Is our hobby driving the horror?

[axepilot]

I'm a noob here at RC, but a long time marine fish keeper. I've been lurking here for the past few days and I've noticed many threads and replies about the poor conditions at LFS's, the plight of the reefs, and general angst over the care of fish.

Once again, is our hobby driving the horror? Are we contributing to wild reefs being fragged out? Are contributing to all of the local horrors at LFS's?

From a purely analytical standpoint, a market cannot survive without a demand. That as a given, with no demand for corals, fishes, etc, there would be no livestock sold at LFS's, and hence no more horrors.

I submit that we, ourselves as hobbyists, are a major part of the problem.....................

Food for thought...........................

That said, I love this hobby. I am a very reponsible keeper and I go to great lengths to ensure the care and well being of the citizens in my tank. If we are to continue this hobby, we have to accept the good with the bad. I only patronize LFS's that take care of their stock. I can't cry over bad conditions at another LFS, the plight of the reefs, etc.

If I did, I would feel morally bound to quit this hobby.


Something to mull over in quiet moments....

[axepilot]

Hmmm....................

Eight looks and no takers? Nobody wants to broach this subject?

[jiggy]

hobbyists cause minimal damage to the environment, if any at all. we are actually helping through propogation and fragging corals in our home aquariums.
what ur talking about is like trying to blame people who own parrots for the deterioration of the natural populations in the amazon and not blame deforestation.

and when it comes to lfs, i dont think we fuel the fire. if we boycott, some kids that dont know anything will buy the fish.

[axepilot]

Just what I thought would happen - none of us want to admit to possibly being part of the problem that some of us wring our hands and cry about..............................


Bottom line - it's a hobby that involves live animals. The LFS's see that stock as product - plain and simple. Some are better, some are worse in their care of the stock. Choose your LFS carefully.................................................


................................but please don't petition a hue and cry over the plight of the poor animals. Not every merchant is as caring as the next. LFS's don't need to provide a 100 gallon tank for their yellow tangs. They're not keeping them, they're selling them in hopes that the product will move.

Cry not for the yellow tangs, the corals, etc - unless you don't buy them or keep a tank............................


We are the force that drives the market, whether we can admit that to ourselves or not.............

[axepilot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7046397#post7046397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jiggy
hobbyists cause minimal damage to the environment, if any at all. we are actually helping through propogation and fragging corals in our home aquariums.
what ur talking about is like trying to blame people who own parrots for the deterioration of the natural populations in the amazon and not blame deforestation.

and when it comes to lfs, i dont think we fuel the fire. if we boycott, some kids that dont know anything will buy the fish.

No. I'm playing "Devil's Advocate" here. I just see a conflict between those that keep a tank while they bemoan the process of providing them their livestock. It is what it is.

[mahoneyc3]

i beilve that you have a very valid point, but consider this, with world wide bleaching of reefs and the polution of the oceans become more of a problem every day, maybe this hobby is the only thing that will be able to save the animals we love, also anyone worried about this should check out garf.org its a great site.
thanks- chris

[Scuba_Dave]

Do some research

I've been to a lot of islands, they either catch the fish to eat, or sell them to eat. Or they are caught to be shipped somewhere else to be eaten

There isn't a good answer. The world is changing, the reefs are changing, for the worse it appears. Large worldwide weather events are happening that totally eclipse any effect we may have

And tanks may very well be the only place to see some corals one day

There are bad & good pet stores whenever animals are involved
What about minks that are raised in cages for their fur?
Wholesale slaughter of cows, chickens, pigs for food?
What, they aren't kept as pets so they don't count?

[Daytymer]

I agree that we contribute. It is a supply/demand thing. Think too, how many times have you heard someone say they bought a dying fish/coral to "save it from a horrific death" from the LFS. Come on guys, the stores aren't stupid. They know darn good and well that one of us is going to feel sympathethic or challenged enough to want to buy the less than perfect specimen. And since they know that we will buy, they continue to provide them to us. A perfect example is currently at one of my LFS. They had an order of corals come in and one of the pieces was a lobophylia brain. It had punctured the bag and came in dry. Out of 4-5 heads only one is still living and that is only because the LFS has really put a lot of effort into saving it. With that said, they do have it up for sale to try and recoup their cost. It will sell one day, to the right buyer. **Side note**The store I'm referring to has immaculate tanks and beautifully kept specimens. The fact that they were able to save this brain is an example of that.

So yes, we are responsible. I am a responsible reefkeeper in the sense that I do everything I can to make sure my inhabitants are healthy and thriving. Have I personally damaged the worlds ecosystem? Technically yes, because I have purchased wild caught specimens. Am I the sole cause.. no. In the grand scheme of things, my purchases are the size of the grains of sand in the ocean. My contribution to the decline of the ocean doesn't really throw one parameter out of wack. Now, all the crap that get's spilled or dumped in there... that is another story.

[RobbyG]

No simple answer to your question, bleaching is killing reefs and Global warming is killing reefs. The Aquarium trade contributes a very small fraction to the overall amount of wasted fish deaths per year.

So long as the hobby remains small it's not a great impact, but if it should ever become cheaper, easier and more popular, the reefs would be devastated. The LFS I have met for the most part did not seem to be helping the situation, the low prices that wholesalers charge them for fish versus the high price they sell for makes for a really poor system.

Even though the educated reefers know what to avoid and shops only at good LFS, for every person like that the bad LFS will find 5 others who just plunk down their money.

[Mogrash]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7046055#post7046055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by axepilot
I'm a noob here at RC, but a long time marine fish keeper. I've been lurking here for the past few days and I've noticed many threads and replies about the poor conditions at LFS's, the plight of the reefs, and general angst over the care of fish.

Once again, is our hobby driving the horror?

Which horror? 'the horror' is rather non-specific...

Are we contributing to wild reefs being fragged out?
Insignificant compared to natural fragging that occurs during storms/natural disasters/coral eating fish/boating etc..

Are contributing to all of the local horrors at LFS's?

Only if you are an irresponsible/uneducated buyer that supports poorly run and maintained LFS. If you buy something at a poorly run LFS then yes you contribute to them staying in business...but that's obvious, no?

