Proper Exposure for Parasites....

[mikeguerrero]

I just purchased the Turbo-Twist 3X UV Sterilizer, it's the 36 watt unit and rated for up to a 500 gallon tank. My tank is only 72 gallons.

Coralife, recommends 400-1200 gallons per hour. On the box it says:

"The flow rate needs to be low enough to provide the appropriate exposure dosage, but high enough to treat the entire volume of the aquarium with appropriate frequency".

I have the Mag 700 connected to it and at 3 feet of head pressure my GPH is 500.

So I'm well within the lower end of the spectrum and I want to be, if I am to zap the free floating parasites.

But I'm getting mixed messages, since Dr Foster's and Smith has a chart for UV sterilizers and it says the conflicting data.
Take a look at their chart:

UV Bulb (Watts) first column; To ControlBacteria and Algae (gph) second column; To Control Parasites (gph); last column.

4 60 N/A
8 120 N/A
15 230 75
18 300 100
25 475 150
30 525 175
40 940 300
65 1700 570
80 1885 625
120 3200 900
130 3400 1140

Okay if I use this chart I'm in between 30-40 watt so my Max GPH should be 200 gph if I'm to control parasites. I'm over this since I'm at 500 gph.

Do you see the logic here? I'm confused, can the guru on the UV lights step in and clarify this confusion?

Thanks,

Mike G

[kevin2000]

Not sure I fully understand you question.

UV lights will kill protozoan parasites but they need significantly greater exposure to the UV light ... that's the reason that the recommended flow rates to kill parasites are significantly less than the std flow rate which is effective at killing algae spoors. This gives the parasite more "dwell time" within the UV killing tube.

On the flip side ... some parasites like ich produce rapidly and many would say that you need to have a flow rate though the UV tube of at least 5X your tank water volume per hr. The high water flow precludes the use of many inexpensive UV devices which can't kill parasites with that kind of water flow.

Hope this helps.

[mikeguerrero]

Thanks kevin,

I guess I'm okay with 500 gph with this type of UV unit. I just got caught up reading material that is for other UV units.

How do I figure out the turn over rate for this unit? I have 72 gallons of water with sump maybe 82.

Then I have 500 GPH running through the unit so what is the equation?

Thanks,

MG

[kevin2000]

You need to figure out how much actual water your dealing with ... that depends on how much live rock and the depth of your sand bed. There are plenty of "calculators" on-line .. you should be able to find one at garf.org. Once you know you actual water volume then you can use the 5x benchmark to ascertain whether your UV has enough power to kill parasites at that flow rate.

[leebca]

It has to do with design, too. The so-called 'new design' of the Turbo-Twist is supposed to add exposure. You see the flow rate and bulb intensity/energy are a means to determine exposure. So design can contribute to exposure, too.

There are other guides around. I found this one useful:
http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/sterilizers.html

:rollface:

[mikeguerrero]

Leebca,

Thanks for the link, it had some good info on uv units and more importantly the turbo twist.

Tommorrow I'm calling Coralife and getting some questions answered.

I'll post to keep everyone informed.

[mikeguerrero]

Prior to the UV unit on Friday night, my Chevron and blue tang were literally convered in ich beyond anything I've ever seen, in fact from visual inspection I gave them one more day to live.

I was tempted to purchase Stop Parasites and place it in my tank in an attempt to give them immediate comfort but thought against it for my corals sake, so I purchased the UV unit.

I connected this monster size uv unit and started running it 24/7. What came next was very much a surprise, my water started to clear up even more and my fish started behaving different by Sunday night.

The big difference was in the night inspection, my fish were not darting around frantically like before they began going to sleep in the live rock. To me that's an indication that the free floating parasites are being erradicated.

This was the most evident with the powderblue tang which never would sleep peacefully since the ich outbreak, now he is off to bed, something I'd not seen since the day he first arrived.

Don't mis-construe what I'm documenting, my two tangs are still covered in ich as UV does zero on infected fish, just that secondary infection is looking bleak.

If I were to have a microscope handy I'd be able to see the concentration of parasites less than without the uv unit.

I've learned something with ozone and uv. My ozone unit is powered by a Mag 250 which is slowed down considerally to match the intake of my skimmer. As ich infested water is captured down my mega flow into my sump, parasites are still escaping this small recirculating pump.

In fact, having my controller shut off my ozone every night and not firing up untill daylight hours was giving parasites more time to breed.

