View Full Version : Whats going on with these zoos?
bobafett
03/24/2006, 08:00 PM
I have a 125 with mostly zoos. Every now and then I get this problem. The zoos shrivel up and look like PPE's. I have tried dips but it does nothing. I have since left them alone and some die and some make full recovery. I had the nudis over a year ago and I know its not them because I can't find any of them (or their eggs) in my tank and I know the path of destruction they leave. Check out the pics and let me know what you think.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/68231DSCF0018.JPG
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/68231DSCF0015.JPG
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/68231DSCF0013.JPG
surfnvb7
03/24/2006, 08:11 PM
its an obvious path of destruction. its definitly not viral/bacterial.....as you would notice a mortality rate spread over a somewhat symetrical area. as infections spread "out".
my guess.....is that it is some sort of animal/invert who cruised through there and damaged them.
or....
do you have any corals nearby that puts out really long sweapers at night? it almost looks like a really long sweaper went through that area and gave them a pretty big sting. judging by the somewhat linear path of destruction.
ros_sco
03/24/2006, 08:49 PM
The same thing happens to mine from time to time. After they look like what is happening to yours, the top "pinches" off. Later they usually make a full recovery. I have yet to figure out why. The only link I have found yet is maybe I added kalk too quickly. The problem has not reappeared since I stopped using and started using another calcium source. It only happens(ed) to three different colonies. Two came back and the third died.
http://webpages.charter.net/rossowsj/Reef%20pictures/zoa%20problem.JPG
coralfarm123
03/24/2006, 10:19 PM
Watch your colonies and see if your amphidpods are nipping at them. I have seen them eating the lashes on my zoanthids and protopalythoas. I have witnessed this dozens of times under my moon lights. At first I thought they were just cleaning normal healthy polyps until I saw the little buggers ripping the green lashes off my PPE. At times they will clean a polyp of many or all of its lashes, and then it will cause the polyp to pinch, shrivel up, and close. If it was healthy polyp, usually they will recover after being close up for a long time, somtimes up to a month. Usually smaller polyps will not recover. The end of the polyp will usually turn white. Amphipods in general usually only eat dead or decaying tissue on corals and are beneficial most of the time, but every now you get one on a rampage and it can cause some damage. I generally notice that this occurs at night and more often to protopalythoas than other zoanthids. You always here people talking about how their PPE mysteriously died and these are the symptions I usually here associated with the death. I believe this is probably the number one reason many people have so much trouble keeping PPE and other protos. I have caught these little buggers red handed many times munching away like they are at an expensive seafood buffet. It is pretty easy to catch them when eating and I turkey baste them out and they become fish food:) If it is the amphipods causing your problem, you can add a stalker type fish and hopefully it can reduce the population.
Hutton
03/24/2006, 11:05 PM
this is exactly what my orange zoas have been doing! i have not seen one amphipod in my tank.
bobafett
03/25/2006, 05:03 PM
I havent noticed any amphipods on them. I do have a CB Butterfly, a six line wrasse, and a cleaner wrasse in the tank and I hope they would take care of any amphipods that would be in the tank. I will however keep a closer look for them at night when the lights are out.
BTW... I did loose my small colony of real PPE's to this.
surfnvb7
03/25/2006, 05:20 PM
ahhhh........it may be the wrasses you have (not the 6line). i'm not too familiar with a cleaner wrasse...do they have teeth?
if the CBB or cleaner wrasse is looking for featherdusters/aptasia or pods/worms that may be nestled in b/w an area of zoa polyps......those two types of fish will literally rip through the zoa polyps to get to them.
i know people who have had trouble with CBB and certain wrasses when it comes to them hunting for their food and ripping up zoa polyps in the process. they arent after the zoa polyps themselves though. although, CBB's are so tricky, and all seem to be different, the CBB could be eating the tips off the zoa skirts....thinking they are aptasia/featherdusters which it normally likes to hunt.
ros_sco
03/25/2006, 08:36 PM
No fish to blame in my case. I just have a maroon clown and a couple of green chromis.
bobafett
03/26/2006, 12:12 AM
This has been happening befor the CBB was added to the tank so its not a suspect. I'll keep an eye out for the wrasses.
bobafett
03/27/2006, 11:22 AM
I picked off a small starfish that was next to a colony. I'm not sure what they're called but they are white-ish, about the size of a dime and their legs are weird (some have four legs while some may have six). I remeber reading an article about them at GARF and they said they prey on SPS. Maybe they may be responsible?
