hermits dying

[davidhughes85]

i have a 2 and a half week old tank with a jebo protein skimmer and a topfin 60 with biological inserts. I had added 5 turbo snails about 20 astrea snails (cone shaped smaller ones?) and about 18 hermits....my hermits have gradually been dying off one every couple of days... all my parameters are fine just slite nitrates( dont know why, they were at 0) I have two clowns, mushroom coral, pompom xenia, and a black spined sea urchin that seem to be doing fine. anyone have a quess at why my hermits are falling off?

[davidhughes85]

anyone?

[bwilson60]

Are your snails ok? How do you know the hermits are dying? Are they just killing the snails and leaving the shells? Are they getting enought to eat? Are they killling eachother?

[HBtank]

I hate to be that guy...


But man, you added WAY too much WAY too quick. Patience man, Patience.

With that much in a 2 week old tank it would be hard to tell. Hermits should be about the toughest thing you added.

How big is the tank? How much LR?

What are your parameters and what have they been over the two weeks? You make it sound like you had 0 for all the whole time...

That is not how a tank cycles and already raises some questions...

[PiNaPLeX]

your hermits might be dying from lack of food. 2.5 weeks isn't much time for that much algae to form to feed that many cleaners.

[specrn5]

I concur, you added too much too fast in a new tank. Even when I thought my tank was fully cycled I waited another week until I added any livestock, for good measure. I know cycling times vary on many factors, but 2.5 weeks seems pretty short. Did you see your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels spike?

[davidhughes85]

sorry it took so long to right back i had to sit through a horrible stats lecture blah...my snails do seem to be fine um the most recent crab i know hes dead cause shortly after dying another crab has takin his body out and stole his shell (i guess he got the house in the will) I just now as of about yesterday started getting this brown coloration on top of the sand, is this what they needed to eat??? the LFS told me that i should get all of them so i wouldnt get an algae bloom, which i havent

[davidhughes85]

oh and yes my ammonia and nitrites all spiked and went back down within the first week...i might have actually had the tank for 3 to 3 and a half weeks... i have a bad memory...my nitrates have risen back up to .25 but i think thats because im using a topfin filter with biological inserts( heard they put nitrates back into teh system)

[specrn5]

Then it sounds, like somebody already mentioned, they aren't getting enough to eat. I had a few hermits die off after I installed a refugium, which depleted almost all of the hair algae, and I didn't noticed until I lost a few. Now I just supplement some nori and they seem to be doing fine.

[IslandCrow]

Keep a very close eye on all of your tank inhabitants as well as the tank parameters. I waited two months before I added anything to the tank, and that was just the cleanup crew. I can't imagine your tank could have finished cycling yet. If you don't have one already, I'd get a hospital tank set up in case you get another ammonia or nitrite spike you have an alternate location for your fish until your tank settles down. Truthfully, if you know someone with an established tank who can babysit your tanks inhabitants for a month or so, that would probably be the safest route.

[ChickenCannoneer]

Also you will probably want to go to a different LFS b/c it seems that this one may have given you some bad advice. About buying all of the hermits at once.

[Paul B]

The 18 hermits are probably starving. As was said, lend most of those animals to someone for about three months as that is about how ling it takes to cycle a tank. And thats just slightly cycled. You can add a few of those crabs every week but you will have to feed them. I would use a small sinking pellet. Be careful because in an uncycled tank such as yours you may see the water cloud up. That is because there is not enough bacteria in there yet. After a few months you will not have to feed those animals but it is way too many now. I would find a new lfs, he is wrong to tell you to put in that many animals now.
Paul

[REEFKEEPA]

No doubt. Starving.
Let some algae start growing then put them in.
You can feed the tank and the crabs will eat. But watch out because they could take a liking for the food and won't touch the algae when you need them to.

[davidhughes85]

Im pretty sure that my tank has cycled i had a cichlid setup in this tank for a long time and am familiar with cycles. I had teh cloudy water already which cleared up , I cycled with two damsels which i fed about four times a day and i saw the largest ammonia spike id ever seen (killed the damsels) followed by my rediculous nitrates and nitrites. All went down to 0 and i am now maintaining for about two weeks at all very good parameters...clowns and urchin have been in tank for a week or so now and all very active.