Well, with the introduction of the monster size uv unit that is rated for 500 gallons, I'm turning over major kill ratio on a 72 gallon reef. With the mag 700 on a closed loop system, I'm increasing the kill ratio by passing the parasites on a continual basis as they enter the sump.

Between the Mag 250 and 750, I'm turning over about 700 gallons of infected water per hour and as I sleep I feel confident that the free floating parasites are getting their share of radiation and ozone.

I literally feel like my tank has become one of those coin operated water purification systems.

Now on the flip side of the coin, since I have the coralife powerstrip timer, I'm going to run my uv unit on daylight hours, as I feel and have read that running the uv in the night is not necessary especially since plankton is encouraged to breed in twilight hours. I'll do this after one month of operation ensuring the ich is under control.

I also dose at night and having the uv light go night night is very convenient for me, not having to manually each night shut it off, saves on energy and the life of the bulb, which is rated at 8,000 hours of continuous use.

I'm not out of the woods, but I certainly feel I've found a trail to begin my movement back to safe ground.

MG

[mikeguerrero]

Well,

I just got off the phone with Tech Support with Coralife. Here is the consensus:

IN ORDER TO KILL PARASITES FOR THIS PARTICULAR 36 WATT UV UNIT YOU NEED TO HAVE NO MORE THAN 290 GPH MAX.

I'm using a Mag 7 which at 3 feet head pressure gives me 500 gph. So I'm off to my LFS to purchase the Mag 3 which at 3 feet of head pressure gives me 300 gph.

He told me the Mag 3 going through the UV unit, should lose just enough to fall into 290 gph.

Well, there you have it, the answer to my original question; the whole point here is about erradicating free floating parasites, and Ich is on that list for me.

MG

[mikeguerrero]

As you know, I just replaced the pump on my UV unit, I pulled out the Mag 7 and dropped in the Mag 3.

I looked up the flow calculator on RC and found that at 3 feet I'm at 282 gph.

That gives me the target zone for killing parasites as per the instructions of my UV unit; 290 gph.

I also have the Ozone connected to my skimmer and that's on a Mag 2 which gives me 201 gph.

Between the two; I'm at 483 gph. So with 72 gallons of water in my tank I get about 6.7x turn over rate. Now this is for killing parasites.

I hope to see results in about 1 week. I'm not dosing any more medicatons, and the last medication that was in the tank has biodegraded more than 2 weeks ago.

The only thing I'm going to do is raise back the temperature of the tank; it's been at 77 degrees and I will bring in back up to 84 degrees in hopes of speeding the parasistes that are on the fish into the free floating stage.

I also intend on increasing the water flow in my tank with two additional MJ1200 in an attempt to have my megaflow capture more free floating parasites down to the sump, where Mr. Ozone and UV await them.

My chevron and blue tang are covered the most so I hope to see them come around with the intervention of UV and Ozone.

MG

[kevin2000]

My 02

I understand your goal of raising the temperature but I would urge caution.

While you may have the right sized UV and the correct flow rate I suspect the ultimate eradication of ich is something that should viewed as a long term proposition. Raising the temperature by 7 degrees may stress your livestock without providing any meaningful acceleration of eliminating ich.

Good luck.

[SAT]

In a closed system (as opposed to using UV to prevent transmission between tanks), having a flow rate that's too large is OK. If you have 2X the kill flow rate, the parasites will only get 1/2 the required dosage, but will probably be pulled through twice, yielding the same result.

Put another way, if the recommended 290gph isn't fast enough to give you the turnover you want, you can't fix it with just a faster pump. You also need a stronger UV unit.

There have been some good threads on UV in this forum and I suggest searching for them (look for "UV" and the user "Bomber"). I think UV may have a place in a well managed system, but I would invest in a good quarantine setup first.

[mikeguerrero]

Stuart,

Thanks for your post. After reading what you have said, I could've left the Mag 7 for a much higher turn over rate. Like you mentioned I am running a closed loop in the sump so the chances of the parasite getting a second ride is much higher.

I however, didn't get the info from the tech support at Coralife, he opted that I shoot down to the Manufactures specs, that clearly state I be no higher than 290 GPH.

Since I'm pursuing the ultimate glory in free floating parasite erradication, I made sure I got the best possible pump to give me that exposure rate.

The Mag 3 is a very strong pump and gives me the exposure that I need. Yes the turn over rate is nothing like when the Mag 7 was in place but it's purpose is to kill parasistes, nothing more.

