View Full Version : How do i stop a snow storm????
I have an emergency situation going on here. I have been having heat problems for a few days, and had a very low PH 7.5. I increased my lime drip to try and boost the PH, now it is snowing in my tank. It has gone from crystal clear to milk in the last hour or two. What if anything can i do?
rdonchann
03/15/2006, 09:21 PM
Read this. It puts it all into perspective. If people will manage Alkalinity and Calcium, the PH will follow along.
http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=48111&highlight=account+calcium
Well, that would help if i was opening a bank account in my tank lol.
rdonchann
03/15/2006, 10:05 PM
I believe you are in the "rules of the bank takes over" stage
Carbon seems to be clearing it. Nothing seems to be distressed at this point, maybe i will dodge a bullet here. I'll read that page and see if i can make sense of it. I haven't run any test yet. I thought the PH issue was just co2 due to the heat issue. It was at 86* at one point 2 days ago. I got the temp back down, but the PH is still just dropping. It was at 8.13 when i turned the drip off a few hours ago, and is already back at 7.8 and still dropping with the lights on.
wherer is your calcium at ?
what calcium are you uesing ?
what have you put in your tank ?
I don't have a calcium kit right now. The only thing i put in my tank is a limewater drip for top off. I don't ever dose chemicals. Just do regular water changes. 50% once a month. I'll have to go and get a new calcium test. All i have right now is no3, KH, and PH. PH is now at 7.75. Lights go out in 20 minutes.
rdonchann
03/15/2006, 10:31 PM
50% in one shot is not that great of an idea for the inhabitants. I am surprised that much of a change at once does not start a new cycle.You can count on the ph and alkalinity crashing before it gets equalled out. Balancing the ph, kh and calcium is not dosing chemicals. It is but it isn't. I consider it water balancing. In my opinion, strontium, iodine, molybendum etc. are chemicals. All of the components are chemicals but some are a necessary evil.
I guess i did add some Kent superbuffer DKH last night which also didn't do anything at all for the PH. I did a 50% water change monday night after the temp hit 86* earlier in the day.
I have always done 50% changes. The bacteria in the tank aren't in the water colum, thier in the rocks and sand. I mix my water a day ahead and match everything.
rdonchann
03/15/2006, 10:38 PM
That works great for the KH. I know, I know they all say it is for PH too. Ph is not something that is directly controlled. If you balance KH and Calcium the PH will mind it's manners. People get in a bind by dumping buffer and trying to control the PH. Before they know it the KH is reading 20 and it locks the PH so there is 0 chance of it moving.
rdonchann
03/15/2006, 10:42 PM
I know where the bacteria is, but I am still not comfortable with taking half of the environment away at one time. I also don't like getting my tank that low, putting the new water in disturbs things etc. If it works for you then do it. I am just not that gutsy.
Put a fan over your tank. The moving air will cool the tank and raise the PH due to O2 exchange. It must be cool and humid there. I bet you have had the doors closed to keep warm which has traped CO2 and moisture in the house. The CO2 will lower the PH and the humidity will make your tank difficult to cool. Try getting some fresh air in the house too and a fan.
I have a fan on my sump 24/7 for cooling. LOL i live in Florida, we have been running A/C for a month to keep cool. I thought it was a co2 problem, due to over heating, but it just keeps going south. I'm sure after the snow storm tonight that it is a calcium alk issue, but don't have any test to check tonight.
Travis L. Stevens
03/16/2006, 08:21 AM
dugg, I pretty much agree on what rdonchann has been saying. I wouldn't add any more of any buffers/additives until you get your Ca and Alkalinity tested.
Though limewater is a great way of dosing Carbonate and Calcium in equal values, your tank might not use it. Your tank might be using more Carbonate than Calcium. Therefore, as you do water changes and add limewater, the Calcium slowly builds up on you. And as your Calcium climbs, your carbonate can't catch up and keeps dropping and then advertently effects your pH. Now, I think you might have low Alkalinity and high Calcium. You are seeing the Calcium percipitating out of your tank. Do you see a lot of gunk forming on warm structures like powerheads and the heater?
See these links for details:
Ideal Parameters - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php
Solving Alk/Ca Problems - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
How to keep your Ca/Alk balanced - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
Basically, limewater is a great, cheap, and effective way to add proportional amounts of Carbonate and Calcium back in to the aquarium. But on an occassion, you will see a tank that needs a helping hand. I recommend having a two part additive system ready on hand as back up. You can choose between Kent system, B-Ionic, Randy Holmes-Farley's home made, or a slew of others.
