secret ingredients?????

[Bebo77]

i know about Zeo and Prodibio but what else are you experts adding to your tanks (aside from regular water changes and calcium) to your tanks to make your SPS POP!!!!???

any secrets???? spill them...

[dymaxiun]

Light... Lots of light.....

[dymaxiun]

And also i have hired a few fish from the Red Sea to feed the corals too....

[Horace]

The best tank I have ever seen with my own eyes (but is not far behind Iwan's tank) uses purely Zeovit products. Which ones are making the biggest difference I have no idea. He also adds reef chili like once a week but I do that too and I dont get nearly his results so I dont think that helps much, if at all. He never doses phyto or anything like that either. I think its pretty much all about low nutrients, good light, and good flow. Im sure the extra aminos and the CV helps a bit too. Some say that has oyster eggs and other stuff in it, but noone really knows but the manufactuer :(.

Im giving the CV and AAHC a try in the next couple weeks and hope to see some difference.

[drake66]

there's been a thread on feeding cyclopeeze with increased results of growth and color documented by 'frankysreef', i'm going to try that sometime next week and see how it does ;)

[Horace]

Well reef chili has quite a bit of cyclopeeze in it and I havent noticed any significant difference using it and not. I think Cyclopeeze is MUCH too big for most sps to ingest. Most of it just floats to the surface anyway. If anything I think he may be getting better results from an increase in microfauna, not the SPS directly taking up the cyclo

[turtlespd]

you do nothing! buy some corals from reliable places and set it and forget it! In time youll gain the colors you want. It is very difficult to expect poping colors from a tank no older than 6 months. I found that colors seem best when i have left a piece a lone for 6-8 months on some. All that crazy bacteria is just too much for me. If you check out all the nice tanks most just keep in check their husbandary, that is really the key. If you can keep everthing as stable as possible, the colors will come.

[Kip]

i wouldnt say that "i have it down"... but i am seeing good results with high import-high export methodology

[doody]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6921090#post6921090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
i wouldnt say that "i have it down"... but i am seeing good results with high import-high export methodology

Details my friend.

[Bebo77]

yes share.... thats why i started this thread... if someone is or has something that is working tell us...

[Kip]

this has been discussed in other threads.....

but it has been a trend to run really sterile/low nutrient tanks as of late. (wet skimming, super flow to take out particles, GFO, then the whole BB movement) Seems that this has been focused on so specifically that the fact that corals need some nutrients in the water has been overlooked. (many have mentioned it, it just doesnt stand out as much as the info on how to run a low nutrient tank)

I am no phD, not an author, not marine biologist (and i dont play one on the internet)... but it seems that in all of this fancy equipment and water stripping methodology that we've forgotten that corals need some poop and other nutrients in the water. Tough part is finding that fine line b/w having enough food in the water for corals and having too much food in the water that fuels algae, masked colors, and impeded growth.

Everybody's tank is gonna be different. How much you should feed or how much poop you should leave in the water is gonna depend upon coral load, fish load, equipment, and general tank husbandry.

Nope.... .sorry.. no silver bullet here.... just consider.....

... if you dont like the looks of your coral....
-has it been in your tank a fair enough time, under constant conditions for you to make a fair assessment?
-if it is brown... stays brown... wont grow... but all other parameters suit its needs... then too many nutrients.
-if it is light, colors arent well saturated, and you know it can look better (you got a frag from a buddy and his looks awesome)... then the coral is probably starving.
-if you've reduced nutrients and the coral doesnt look good and you've increased nutritents and the coral doesnt look good... you may just have to accept the fact that you have a naturally dull or a naturally light colored coral

think about the all-magical zeo method.... you strip the water to near sterility, then you constantly add a food source back into the tank.

i think acro keepers are always gonna be chasing colors... its what makes stony keeping challenging.

You guys asked... these are just my opinions... take them as you will.