In order to increase the turn over rate in my tank I purchased two more MJ1200 bringing my turn over to 34x.

This increase in 590 gph more in the main tank is an attempt to compensate for the lack of gph from the Mag 3.

If I can have more movement in the main tank, I'm increasing the chances that the free floating parasites will get pulled into the Megaflow.

I will post my results on this thread; so other users can see if the UV + Ozone erradicated my massive Ich epidemic in my reef.

MG

[SAT]

MB, good luck with the eradication!

BTW, did you notice this article on ozone?
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

[kevin2000]

Not sure whether I understood SATs comments. I don't think that exposure to UV is a cumulative issue and that running ich through a low level of UV multiple times will kill off ich .. if so, the inexpensive underpowered UV's would work and that clearly doesn't happen. I don't think there is any downside in having more than 5x movement through any UV light so long the UV exposure when in the UV chamber is sufficient to kill.

[mikeguerrero]

Kevin,

With just the UV light running 24/7 I would have 3.9x turn over rate... But like I mentioned above I'm at the correct exposure to kill free floating parasites.

With the ozone running along with the uv, I would be at 6.7x turn over rate.

I'm really excited about sharing with everyone on this forum my success or failure, on controlling an ich epidemic.

I've read the reports of erradication of ich in a single reef by way of ozone.

Here I am running both ozone and uv on a single reef, just booming with ich everywhere.

Nuff said.....

MG

[kevin2000]

I don't follow the ozone thing ... to my knowledge ozone has little if any impact on protozoan parasites - at least at the level of ozone we keep in our tanks. Seems to me that the proper method of viewing UV is to first focus on the level of UV exposure necessary to kill off ich ... then focus on trying to obtain the maximum level of flow within that framework so that you can help insure capture/kill of floating/swimming ich. The 5X turnover stuff is simply a benchmark that some think is required to insure over long period of time that the UV device will effectively eliminate ich within the tank.

[SAT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7015777#post7015777 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kevin2000
Not sure whether I understood SATs comments. I don't think that exposure to UV is a cumulative issue and that running ich through a low level of UV multiple times will kill off ich .. if so, the inexpensive underpowered UV's would work and that clearly doesn't happen. I don't think there is any downside in having more than 5x movement through any UV light so long the UV exposure when in the UV chamber is sufficient to kill.
My understanding is that UV exposure has a cumulative effect similar to that of other types of radiation. Note, for instance, that your risk due to x-rays is measured in REMS/year and your risk of skin cancer increases cumulatively with your sun exposure over your lifetime. However, this does not imply that the typical underpowered units are adequate, far from it. All it means is that if your pump is too fast you don't necessarily lose the sterilization effect that your unit is big enough to provide.

Put another way, let's say your unit is rated to kill parasites at 100gph and you have a 100g tank. Assuming completely even water flow (a huge assumption) parasites will have at most an hour to find a host before they are killed. Now let's say you run the same sterilizer at 200gph. Now the parasites have at most 1/2 hour before they get their first dose... and one hour before they get a full dose. Same effect.

If you have a typical underpowered unit that kills at a flow of 10gph, and you run the unit at 200gph, it will take 20 times through to get the required dosage, or 10 hours. That more than plenty of time for the parasites to find a host.

In previous threads it has been asserted that if you have 5-10X/hour turnover at a killing dose (once through) you can eradicate the parasites. However, this is only theoretical. In practice there are many variables involved that are likely to defeat this. For instance, Ich parasites typically fall off at night, while the fish is asleep, and then hatch at night. If the fish sleeps in the same hole in a rock every night, he has an excellent chance of being reinfected -- no matter how fast the turnover through the UV unit.

[SAT]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7015947#post7015947 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mikeguerrero
With the ozone running along with the uv, I would be at 6.7x turn over rate
In the article I referenced, Randy Farley-Holmes found that ozone used in the normal way has absolutely no chance of ever killing a parasite (and used in sufficient dosage to kill parasites will almost certainly kill your fish). There are good reasons to use ozone, but this isn't one of them.

[kevin2000]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7016640#post7016640 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SAT
My understanding is that UV exposure has a cumulative effect similar to that of other types of radiation. Note, for instance, that your risk due to x-rays is measured in REMS/year and your risk of skin cancer increases cumulatively with your sun exposure over your lifetime.