From a purely analytical standpoint, a market cannot survive without a demand. That as a given, with no demand for corals, fishes, etc, there would be no livestock sold at LFS's, and hence no more horrors.

Define horror please? These aren't domesticated animals and as such are subject to survival of the fittest to the nth degree. They are part of the food chain. From corals through to coral eating fish up to the sharks that eat the coral eating fish. Is it a horror that millions of fish die each day to...other fish? Does it become more of a horrow when I eat my Cod or Rainbow Trout? I don't think so. I'm an animal just like the fish. I'm part of that great circle of life thing. Now, if I was to buy a fish then torture it because I'm a human and capable of sick twisted things then....well.

Of course I have also seen fish pick on each other until one of them is dead. That's nature.


I submit that we, ourselves as hobbyists, are a major part of the problem.....................

I submit that generalizing that all hobbyists are part of a problem is disrespectful to the many that are respectful to our pets. While some hobbyists do help keep bad LFS in business, the generalization that we as hobbyists and as an industry as a whole has any sort of impact compared to the other problems and environmental factors on the oceans and reefs is seriously misguided.

That said, I love this hobby. I am a very reponsible keeper and I go to great lengths to ensure the care and well being of the citizens in my tank. If we are to continue this hobby, we have to accept the good with the bad. I only patronize LFS's that take care of their stock. I can't cry over bad conditions at another LFS, the plight of the reefs, etc.

Based on this statement I totally do not understand why you even posted this?

Please understand. The hobby does not drive the horror. People drive the horror. People that support bad LFS. That is akin to saying guns kill people. No, people kill people.

But this is nothing new. People can't take care of cats, dogs, goldfish. But to dwell why the majority of people give a rats arse about animals and each other is to waste ones time.

[jobiwan]

I've seen great improvements in the last 30 years, back then decorative coral was blasted out of reefs with dynamite and cyanide collection was the norm. The awareness our hobby has generated more than makes up for wild collecting IMHO, if you want to you can join a local club and stock your tank totally with frags, that is a wonderful trend, not only are we sparing the reefs more and more, we are getting livestock that is already acclimated to captive husbandry, nothing like watching a $100.00 wild coral slowly die in your tank to make you a believer in frag swapping....

[Seadogs]

I'm a noob and I am still learning a lot. As far as neglectful LFS, are they any different than puppy mills? As a pure bred Scottish Terrier owner, I love the breed and HATE puppy mills and the people (and stores) that support them. But, I fully support responsible breeders that care for their animals for the love of the breed. I know, dogs are domesticated and reefs are not. But, if it weren't for the people who love the reefs and all the life therein, the people in this hobby, wouldn't their be less support for responsible reef keeping, leaving only irresponsible stores and people buying "Nemos and Dorys" and a 10 gal. tank because their kids throw a fit in the pet store?
Just my two cents worth.

[Anthozoan]

Also, keep in mind the educational value of being able to have a reef aquarium in our homes DOES count for something. How many guests to your house have seen your tank and asked a question or was awed to actually see a LIVE coral up close? It may not save the reefs, but it does count for something. And while the reef hobby isn't 100% science, remeber that science for as long as it has existed has required thousands of sacrificed living organisms in order to better understand them. Scientists rely just as much on "trial and error" and good luck as an average aquarist trying to do the best to keep their expensive pets alive.

As an aside, I hope you realize just how BAD of a track record public aquariums have in regards to keeping fish and corals alive. When a new aquarium opens, inevitably upper management will demand that the tanks be as chock-a-block full as they ever will, and the tanks usually haven't cycled all the way. This means quite often massive mortality that the tourist may never see, but as a collector for public aquariums, they go through a LOT of FISH. The situation is further compounded by the fact that these marine biologists like to sit up on their high horses and think that they know more than you lowly hobbyist, and don't respond as well to constructive criticism as many newbies in a LFS will. When a fish dies under their supervision, it doesn't come out of their paycheck. A hobbyist, on the other hand is going to change his methods real fast when he starts losing hundred of dollars of livestock every month. I don't want to generalize too much here either. Clearly there are great marine biologists at public aquariums, just as there are hobbyists who will never learn. Public aquariums are forever indebted to the ground breaking work of hobbyists in learning how to keep corals alive. And hobbyists have learned a lot from those at public aquariums (thank you Bruce Carlson). But is important not to put anyone too high above the ethics and morality that come with being responsible for keeping an animal alive.

Yes we are part of the problem, but we are also part of the briney solution...

[Thales]

I think the hobby does have impact - it has to as we are taking more from the reef than we are putting back. What bothers me most is the amount of death that occurs before the animals get to the hobbyist.
I think the hobby is too cheap. Fish prices haven't changed significantly in the last 20 years. FWIU, European markets pay double than US markets.
The bulk of hobbyists are uninformed/uneducated, and seem more interested in low prices than in quality, healthy animals. I think that even often applies to hobbyists that are informed and educated. People want to pay as little as possible for what they want.
I don't know if I agree about the overall impact of reeftanks as education, as that argument doesn't work with other animals.

I think being part of the hobby at all drives 'the horror', but I don't really know how bad a thing that is.

[GreshamH]

FWIW, the EU seems to pay more for just about everything though Lefty :D Just look a gas ;)

[Thales]

Quit stalking me!

:D

I wasn't going to bring that up! I think we should pay more for gas too, but thats lounge talk!

[45commando]

"Is our hobby driving the horror?"
I don't think so,when you compare what we,as a group take from the reef;compared to say a single "A" bomb test carried out by the French-amidst much protesting-at ,I believe Bikini Atoll,just a few years ago.Or what about any time a new marina is constructed at a tropical resort.If there was/is a reef,then it is soon destroyed to make a channel for the boats/ships.
Are we the horror-I don't think so,but if mankind keeps on doing what we do,the reef hobbyists might be the only solution the reefs have.