Lionfan
03/29/2006, 10:16 PM
Bobafett, For me it was to much light. Are your running metal halides. Could be it. Some zoanthids just can't take it. Most of my pinks and blues don't like it and tend to get the nipple look and then perish unless I move them to shade permanently. Try putting them in the shade .
bobafett
03/30/2006, 10:36 AM
I'm sure it's not the lighting because it is random all over the tank. I have never observed my fish picking at them and I can't find any predators at night with a flashlight. I'm thinking it may be some unknown disease (fungus or bacteria) because a colony may look great one day and the next it looks like crap. I have had zoos close up in the past but these look like their being sucked dry from the inside. I dealt with the nudibranchs over a year ago and the affected zoos didn't look this bad.
coralfarm123
03/31/2006, 11:41 AM
I'm not sure about this, but don't zoanthid spiders lay eggs inside the polyps. From what I here they live under the mat of the zoanthid colony and are rarely seen. Maybe this could be it. Just a shot in the dark though. Not too familiar with them.
bobafett
04/01/2006, 10:57 AM
I have seen pics of the spiders but haven't seen any in my tank (that doesn't mean there aren't any). I would like to get more info on them but I haven't been able to use the search button for the last six months since it always says the server is busy. Is this typical of the destruction the spiders leave? It looks like I'm going to have to start up my quarantine tank again.:mad:
coralfarm123
04/02/2006, 06:55 PM
Not sure, can anyone else speak with experience. Also, you can use this link to search RC. I use it instead of the search function. It doesn't get backed up. Good luck, hope you find the cause.
http://reefcentral.com/search.php?s=&menu=11
crabbypatty
04/03/2006, 08:20 PM
mine are new and look like that 6 day's old. they have brown algae on them will they ever open. their suppose to be blue i raised them higher in the tank to see if that helps. other's i baught did open any tricks?
bobafett
04/04/2006, 06:51 AM
If they look exactly like mine do at the very beginning of the thread I doubt they will ever open. Blue zoos however do not like alot of light. Place them at the very bottom of the tank (even in a little shade) and see if that works.
kahunakatz
04/04/2006, 02:09 PM
The starfish that you described is called an Asterina star. I have known some people who have lost corals to them and other people have a fair number of Asterinas and their corals do fine.
Because the damage is localized, I would consider that there may be a coralivore in your tank. You know that you have Asterina starfish so that seems a likely candidate. It could also be sundial snails or a rock crab. Rock Crabs can be VERY secretive and destructive. I would focus your efforts on finding the bad guy because it seems like a predator is doing this.
Best Wishes,
Barry Katz
smy168
04/04/2006, 03:59 PM
I've seen blue hermits in my 120 and 54 go after zoos at night, I don't think it's their preferred food, probably cleaning the rock and nipping on the zoos as they graze. I'm doing a 24Pod with just zoos and shrooms right now and have patches of frags that are behaving the same way. I hate to say it but, I would stop the dipping and just wait it out. I've learned in this hobby that sometimes you just have to leave well enough alone and let nature either heal or dispose of them.
I set up a 2000 gallon for my friend's hotel last year in FLA with a softie tank and really large (8-15 inch) zoo colonies that were wild caught, no nudies or spiders (knock on wood) and one of the plates started pinching in the center, it got to about 2.5 to 3 inches around before they finally died off. We checked everything from ammonia to nitrate to iodine and found nothing wrong, sometimes it's just stress.