I think using that analogy is inappropriate in this case ... seems to me its hard enough to get the ich within the UV tube one time let alone multiple times. The cumulative approach doesnt make much sense given the fast reproductive cycle of ich.

In previous threads it has been asserted that if you have 5-10X/hour turnover at a killing dose (once through) you can eradicate the parasites. However, this is only theoretical. In practice there are many variables involved that are likely to defeat this

I agree - however seems to me that using the proper UV combined with the proper overall flow gives an aquarist the best chance .. assuming he/she is commited to the UV approach.

[leebca]

SAT,
In the article I referenced, Randy Farley-Holmes found that ozone used in the normal way has absolutely no chance of ever killing a parasite
I didn't read that article coming to that conclusion. I can't find those exact words. Randy H-F has rightly pointed out that virus and bacteria are affected by ozone in the reaction chamber. He included studies on dinos. There's no reason to say that the swimming theronts of Marine Ich would not be affected to some degree by ozone in the reaction chamber.

Ozone is not nearly as efficient as UV in the control of Marine Ich, but ozone should have some affect to reduce the population by partial destruction of some theronts that pass through the reaction chamber. It might not be much/many, but not absolutely zero, I would think.

[SAT]

LEE, you're quite right... I jumped to a conclusion that Randy did not actually report. However, when you consider that (a) the kill rate for bacteria is on the order of 50%, (b) Cryptocaryon is about 40X bigger than a typical bacillus, and (c) the killing dosage is probably proportional to organism size, it's reasonable to assume that ozone will have no useful effect in reducing the parasite populations.

[LargeAngels]

Does anyone know of any actual data on UV kill rates for marine parasites? Has anyone ever run tests? I've seen the tables published, but no report of actual testing.

This is the reply I got from Pentair Aquatics (Rainbow Lifeguard.)

"There is no good data on uv kill rates for parasites in aquariums. The only data is from the drinking water market and these are published in our brochure."

[SAT]

The only controlled experiment I'm aware of is the one referenced here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2761336#post2761336

It is reasonably well established that UV at the recommended dosage can prevent transmission of parasites between tanks. It has not been established that UV is effective at eradicating parasites already in a tank.

[blueplanet]

I used to have a Corallife Turbo Twist 3x running for 6 mths. Result for parasitic control: Not significant enough. IMO.

Worse: It electrocuted my tank! Electric Current leaked as the UV bulbs broke. Dont ask me how it broke... I certainly didn't break it myself. One day, I had an electric shock with my hand in the sump, and investigated. Unscrewed the Turbo 3x... & @#%&. The electric current leaked from the UV. Bulb was broken. I was disappointed at the quality & safety measure taken by the mfg.

So beware when you have "light bulb" in your tank/sump. Don't get shocked!

[LargeAngels]

SAT: Thanks for the info. I agree with you on the multiple tank spread vs. single tank eradication.

[mikeguerrero]

Well,

Reefers I'm back from vacation and have some reporting to do regarding the 12x Coralife Sterilizer.

My unit has been running full blast since last monday, that was the day I set it up on a mag 350.

Last Friday I took off with my wife to Anaheim, Ca to visit my brother and left my tank on auto pilot.

You all know that I'm fighting a ich epidemic in my reef and as I came home I was much surprised with what I saw.

I saw a really healthy tank with all fish swimming with their vibrant colors. The chevron and blue tang were the heaviest affected with ich prior to me setting up the UV system.

On Friday, the chevron was really covered and he hardly has any ich on him as I inspected the tank today.

The blue tang which I thought should be dead, since he was covered in ich, is still alive and has less ich as well, but not as clean as the chevron.

The others have no visible signs and the powder tang has just a few dots.

I attribute the sucess to my UV and Ozone.

Slowly but surely the tank is really comming alive with water quality and healthy fish.

I tried meds with no success and this appears to be really doing a positive number on my tank.

It's only been one week but it's a positive turn.

If I didn't already mention earlier, I dropped in two more MJ1200's on daytime timers.

I kicked up the turn over rate in my tank to 34x turn over rate. In a positive movement to capture more free floating parasites into my UV and Ozone.

It's working....

Like I mentioned in the beginning I will be keeping all of you updated....

More to come....

Mike G

[blueplanet]

Mike, thanks for the update. You are tempting me to run get another UV and may be ozone .... Please keep us posted. :)

[SAT]

Mike, that's good news. :thumbsup:

For the record, how long had the infection been progressing before you saw this improvement? The reason I ask is often after a few weeks the fish's immune system starts to kick in. That's one reason it's hard to tell the difference between a placebo and an effective treatment.

