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SoonerFan732
03/08/2006, 09:08 PM
I need some help with my algae problem. Below are some pictures of the algae that is growing in my main display. The first three pictures are what it looks like from about lights on until 7 PM then from 7 until lights off if looks like the last two pictures. It has gradually been getting worse over the past 2 weeks. You may recall a month or so ago I was having problems with brown algae blooming. Now I have this instead.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Some info to help:
75 gallon with a Euroreef CS8-3 skimmer (hasn't been collecting much skimmate past 4 months, maybe 1/4" every 3-4 days), mag 9.5 in the sump and 3 maxi-jet 1200's in the main display. The actinics are on from 9 AM - 10:30 PM (x2 65W power compact) the rest of the lights are on from 10:30 AM - 9 PM(x2 65W 10000K/6500K PC and 2 65W SmartPaq PC). The 10000K/6500K bulbs are 8 months old, the SmartPaqs are 2 months old, 1 Actinic is 1 week old and 1 is 8 months old. I have been using RO/DI water from the start and the tank has been set up for 8 months.

Temperature (F) 78-80
pH 8-8.3
Calcium (PPM) 400
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia (PPM) 0
Nitrite (PPM) 0
Nitrate (PPM) 0
Phosphates (PPM) 0.1

Rock 1 in the afternoon
http://members.cox.net/kford9/Algae/A1.JPG

Rock 2 in the afternoon
http://members.cox.net/kford9/Algae/A2.JPG

Rock 3 in the afternoon
http://members.cox.net/kford9/Algae/A3.JPG

Rock 1 in the evening
http://members.cox.net/kford9/Algae/A4.JPG

Rock 3 in the evening
http://members.cox.net/kford9/Algae/A5.JPG

pwhitby
03/08/2006, 10:07 PM
I would strip the ER down and clean the venturis. I would also add some detrivores and snails/hermits.

The algae you have there is a prime food for hermits. If you can, get red, since they dont kill snails like the blues.

I would also get a toothbrush and scrub the rock while siphoning out the algae.

P.

VCoo71
03/08/2006, 10:11 PM
is that red algae a slime or more of a turf? i cant tell from the pics

charlie

pwhitby
03/08/2006, 10:14 PM
looks like a mix of red and turf type to me.

scott0615
03/08/2006, 10:18 PM
Cowries are awesome at eating cyano. We've had great luck clearing it up quite quickly. Have you every double checked your test kits???? Do you find the algae is growing in a lower flow rate area????

SoonerFan732
03/08/2006, 10:34 PM
I broke the Euroreef down a couple of weeks ago. I have another thread going in the Euroreef message board. They recommend several things and I have tried them all (cleaning the pump, skimmer, reducing flow through the skimmer compartment, etc...) It still works as well as it did before I did all that stuff.

Seems to be more of a turf, but I am not sure...

All the test kits are Salifert except my phosphate (Red Sea or something like that). I use a refractometer for Salinity and a Pinpoint pH meter for pH. I just calibrated the pH meter today. I was just a bit off. I bought the test kits about 6-7 months ago. I do wonder about the Nitrate Test kit, as I have never been able to get it change color at all (nitrate has always read the lowest reading).

I have a quite a few hermits and snails. I have to have over 40-50 hermits and 40-50 snails of one sort or another.

Thanks for the help!

VCoo71
03/08/2006, 10:37 PM
the red turf is a PIA and will still grow in even a very low phosphate environment!!!! as low as 0.02 on a hanna colorimeter

i have yet to see anything really eat it!!!

charlie

scott0615
03/08/2006, 10:39 PM
I would double check your kits with a local store or anyone with different / newer / different kits. How about flow rate in the areas the algae is growing?

djc1026
03/08/2006, 11:00 PM
It looks like red slime to me as well. I concur with the above recommendations and add that PC lighting typically has an effective age of 6-8 months and could also be a factor.