Monitor and wait, hopefully everything works out for ya.
good luck
TOURKID
04/04/2006, 04:05 PM
I have some red zoas... This JUST happened to mine.. some heads kinda turned inside out, and one looked like it swallowed a fish its 'body' was so expanded, but closed off at the top. This happened right after i added 'coral up' So maybe it is calcium/kalk
bobafett
04/04/2006, 06:47 PM
I have looked every night for two weeks and the only other thing that I have seen near the zoos (besides those starfish which I remove when found) is a small creature that I can only describe as looking like an ancient trilobite but it doesn't have any legs but rather moves around like a snail. Its definitely not a copeopod. The weird thing is that whatever is causing this is very picky. I have one rock that was covered with orange and green zoos. All the green ones are fine but the orange ones have shriveled up and dissappeared (why do they always go for the nice ones???)
TONY DELBRIDGE
04/05/2006, 07:54 AM
My zoo collection has recently been wiped out by what looks like the ones in the top pictures. I read the forums on white bumps/leisons, but mine look more like the ones on this thread. The centers of the zoos protrude out with the fringe lying down. The stem going to the base or mat eventually falls off. Now my zoo collection is almost entirely wiped out !! I first noticed a white fungus on my polythoa. I eventually removed the colony and scraped off any other spreading polyps from my live rock. I was wondering if this created mucus affected my zoos. I have also noticed as mention previously a couple of my blue-legged crabs are eating or lying around some of my zoo colonies. At first I only noticed this attacking the colonies at the lower levels, but now all my zoos are being affected. HELP !! All my expensive prized collection is almost completely wiped out. Everything except the zoos still looks OK (mushrooms, leathers, star polys, montipora, fish) Any suggestions?
okinamgagoka
04/05/2006, 08:43 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7051445#post7051445 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bobafett
I picked off a small starfish that was next to a colony. I'm not sure what they're called but they are white-ish, about the size of a dime and their legs are weird (some have four legs while some may have six). I remeber reading an article about them at GARF and they said they prey on SPS. Maybe they may be responsible?
I have a zoo colony that was healthy for the past 6 months then suddenly it started to deteriorate. I lifted it up and noticed a small starfish(looks like a brittle star), about the size of a dime also. Not sure if this is the same thing you have? Im not sure if that is whats causing them to die but I pulled it off anyway. This is the second time I've seen that kind of starfish under a dying zoo colony.
TONY DELBRIDGE
04/06/2006, 08:45 AM
Last night I trashed (6) of my zoanthid colonies. For the most part, they were all deteriorated. I kept only my favorite colonies which still looked somewhat healthy. I did a second water change and replaced the carbon. I checked my water at the LFS this morning and everything was fine. I did not check alkalinity however. I was told this could be a problem with zoanthids. I will check this ASAP. For my first tanks, I never really checked my parameters except for salinity and never really lost any corals. I now have hundreds of dollars in corals in my 24 Nano and this is the first problem I have had. My water has checked out for the basic parameters. I have never really checked for say alkalinity, phosphate, or calcium levels. I do add iodine ocassionally to help out my mushrooms and cleaner shrimp. I was also told to try to increase flow around the zoos. I only have a 24 gal Nano in which I have an adapter with several heads. My first tank was a 5 and 12 gal Nano and my zoos were fine with the standard fixtures. I try to blow off my zoos daily with a turkey baster. As far as the starfish, I have noticed what looks like a type of serpent star. This thing has long thin hairlike legs. It has always stayed in one location and the zoos around it are the only ones that look somewhat healthy. I have had baby serpent stars in the past which never affected my zoos. I recently purchased a scooter blenny and he has for the most part eaten all of the baby serpent stars in the live rock. The only one remaining is the one with the long hairlike legs which usually stays hidden in the live rocks crevices. As far as nudis, I have never seen any and from what I have been told, these will eat the polyp entirely. Mine seem to still be attached, but rotten. Some eventually fall off as they deteriorate. I have new zoos arriving today. I plan on having a friend keep them until I figure out my problem....HELP !!
bobafett
04/07/2006, 08:53 AM
I'm not sure if the starfish is the cause but I'm not taking any chances. If I find one, I remove it. I know I have high Alkalinity but my calcium level is also at 500 and PH is 8.35. I'm not sure if thats doing it because all my other corals and zoos that are not affected are bright and fully open. I still believe it is an elusive predator that I have not been able to detect or a bacteria/virus I'm not familiar with.