Well, things aren't looking good today ata all. Everything in the tank looks fine. (how i don't know) This morning the PH was at 7.14, i just changed 5 gallons of water out, and it came up to 7.23. What should i be doing now? Anybody? I have been and am so busy with the grandkids, i haven't had time to breathe, muchless keep up with my tank. I can't possibly get out to get anything until 3pm or so today, and i don't have any additives at all.
rdonchann
03/16/2006, 09:13 AM
The superbuffer that you had will work great for the KH. You need to get a test for KH and a test for calcium. I use reef complete by seachem. But you can't raise the levels that much all at once. It needs to be a gradual thing. Stop worrying about the PH. Get your underlying problems with the KH and calcium fixed and the PH will take care of itself. If it were mine and I had no other kits I would stir up 1 teaspoon of the buffer in a glass of water and add it. Then wait until you can get a couple of test kits this afternoon.
Travis L. Stevens
03/16/2006, 09:27 AM
dugg, you have a bit of good news as well. Your aragonite sand (I think that's what you had) in your tank is actually acting like a buffer right now helping you out. In lower pH situations, it will dissolve and release Alk/Ca back to the aquarium.
I would definitely not worry about things so much until you can get Ca/Alk tested. I don't think you will lose any livestock if it stays like this for a couple days. You may also want to see if your pH monitor is working correctly. Also, though your Alk Buffer will work fine, it might not me the Alk that is low, but rather the Calcium. Hence, why you need to test before you can make a plan of attack.
For what it's worth, for about a month or so I was battling high (16-18 dkh) Alk and low Ca (280-320 ppm) because I added too much pH buffer. Things were doing decent and growing, but not much. Once it got fixed, everything was back to normal. No casualties were involved. Also, pH wise, it isn't uncommon for people that run Ca reactors to have a pH of about 7.8 while all their water parameters are perfect and balanced.
rdonchann
03/16/2006, 09:32 AM
The alkalinity HAS to be real low or the PH would not be reading low. After a storm the ph and alkalinity will both be low.
It will be later today before i can get to a calcium test kit, but i just tested the KH, and it is at 9
Travis L. Stevens
03/16/2006, 09:53 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6967390#post6967390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rdonchann
The alkalinity HAS to be real low or the PH would not be reading low. After a storm the ph and alkalinity will both be low.
Not necessarily true. My Alk was reading high and my pH was reading low (7.8) when I had my problem. But, regardless of where the pH lies, once the Alk/Ca is balanced, it will most likely fix itself.
dugg, just curious, though it's probably pretty warm, have you shut off the AC and opened up the windows in the house to see if there is a big swing in pH readings? Your test of a 9 might mean you have very high Calcium. What brand of salt do you use? Oceanic?
rdonchann
03/16/2006, 10:42 AM
7.8 is low but not what I was meaning by low. Mine may be 8.3 at the end of the day after the lights have been on. In the morning after no lights and activity it may read 7.8 or 7.9 . Alkalinity and ph are tethered together at the hip. where one goes the other must follow within a certain range. If ph is reading low 7's after a snowstorm the alkalinity is without a doubt low.
captbunzo
03/16/2006, 10:47 AM
How are you testing your pH? Color comparison test kits are not horribly accurate. I would recommend a good pH pen (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=9848&N=2004+113074). Yeah, I know, just more to spend money on. But, IMHO, this is one of those items (like a refractometer) that should be considered a must in this hobby.
Also. Pertaining to doing 50% water changes. First, and on an unimportant note, you'd actually be suprised at how much bacteria actually DO live in the water. But yes, the bacteria in your substrate, rock, on PVC pipes, etc, is more then enough to handle the water change.
However, I'd be more concerned about the enormous water change as I believe it is truely impossible to really match parameters. Sure, you might get temperature, salinity & pH to a matching level. But how about everything else? Nitrate, phosphate, calcium, alkalinity, etc? Some of these are bad and some good parameters of our water. However, the change WILL affect the critters involved.
And that's not even beginning to discuss everything in the water that we can't and don't measure. It's important to realize that discussion of the chemicals that we measure is really a generalization. It's a pick of the most important stuff in the water - good and bad.
