New Free Tank, almost a good deal

[MCary]

Aquired a 225 gallon tank for 0 duckets. Unfortunately it has a leak in one corner. I was going to go against wisdom and remove 8 inches of the silicone bead from the x,y,z axis and rebead it. But I have removed silicone before and this stuff came off way too easy. So I've decided to do as I am told and remove the enite inside bead and re-caulk it with some new and improved silicone.

My question, Is the thickness of the silicone important? I mean within reason, not paper thin. I assume the width is important. Say 3/4-1inch on bottom and sides. But for instance if I use the old wet finger technique to smooth the bead, will there be enough silicone in the corner.

Mike

[hllywd]

I wonder if All Glass or another manufacturer might have ideas to help you... In my experience the seal between the panels is very important not just the bead.... 225 gallons would be a lot on the floor...

[windsor-aquatic]

Your suggestion of removing all the old silicone and replacing it should work out fine; it's the silicone beading that makes the tank water-tight. Be sure to clean the glass thoroughly with meths or similar before applying the new silicone. Once the seams are done, I would suggest applying a forther bit in each of the 4 corners, by way of reinforcement. If you want to get a straight finish on the seams, instead of your finger try using the rounded end of a socket extension; it takes a little practice to judge how much silicone to apply, but the finish, when done correctly, will look quite professional.

[BeanAnimal]

The bead ensure water tightness, but doesnt the thin film between the panes crete the strength?

[windsor-aquatic]

No, the strength is determined by the choice of glass thickness, bracing bars or a combination of both.

[hllywd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6958070#post6958070 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by windsor-aquatic
Your suggestion of removing all the old silicone and replacing it should work out fine; it's the silicone beading that makes the tank water-tight. Be sure to clean the glass thoroughly with meths or similar before applying the new silicone. Once the seams are done, I would suggest applying a forther bit in each of the 4 corners, by way of reinforcement. If you want to get a straight finish on the seams, instead of your finger try using the rounded end of a socket extension; it takes a little practice to judge how much silicone to apply, but the finish, when done correctly, will look quite professional.

Respectfully I will disagree. I've personally tried my hand at resealing a few tanks. doing the inside bead only, in my experience, produced unreliable results. I think I was pretty meticulous removing the old silicone and cleaning the glass prior to putting the new silicone on. The most reliable way was the PIA method of taking the tank apart and resetting the glass. One of the biggest problems is that silicone doesn't adhere very well to silicone so where the new stuff overlaps the old you endup with a weak spot. The largest tank I ever tried to reseal never got water in it after I fixed it since I dropped it getting it out of the truck....

I do like your tooling idea!

Like I said a 225 isn't a "throw away" tank. I'd like to here what a manufacturer has to say about repairs.

Tim

[rutledgek]

I built a sump and had a leak out of a side. Running a new bead downt he seam did seal it and I have no structural problems. Though a 20g sump is a far cry from a 225.

[MCary]

Thanks tons for the replies. Last night I removed the silicone from the inside. Completely taking down the tank and resealing is a last option. The silicone came off surprisingly easy which makes me glad I'm replacing it. I ordered some all-glass silicone. I've used 100% silicone before that said "safe for food use" and "not for aquarium use" and it worked fine but I went with the recommended stuff just for laughs.

Not sure I understand the socket extension thing. You run it down the seam with the extension basiclly oriented lengthwise with the round edge down? Do you wet it? What about a rubber spatula? I bought a can of acetone that I had planned on cleaning the glass with, is that okay?

Thanks again,

Mike

PS I planned on masking off the area with the bead to have nice straight edges and avoid slop on the glass. It this an unnecessary step using the ol socket ext. method?

[windsor-aquatic]

Re. socket extension: apply a line of silicone, wet the end of the socket extension (the rounded end) and run it up the seam, once only. Finish off the corners as mentioned earlier by hand.

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6958378#post6958378 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by windsor-aquatic
No, the strength is determined by the choice of glass thickness, bracing bars or a combination of both.