[Amphiprionocellaris]

The best tanks that I have seen (in person and otherwise) used a balanced "whole picture" approach. They focused on setting up an as-close-to-complete-as-possible ecosystem. The corals really seem to enjoy that. And, although I keep only a few SPS, my tank, which uses the same methods, looks great.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6920132#post6920132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by turtlespd
you do nothing! buy some corals from reliable places and set it and forget it! In time youll gain the colors you want. It is very difficult to expect poping colors from a tank no older than 6 months. I found that colors seem best when i have left a piece a lone for 6-8 months on some.
I very much agree. People want to set up a tank, have long-term results immediately.

My focus is much like Kip's, where it's both low-nutrient and well fed. IMO, I've had pretty good results with a `fish mush' food that's a mix of many things.

It's a delicate balance - feeding well while keeping nutrient levels undetectable - but IMO that's what the best tanks hold in common.

As for Acropora being able to take cyclops-eeze, mine here seems to have captured some - and whose slime has caught another.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/554/28196messenteries0.jpg

Acropora might have only a tiny bit of flesh on it, but that doesn't mean food will hurt. It's the dissolved nutrient part - which heavy export should handle removing.

[Horace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6921499#post6921499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
this has been discussed in other threads.....

but it has been a trend to run really sterile/low nutrient tanks as of late. (wet skimming, super flow to take out particles, GFO, then the whole BB movement) Seems that this has been focused on so specifically that the fact that corals need some nutrients in the water has been overlooked. (many have mentioned it, it just doesnt stand out as much as the info on how to run a low nutrient tank)

I am no phD, not an author, not marine biologist (and i dont play one on the internet)... but it seems that in all of this fancy equipment and water stripping methodology that we've forgotten that corals need some poop and other nutrients in the water. Tough part is finding that fine line b/w having enough food in the water for corals and having too much food in the water that fuels algae, masked colors, and impeded growth.

Everybody's tank is gonna be different. How much you should feed or how much poop you should leave in the water is gonna depend upon coral load, fish load, equipment, and general tank husbandry.

Nope.... .sorry.. no silver bullet here.... just consider.....

... if you dont like the looks of your coral....
-has it been in your tank a fair enough time, under constant conditions for you to make a fair assessment?
-if it is brown... stays brown... wont grow... but all other parameters suit its needs... then too many nutrients.
-if it is light, colors arent well saturated, and you know it can look better (you got a frag from a buddy and his looks awesome)... then the coral is probably starving.
-if you've reduced nutrients and the coral doesnt look good and you've increased nutritents and the coral doesnt look good... you may just have to accept the fact that you have a naturally dull or a naturally light colored coral

think about the all-magical zeo method.... you strip the water to near sterility, then you constantly add a food source back into the tank.

i think acro keepers are always gonna be chasing colors... its what makes stony keeping challenging.

You guys asked... these are just my opinions... take them as you will.

I think you have it EXACTLY right here. My tank has been very low nutrients for a long time, and ever since I started feeding my fish a bit more food and I added a couple more fish, the corals have started growing. I have a few other issues right now, but overall my SPS look pretty darn good right now. They could look better but I am working on a few other factors atm to help that, mainly stability of tank parameters is my current focus.

[fishypets]

I also have a problem with poor color but have good growth. My tank isn't BB but has super low nutrients. I started feeding every day (oytster eggs, mixture of fresh shrimp, mussel and clam blended) and my color is slowing comming on. I also upgraded my skimmer to handle the extra load. So far so good.

[foshizzle]

I have a problem with lightening in my tank. New frags lose deep colors and become drab over a few weeks.

Is it possible that nutrients are low enough to cause this when I still have to clean the glass every 3 days?

[Kip]

i dont think you can make a fair assessment of color on a new frag that's been in your tank a few weeks

JMO

[onthefly]

After my "Fading SPS color" thread...I tried to find out as much as I could on the matter. I added 2 small fish and began feeding heavily. I was "floored" at the quantity of food (selcon, mysis, and CE) I could add and not see an effect on water quality. Slowly, my colors and growth are coming back. In fact, I'll be adding 2 more fish in a couple weeks.