[saltfever]

Without us reefers the wonder of the reefs might be lost to our kids,grand kids ...... In 10 or 20 years are there going to be natural reefs? With the way thing are going no! Polution, global warming,storms, careless boaters and divers....... take more of a toll in a year or two then reefers have in the past 10 years. Responsible reefers that do everything they can to get captive breed fish and captive raised corals that is the future. Frag buying and traiding are responsibly ways to fill a reef tank. Without us our kids grand kids...... may never see the reef creatures we love. Because it is a very real posibility the wild reefs wont be around for them to learn from. Are we contributing to the decline of the reefs? The simple ansure is yes. But are we the group that may save the remnits of a naturally extinct habitat. That was lost due to what we have done as a race not a hobby. In the end the reef hobby will play a insicnificant role in the decline of reefs. Remember look for captive raised.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7095319#post7095319 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
Quit stalking me!

:D

I wasn't going to bring that up! I think we should pay more for gas too, but thats lounge talk!

Until you get that restraining order..... :D


LOL, quit going where I hang out:p

I do feel we don't pay enough for our critters here stateside. From working every angle possiable, besides exporter/collector, I can tell you that not much has changed price wise is 20 some odd years, besides the named coral fad.

To be fair though, the Japanesse eat a 1/3 of all seafood :D

[RobbyG]

I agree with your statement, but not exactly the way you meant it. I think the fish prices are too cheap to the LFS but are as expensive as they need to be to the End consumer.

It's because of the Fact that an LFS can buy a Hippo Tang for $8 and resell it for $35 that makes most LFS just handle the fish with disregard! If even 3 out of 5 fish die an LFS can still make a profit so why be careful, why go out of your way to make sure they all survive when you can afford to lose 50% and still come out on top. Yes you could make a bigger profit by Babying them but they will tell you it uses to much man power, holding space and time, to do it carefully, so why bother!

Why do you think all these new chains of pet stores sell SW Fish, even though they are so difficult to keep alive? Because they get them dirt cheap and sell them for Big $$ so they know that they can afford to lose lots of them and still make a huge profit.

This to me is the biggest Sin that goes on in the SW Aquarium trade.




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7094722#post7094722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
.
I think the hobby is too cheap. Fish prices haven't changed significantly in the last 20 years. FWIU, European markets pay double than US markets.
The bulk of hobbyists are uninformed/uneducated, and seem more interested in low prices than in quality, healthy animals. I think that even often applies to hobbyists that are informed and educated. People want to pay as little as possible for what they want.
I don't know if I agree about the overall impact of reeftanks as education, as that argument doesn't work with other animals.

I think being part of the hobby at all drives 'the horror', but I don't really know how bad a thing that is.

[Thales]

That just seems like a icky LFS making way too much on the markup. Most do not mark up 4x. I also disagree that they think they are disposable because they are going to make a huge profit on some of them. I think they may feel they are disposable because they get them so cheaply. If they were more expensive, everyone at every level might think more carefully before buying.

I am all for people making money, and I think the price issue starts at collection, not at the LFS. If the collectors got paid more for what they collect, the entire price chain would rise, and I think that is a good thing.

In essence, I think we are talking about the same thing. Volume. I think the idea of volume sales in marine ornamentals is icky.

[The Marmot]

No I don't think that "We" being all reefkeepers, contribute to the demise of our wild reefs. Because, I for one do not generally support the LFS. My tank is stocked with 100% captive raised corals. All aquired via club frag swaps, and a few purchases from a few of the LFS that actually propegate. There are enough LE pieces currently being propped that the demand for collected pieces seems to have diminished. At least thats what is easy to assume after seeing the LFS selection degrade over the last year or so. Take a good look at your tanks and count the captive raised pieces. If they total less than 50% of your livestock, then it may be time to join a local club and encourage other hobbyists to do the same. If we can honestly say that our animals come from other hobbyists, and not poached from some reef somewhere, then we can enjoy our hobby guilt free. Besides, like someone else mentioned, eventually there may be no reefs. And with that in mind, it makes sense that we should be keeping these animals in captivity, they have a better chance at life that way. If all the wild colonies are wiped out due to polution, climate, etc., then we need to keep these animals where we can study them, propegate them, and hopefully someday, re-stock the oceans.

[Thales]

Doesn't just the electricity used to power our home reefs help further the demise of wild reefs?

[RobbyG]

Lets not go over the edge now :rolleyes: It' statements like this that make Environmentalists lose credability with the regular Joe Blow.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7105098#post7105098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
Doesn't just the electricity used to power our home reefs help further the demise of wild reefs?

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7105735#post7105735 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RobbyG
Lets not go over the edge now :rolleyes: It' statements like this that make Environmentalists lose credability with the regular Joe Blow.

How do you feel that this it was over the edge? Am I talking with fellow reefers or regular Joe Blows? Are you saying that the resources used to create the electricity that we pour into our home reefs doesn't have impact on wild reefs?

[RobbyG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7104930#post7104930 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The Marmot
My tank is stocked with 100% captive raised corals. All aquired via club frag swaps, and a few purchases from a few of the LFS that actually propegate. .

Wish I could say the same, I would feel a lot better about my Tank if it was like yours.

[The Marmot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7105098#post7105098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
Doesn't just the electricity used to power our home reefs help further the demise of wild reefs?

Yes, it can be argued that bi-products of the resources used to power the worlds cities is part of the problem. But the point I was trying to make was that I do what I can to not support the retail trade of wild caught animals. Heck even my dog is pedigreed, I refuse to even purchase common pets from a pet store; out of fear of un-wittingly supporting an animal farm,(well I did "rescue" a 5 week old kitten from a pet store, but it if the cat hadn't been without it's mother at that age, it would have been on it's own!). Anyway...if I could live without using electricity, gas, oil, etc...I would. But as much as I want to do my part, I'm not an Eco-Nut, and I won't go that far.

[Thales]

Thats great! As long as people realize that simply keeping an aquarium makes the aquarium keep at least part of the general problem I feel good. I think people should do what they can, while at the same time realizing that even the best efforts have some negative impact that shouldn't be ignored :D.

[RobbyG]

Ah yes it does impact it, but so does just about everything else we do! Watch some TV use your Microwave, they all use electricity, Reef Tanks probably use about .00000000000000000000000000000001% of all the power consumed world wide. That same percentage is how much reef Tanks destroy reefs via energy use versus everything else that uses power. And yes it's a trivial number.


QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7105812#post7105812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
How do you feel that this it was over the edge? Am I talking with fellow reefers or regular Joe Blows? Are you saying that the resources used to create the electricity that we pour into our home reefs doesn't have impact on wild reefs? [/QUOTE]

[Thales]

I don't believe it is a trivial number because of how relates to the infrastructure needed to get those reeftanks their power.

[Anthozoan]

All this *****ing about whether the use of electricity for our reef tanks is impacting the reefs via your electrically operated computer is impacting the reefs! Quick, turnoff your computers. Wait, better yet, move to a tropical island with your corals and use the natural sunlight and saltwater, (circulated by hamsters turning an archimedes screw). But wait, just living on that island negatively impacts the reef. Doh! I think the only answer is for all us environementally concious consumers to kill ourselves, sacrificed to the reefs we love, and let the 'clean up crews' have at. However, we have to go one at a time, or else there will just be a huge algae bloom that will negatively impact the reef.

Please, can we have some realistic discussion here? At the level of human population on the planet, we are already beyond living in ecological balance. Period. The best we can do is the best of the worst options for us. I don't think there is any educated person out there that is going to try to argue that the reefs are going to get any healthier in the future, and you'd be damned pressed to find anyone that will even argue that they will maintain as they are. They are going downhill, how fast we choose to let them slide is (hopefully still ) up to us. Clearly, choosing just what the most viable of the best of the worst options is a tricky subjective subject. And now let the debate continue...

Oh yeah, can I also point out that without the reef hobby to unite us, none of us would be in this forum exchanging viewpoints about how best to save the reefs...

[RobbyG]

The electricity point I agree, this is so trivial a point thats it's not worth discussing further.
I would disagree that the reefs cannot be saved, it's all just a matter of whats important to people. I have seen a really nice improvement in the reefs here because they made the area into a marine Park, so now boats don't anchor and fishermen dont use the area and the waste from large hotels is monitored better. If people decide to halt doing the things that have created global warming the reefs could make a major recovery in 1 or 2 decades. This is not an impossible task, places like Sweden, Dennmark, Germany , Brazil and many other parts of the world are already doing it.

[Anthozoan]

I agree also that indeed SOME reefs will show improvements in the future due to better management. However, when leveraged against ALL the reefs in the world, I don't think that we are going to see overall movement in the right direction. Heck, down here in the Keys, there are probably more laws and protected zones than just about any reef on Earth. But the reefs here aren't doing that great. I wouldn't say that they are sliding terribly fast either though. The biggest culprits are probably from the runoff of fertilizers from the sugar plantations in the Everglades, and then just simple human activity like boating, fishing, diving, and having a high population density 5 miles from the reef. Finding acropora is a mission these days, although the few colonies that I see look like they are doing well, so we can hope that in 10-20 years we will have staghorn and elkhorn thickets like there used to be back in the 70s.

As for reversing climate change, I'd say that at best, to reverse the trend of global warming we are looking at a nearly impossible wall of deaf ears. The US won't approve the Kyoto protocol, and even that wouldn't be enough to do much, but it certainly is a great first step. I just read today that the EPA is looking to open up a loophole to allow the biggest polluters to pollute even more. (See here) (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5321132) That is our "Environmental PROTECTION agency" mind you...If "developed" nations like the USA won't set an expample, then how can we expect developing nations to follow along? Developed nations, such as ourselves, are where we are today because we did our developing in another era, when there was no thought given to pollution. Now of course we want to hold everyone else to higher Most developing nations, especially tropical island nations simply burn their trash in the backyard (or often in the street). I recall from my experience in the Solomon Islands, the sight of batteries laying all over the place as the smell of trash hung in the air. Without electricity, they use these disposable batteries (it's pretty tough to use rechargeable batteries without electricity), and they just throw them out into their gardens or street or literally where ever. It is easy for us to point blame at this ignorance, but shoot, I don't have a clue what happens to all my trash once the garbage truck takes it away.

Another vein in the aging body of humanity...

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7111217#post7111217 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthozoan
All this *****ing about whether the use of electricity for our reef tanks is impacting the reefs via your electrically operated computer is impacting the reefs! Quick, turnoff your computers. Wait, better yet, move to a tropical island with your corals and use the natural sunlight and saltwater, (circulated by hamsters turning an archimedes screw). But wait, just living on that island negatively impacts the reef. Doh! I think the only answer is for all us environementally concious consumers to kill ourselves, sacrificed to the reefs we love, and let the 'clean up crews' have at. However, we have to go one at a time, or else there will just be a huge algae bloom that will negatively impact the reef.

Please, can we have some realistic discussion here?

How can you call for realistic discussion when your first paragraph as nothing to do with reality, or the reality of the discussion so far?
Intentionally pushing anothers arguments to extremes that no one is arguing belittles the entire discussion.

At the level of human population on the planet, we are already beyond living in ecological balance. Period. The best we can do is the best of the worst options for us. I don't think there is any educated person out there that is going to try to argue that the reefs are going to get any healthier in the future, and you'd be damned pressed to find anyone that will even argue that they will maintain as they are. They are going downhill, how fast we choose to let them slide is (hopefully still ) up to us. Clearly, choosing just what the most viable of the best of the worst options is a tricky subjective subject. And now let the debate continue...

So, you advocate we ramp up wild coral collection because the reefs are doomed anyway? Or, is that just an extreme version of what you wrote that you don't actually believe. ;)

Oh yeah, can I also point out that without the reef hobby to unite us, none of us would be in this forum exchanging viewpoints about how best to save the reefs...

That seems pretty obvious. :D

[Anthozoan]

I was being satirical...

As for what we should do? Anything that each and every one of us feels is what we need to do to save the reefs, is what we should each do. If that means for some, running their metal halides on solar power, then that's what you have to do. Or if it simply means buying aquacultured specimens, then do that. As this discussion exposes, everyone has different ideas of what needs to be done. But thankfully we all agree that the reefs are worthy of being saved.