BigScott
04/07/2006, 09:40 AM
I dont ever run my calicum over 420..an i keep getting these wild snails from lfs..ive been lucky with the other predators..i just set up a 20 long with no snails no fish , just my zoas..an thier rocking
i hope you all figure it out.. ill be looking for more info...
big scott
TONY DELBRIDGE
04/11/2006, 09:41 AM
Last night I spotted another one of these serpent type starfish under one of my ricordia. This thing again looks like a type of serpent starfish. I couldn't see the entire starfish, only the hairlike legs which creep out from the crevices. When I try to catch the little bugger, it slithers back into the small cracks. At one point I was able to break off one of its legs. The legs are very tiny, slightly larger than a hair. Larger serpent stars I have had in the past, pull food in with it's tenticles. I have never seen them eating on top of anything. The ones I'm describing, must have been hiding in the live rock hidden for months. Describe the starfish you may have found on yours. Out of 10 colonies, I only have three left. One small colony of 6 polyps is unaffected. The other two are hanging on. I cut off all the dying polyps last night and changed out some more water in case the alkalinity may be the problem. Still have not had time to check it out at the LFS, but have never had a problem with it before. In a 24 gal Nano, I only ocassionally add a squit or so of the A and B and a little iodine. Never really measured it, just add a small dose once a week or so. I still have one original colony which is mostly closed up, but I am keeping it since the polyps still look somewhat healthy. The ones on the other colonies I threw out, looked like they were deteriorating and were falling off. Any more suggestions?
bobafett
04/11/2006, 07:55 PM
Go to www.garf.org and look at the section on the left that says "Aquarium Pests" to see the pics of the starfish they claim eat corals. I have had brittle starfish for many years and they have never harmed any of my corals. This has started happening in my tank over the last three months. What ever is causing this most likely came from a different type of coral that I have added to the tank because every zoo that goes in my tank gets dipped and carefully inspected.
Pufferpunk
04/11/2006, 10:09 PM
Wow, I have these starfish all over my tank & it's all my fault! I put them in there. I was told they were harmless & I thought they were cool to have in there. Just picked out 21 of them & what I think might be a sundial snail. I also found what look like tiny boweevils. Are they harmful too, cause I think I have a lot of them also?
TONY DELBRIDGE
04/13/2006, 02:28 PM
Hey Bobafett, Just looked at GARP.com, these are "not" the starfish that I have. These on GARP actually look like starfish. Mine again look like serpent stars. One of my LFS said if they have the black rings on the legs, they are the BAD kind. I moved some more rocks last night and saw another one. Their legs are like hairs (very long) and they DO have the black rings. I still have not seen the entire body. They are hidden within the live rock. Still not sure if this is the problem or not. After a few water changes, my few colonies are hanging on. One colony still looks unaffected. Some of the dragon eyes were looking bad, but are holding on. Some of my larger colonies, I trashed because they looked rotten. If it was something eating the polyps, you would think the polyp would be totally gone. Mine looked like they were wilting, not opening up, and eventually falling apart.
Zoalander
04/13/2006, 02:38 PM
Those aren't starfish that you are describing or sea serpents. If they are shooting inside a hole in the LR before you can catch them then I'm almost 100 percent sure they are spaghetti worms or spinoid worms. They can irritate zoas but are harmless,
http://www.susanscott.net/OceanWatch1998/jan19-98.html
Zoalander
04/13/2006, 02:47 PM
Bobafett it looks like something is trampling on them. If I brush my hands over a zoas colony and make good contact my zoas do the same thing but after a day or so they are back to normal. See right here, I brushed against these by accident
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/Vetter1980/3ade34cc.jpg
Once at night I saw a small clam looking thing trampling my zoas and thats what they looked like. It had such a good hold that I had to remove the whoel roch and pull it off, I think it may have been an oyster but it moved slowly across my zoas and left a path liek the one in your pic. It defenitley doens't look like a water quality issue but something is laive in your tank causing this.