In my ever quest for knowledge, this is what I came up with: 1) Corals get ~ 80% of their metabolites (mostly sugars and carbs) through photosynthesis and the metabolism of the zoox. populations within the tissues. The other 20% (proteins, fats, etc....all the things photosynthesis can't make) come from predation.

The important "missing link" that I came up with, Zoox need a nitrogen source in order for photosynthesis to work! This nitrogen source comes from the proteins provided by predation. Remember, symbiosis is a two-way street......If your tank becomes nitrogen limited, then zoox populations will decline....so will your colors and eventually the health of the coral! It's that simple!

[Me No Nemo]

I use a good skimmer and feed DT's Oyster eggs, Coral Vibrance (excellent coral food IMO), cyclopeez and lots of flow. Of course, good lighting is a must. I feed minimally every night and alternate just before lights out and about 20 minutes after lights out. I've also found that keeping my magnesium between 1400 and 1450 has made a huge difference. GL, Marcye

[justinzimm]

Wow, I like this thread. I agree with most people here that we are starving our aquariums. I noticed better growth, color and PE the more I feed. In college I took a few graduate level classes on coral biology and symbiosis. In these we were taught that coral and most cnidarians can absorb nitrates and phosphates across external membranes. This makes me think that we don't need the cyclopees and artemia, as long as the water contains dissolved organics (nitrates, phosphates). Also, I've never been 100% sure that SPS can ingest the foods we are feeding them. I tend to believe that these foods are either eaten by other animals, liquified in our pumps or decay to produce the dissolved organics our corals are using.

Right now I'm like feeding fresh phyto. to the corals. This is because I'm thinking if SPS can "catch" their food the phyto would be about the size they would be looking for. Also, the water the phyto. is grown and comes in is equivalent to marine miracle grow. It has all the nutrients that algae (or coral) needs to grow. It's also in the right ratios for most animal/plant growth. Someone should experiment with just adding the algae food the aquarium and skip the phyto culturing step. It might work just as good.

If anyone has ever went diving and looked at rocks and substrate on a coral reef it is 100% encrusted with life. In our aquariums we get maybe half that with the majority being coraline algae. Why?

Finally, adding these nutrients are great if your other params. are good and the animals are able to use them. If your numbers (alk, pH, calcium) are out of whack or your system is unstable then the animals/corals might not be uptaking these nutrients or even adding nutrients back into the water. So heavy feeding is only good in healthy aquariums and not sick ones. It also has to be increased slowly and not at once. If we are feeding heavy and getting high nitrates and phosphate readings our aquarium might not be as healthy as we think.

Just my thoughts,
Justin

[kimoyo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6926832#post6926832 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
In my ever quest for knowledge, this is what I came up with: 1) Corals get ~ 80% of their metabolites (mostly sugars and carbs) through photosynthesis and the metabolism of the zoox. populations within the tissues. The other 20% (proteins, fats, etc....all the things photosynthesis can't make) come from predation.

The important "missing link" that I came up with, Zoox need a nitrogen source in order for photosynthesis to work! This nitrogen source comes from the proteins provided by predation. Remember, symbiosis is a two-way street......If your tank becomes nitrogen limited, then zoox populations will decline....so will your colors and eventually the health of the coral! It's that simple!

Thru pathways sps corals assimilate ammonium from the water for nitrogen. They don't need predation and I believe its more like 3%.

[onthefly]

sps corals assimilate ammonium from the water for nitrogen.
Are you suggesting that NH3/NH4 levels are high enough in out systems to supply a nitrogen source large enough for all the zoox populations? With all the nutrient poor/lightening tanks around I would disagree.

They don't need predation and I believe its more like 3%.
I used the word predation "loosely". Grouped in with that, I was also including the absorption of DOC's.