For my part, I will be interning with the Marine Aquarium Council for 6 months in Bali starting in July. I will be helping to bring the local coral aquaculture efforts up to a MAC certifiable level. This will entail showing them sustainable collection of broodstock, correct species selection, proper attachement, what morphologies people pay the most for, etc. I know, it is a tough job, but someone has to do it.

I don't advocate raping the reefs like Lefty is insinuating. I do think it would be great if some magic pile of money fell out of the sky which could be used to fund a live coral genetic bank, that would ensure that all species and morphologies of coral are preserved should we ever lose the reefs. Until that time, we the reef hobbyists are making up the collective network of that genetic bank. And yes, wild collection, if done responsibly should continue.

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7112476#post7112476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthozoan

I don't advocate raping the reefs like Lefty is insinuating.

You missed my point, and the winkie! :D

I think this just illustrates that that kind of belittling satire can really damage this kind of discussion.

[Anthozoan]

yeah, these emoticons can be confusing. As you can see I'm new around here. To be completely honest, I'm mostly looking for a quick way to get 50 posts without having to go into the Lounge. I'm not trying to BS anyone though, I think I have an interesting perspective as a marine biologidt/marine life collector that I can bring to the table. But until I get 50 posts, I can't use the trading forum to trade anyone my sweet ricordeas and corallimorphs...

[Atomahawk]

Personally I feel the wild caught aquatic fish and invert industry has had a very minimal direct impact on stocks of these animals. Over fishing for the food industry, off shore pollution and run off from agriculture, ozone layer depletion, improper waist disposal chemical and organic, dredging and dynamiting, oil spills and pollution from sea going vessels and off shore rigs, increased population and the tourism industry near reefs. Have way more negative impact that our hobby.

For every Copperband Butterfly or Tang caught for the hobby 1000’s, die as trash fish caught in trawlers nets. For every piece of coral taken for our hobby 1000’s go to the ornamental trade as decorations or destroyed to dredging from construction or die from pollution. Our industry is a drop in the bucket compared to massive destruction caused by every other environmental impacting activity that man has devised.

Do’s that mean we should take the high road attitude towards our hobby because we have a lower impact? Of course not! Like any other animal we would care for we should strive to do our utmost to home our pets in the most carrying and compassionate manner possible. By continuing our hobby we should also be striving to understand what these animals need to not only survive but to thrive. I believe we have come a very long way towards achieving those goals, despite the many sacrifices animals over the years. I know the success rate at keeping the animals over extended periods of time has dramatically increased over the past 25 years. We are doing what couldn’t be done because of the perseverance of ardent hobbyist’s and the discoveries and experiments done by them that was shared for all to improve themselves as keepers.

Are their things that need improving? Yes, for starters I think it’s high time that a special fish keeping course be mandatory for all stores that wish to keep marine fish. It should be considered a profession or a specialty. A licensed person would always have to be on hand to answer questions regarding saltwater inquiries. Stores should be obliged to have minimum of proper equipment to properly take care of marine fish and inverts. Distributors should have the same exact obligations as stores. You want to see healthy fish and inverts and stores clean up their act, this would definitely be a huge step in the right direction. Yes it will all add up in cost to the consumer, but then again maybe little Nemo buyers will think twice then.

I’m sure more could be done, but this would be a start.

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7113335#post7113335 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Anthozoan
I'm not trying to BS anyone though, I think I have an interesting perspective as a marine biologidt/marine life collector that I can bring to the table. But until I get 50 posts, I can't use the trading forum to trade anyone my sweet ricordeas and corallimorphs...

Hate to break the news to you, but as a collector you fall under what RC deems commercial and will need to abide by the commercial part of the [ua] . The upshot of that is, even with 50 posts you will not be allowed to trade/sell.

Otherwise, you are more than welcome to bring your experience and knowledge to the table ;)

[hgbarwick]

If you by a fish or coarl from a LFS you could be saving its life. When people collect fish from the reef for the hobby they arnt deystroing the reef. In 50 years from now hobbyist fish tanks may be the only places to see these enviroments.

[Ken-21]

You want to play Devil's advocate? fine................How many fish do you have?
How many corals?
Where did you get them from?
Were they taken with care or ripped of the reef?
Do you frag and sell?
Do you encourage other people to do this hobbie either directly or indirectly?
How many tanks do you have?
You attack us for reading your post to get a response only to play "Devils Advocate!"

I can't speak for other people but I read this forum to educate myself and to help others, if i can, not to fight. I wish you luck on whatever it is you're trying to do!

That is my response to your post.

[mjdlonghorn]

The atlantic cod fisherman that lived in the boston area use to say "this is our livelyhood we would never do anyting to harm it." Then they proceeded to destroy the carrying capacity of the cod in the area until fishing had to be banned. I think a similar pattern may be developing with the saltwater fish market. I think someone needs to over-regulate the collection of tropical fish. Indoensia allows mimic octopus to be collected, even though everyone understands that they are rare and infrequent. I think marine fish should be so expensive that only a few would be able to afford them. Keeping marine aquariums should be a privalege not a right.

PS. I also think gas prices should be set around $4 a gallon so only a few people can use the roads and everyone else can take public transportation. Again remeber driving is a privelige not a right.

[Randall_James]

What a gas, to think our hobby has an impact on wild populations is pretty arrogant.

Commercial fishing has more to say about reef conditions than any other ocean going influence. You then add on poverty stricken 3rd world countries that harvest with dynamite, poison and anything else they can get their hands on (including commercial nets that have been jettisoned rather than collected and fixed).
Bleaching the fault of the hobbyist? yea right (also the biggest issue on the reefs) I think you will have a problem laying any of the issues on the hobby other than maybe isolated areas that are denuded of a specific species due to harvesting. So blame it on anyone that say has a wild harvested Anemone......

Funny thread for a person to start in a hobby forum other than to just stir up a few emotional types. Hobbyist killing the oceans , man I need a laugh track playing here :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tkeracer619]

this is the 39th post with no response from the creator.

Seems like he doesnt want to touch it now that he might have done some research. Lol

Ever see a yellow tang caught and ate. It happens every day all day long. My fish usually last longer than lunch.

What we damage in the reefs is minimal compared to say biulding an airport on water, offshore drilling, global warming, pollution, fishing, etc, etc, etc.................