I would also just give a warning about the cowries. I was very intrigued by them when I got into SW about a year ago and did a lot of research on them. It is a very interesting animal and there are literally hundreds of species. Most are omnivores that tend to specialize with one sort of prey in the wild ranging from corals and sponges to other inverts. In the home aquarium they generally are documented as algae grazers, which they do very well, this however, is typically noted by biologists as opportunistic feeding as they are searching for a more suitable food source. Because there are so many species and they often look similar, it is difficult to accurately identify them to know exactly what their preferred food source is. Many people report never experiencing any problems, others report no problems until an addition to the tank is made after the cowrie, and still others report problems with them right off the bat. Another drawback is depending on the species, for example the tiger cowrie (cypraea tigris) can reach 4 inches in diameter, making it quite the bulldozer. From everything I read and could find the best recommendations of cowries for the reef tank are the money cowrie (cypraea moneta) and the ringed cowrie (cypraea annulus)...of course this is if you can accurately identify them and understand they may still be opportunistic feeders at times, their size though stays realtive small coming in at around an 1.5" full grown. One to stay away from for sure is the Flamingo Tongue Cowrie (Cyphoma gibbosum) as it primarily eats several species of soft corals. Also cowries' health in the home aquarium is often debated due to in the wild their mantle envelops the shell and this is not always seen in captivity. My personal opinion about this debate is sort of like the inflated bubbles debate on BTAs.

Sorry for the long post, just one of those topics that I found a lot of info on and never had the opportunity to share it with anyone.

Dave

scott0615
03/08/2006, 11:08 PM
We have a vendor selling "algae eating cowries". Based on info from other people I was skeptical as well. I was told "algae only" from this vendor and this specie would not grow to more than 1" in size. I need to attempt to properly identify this animal when time permits. I have had great results over the last couple of months.

djc1026
03/08/2006, 11:19 PM
The tiger cowrie is often advertised as an algae eater, but even if they are and that's all they ever eat, what are you going to do with a baseball size snail in your tank? The problem is finding the right one to do the job. My brother had a cowrie, can't remember if that's how it was sold or if it had a common name, anyway he found it one day consuming his hammer coral.

Sorry to hijack the thread SoonerFan.

SoonerFan732
03/09/2006, 06:42 AM
Thanks guys!

Charlie, What is PIA?

Scott, Some if the stuff is growing in the lower flow areas, but the most of it grows in the highest flow area of my tank.

VCoo71
03/09/2006, 06:46 AM
pain in the ***

are you able to blow it off with a powerhead? if so i would say redslime
if not and its more like a brillo pad i would try some emerald crabs

charlie

luvabunny
03/09/2006, 06:46 AM
Ever tried chemi-clean?
Oh, and my sailfin tang eats red turf algae.
Because of the bubbles in yours, it appears more cyano to me. Chemi-clean will get rid of it promptly and not hurt anything else in your tank.

SoonerFan732
03/09/2006, 08:17 AM
What's Chemi-clean and how do you apply it?

Charlie, I will see if it comes off with a power head this evening when I get home.

Thanks!

Kevin

ReeferRyan
03/09/2006, 08:23 AM
You can get Chemi-Clean at almost all LFS. It is a white powder that you mix in water then pour in your aquarium. From personal experience, make sure it dissolves before you pour it in, because it will just float on the top then end up in the sump. After applying, you need to do a water change.

I have the same algae problem as you and Chemi-Clean didn't touch it. This could be because I didn't do something right, but I figure it is because its turf algae, not cyano.

TimV
03/09/2006, 08:29 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6915814#post6915814 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SoonerFan732
What's Chemi-clean and how do you apply it?

Charlie, I will see if it comes off with a power head this evening when I get home.

Thanks!

Kevin

Chemi-clean is an aquarium additive you can get online or at fish stores. I'm not sure exactly how it works though. You can also use a product called Red Slime Remover. It will work on exactly what you have (I know, I'll occasionally get that too). RSR is simply erythromycin, so you can save money by going to Petsmart or the LFS and buying Maracyn (not Maracyn II which is tetracycline). I've used both RSR and Maracyn and both worked just fine to remove red slime. Erythromycin is not going to have any major effect on the critical bacteria in a salt water tank as they are already naturally resistant to it.

T

SoonerFan732
03/09/2006, 08:40 AM
Does Chemi-Clean, Red Slime Remover, or Maracyn have any side-effects on the inverts, corals, or fish?

What could be possible source(s) of this algae?