Regardless, zoox populations within the corals are declining in uber-low nutient systems. Less Zoox, less color....that simple!

[kimoyo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6932934#post6932934 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
Regardless, zoox populations within the corals are declining in uber-low nutient systems. Less Zoox, less color....that simple!

I didn't realize this was simple but let me ask you this. If zoox populations decline so much (which it might), how does photosynthesis account for 80% of the corals nutrition?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6932934#post6932934 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
Are you suggesting that NH3/NH4 levels are high enough in out systems to supply a nitrogen source large enough for all the zoox populations? With all the nutrient poor/lightening tanks around I would disagree.

I used the word predation "loosely". Grouped in with that, I was also including the absorption of DOC's.

I try not to suggest anything on RC anymore.

Exactly how do you think these Dissolve Organic Compounds are used by the coral?

Bacteria live on surfaces. Corals have a slimey coating on them that house bacteria. Some bacteria (heterotrophic) capture organics and break them down into ammonia/ammonium. The coral then assimilates that ammonia into itself to use an N source. Thats how you have nutrient poor tanks with corals still growing. Still simple?

[onthefly]

Well, the process is anything but simple........but what creates color in corals? Zoox....right? Can we agree on that? That's simple!

So, here's the scenario: my tank Faded colors thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=697565) with perfectly stable parameters, excellent lighting, good husbandry, an excellent source for corals (Upscales, so no shipping involved), but no external food source (no fish therefore no food needed).

So, I buy a gorgeous coral from Travis, after acclimation and interceptor dip, coral goes into the tank. Within minutes, PE looks great, within days I can already see a nice spread at the base and growth tips. Sometime around week 3-4, the coral loses PE, color begins to turn a drabby version of the original, and decalcification begins (skeletal structure of the coral begins to shrink). IMHO, during the first few weeks the coral utilized as much of its energy stores as it could, but in the end the coral began starving. Why?....because there is not enough nitrogen (or something) present in the system to sustain the bacterial and zoox populations.

I'm not a coral biologist and don't know about surface populations of bacteria or what processes or metabolic "pathways" they contribute to. If there is not enough material (DOC, ammonium, whatever) present in the water column, bacterial and zoox population will decrease until a new "carrying capacity" is reached. Unfortunately, I believe that the new CC is too low to sustain the 80% (or 97% if you prefer) of photosyntheic demands and the corals look like it.

[kimoyo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6933855#post6933855 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
Well, the process is anything but simple........but what creates color in corals? Zoox....right? Can we agree on that? That's simple!

Um, no. The color your talking about doesn't come from the zoox. The color coming from the zoox is brown and thats not what you want.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6933855#post6933855 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
So, here's the scenario: my tank Faded colors thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=697565) with perfectly stable parameters, excellent lighting, good husbandry, an excellent source for corals (Upscales, so no shipping involved), but no external food source (no fish therefore no food needed).

So, I buy a gorgeous coral from Travis, after acclimation and interceptor dip, coral goes into the tank. Within minutes, PE looks great, within days I can already see a nice spread at the base and growth tips. Sometime around week 3-4, the coral loses PE, color begins to turn a drabby version of the original, and decalcification begins (skeletal structure of the coral begins to shrink). IMHO, during the first few weeks the coral utilized as much of its energy stores as it could, but in the end the coral began starving. Why?....because there is not enough nitrogen (or something) present in the system to sustain the bacterial and zoox populations.

The first thing I thought while reading about your situation and seeing your from Portland is, why doesn't he just ask Mike (Mojo). Then I look at your thread and in the 4th post Bomber has already suggested that. Go to www.reeffrontiers.com and ask for Mike (He won TOTM here a while back). They have what seems to be a very good local reef club there and will most likely come over to your house to see whats wrong. I know Mike knows this because I've talked to him about it.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6933855#post6933855 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
I'm not a coral biologist and don't know about surface populations of bacteria or what processes or metabolic "pathways" they contribute to. If there is not enough material (DOC, ammonium, whatever) present in the water column, bacterial and zoox population will decrease until a new "carrying capacity" is reached. Unfortunately, I believe that the new CC is too low to sustain the 80% (or 97% if you prefer) of photosyntheic demands and the corals look like it.