Due to some real stupidity that I won't explain, I've had two outbreaks in the last 2 years (the last about 18 months ago). I chose not to treat either one. The first killed a few fish, infected a few others that got better on their own, and didn't affect a few others at all. The second didn't kill anything. It's just in the last few months that I no longer see any signs of Ich in the tank (no spots on my Atlantic blue tang).

[leebca]

it isn't just the immunity kicking in, it's also the MI's loss of virulence. It's a combo effect --- The fish build immunity and the MI loses its ability to infect. So long as you don't introduce any new MI organisms, the old will die off in about 10 months. Leading up to that time, the organism gets weaker and weaker.

But after the organism is gone, the fish begin to lose their immunity.

I have helped aquarists do exactly as you've reported SAT. It works, but it takes time (and the wasting of fish life). :rollface:

[mikeguerrero]

Stuart,

To give you a recap on the infection, ich made it's first attack back in October 05, it was during the time I was adding my Tangs.

I had gotten away with adding a Yellow Tang, Blue Tang, Kole Tang, and a Chevron Tang.

It's when I added the Tomini Tang that my tank entered it's first ich outbreak and the blue tang become covered in ich. The tomini had brought some type of white mucus on his head but he never developed the ich.

Ich then spread to my algae blenny, Orchid dottyback, and six line wrasse.

I had used in the past No-ich when I owned my nano cube so I went with what had worked in the past.

After treating the tank with No-ich for 2 whole weeks, the fish responded well and ich was completely eliminated visibly.

I ran the aquarium for 4 months ich free, when I decided to bring home my last edition, the Powder Blue and it's here that the problems started.

The PBT, was not quarentined and had just arrived from Indonesia and against my LFS I took him home and placed him in.

On the second day the PBT began showing signs of ich, which went from bad to worse.

I did absolutely nothing with meds, I figured my fish can overcome the ich since they had been exposed before, and this is where the problems began.

I ignored the tank for 2 full weeks and the ich just started to spread mainly on the PBT, but then on the Blue Tang and then finally the Chevron and Kole.

I went and purchased the No-ich and used the entire bottle but I rushed the dosages, since on that week my ozone unit had arrived and I wanted to set it up, big mistake.

Seeing that my fish were not getting better to the No-ich, I shut off the ozone unit that had run for only 1 week and I got another bottle of No-ich.

I ran this bottle exactly as the instructions said 1 full week, and during this time the ich didn't spread, but right after the last dosage, the ich started multiplying all over.

The ich came back super strong and literally covered the blue and chevron tang and the PBT.

At this time, I said no more on meds, I need to run the UV system along with the Ozone unit together in full power.

That brings us back to last monday March 20th; both units have been up and running 1 full week.

Okay here are some numbers, I have a turn over rate of 32x in a 72 gallon tank. My UV + Ozone turn over 6x. Over 1 week of constant circulation and increased flow, some if not a lot of the free floating ich is being targeted.

My observations and hypothesis, is that my units are destroying a good amount of the epidemic of free floating parasites. As the second wave of cysts drop to the sand bed, my powerheads are all directed towards the bottom to kick up the sand.

This second wave will and has infected my fish, but here is the kicker, they are not scratching nearly as much as before, they actually sleep in the night, when before they would dart around like mad as the ich would attack them in the night.

This has not been the case with the UV and ozone unit going for one week.

I'm hoping that these units keep the epidemic at bay and allow the fish to fight the smaller waves of cysts on their own.

With each day that passes what ever ich enters the free floating stage they have a good chance of running into the units.

With each successful pass, they are eliminated while others attach to my fish, it's giving them a fighting chance than without these two units.

What has died due to the ich as been two cleaner gobies that I added prior to the UV units. One died on the day I added him while the other lasted 1 week then died, after being covered in ich.

I have not lost any of my other fish to any of the ich as I write.

I have also decided to keep my temp at 77 degrees as I don't want them exploding all over my tank without any meds with a high temp.

I thought of the ich going crazy and getting sucked up by the units but I opted not to, since I don't want them going nuts eating my fish alive.

With the colder temp and the UV running, I see the strain not going nuts on my fish.

Well, that's everything current as I speak. I'll keep all posted as I enter week number 2.

MG

[SAT]

Thanks Mike!