Not to be arguementative... but you lost me here.

I have seen a number of large glass tanks with NO perimeter bracing (thick enough glass to prevent failure due to deflection of the long panes). What does the glass thickness have to do with the bond between panes (unless of course the film of silicone is the strongest part of the joint!).

Are you saying that dry butt jounts with a bead if silicone are as strong as wet joined panes with a bead if silicone? It just ins't going to happen. I would contend (and have read someplace) that it is just the opposite. A properly joined corner will have a film of silicone between the panes, and will be almost as strong as the same joint with a "bead" or "fillet" of silicone applied. From my understanding the fillet is to add a bit of extra strength, but more to ensure a water tight and fairly protected joint.

Thoughts?

[MCary]

Not answering your question Bean, just an aside. The glass on this tank is 3/4" and it has a top center brace. The silicone butt joints are then say 6 feet long and 3/4 inch wide for the longest edge. The amount of pressure it would take to rip apart that joint must be huge. Plus the bracing and the internal bead would add to its strength.

I do know that the size of the glass has more to do with the contact area needed to hold than the strength of the glass. I'm sure 1/2 inch glass would easily hold 225 gallons without breaking, but the seams may give due to smaller contact surface. Or am I wrong?

Mike

[69vette]

The maximum bond strength with silicon rubber is acheived with a bond thickness of .004". The recommended bond thickness is .004"-.016". As the thickness rises, the bond strength diminishes.

Obviously the fillets don't fall into this category, but it would be interesting to build a tank with just the fillets and see what happens when it's filled with water.

[MCary]

Cool, I have an aquarium manufactuer and an engineer helping me. Where else can you get that sort of help for free, I ask you?

Thanks guys

[BeanAnimal]

69Vette... that is what I thought. I am not sure where I learned that, but it is something that stuck with me over the years.

[hllywd]

"not for aquarium use"

....usually means the silicone contains a fungicide or anti-microbial substance to preevent mildew and the like. Usually bad things when it comes to marine critters...:cool:

Remember too with what ever you do, just because you glop more sealant on doesn't mean the joint is stronger.:cool:

Good luck! Let us know what happens....

[bassnman11]

I tape off the seams with blue tape, apply the silicone and use the corner of a old credit card to smoothe. You can change the radius on the corner to suit your project. After it sets up, peel the tape for a pro looking job.

[hllywd]

Corona... I have an Aunt and Uncle there... Who you retired from bassnman?

[AggieBrandon]

I use the backside of a plastic spoon to smooth out my silicone...works pretty good :)

[hahnmeister]

FWIW, I have 'rebuilt' about 3 aquariums now. Each time I learned a bit more of course. Replacing the fillet on the inside is of little use IMO. The fillet itself is of little use on a well-built glass tank. I have seen glass tanks made without the fillet all together, and not only were the corners nicer looking, but the strength is just as good...like 69vette pointed out, its the silicone smooshed in between the panels of glass that gives the strength and will also give the seal in a well made aquarium.

If you want to do it right, remove the entire panel.

And for easy cleaning, use acetone. It eats up silicone fast and allows you to simply rub it off with a rag. It works great at cleaning up the glass and then off you go!

For the fillets, you have a few options. J. Turner, ORA and RAS founder, puts a super fat silicone 'rope' into every corner, and then comes back with a special razor...pretty much a straight razor bent in two places to make the silicone into a triangle/ flat diagonal bead. I use a piece of PVC...larger pipe like 3/4 or 1" for larger tanks, and 1/2" for smaller. I run the edge of the pipe along the bead after I squeeze it into the corner. Later on, there will be a 'rope' of silicone along the outside edges of the fillet that simply gets razor bladed out. The other option would be to simply practice with a caulk gun on enough pieces that by the time you have to use it, you can lay a neat bead in one motion of the caulk gun without any retouch. This takes some talent...but if you practive on scrap for a bit...youll see what I mean.