Thanks for all the help!

mskohl
03/09/2006, 09:26 AM
If it is red slime (cyano) bacteria, I would suggest that your lights have worn out. I had a cyano problem and after I added more flow, reduced feeding (even though my nitrates and phosphates were 0), I tried the lights and basically overnight the problem was gone. I used chemi-clean several times and it would generally give a good reduction, but it always came back.

If you just blow off the cyano and don't suction it out, it will spread to anywhere it lands. The air bubbles in your picture indicate to me that it is cyano. If you can peel it off in sections, that would also indicate cyano, but I don't have any experience with red turf.

Hope this helped - it's just my experience. Let me know if I can add anything else. I battled cyano for a couple of months before I figured it out.
Stephanie

SoonerFan732
03/09/2006, 09:45 AM
I do have two spare bulbs to replace to oldest bulbs (6500K/10000K) perhaps I will switch them out and see how that goes.

I have also added some attachments to my maxi-jets that rotate (driven by the flow output of the powerhead) to alternate the flow a few weeks ago. Maybe those things reduced the flow in the tank quite a bit more than I thought (Doesn't cyano like lower flow?)

So why does the algae appear to recede in the evening? After about 7 PM it is hardly noticable (however the green algae under the red shows up more, but the red is hardly noticable). Those pictures don't really show the difference as well as seeing it in person. If it looked like it did later in the evening it really wouldn't bother me, but in the afternoon it looks like a forest waving around.

Thansk!

Kevin

TimV
03/09/2006, 10:09 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6916277#post6916277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SoonerFan732
I do have two spare bulbs to replace to oldest bulbs (6500K/10000K) perhaps I will switch them out and see how that goes.

I have also added some attachments to my maxi-jets that rotate (driven by the flow output of the powerhead) to alternate the flow a few weeks ago. Maybe those things reduced the flow in the tank quite a bit more than I thought (Doesn't cyano like lower flow?)

So why does the algae appear to recede in the evening? After about 7 PM it is hardly noticable (however the green algae under the red shows up more, but the red is hardly noticable). Those pictures don't really show the difference as well as seeing it in person. If it looked like it did later in the evening it really wouldn't bother me, but in the afternoon it looks like a forest waving around.

Thansk!

Kevin

During the day it is undergoing photosynthesis with a byproduct being oxygen. THe oxygen bubbles accumulate and makes the mass expand. When the lights go out, the oxygen dissipates and the mass appears to get smaller.

Lights may be part of it but in my experience I've never been able to definitively figure out why I occasionally get it. For me, it has nothing to do with lighting as it will occur with new bulbs as much as with old bulbs. It will only populate a few different rocks and only those rocks and it has nothing to do with flow. So I'll treat it and it will go away for 6-9 months.

Erythromycin won't have any detrimental effects on your tank if used properly.

T

mskohl
03/09/2006, 10:20 AM
a lot of times when it's related to flow, it's on the bottom. But when it's on the rock, like it was for me, it could be a build up of detritus and just gunk in the crevices of the rock.

I would try one of the additives to reduce it. Then, what isn't killed off in the 48 hrs (or whatever is recommended) I would syphon out as best you could. Then, just before your water change, I would take the turkey baster and force water into the crevices on the rock and watch the crud fly out. My hermits like to eat this stuff, but they always leave crumbs. :)

SoonerFan732
03/09/2006, 10:25 AM
If I use the Maracyn how do I use it properly?

The instructions I found say:

Instructions:
Add one tablet per 20 gallons of water and repeat every 24 hours for 5 days. Repeat this 5 day treatment only once if needed. Treat for 5 days even if visable signs disappear. May be used in combination with other Mardel saltwater products.

Is this how you use it? Do you place the tablets directly in the tank or what?

Thanks!

TimV
03/09/2006, 11:00 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6916571#post6916571 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SoonerFan732
If I use the Maracyn how do I use it properly?

The instructions I found say:

Instructions:
Add one tablet per 20 gallons of water and repeat every 24 hours for 5 days. Repeat this 5 day treatment only once if needed. Treat for 5 days even if visable signs disappear. May be used in combination with other Mardel saltwater products.

Is this how you use it? Do you place the tablets directly in the tank or what?

Thanks!

You can predissolve it if you choose, but you don't have to. Turn your skimmer off as it will foam like crazy if you don't

T

SoonerFan732
03/09/2006, 11:14 AM
Thanks Tim!