For a little more on this, read this short article (http://*******.com/l2jxe) by Eric Borneman on the maturation process of a reef tank.
magnesium level I think also works with ca and alk: my tank naturally has a pretty high mg level, maybe because of the rocks I have---not sure---but it means I have to test all 3 to get a real picture of what's going on.
captbunzo
03/16/2006, 10:53 AM
Yes, Magnesium is the third element of the equation. It's balance isn't quite as critical as Calcium / Alk, but should still be monitored.
Try this calculator for more information.
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html
Yes it is warm here, the air is blowing, but we leave our windows and doors open until about 1pm every day. The tank minus the bad pump is running at 78.5*. I use a pinpoint PH monitor, and i calibrated it tuesday to make sure it wasn't just a bad reading. I use crystal sea marine mix salt. Today my water is back to crystal clear, but the ph is still at 7.15. I still haven't tested the calcium yet, bet i would bet it is way high. How would you lower the calcium level? Everything in the tank looks fine except the xenia. It isn't that bad, but not up like normal.
captbunzo
03/16/2006, 11:57 AM
You'd lower Calcium level with a water change. Mix up some low calcium water and use that as your change water. That might require buying a small bag of Instant Ocean, or something like that. Might do some research and find the lowest calcium salt mix possible.
Good deal on the pH monitor. That's good - and that you calibrated it recently. I recalibrated mine recently and found it to have gotten way off. Of course, I haven't been storing it in storage solution like I should. Doing better on that now. :)
Whatever you do, I'd recommend you take it slow, assuming things are doing ok. It'd be worse to shock things again by making a big correction way fast. Remember, nothing good happens fast in this hobby. :)
Travis L. Stevens
03/16/2006, 12:26 PM
I would definitely say do it slow. IF your Ca is high, I might also recommend adding Alk gunk to slowly bring up your Alk to a "balanced" level. Even if that means bringing Alk to 15 dkh to match a 600 ppm Calcium and then let your tank slowly take out Ca/Alk through useage or to do regular water changes then. Basically, make it equal but over done, and then bring it down at equal levels until it is an ideal water parameter.
I'm wondering if your DIY rock wall on the tank might have had an adverse effect on this... :confused:
rdonchann
03/16/2006, 12:43 PM
your calcium is not high anymore. It WAS high, that is what the snowstorm took care of.
rdonchann
03/16/2006, 12:45 PM
I am thinking the lack of calcium and alkalinity management caused this. He can have a wall made out of whatever he wants as long as he keeps the water in balance.
Russ Braaten
03/16/2006, 12:55 PM
Dugg,
You are shocking the snot out of your entire system. if you try to make it perfect instantly you will mess everything up. Go slow. Use just DI in your top off. and check your calcuim. Slowly get your calcium to where it needs to be and let the system sit for a week or so. Then see how it settles out. Less change is far better than perfect levels. Especially since you can't get perfect levels instantly.
I am biggining to wonder if maybe this bag of salt i just opened may have issues. Everything was fine until the temp shot up on me last weekend. I decided that i would do a water change, then everything went downhill from there. I changed another 5 gallons this morning, and the PH has dropped even lower. It is at 7.04 right now. The lights have been on for 3 hrs, and it is still dropping. Everything seems to be fine though.
Right now the spg is 1.024
KH = 9
no3 = 5ppm
temp = 78.5
amonia = 0
nitrite = 0
calcium = ?
mag = ?
Everthing is normal except the PH, the KH is normally around 11, so 9 doesn't seem that far off to me. Hopefully i can get a few minutes to go get some test kits tonight if the wife isn't loaded with homework when she gets home from school. I now know why we have kids at 18 to 20 years old instead of 40 lol. I wipe butts and fix bottles from 6am to 9pm, then i have to play poker from 9pm to 3am, or until i make my daily quota, so i sleep here and there and be thankfull that i don't have a real job to go to also lol. A 7 month old that gets 3 nebulizer treatments of steroids per day and a 3 year old that is still in diapers, doesn't talk, or feed himself and has major behavior problems is a full time job times 3.
Ok, i got a test kit. Never woulda guessed it lol.
cal = 260
I bought a 2 part system of ocean's blend cal/alk. I added 20 ml of each as directed on the bottle. I will take it slow until i get it ballanced and up to proper levels. I guess me and limewater are gonna part company at this point. From now on i will use the 2 part system, and top off with RO/DI.