[JmLee]

marine tanks have a different cycling process then FW. feeding 4 times a day IMO is way to much. i feed my livestock ( 2 orange spoted gobies, a watchman goby ) once every 2-3 days, Even then im still battling a nitrate problem.

[davidhughes85]

i still dont do that !!!hahaha i did that or the cycle thats it....I feed once a day to every other day

[Paul B]

It will take about three months to cycle that tank (in my opinion of course) It doesent matter what your test kits say. anerobic bacteria do not grow that fast although aerobic bacteria do. Either way, cycled or not, the hermits are probably starving.
A hermit crab is not like a fish, they eat all day usually from detritus and algae which should be scarce in your tank now. Your urchin is also starving but it will take longer for it to die, they eat algae and just about nothing else. A clown fish will be able to go almost a month without eating anything.
I mean no disrespect and this is only my opinion.
Paul

[davidhughes85]

I heard that these urchins eat coraline and there is some of this on my rocks

[davidhughes85]

any other opinions i know ive seen peoepl on these forums say there cycles went even faster than mine

[davidhughes85]

and the sea urchin just pooped some little yellow balls out of his "eye" so it seems hes eating something. And did I mention I used cured rock to cycle along with live sand, does this change any minds or opinions?

[AquaReeferMan]

I will agree with both sides of cycling here. My first 2 tanks cycled for 2 months with hardly no life and I really havent seen any spikes of any sort. Now for the last tank I set up I used Cured LR and Live Sand from my 55g reef. That tank only cycled for 2 weeks and I now have 4 fish and a clean up crew. I also used Marineland denitrifying bacteria.

[fuzz1974]

I have heard of cycling, but when I made the move from fresh water to SW, I literally did it within a 24 hr. period. I used 86 lbs. of LR (cured) and 46 lbs. of LS. Got a 4x65w pc fixture and BAM a reef tank was born. I the same 24 hrs. I added a LTA(long tentacle anemone) 2 clown fish, 2-cleaner shrimp a royal gramma and a yellow tail damsel. Some kenya tree and pulsing zenia. I NEVER had any of the original occupants die. I know it sounds crazy but it is truth. After a week or so, I added 25 snails and 25 blue leg hermits. My tank has now been up and running for over a year now, and going good.

Also 3 weeks after starting the tank was the c-sea frag swap, I got an open brain and that thing has done nothing but grow.

So, I guess what I am getting at is, I don't believe that it is the age of the tank, but the quality of the water. Just do some water changes and if your crabs are hungry, feed them! Get some krill or something and throw it in there, and what isn't eatin in a few hours take it out.

I know that 99.9% of the people here will wish me a nice trip to hades, but it will work for you.

Fuzz

[JmLee]

it IS the age of the tank. As matter of fact for most reef tanks it is recommended to let your tank age for atleast 6 months but IMO even more. Giving your tank time will let the water chemistry stabilize. Alot of people will experience Diatom bloomings and green algae during the cycling process which is normal. The only way to cheat the cycling process is using mature LS, Fully cured Live rock, And even water from a mature tank will help. Even then you are likely to run into fluctuations in your water chemistry but the process would be alot shorter. Even the most experienced reefers including Professionals such as B.Fenner will tell you how crucial it is to let your tank age for a healthy aquarium. You sound like you have alot of research ahead of you. ( honestly i do as well ) but here is a excellent site for informations and question linking to other forums is not permitted Good luck!. Oh one more thing... there are PLENTY of threads on this forum that fully cover the importants of the cycling process and what happens during the cycling process. As mater of fact if i find it ill post them.

[HBtank]

There are always exceptions to the rule.

Anyways I would read up......

I kept cichlid biotypes of every lake in the rift valley, and thought it was comparable to reef tanks at the time.

There really is no comparison between the two. Though both have a simlar initial cycle, the rest thereafter is much much different. People refer to the rest as becoming "established", and this can take a varying amount of time but involves a multitude of things that are not found in a FW tank such as anareobic bacteria, other forms of bacteria that filter feeders consume, pods, stages of algae.. etc..

