMark

03/17/2006, 10:59 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6976096#post6976096 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dhnguyen
Even the nice electronics Tunze use for their controllable models can be built or copied as well.
Yes, but at times this whole equation fails to put a value on my time, which would be required to DIY all this.

I've never found a DIY project that took radically less time than first hypothesized .... and I put high value on my free time.
If I loved to relax with a DIY project - that would be different - but when I compare my time with this vs. spent otherwise ... that's quite an hourly rate.

But we're different folks, no wonder we think different :)

dhnguyen

03/17/2006, 11:11 AM

You're absolutely right MiddletonMark. Most people like yourself do not want to spend the time DIY. But some like myself love to tinker with things and see how they can be built and improved. I guess that comes with the territory given my technical profession.

Some of the best products originated from DIY projects such as this Maxijet-mod. To me it is not about how much an hourly rate I'm going to put on my time because I enjoy doing it and find it therapeutic to a point.