Does anybody know if this ocean's blend is any good? it seems to be the only brand the stores carry around here. If not, when it is gone i will order from the internet and get something else.
captbunzo
03/16/2006, 03:13 PM
I'd not use it as you can do something extraordinarily similar with a DIY recipe by Randy Holmes-Farley.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
Travis L. Stevens
03/16/2006, 03:13 PM
Well, that's what test kits are for. And we all are often surprised as the reults. Well, now you know you need to add Ca. You can do this how you are, or you can invest in Calcium Chloride such as Dowflake or Turbo Calcium. But that is another story. Definitely read up on "Zone 3" located here. It explains most likely why your tank got this way. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6969906#post6969906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dugg
I guess me and limewater are gonna part company at this point. From now on i will use the 2 part system, and top off with RO/DI.
Definitely don't give up on it. It is by far a very good way to add equal amounts of Carbonate and Calcium back into the system. Your tank just might use Calcium quicker than Carbonate. I would get things back in line over the next few weeks, and then dose limewater as your top off and test Ca/Alk every week or two. If Alk or Ca start to get out of line, teach it a lesson by adding a little of the two part system. This will save you money in the long run because your two part will last a long time.
captbunzo
03/16/2006, 03:15 PM
I wonder how crazy it would be to use limewater via an auto-topoff system, and then do weekly supplementation of Randy's new & improved recipe.
Even after adding the 2 part additive, my PH is still crashing. It is at 6.90 now and still falling. I am baffled though, everything still looks fine. I figured it would all be dead by this point. I checked my monitor again, and it is reading right on the money. How can all the coral still be kicking at this PH level?
scott0615
03/16/2006, 08:24 PM
Your monitor is incorrect, everything would not look fine with a pH of 6.9. Double check it against other kits. How old is the probe and calibrating solution?
The probe is 6 months old, and the solution i calibrated it with i just bought. I just finished double checking it tonight. It is right, and still nothing is looking bad. Atleast it does the calibration fluid right. If i am not forgetting something. It calibrates to what is marked on the pouches right? 7.00 and 4.00 ?
The PH is down to 6.78 now. I am almost afraid to let the lights go off.
Everything is still looking fine, with full extension also.
OK, i did some test on the monitor. First i took a cup of tank water out and tested it in the cup to make sure i don't have some stray voltage affecting it. The monitor measured the same in the tank and the cup. Then i added an airstone to the cup, no change. Then i tested a cup of saturated limewater, 11.08 reading. Back to the tank, 6.74
captbunzo
03/17/2006, 01:00 AM
I'd compare against some cheap test pH kits, just for good measure...
phetish
03/17/2006, 01:58 AM
if i remember correctly, aragonite sand dissolves when the pH hits 7.9, doesn't it? also, once dissolved, it acts as a buffer to keep the pH from dropping even further.
also, in order to cause a snow storm that burned itself out at 260ppm Ca, the alkalinity couldn't have been too far out of whack. extremely high alkalinity would have forced more Ca out of suspension.
my thoughts? bad pH meter. possibly bad batch of salt, but less likely.
the 50% water changes actually should be supplementing the Ca and Mg levels (remember you're adding in water that has all of the good stuff still in it). done properly (as he seems to be) big water changes shouldn't be a shock to the tank.
just my thoughts....
derek
Travis L. Stevens
03/17/2006, 08:34 AM
phetish, yes, aragonite begins to dissolve at about 7.9 and very slowly. It buffers the pH by adding Carbonate and Calcium back into the aquarium. If there was a Carbon Dioxide issue, it might not be so effective.
I actually don't think the pH monitor is off. I could be wrong. Dugg, don't worry too much about the pH. The pH is just a measurement of the concentration of Hydrogen ions. The Calcium and Alkalinity is what you need to worry about at the moment and the pH will fall into place. I promise. It's going to take a good three weeks to get the Calcium above that "point of no return". If you were to use limewater, you can only get your Calcium to a certain point, and then it will just drop again. You got to use the Calcium Chloride to get it above that point. And you already got what you need.