How long does it usually take you to see results?

I see there is a freshwater and saltwater version of Maracyn, do you know what the difference (beside the fact that they say use one for freshwater and one for saltwater)?

dugg
03/09/2006, 11:27 AM
IMO, it is a lighting issue. When i used to use PC lights, i had this stuff pretty regular. PC lights only have about an 8 month life span at best, and i have had them last as little as 2 months before changing spectrum and causing this problem. It doesn't even seem to matter the brand of bulb. I would change the bulbs out and increase the flow for a few weeks. Don't stir the stuff around by hand or with brushes, just change the lights and increase the flow. All of those bubbles are filled with millions of spores, just waiting for you to stir them into the water collum. You can syphon them, but don't try syphoning through a filter to save the water, the spores will go right through the filter.

I fought this problem over and over for years, and i am convinced it is the changing spectrum of the PC lights that causes it. I haven't had even one episode of this since i tossed the PC lights and went to MH. That is proof positive to me that it is 100% the lights that cause it. The coralife and hellolights bulbs seem to be the worst ones for being unpredictable on life span.

TimV
03/09/2006, 11:30 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6916927#post6916927 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SoonerFan732
Thanks Tim!

How long does it usually take you to see results?

I see there is a freshwater and saltwater version of Maracyn, do you know what the difference (beside the fact that they say use one for freshwater and one for saltwater)?

Honestly, I didn't know there was a difference. Whatever you do, just look at the package and make sure that it is only erythromycin. You don't necessarily have to add as much as the directions tell you to in order to get good results. You are simply trying to raise the concentration in the water column, not the fish. If you go way too high, then you'll start affecting other bacteria. I usually dose about a quarter of what the directions state. If it doesn't completely clear it up, you can always dose again in a few days.

You'll see a noticable difference in hours. Within a day or two, it will all be gone. The important thing is to go ahead and try to cut down on feeding and other issues with your tank rather than to always rely upon crutches. Kill it but reduce nutrient overload so it doesn't come back.

When you turn your skimmer back on it is going to foam like crazy so be prepared. You might try running carbon after a few days.

T

PS looking at the boxes for saltwater or freshwater maracyn, it looks like the saltwater has extra vitamins. It probably also is a lower dosage since erythromycin will be non-ionized at the pH of a saltwater tank and thus will be more effective.

SoonerFan732
03/09/2006, 01:19 PM
I went home at lunch and tried to see how easily the red algae comes off as suggested, it comes off quite easily. The spot I tested looked clean after I wiped it with my finger.

Thanks for everyone's help so far!

Kevin

dugg
03/09/2006, 02:37 PM
I went home at lunch and tried to see how easily the red algae comes off as suggested, it comes off quite easily. The spot I tested looked clean after I wiped it with my finger.

Congratulations, you have now seeded your tank for an even bigger outbreak!! NEVER rub, wipe, scrub, or touch that stuff in the tank, either syphon it out, or take the rocks out to a bucket of fresh salt water to scrub it off there. Wiping it off inside the tank only disperses 10 billion spores into the water collum to settle into thier new homes in the rocks and grow.

SoonerFan732
03/09/2006, 02:48 PM
Dugg,

It was a tiny spot. . Its all over the tank already. There aren't many places with out it now. We aren't talking about a small outbreak here. Someone asked how it easily it comes of the rocks so I found out (for ID purposes). I think proper ID is the most important thing at this point and there was some question by others as to its correct ID. Thanks!

Russ Braaten
03/09/2006, 07:40 PM
You said this is the second outbreak after the diatom (Brown algae). This is common. It is a phase that you have to get through and I tried everything until I realized it was a phase.

Since you seem to be doing everything right, do as Paul mentioned. Get a toothbrush and use a small hose to siphon the stuff out of the system. If you have a refugium, make some sort of screen that you can place at the end of the siphon that sits in the sump. Then brush and suck away the junk. Some of it will suck right off.

Do this every few days and in time you will have removed the algae and what ever nutrient that is causing it. Once stable you should not have any problems.

SoonerFan732
03/10/2006, 06:19 AM
I will siphon what I can out soon.