Most corals are frag grown and not pulled from the ocean anyways. It's free to frag, and the corals are healthy.

[Thales]

That doesn't mean that we can or should ignore the damage our hobby does.

Also, at this point the vast bulk of corals for sale in the industry are pulled from the ocean, not fragged or aquacultured.

[tkeracer619]

Nobody should ignore the problem, we know it exists.

I'm not sure about my LR or what came on it since I got it from people on RC. <-- Did my part not to destruct the environment here.

My corals are all from frags, of frags, from people on RC <--- Once again did my part to be friendly to the echo system.

My sand came from someone on RC <---- Yet again recycling a once natural product to continue its life instead of the trash can.

Overall the only thing I can think of that I got from the ocean were my fish....... and even then some of them came from RC and 2 rescued from petkiller.

Who's not doing there part. Not I. Its all what you choose to do.

[birdfish]

10% of the world's Co2 emmisions are generated by the 600 coal-fired electric plants in the U.S., because we are afraid of
nuke power. The hobby is not the problem. Of 7000 islands in
the Philippines how many are collected for corals? NONE ! such is the case in most island groups. Dredging for profit ventures,
as pointed out does far more damage than all the collectors put together. 95% of the islands in the world have never been collected. They are ALL in danger due to human population
and general disrespect for all things non human. We should step
up collecting 10,000% to try to build gene pools of each island group as a hedge against the day, and it will come, when, as we did with so many species on the verge of extinction, the collectors and hobbyists will have the gene pools to save them.

[Randall_James]

I find certain regions of the "Human" gene pool in dire need of a splash of "chlorine" myself...

The same people that are screaming conspiracy and foul about the gas companies making billions on $3 a gallon gas are the exact same people that for 30 years have fought tooth and nail to keep any new refineries from being built (supply and demand is the cause of fuel prices, if we could refine the fuel, it would up the supply, this decreases prices)
It would lead me to believe that these would be the same people blaming hobbyist on the decline of the reefs (oh and they complain about the price of lobster too) :)

[Paulster]

Hi..

My first post here....so hello everyone.

I'm in the process of setting up my first marine aquarium, and as a lover for all natural life on this planet this was the one topic i was torn over,
I believe that everyone has their part to play however small to protect the reefs from abuse..
By purchasing from reputable dealers and by being INFORMED on which species are NOT suitable for captive living.

I think it's important to discuss these topics and that if someone or informed body could produce a regularly updated list of species that should not be not be kept and LFS be obliged to do so too.

Lets hope some sort of regulation is enforced soon.

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7403092#post7403092 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paulster
Hi..

My first post here....so hello everyone.

I'm in the process of setting up my first marine aquarium, and as a lover for all natural life on this planet this was the one topic i was torn over,
I believe that everyone has their part to play however small to protect the reefs from abuse..
By purchasing from reputable dealers and by being INFORMED on which species are NOT suitable for captive living.

I think it's important to discuss these topics and that if someone or informed body could produce a regularly updated list of species that should not be not be kept and LFS be obliged to do so too.

Lets hope some sort of regulation is enforced soon.

[welcome]

Research is key, impulse buys are often big mistakes for most. Most livestock suitable for home tanks is propagated in captivity good for us. There is still a lot of wild caught that is just fine but again, research is critical Good Luck on your new tank!

[Paulster]

Cheers James...

[Balduron]

Hmmm, I have been debating about posting, and it got the better of me. When I think about the reefs, and the disrespect that is shown to them, I remember one thing, Who created them. That being said, I also remember that I am not big enough to make a huge positive impact, but the Creator is, and If I listen to God's directions as to what I am to do(After all, he did command mankind to "subdue" the earth) I know that He did not mean to DESTROY it, but to "use it" in a fitting manner. That being said, I know that he would whole heartedly approve of captive breading, and captive propogation. But what of my part?? That is to, as many people have mentioned, educate myself, and to do the best of my ability to keep healthy and productive fish and corals and other reef animals.

However, I feel that the problem is much bigger than an individual issue, after all, look at what the impact of the polution(just solid dremains that settles in our streems, rivers, lakes and oceans)has caused. All that poisoning of the land and waters. You see, that is caused by the greed and pride of the people running the huge corperations. Have they asked God what they should do to "subdue" the Earth?? I am not a judge, but I would have to say, from the results of their actions, absolutely not. I do not feel that laws or more regulations will help(after all, all the laws about guns in schools have only caused more kids to end up dead) I say that each person, not just those in the hobby, but all people need to come to an understanding of how they are commanded to treat this Earth.

The thing that I am trying to point out is that People are the culperates, and they seem to hide behind "the beterment of the world" or "it is for the Company", but in my opinion, it is greed that drives the polution of this planet, and it is greed that drives this hobby. I mean, look at it on an individual basis. Take me, for example, why do I work?? to pay bills, feed my son and me, to buy a few nice things. Why do I strive for more money, a promotion, beter job, be it even a little bit, at some point, it could be grered. I WANT MORE CASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and that is what drives the main causes of polution. They want more cash.

I would like to ask, however, what is it that is causing "Global Warrming" Because the few articals that I have either read, or heard in lecture form, have attributed this effect to the mass amounts of CO2 that is being pumpped into the atmosphere. However, the level of this gas has been recorded and measured for over 150 years. Acording to the "Global Warrming" proponents, When "X" amount of CO2 is added to the atmosphere, then the global temp. will raise 1 degree. According to that formula, right now the Earth should be unihabitable, since in over the past 150 Years that they have been recording CO2 in the atmosphere, it has increased many times "X" Making the Temperature way to hot to support life. However, there is a 16 Degree area that the Earths average temperature has maintained over the past 150 years, fluctuating 8 Degrees both ways from the average.

Sorry for such a long post, but I think(if I do not sound like I am totally crazy) that I just might have some form of passion toward this topic. My biggest thing is Responsibility, and many people in charge of things do not have it.


Balduron

[Thales]

Do you think God would be ok with us cramming animals into little boxes for our own personal gratification?