This morning the PH is at 6.23. I can't believe i still have life in my tank. The lights aren't on yet, but the snails are on the front glass, so i guess everything is still ok. I expect the snails to be the first to go. I didn't think the PH could drop that far without killing everything. I guess i won't be so worried next time i wake up and it's 7.7 or so lol. When i dose the calcium/alk , the PH rises about .10 and then falls right back within a minute or two. I am just going to take it slow, and dose the calcium, and hope for the best. I am starting to wonder if something didn't crawl off into my sump and drown or something. The lizard population is booming this year. Also i found last night that my son sat an open bottle of car wax right by the intake for the fan that blows into this room, so maybe the fumes from that have something to do with it.
Ok, now i'm just mad. I went and bought some more calibration fluid and a PH test kit. When i test the probe in the fluid, it reads perfect, when i place it in the tank it reads 6.25. Then i ran a test with the test kit, and it reads 8.3. I guess it is a problem with the monitor, but why would it read right in the solution, and not in the tank? Well atleast i can stop worrying about the tank, and figure out what is wrong with my monitor. I was really stumped as to how everything could look just fine with a PH of 6.25.
As for the cal/alk, today it is at 12 dkh and 300ppm cal.
Travis L. Stevens
03/17/2006, 04:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6978572#post6978572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dugg
Ok, now i'm just mad. I went and bought some more calibration fluid and a PH test kit. When i test the probe in the fluid, it reads perfect, when i place it in the tank it reads 6.25. Then i ran a test with the test kit, and it reads 8.3. I guess it is a problem with the monitor, but why would it read right in the solution, and not in the tank? Well atleast i can stop worrying about the tank, and figure out what is wrong with my monitor. I was really stumped as to how everything could look just fine with a PH of 6.25.
As for the cal/alk, today it is at 12 dkh and 300ppm cal.
You're getting there. Just keep adding Calcium. Once you get it past about 350ppm it gets a lot easier. Don't be surprised if you wake up tomorrow with 14dkh and 280ppm Ca. :thumbsup:
If the dkh goes too high, should i just keep dosing equal amounts until it all comes into balance, or do i dose more calcium then alk?
phetish
03/18/2006, 12:28 AM
hehe - bad meter :) i was thinking that would be your problem
in my opinion, don't dose equal amounts. your alkalinity is already in a desirable range, but i'm guessing you want to raise your Ca levels.
if your Alk gets too much higher you'll be setting yourself up for another snowstorm.
by the way, regarding your 50% water changes. have you tested your Ca and Alk in the water you are adding into the system? if you get your tank Ca up to 450 and the water you are using in your water changes is at 200, then your tank will immediately drop to 325 upon completion of the water change.
just my thoughts...
derek
Travis L. Stevens
03/20/2006, 08:45 AM
What he said :) When dosing a two part system, you only dose what your aquarium is missing or has used. Since you lack Calcium, just dose the Calcium component and keep an eye on the Alkalinity. If the Alkalinity starts to fall, then add a little Alkalinity buffer. Other then that , just keep dosing a little bit at a time, and you will get back to normal.
captbunzo
03/20/2006, 09:42 AM
Actually, I got to disagree with you Travis, sort of. I mean, it is necessary to adjust them INITIALLY, however, after that, BOTH parts should be dosed every time. From this article...
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
...in the section titled Dosing Instructions, read as follows:
Resist the temptation to keep jiggering calcium and alkalinity independently. They will need occasional corrections, but that should not be the normal course of dosing unless there are substantial outside influences, such as water changes with a salt mix that does not match the tank's parameters or an error in making the mixes.Of course, it would be good to define "occasional" in perspective of these corrections.
Travis L. Stevens
03/20/2006, 10:13 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6996419#post6996419 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by captbunzo
Actually, I got to disagree with you Travis, sort of. I mean, it is necessary to adjust them INITIALLY, however, after that, BOTH parts should be dosed every time. From this article...
That's what I meant :) But the clarification should be well noted.
captbunzo
03/20/2006, 10:14 AM
:)
Thanks for the help everyone :). I have been dosing both still and testing every day. So far so good. The DKH = 12 and calcium is at 320. The PH is staying stable at 8.3 so far. I have a milwakee PH monitor on the way, until then i have plenty of tests to keep a watch on it.
Travis L. Stevens
03/20/2006, 11:31 AM
I would definitely stop dosing Alkalinity until you can get your Calcium just a little higher.
What does your new saltwater test? It might prepare you about what happens to your tank when you do water changes.
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