[MCary]

100% silcone that is "safe for food use" does not have any antifungicides and is adentical to aquarium silicone. I am convinced that the "not for aquarium use" statement is a liability issure. They don't want to get sued if the seam fails.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6967017#post6967017 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
100% silcone that is "safe for food use" does not have any antifungicides and is adentical to aquarium silicone. I am convinced that the "not for aquarium use" statement is a liability issure. They don't want to get sued if the seam fails.

Thats exactly what it is. GE/etc doesnt want to spend the $$ to have some of their silicons certified for food usage.

The only difference between GE silicon I and II is cure time, and cure strength. Both are safe as long as you use Windows and Doors, and not Kitchens and Bathrooms.

[hllywd]

hmmm..... not sure why you'd take the chance when the cost is nearly the same if not identical, even if the we think liability is the issue I don't get it...:confused: I'd bet if you were to call GE's customer service people they would even reccomend their correct product for the application... but I could be wrong:cool:

[RichConley]

People ahve been using the windows and doors stuff for years. Its not an issue of it being the same price. The windows and doors tubes are about $3 at HD, to get a full caulking tube full of AGA silicone is about $17 around here. If you're gonna use multiple tubes, that adds up.

[hllywd]

Local LFS had All-Glass for about 6 bucks last time I looked the GE I use is $1 to $1.50 cheaper. Not gonna break the bank here:cool: Last tubes of GE I bought for work were ~$5 @ Lowes.

[hllywd]

I look at it just like buying black and white label bread.... aint gonna do it. But others have been doing it for years... :D

[MCary]

I bought aquarium silicone from F&S. Takes about three days to get. Cost about 6 bucks a tube. I'm not worried about the stuff you get at the hardware store for windows and doors. Either/or, whatever matches your comfort zone.

[hahnmeister]

The best I have seen is bigalsonline. I just dont mess around with trying to find which silicone is which. Over the years the formulas can change and problems can just be avoided by buying the stuff thats made for aquariums. C'mon guys...were talking a few extra dollars or so on a hobby that costs us hundreds a month...easily. If the aquarium suff is formulated to be the strongest bond according to companies...then I will believe them...why not? I used to use GE silicone 1 for K&B, supposedly this is good for aquariums. But why risk it I figured? You can get the clear and black silicone from Big Al's and at only a few $$$ more per 10oz. tube than regular stuff....

WHO CARES?!?!

[69vette]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6970883#post6970883 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Over the years the formulas can change and problems can just be avoided by buying the stuff thats made for aquariums.
It's not made specifically for aquariums. It's just repackaged.

If the aquarium suff is formulated to be the strongest bond according to companies...then I will believe them...why not?
It's not a different formula, it's the same stuff.

WHO CARES?!?!
I care, if I'm being ripped off.

[rutledgek]

There are a few products that are just repackaged. name brand vs generic food, OTC medication, Clothing, Sea Veggies fish food. Just make sure the silicone doesnt include any fungicides or the like. I know one of the GE silicones are often used in the DIY hobby. I built a sump but I think I used the aquarium stuff.

[jay24k]

I've always used regular silicone in my sumps. Some that I had to run for 5 hrs after seaming it up. I wasn't doing it for leaking issues though. Although 1100 gph gushing through there hasn't cracked it or leaked it yet.

I agree with the rest. Alot will say not to use the mold inhibitors but I've used them all and I've seen any issues. Plenty of stuff out there with the same ingredients as the name brand. Just depends if you want to get conned.

[rutledgek]

Look at Southdown play sand. It says right on the package not for aquarium use. Many of these manufactureres sell their stuff to be repackages for specialty use. Look at Rowaphos, granular ferric oxide hydroxide, is commonly used in large water filtration systems for cyanide removal. If you can find a place to order it from it works out to be cheaper than the rowaphos by weight. However many of these places have to sign an agreement that they will not sell it for aquarium uses.

[jay24k]

MEant to say I've not seen any issues.

[MCary]

Like I said, it all boils down to comfort zones. The person buying the stuff is assuming the risk. Its really no one elses business to tell him he's wrong. Just do us all a favor and if something does go wrong with an experiment let us know here. By anouncing that you are doing something you are encouraging others to try it and with that should come with responsibility.