TONY DELBRIDGE
04/14/2006, 07:18 AM
Thanks Zoalander, This may be it. Again last night I tried to catch this critter. I saw 2-3 tenticles flowing with the current, some touching one of my last colonies of zoos. I have only seen two of these, but always in the same location, thus making me think they may be the spaghetti worms. I pinched off a few tenticles before it retracted back in the live rock, but the next day they are back again. Not sure of what my LFS was decribing as black banded starfish. But mine with the hairlike tenticles does sound like this worm. I actually saw some polythoa at one of my LFS's that looked similiar to what mine did prior to me removing my colony. Mine were wilting similiar to your picture as well as having a whitish looking substance in the middle of thepolyp. I thought it was fungus. I didn't want it to spread so I removed the colony and scrapped off any polyps which looked affected off my live rock. I thought at one time releasing toxins in the water may have caused this. Still cannot fiqure out why most of my zoos were closing up and looked to be rotting. One of my fire and ice colonies looked thick the rock itself was degrading or falling apart. Ian at coral farms still thinks it is my alkalinity too low. I brought a sample of water today to have it checked and will update later. Two of my small colonies look healthy, two are coming back, two are still not opening back up and still look like they are rottening. The 6-8 colonies I trashed, looked like they were past the point of no return. They were not very colorful, but were my largest colonies and not attached to any live rock. Interesting why some are completely destroyed while others look healthy. Still uncertain if it is water quality or pest. All my parameters so far look ok. Checking calcium and alkalinity today.
bobafett
04/17/2006, 11:56 AM
Check out this thread. These are the starfish I was talking about and it looks like they're feasting on the zoos. (see bottom pic)
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=825560
TONY DELBRIDGE
04/18/2006, 08:44 AM
Thanks for the thread bobafett, I have never seen any starfish like these although my zoos do look affected like the ones in the pictures. Other than the critter I talked about, this is the only pest I've seen. I'm starting to suspect water quality again. I checked my alkalinity last week. The LFS said the ALK was OK. "in the middle of the scale". I do not know what that means, but he did say my calcium was LOW. I'm going to another LFS today and try to get a better measurement with a different test kit. I was told I need an ALK of 8-12 DKH and calcium levels of around 400 PPM. I was also told to do more dramatic water changes, up to 5 gallons at a time for a 24 gal nano. I have normally only siphoned off around 1-2 gallons a week to remove extra waste and change the water. Although I do still have a couple of colonies left, the polyps are still closing up and some are turning brown. Only one colony is looking better since my last water change and carbon replacement. I will keep you posted on my parameters...
Zoalander
04/18/2006, 08:44 PM
I dn't think it's your water parameters. I honestly think that there some kind of zoa disease that has spread in your tank. Fungus can spread from zoa colony to zoa colony very easily. Low alk or low calcium IMO will have little impact on zoas. If I were you I would run a UV sterilizer for a month and see what happens.
TONY DELBRIDGE
04/27/2006, 02:32 PM
After changing out most of my water over the past 2 weeks, my remaining zoos look healthy again !! Yeah. Even my prized dime sized dragon eyes have grown several new polyps this week. My calcium was at 250 which I was told needs to be around 400. The ALK levels was OK I was told. Still not sure what was the cause of my meltdown. Although I have NEVER checked calcium or ALK, I have never lost anything in almost 3 years. Just lucky I guess. I am trying to bring up my calcium slowly. I am now keeping an eye on other parameters and trying to do more water changes more often. I trashed many of my less colorful colonies, and held one which looked pretty bad. This one is starting to bounce back. I actually added one new frag and it looks healthy. Still can't believe water quality caused this. I am sure my water has been much worse when I first started my saltwater tank. I still see the hairlike tenticles around my zoos, but I feel like this must be the spaghetti worm and not a type of starfish. Thanks for all the advice zoo lovers. I will keep you posted on any new developments..