[Balduron]

Absolutely, as long as we did not so as I did when I first enterd the hobby thinking, since my parents had aquariums when I was young, that I knew all I needed to know. Without educating myself, I got a 29G tank and put 2 Oscars, 2 Convicts, 2 Jackdempsies and a Pleco in it. I ended up returning the Dempsies and the Pleco, the Oscars killed the male Convict, one of the Oscars died from HLLE(Head and Lateral Line Erosion).That was grosley stupid, wrong and very sinfull. I have since bought a 75G tank, the Oscar, Female Convict, and a new Pleco are doing gret. I have also added the only survivor of my father's tank, a little 2 " catfish(not sure of the species).

What God expects from us concerning animals is responsability. If we as humans did not domesticate some animals, think of all the chaos that would be caused from the needless hunting of the wild dogs, or Ferril cats. What about horses running wild everywhere, that would cause a great danger to all of us driving on the roads. So that may be diferent from fish, however, God does want us to be happy people, and for some of us, fish make us exceedingly happy. Others, like my son, do not care for fish,however, he is using my 29G tank for his Bearded Lizzard. God just expects us to be responsible and provide our pets with a good healthy life.

[Mogrash]

Oh great....now God is going to tell us how to take care of our fish?

:confused:

[JmLee]

you know what I think.... i think this guy just bombed out on he's own thread.... where you hidng at axepilot?.

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7420620#post7420620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Balduron
[B]Absolutely, as long as we did not so as I did when I first enterd the hobby thinking, since my parents had aquariums when I was young, that I knew all I needed to know. Without educating myself, I got a 29G tank and put 2 Oscars, 2 Convicts, 2 Jackdempsies and a Pleco in it. I ended up returning the Dempsies and the Pleco, the Oscars killed the male Convict, one of the Oscars died from HLLE(Head and Lateral Line Erosion).That was grosley stupid, wrong and very sinfull. I have since bought a 75G tank, the Oscar, Female Convict, and a new Pleco are doing gret. I have also added the only survivor of my father's tank, a little 2 " catfish(not sure of the species).

What God expects from us concerning animals is responsability.

That seems odd given the first paragraph.

If we as humans did not domesticate some animals, think of all the chaos that would be caused from the needless hunting of the wild dogs, or Ferril cats.

In the US, we 'put to sleep' over 2 million dogs and cats a year.

What about horses running wild everywhere, that would cause a great danger to all of us driving on the roads.

?

So that may be diferent from fish, however, God does want us to be happy people, and for some of us, fish make us exceedingly happy. Others, like my son, do not care for fish,however, he is using my 29G tank for his Bearded Lizzard. God just expects us to be responsible and provide our pets with a good healthy life.

What about all the fish that die during collection, transport, wholesale, and LFS?

[birdfish]

"All the fish that die" due to the hobby still is not a drop in the bucket to the sealife from turtles to dolphins to sharks and whales killed as bycatch by the commercial fishing industry.

It is nothing compared to the extinction or nearly so, of many native species of fishes RIGHT HERE IN THE U.S., the draining of
the Colorado River so Desert megalopolises can look like jungles while the Sea of Cortez loses its greatest freshwater source.
THAT is the horror. Not the hobby.

Mountaintop mining in the Appalachains silting in countless hundreds of streams. Pacific NW clearcut logging making
some salmon species endangered and or extinct.

I could go on forever. Someone please stop me.

How is the hobby the horror? The environmental horrors are
occurring daily near you, and most of the U.S. population doesn't care.

Someone please stop the insanity

[Thales]

The hobby can be pretty horrible. Look at a bad collecting station or a bad LFS. That doesn't mean that there are other things out there that are worse, but we shouldn't use that as an excuse for the 'horror' the hobby contributes.

[cyclebrkr]

birdfish - You make the same point as many have on this thread, but we are still a part of the problem. We are a very small percentage, but still a percentage! That point will be made again and again. We can go back and forth and argue all day and it will accomplish nothing! The fact is clear, we need to do something to minimize the impact of our hobby. I am a part of it just as you are, and i try to minimize my impact as, hopefully, everyone else on these forums.

Your right on nobody caring. It seems that is the American, and/or World attitude towards just about everything.

[Sailor_jon]

Of course we impact the workds reefs...We impact everything we do because as human animals, thats what we do. We dont blend, we adapt the environment to us, not the other way around. Its not a moral judgement its how we were built. As far as reefs, lets look at three things:

One is the freshwatertropical fish industry, they produce as an aquacultural product, probably 90% of everything in a LFS. Good move, the discoverd long ago, you cant keep collecting, the source runs out and its cheaper to aquaculture and you have better 'control' over the product. Hillsborough County, Florida, where I am from, has a huge aquculture industry dedicated to nothing but tropical fish, for distribution and sale in LFS.

Two - yes or course the hobby has impact, look at Hawiian reefs, where they have been stripped of hippo tangs and other 'popular' fish due to movie star fish, not to mention Thailand, Indonesia and other locations where they have little moral reasons to preserve. They are not educated in sustainability and therefore strip mine entire areas for fish for us hobbyists. Dont be an Ostrich and pretend its not happening. We contribute by purchasing from these LFS who patronize such distributors, if you dont know where the fish came from..ASK!

Third...All that being said, just last Sunday, I watched a school of about 100 Jacks decimate a school of about 10,000 threadfin minnows in about 5 minutes, the segulls ate the rest. The diffference is, it was converted to Jacks which are eaten by..... etc etc...all sustainable resources! More fish than hobbyists would put in a tanks around the world in a year!

YES we have an impact, but we can reduce the impact by aquaculturing and trading between us, and learning and exploring and passing on the knowledge. The Pew Oceans Research Study is correct, the biggest impact we have on our Oceans is overpopulation. The great salad days of constant taking from nature are rapidly coming to an end, we see that with global warming and what happens when we crap in our own sandbox.

Lets all be resposible and contribute to our own sustainability not selfish taking. We were given the ability to do this.