The fact that you are having to FEED a cleaning crew should tell you that you are going too fast.

[davidhughes85]

Fuzz your my idol...one thing ive learned in this hobby so far is everyone has opinions and most people have a die hard one....i think its all circumstances

[JmLee]

Dude if you cant keep hermit crabs alive how are you gona keep reef tank or even a FOWLR?. You need to R E A D!. Read information from wetwebmedia.com and read from other peoples experiences!. It sounds like to me you want quick answers from reef central when what you SHOULD be doing is reading up. Bob Fenner and the rest of the WWM crew are awsome and will be able to help you with these answers. Sorry to tell ya man this hobby takes alot of patients. Remember we are just trying to save you from wasting your money and your time. Oh BTW why do you think so many people are telling you, that you are rushing? or that 2 1/2 weeks is to soon?. Think about it.. :rolleyes:

[htsou]

Having living animals in your tank is great responsibility. Please take good care of them by learning from other's experience. If you want quick stuff, I suggest you to get a season pass at your local aquarium.

[Fmellish]

Read, and learn

http://www.marinedepot.com/FORUMS/Topic23945-9-1.aspx

While some texts, namely the "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner will cite suggestions such as 1 snail per gallon, you need to wait a little longer than you did before adding as much as you did.

For reference, I have 120 reef tank with 150 gallons of water volume and I have 10 snails and 4 hermits in at month 3 now.


Josh

[davidhughes85]

aight guys i was very patient and went through everything with my lfs, they practicly held my hand the entire way and i usually waited several days after they said it was ok to move on....another thing the hermits i bought was from another lfs that cant seem to keep their crabs alive in their own tanks and this is where i got mine cause i had a hook up. Yes I do read you have no idea how much and everything I read is contradicting...am I saying I would cycle my tank in a week like the guy above no, but if his circumstances are ideal go for it. Everything is an opinion in this hobby and Im learning this most of all.

[ricks]

WOW... Just think a LFS giving bad advice... My advice would be, ready??? Cut corners, rush, hurry to get it all set up. Throw rock, and livestock together. Oh, and very little reseach also helps. And wonder why you have problems.... Could be why so many get frustrated an quit...

Just a thought????

[bwilson60]

I dont relly want to reply however I hate seeing everyone beet up on people all the time. This is just my opinnion however here it is missspelled words and all. (they need a spell check). My wife and I spend 5k on a new 180 full set up with 250lbs PreCured Live Rock, Live Sand and all top of the line gear. I waited one week!!!!!! No Cycle!!!!!! Checked every day for all parementers!!!! After one week i went to the lfs and spent about 2000.00 on fish and coral only 4 fish. Then one week later I went back and spent about 1000.00 4 fish and then more coral. I did that every week until I had all the fish and coral I wanted (Which I planed before I purchased the tank). That was one year ago? When will my tank cycle and all my fish die? I did have an ick problem about 4months ago and lost two fish but that was due to a bad water change. So what I am trying to say is that clearly there is no perfect sience to this stuff. There is and are some general rules to folow however all tanks are different enviorements. I think because I bought precured live rock, and the expensive live sand that my tank didnt cycle. Just a thought. I was told that it would however after testing my water almost every other day for about 4mths I got tired of waiting and stopped testing. I just test monthly now as its very stable. I do water changes every sunday and it works well. We have large clams, anomies, which are supposed to be hard but not for us? So that is my story so I say feed the crabs however with the brown stuff you will probably be ok now they will eat that. Kinda fun to watch them leave a trail where they go. Have Fun.

[davidhughes85]

See my point again it all depends...I think some people had to wait that long on their tanks and because their tanks took that long then BY GOD!! Everytank is exactly like mine and should be run exactly as mine is and if not your a fish killer and wrong! AND AGAIN ricks i did do research ...alot of research....ask my gf who is griping right now cause i wont stop looking at fish on the internet..so lets get past that comment alright? One thing I didnt get after putting in too much cleaners is an algae bloom, and im glad my tank looks great and I can see in it...and if a couple hermits died cause there doing a great job well im out a couple bucks..they were probably happier in the ocean than in anyones tank anyways. If a new guy asks for advice give an opinion dont slap him in teh face with the reef bible and condemn him to hell, that will drive as many new guys from this hobby as mistakes will.