Having said that, I'll try anything. I also hate getting ripped off in the name of hobby products. I know these places need to make money but... I can get a case of Mrs Wages for what Kent wants for one jar. Lets get real for a minute.

Mike

[hllywd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6976202#post6976202 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Like I said, it all boils down to comfort zones. The person buying the stuff is assuming the risk. Its really no one elses business to tell him he's wrong. Just do us all a favor and if something does go wrong with an experiment let us know here. By anouncing that you are doing something you are encouraging others to try it and with that should come with responsibility.

Having said that, I'll try anything. I also hate getting ripped off in the name of hobby products. I know these places need to make money but... I can get a case of Mrs Wages for what Kent wants for one jar. Lets get real for a minute.

Mike

I will reiterate... I think your idea is unreliable.... from experience!!!
Aquired a 225 gallon tank for 0 duckets. Unfortunately it has a leak in one corner. I was going to go against wisdom and remove 8 inches of the silicone bead from the x,y,z axis and rebead it. But I have removed silicone before and this stuff came off way too easy. So I've decided to do as I am told and remove the enite inside bead and re-caulk it with some new and improved silicone.

I have tried removing the entire inside seal without resetting the panels but putting a new silicone bead on each seam and ended up with a wet floor six months down the road from the same place it leaked originally. I'm just guessing that 225 gallons is a LOT of water to find on the floor after a weekend away!!! Why cut corners?

:cool:

[MCary]

Actually the leak was a small pinhole that caused a very small drip once the tank was 3/4 full. At most I would say a couple of gallons would leak over a weekend.

[Crusty Old Shellback]

I redid the seam in a 150 with no problems. Held up for a year before I sold the tank. As far as I know, it's still running.

All I did was remove the old siclicon from the inside anlong with slightly seperating the seam. I cleand out all of the old stuff and cleaned the glass with alcahol.

After it dried, I put in a bead of scilicone in the seam, removed some spreades i had and put a light clamping pressure on it to push the seam back together. I then put a small bead on the inside and smother it out. Let it cure for 24 hours and had the tank back up and running in just a few days.

Like I said, worked great for over a year before I got rid of it.

Good luck.

aAs far as the issue with name brand/non name brand, I'll give you a little insight. I did a little probing once while looking for southdown on the west coast. ALL of the arrignate sand comes from one mine in the carabian. The company that sells it as live sand for aquarium use has a exclusive agrement with the mine that they cannot sell it for aquarium use to any other company. So to make money, they dry it and sell it to another packaging company as play sand with the understanding that they must put a disclamer on the package that it's "not for aquarium use". It's how they get around the exclusive contract with the aquarium company. But it's all the SAME SAND from the SAME MINE. ;)

So do you want to pay 30 bucks for a 20 lb bag or 10 bucks for a 50 lb bag? Your choice. ;)

[Chris Pierce]

I have repaired two tanks, a 90 and a 30 which I have running in my living room right now. For the 90 I took the panel out and ran a bead for the butt joint, then I taped the side into place with slight pressure. After that I ran a bead up each inside corner of the tank. I used silicone from Home Depot, now two years later I have had no problems. On the 30g I only cut out the two inside corners without removing the panel and reapplied the silicone. After about 1 year the side that I repaired developed a very slow leak, just enough to keep the corner of the tank wet. If I had to do it over again, I would remove the panel and do it right.

[spykes]

how do you guys remove the silcone between the two panels. Not the triangle bead inside of the tank, but the silcone inside of the two panels. I had a very hard time using a razor blade on my test tank, it was chipping the glass everytime the razor blade was in the seam.

[BeanAnimal]

piano wire or guitar string

[gotdibz]

i have used this for my sump...i have had no problem with it ... heres a pic http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/yieyo/filter.jpg

[spykes]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7235816#post7235816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
piano wire or guitar string

what size piano wire or guitar string? i need something thin enough and wont snap.