I'm not a coral biologist either but this still isn't correct.

[tbass]

awesome reading keep it going. thanks for the education

[64Ivy]

If I may chime in for a moment, imo, the most underused 'additive' in regards to our tanks these days is patience. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone move a frag to get it to color up, only to move it to a 'better spot' a month later, then back again a few weeks later. Heck, I wouldn't color up either! I'd be too afraid I did something wrong and get myself exiled to the backyard. Same with actual additives, i.e.: If the cyano is still there after several weeks (in some cases, days), we're ready change the product, the dosage, or the amount. In this case, it would even be hard to tell which method DID work because by that time, we may already be three methods past it. I think we have to remember that our charges aren't a part of our ' gotta have it now' culture and things don't fix themselves in minutes. As long as we keep our water parameters in check, our lighting good, and our water movement sufficient, I believe we've added everything we need.

[MiddletonMark]

Well, well put :thumbsup:

While I've been lucky to have some corals not miss a beat when I first put them in my tank ... I've also had my share that seem to take 3-6 months to do squat more than look more brown + sit there. But a year down the road ... out of nowhere there's that beauty you talked the guy into trading.

Joe started a good thread about this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=628974

I've personally struggled with moving stuff too much - with a smaller tank, it's too tempting to pack every inch ... and change things constantly. Yet that means I'm constantly re-acclimating all my corals, with growth and color likely not their best. :rolleyes:

IMO, great point. Time has proven to be a key ingredient to my success ... and as I figure I'd love to have these same corals in 5 years [if not 20] - giving a new frag a year in one spot to grow, thrive, and finally color isn't ideal, but can be effective.

[tbass]

64 Ivy,

THink you hit it on the head , but the patients thing is probably the hard part of keeping a reef aquarium .

[onthefly]

Thanks for great points Paul! I didn't realize that color was indepent of zoox.

PNWMAS is a great local club with some stellar members, I've done my share of trading with several members. Perhaps it's time to invite someone over for a beer :)

Although my specific situation has reversed itself just by adding fish/feeding to the tank, I don't think "patience" (in my specific situation) would have improved the tank. By 2-3 months in my system, after losing PE and most of there color, corals began a VERY slow base up necrosis. Since I started feeding, the necrosis has stopped, color is coming back (which seems to be the slowest thing to recover), and I'm getting growth again.

Good thread!

[onthefly]

Mark - From Joe's thread "They don't really loose color, but pretty much sit"

I wonder, since Joe's corals kept there color....if the "patience" thing is not applicable, especially when coral health (like in my case) is/was declining.

Before I get bashed over the head with a "patience" club.....I totally agree with all the comments about people giving corals time to adjust...so, I'm not disagreeing with you guys on that.

[kimoyo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6938330#post6938330 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
Thanks for great points Paul!

Just hope I helped :).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6938330#post6938330 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onthefly
I didn't realize that color was indepent of zoox.

Just to clarify, I didn't say this. I said, "The color your talking about doesn't come from the zoox. The color coming from the zoox is brown and thats not what you want".

[Bebo77]

ok guys i have the good water quality, good lights and a healthy supply of patience, so now what? I am starting zeo this weekend along with prodibio( high export)... now what should i "feed the corals" i have frozen cyclop-eeze, frozen oyster eggs and frozen mysis.. any other foods that you guys have found that work for SPS corals?

thanks

[Charlie Davidson]

for feedings, I use frozen Rotifers plus cyclop-eeze. as for the secret- good skimmer, good water mantenance ( carbon, rowa, etc).