[ricks]

Sorry David... My comments were not ment as a bashing.. Maybe I just need to quit reading the forums. With the limited information you gave, It's hard for us to help with hermit death. "All parameters are fine" How many different test were ran? You stated Nitrates at 0. How large is your aquarium? Does it have a sump with overflow. For surface extraction of protein build up? Are you getting PH or temp fluctuation from PM to AM? 2 1/2 weeks seems like a very short time for a stocked reef. That's only my opinon, now. I understand you've done a lot of reseach, at your Gf expense. But the knowledge in this hobby is gained through years of trail and error. Hopefully less error..... With a liitle more background infomation, maybe we can be more helpful.

PEACE....

[Fred_J]

There is one absolute with a very FEW exceptions. LFS give wrong or inaccurate maybe even misleading advice. If I had found this forum before going to the only marine LFS in town it would have saved me over a thousand dollars. The money I wasted was growing every day, with each recommendation by the LFS. I don't think they intentionally misled me, I think they hire inexperienced employees who act like they know what they are talking about. Right after I started reading RC the LFS was trying to talk me into changing my 20g long sump for one of their expensive acrylic wet/dry ones. I was so easily misled because I got out of the hobby for awhile and it looks like everything changed. I'm not rude or confrontational to the LFS when I go there, I just nod my head at everything they say then go by what I read on here, even with all the disagreements. I can easily read both sides then make up my own mind.

[JmLee]

omg no ones slapping you in the face, your taking it the wrong way!. We are here to help you!. look just because your tank is keeping life alive in such a early cycling stage doesnt mean they are going to thrive. At this point your water is missing alot of organic chemicals or even contain TO MUCH organic chemicals. Why dont you stroll over to the "Reef Chemistry" forum and check it out. Good stuff there.

[JmLee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7014559#post7014559 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bwilson60
I dont relly want to reply however I hate seeing everyone beet up on people all the time. This is just my opinnion however here it is missspelled words and all. (they need a spell check). My wife and I spend 5k on a new 180 full set up with 250lbs PreCured Live Rock, Live Sand and all top of the line gear. I waited one week!!!!!! No Cycle!!!!!! Checked every day for all parementers!!!! After one week i went to the lfs and spent about 2000.00 on fish and coral only 4 fish. Then one week later I went back and spent about 1000.00 4 fish and then more coral. I did that every week until I had all the fish and coral I wanted (Which I planed before I purchased the tank). That was one year ago? When will my tank cycle and all my fish die? I did have an ick problem about 4months ago and lost two fish but that was due to a bad water change. So what I am trying to say is that clearly there is no perfect sience to this stuff. There is and are some general rules to folow however all tanks are different enviorements. I think because I bought precured live rock, and the expensive live sand that my tank didnt cycle. Just a thought. I was told that it would however after testing my water almost every other day for about 4mths I got tired of waiting and stopped testing. I just test monthly now as its very stable. I do water changes every sunday and it works well. We have large clams, anomies, which are supposed to be hard but not for us? So that is my story so I say feed the crabs however with the brown stuff you will probably be ok now they will eat that. Kinda fun to watch them leave a trail where they go. Have Fun.

and you do realise that live sand takes months to become active. So technically the LS had nothing to do with the cycling process at that point.

[WaterKeeper]

I'm not sure why this is showing up as a reported post. If it is just to get my input then--it was a Cichlid tank switched to SW. Any chance the former tank was treated with copper? If there are lingering traces it may be the cause of the hermit crabs demise. Only a guess however.

[JmLee]

yeah but the snails would suffer too i would think. who knows! =)

[davidhughes85]

nope no treatment i honestly think its the lfs that i got them from. In an earlier post I stated that their hermits always died very quickly after shipments in the stores tanks..maybe their suppliers or something in their water...so i wasnt all that worried because everything else is doing very very well...more just wondering what they would eat and maybe they were starving, the post quickly expanded to my cycle and on from there..

[JmLee]

hey david what kind of hermits are they by the way/.

[davidhughes85]

some are red legged, some blue legged, a few brown ones dont know what they are