Tim,

I added the Maracyn (about 1/4 of the recommended dose). The water is fairly cloudly now and all the corals contracted (mostly soft corals) except the GSP, the anemones expelled most of their water and my pH has dropped to 7.8. The snails, crabs, and fish seem unaffected so far. The mushrooms and ricordia look particularly stressed (most of there mouths look different than normal). The other corals look like they do when the lights are off.

Are these normal responses? Should I continue with this method or turn the skimmer back on and do some water changes?

Thanks!

SoonerFan732
03/12/2006, 07:50 PM
Thanks everyone for all your input on this matter! This is a excellent club for help with saltwater aquariums.

The cyanobacteria is gone. Thanks Tim for the tip on Maracyn. The Maracyn cleared it up completely within one day. I have performed a few water changes since then trying to get it out of the system. Most corals have opened back up and the anemones are back to normal. My Hammer, Torch, and Candycane corals still haven't fully recovered, but they seem to be better then when I added the Maracyn. The Maracyn really drives the skimmer crazy. It took about a 60% water change before I could even run it without the collection cup filling up in one minute.

Now I only have green algae left. I need to find something that will eat it up. I have a ton of snails, hermits, and one Yellow Tang but the green algae still grows well. The green algae isn't nearly and nasty as the Cyanobacteria though.

scott0615
03/13/2006, 10:51 PM
Keep in mind you put a "bandage" on the underlying problem. The antibiotic you used killed off the nuisance algae, however it did not solve the problem [typically dissolved nutrients/organics]. I would recommend overdoing chemical filtration to strip your water of organics. Purigen, Polyfilters, a good grade of carbon, and a phosphate remover to start. Frequent water changes would also be beneficial. You don't want this stuff to keep coming back..

SoonerFan732
03/14/2006, 06:39 AM
Thanks Scott! I have added a refugium and cleaned off most off the rocks. I think part of the problem has been that I haven't been removing the stuff that has collected on the rocks. I have been using carbon for the past couple of months (I wasn't before). I have also increased the flow inside the main display and changed my old PC bulbs. My skimmer seems to be working better lately also. I am also going to keep up with my water changes as I have neglected them somewhat.

Hopefully I am removing the source, only time will tell.

Thanks!

mskohl
03/14/2006, 10:05 AM
sounds like you've addressed the usuall culprits and zapped the cyano. I hope it's gone for good. It is a relief to not have to deal with it, isn't it?

SoonerFan732
03/14/2006, 10:37 AM
Yeah, the cyano was covering everything. Its so much better now. I hope it stays away.

Now I just need to scrub this green algae off the rocks and hopefully the clean up crew and refugium will keep it to an acceptable level.

SoonerFan732
03/21/2006, 06:54 AM
Well the Cyanobacteria is coming back already. I really need to find the source.

What else can I do here?

I have changed all the bulbs, increased flow, my skimmer is working much better now, I added a refugium, I have performed several water changes and removed debris from the rocks.

VCoo71
03/21/2006, 08:38 AM
you may just need to give the chaeto some time....or you could also try runnning a phosphate removing type of media

you said your using ro/di do you have a tds meter?

nothing good happens quick in a reeftank....doh!

charlie

SoonerFan732
03/21/2006, 08:43 AM
That's the truth!

I do have a TDS meter and I checked the RO/DI water a week or two ago and it still read 0. My phosphates are still at 0.1 PPM. I have never seen a different reading on my test kit though in 8 months. Perhaps I should get another test kit.

I was just hoping the cyano wouldn't come back so quickly to give me some time to allow the refugium to start working properly. It grows so quickly. I imagine in a week it will be as bad as it was before. It was everywhere.

I should add some phosphate removing media, what do you recommend?

VCoo71
03/21/2006, 08:57 AM
you could try the phosgaurd beads in a filter bag
there much safer then the GFO binders such as rowaphos or phosban which you would need a phosphate reactor like the two little fishes one

charlie

SoonerFan732
03/21/2006, 11:25 AM
Thanks Charlie! I will look into getting some.

scott0615
03/21/2006, 11:13 PM
I would recommend overdoing chemical filtration to strip your water of organics. Purigen, Polyfilters, a good grade of carbon, and a phosphate remover to start. Frequent water changes would also be beneficial. You don't want this stuff to keep coming back..