MAreefer1
04/28/2006, 06:48 PM
chekc for a very small snail that hangs out among the zoas...it will have a cone shaped protector for the top of its mouth, those zoos look kinda likw what happened to mine, when I had one of those hitchiker snails
RevHtree
04/29/2006, 08:34 AM
I have noticed these trends as well with my RPE's and PPE's. I have noticed the pods actually eating on them??? Maybe or maybe not. I'll check futher now.
Pufferpunk
05/02/2006, 12:04 AM
I've been noticing lots more "spiderwebs" in my tank lately.
deep6er
05/02/2006, 01:05 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7072322#post7072322 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lionfan
Bobafett, For me it was to much light. Are your running metal halides. Could be it. Some zoanthids just can't take it. Most of my pinks and blues don't like it and tend to get the nipple look and then perish unless I move them to shade permanently. Try putting them in the shade .
I dont know if its light I have 1 colony that has done that and all i run is pc lights. and before this they were growing like mad.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/wcdave/zoa2001.jpg
bobafett
05/02/2006, 09:12 AM
I'm still convinced its some type of disease. It just moves from colony to colony like a disease. It also seems that some of the affected zoos become resistant after a while because after the dead ones have withered away the remaining zoos fully open and start to spread (even while the colonies next to them are dying off). My tank was almost completely covered in zoos. I'm wondering if its just a natural way for the older zoos to die out and make room for younger ones since they had very little room to grow.
Pufferpunk
05/02/2006, 09:36 AM
Some of mine do the same but most that have disappeared, don't come back.
Mr. Ugly
05/02/2006, 02:04 PM
I've seen that happen with various zoas in my tank. I do have micro stars and pods, but I don't think they are causing the problem. The healthy zoas have stuff crawling all over and around them and they don't shrink back.
I'm wondering if it's some opportunistic pathogen that's causing the problem when conditions are right. I did have one frag close up and shrink after getting hidden under a fox coral for a day. My impression was that the reduced flow led to the problem.
Another thing, which may be just coincidental, is that it seems like this happens shortly after I manually clean algae from the rocks and overflow. I started to wonder if some nasty stuff was coming out of the algae and bothering the zoas.
I've also had thriving zoa colonys shrink back after being fragged.
One thing I've done which seems to help, is to move the zoas to a completely different tank and just leave them alone. I've had several frags/colonies come back after this. The idea is that if it's some kind of microbe causing the problem, then changing the conditions would provide an environment less hospitable for the disease organism.
Here's an interesting one... I had a frag that had been growing very quickly with large polyps and long skirts. One day, it didn't open, an I could see that it had begun to shrink. Some of the polyps had a loose transparent filmy material on them. It was as if the skin was sloughing off.
I put the frag directly in the stream of a powerhead and blasted it for a while before putting it back. Some of the polyps started to open a few hours later.
The next day they were closed again, and I figured I'd try blasting the frag one more time. This time I found a polyp had turned mushy and smelled of decay. I did a 20 minute iodine/SW dip according to the info on ReefFarmers. (I only do FW for nudis)
After the dip, I blasted the frag again. The next day, the polyps were all opened. I've tried the water blasting with 2 or 3 other frags, and it seems to help.
Anyway, the way I'm looking at it for now is that there may be some pathogen that finds the right conditions to spread. It might involve some type of stress on the zoa which lets the disease take hold. Once that happens, the zoa may begin to close up, and deteriorate, decay, or just starve. Changing temperature, flow, alkalinity, pH may help slow the spread of the disease. If the zoa has started to decay, then iodine/SW and or water blasting might help to keep the deterioration from snowballing.
Can people who are seeing this problem try the water blasting or tank change thing and post back if it seems to help?
Pufferpunk
05/02/2006, 06:23 PM
I did have one frag close up and shrink after getting hidden under a fox coral for a day. My impression was that the reduced flow led to the problem.
I've been considering the same thing. I have lower flow at the bottom 1/2 of my tank. That's where they are closing & disappearing. I will be setting up a new (larger) tank in a month. Everyone will get dopped, etc. before going into their new digs.
malkier22
05/03/2006, 07:10 PM
weird looking...
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