[tigerarmy40]

there really isnt a stat on how small a percentage of damage the hobby really does to the natural reefs, Im guessing by the number of members here and on other forums its preety large wether we want to beleive it or not.... but I can tell you this from travel that I have done, the guys working the reefs in a lot of major collectors and distributors are getting a couple bucks an hour and hack through the reefs like their chopping weeds in an onion feild and they get paid based on how much and what is collected so do you think that they are careful or care about the life out there!?!? this stuff is offerdo n black market for illegal corals or in areas where collecting is banned....its a huge industry and can be looked at as a smaller scale tuna fishery.... are most serious hobbiest educated and careful about who they buy from? yes! but how many does that account for? just my 2 cents

[sandry75]

I think we need to look at the bright side too. With demand will come a greater desire to understand and control the product flow or supply chain. This has lead to increased understanding of all aspects of the reef in an effort to produce the "Product" without the reef itself. This will eventually lead to less need to acquire specimens from the wild as they can be produced cheaper in a controlled environment (lab).

I work in the drug development industry and we frequently take the same approach - if we research a "Natural" cure enough, we can then subsequently produce it ourselves with less impact and better quality/supply.

In the long run – we will gain a better understanding of how to save or minimize the impact on the natural environment.
:p

[tigerarmy40]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7429136#post7429136 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sandry75
This will eventually lead to less need to acquire specimens from the wild as they can be produced cheaper in a controlled environment (lab).


I dont meen to disagree but I would think low labor in the collection places with an abundance of natural sea water and no need for reactors or suppliments would be lower cost then overhead of a lab with electricity and the every day cost that we hobbiest pay for only on a much larger scale!!!! The cost is going to be much greater for aqua and mari culture but if the hobbiest see's the importance hopefuly he/she will be willing to pay the extra cost!!!

[cyclebrkr]

I, for one, would be willing to pay more for captive raised fish and corals. The problem is, that if you don't buy directly from the source, or have a way to prove it, you will never know if it is captive raised or not.

[MCary]

I know I should never visit this forum. The ignorance is just overwhelming. I use that word with its literal meaning not as an insult.

Balduron, it always astounds me how religious people all speak for God. I also find it interesting that my heathen self knows more about the religion than those that practice it. Lets hit some high points:

What God expects from us concerning animals is responsability.

Interesting considering the last time he talked to us directly we were sacrificing goats.

If we as humans did not domesticate some animals, think of all the chaos that would be caused from the needless hunting of the wild dogs, or Ferril cats. What about horses running wild everywhere, that would cause a great danger to all of us driving on the roads.

Dogs are domesticated wolves and cats are descended from the African Wild Cat. It isn't like there were a bunch of poodles and tabbies running around waiting to be brought into the cave. Horses would not be running wild everywhere, they would be limited to native ranges, they were smaller, and had natural predators. I know you were trying to make a point but wow! Sounded just a little silly.

God just expects us to be responsible and provide our pets with a good healthy life.

And where does it say that in the Bible? You made that up right?

I do my hobby without any guilt, but lets assume I was racked with it. Philosphically speaking, if the reefs are being affected by the ornamental hobby then each and every person in the hobby is responsible. Even if you strictly adhere to buying aquacultured products. It just the same as wearing fake fur. By wearing it you keep the fashion alive and animals continue to be killed for their skins. Which I also approve of BTW.

You may have a nice aquarium full of aquacultured coral. You show it to a friend who decides he has to have one, but does not share your sense of responsibility and stocks it with batfish and goniopora. You are responsible for that.

You go to the pet store to buy food for your fish. Some of the money the pet industry makes is used to promote the hobby. Once again, you are indirectly responsible.

Lets face it, you like the hobby and therefore you justify it with your environmental sensitivities. But your kidding yourself and you probably know it. If you are really concerned, get out of the hobby. That is the only way you can claim innocence.

Mike

[Balduron]

That seems odd given the first paragraph.

Why does that seem odd??? I completely blew it and admit to it. I was arrogant, I thought I knew everything, after all, "they are just fish, right??" What is odd about that?? everyone makes mistakes, of course I could blamne it on the LFS guy who sold me all the fish knowing full well I only had a 29G tank.

In the US, we 'put to sleep' over 2 million dogs and cats a year.

Again, there is a responsability issue. The reason the dogs and cats are put to sleep is due to lack of responsability. "After all, it is just a dog, right??" People with that attitude abandone their dogs and cats everyday.

What about horses running wild everywhere, that would cause a great danger to all of us driving on the roads.

?[/QUOTE

Some 200 years ago, there were wild horses all over the US and several other countries around the world. If they had not bee domesticated they would still be wild horse herds in those places. Makes sence that since we domesticated them, they are not in danger of being hit by cars. I know of an incident on a Federal reserve where Buffalo roam, and peolpe live in the same area. I did not see the accident, but I did help Buffalo that was hit by a Suburban. The Bufalo walked away, was later tracked and found serverely wounded and put down. The Suburban was totaled and all the people in it spend several days in the hospital. Wild herds of animals and people do not mix, that was my point there.


[QUOTE]What about all the fish that die during collection, transport, wholesale, and LFS?

Whos fault is this?? Is it the colectors?? or the transporters, how about the LFS people. You see, I think you missed my point here, Greed is driving the issue of the fish, dogs, cats, coral, any animal that is dieing because of comercial sales/breeding. It is all about more money. Are we responsible for the Colectors poor methods, or the shippers?? or the LFS's lack of adequately trained staff?? I have enought trouble policing myself, as you saw from the first paragraph of my post, how can I be responsible for anyone else???

Interesting considering the last time he talked to us directly we were sacrificing goats

That is an interesting point. You say you know more than the people that practice religion, why were they sacraficing Goats??

Dogs are domesticated wolves and cats are descended from the African Wild Cat. It isn't like there were a bunch of poodles and tabbies running around waiting to be brought into the cave. Horses would not be running wild everywhere, they would be limited to native ranges, they were smaller, and had natural predators. I know you were trying to make a point but wow! Sounded just a little silly.

I addressed this earlier, :Some 200 years ago, there were wild horses all over the US and several other countries around the world. If they ahd not bee domesticated they would still be wild horse herds in those places. Makes sence that since we domesticated them, they are not in danger of being hit by cars. I know of an incident on a Federal reserve where Buffalo roam, and peolpe live in the same area. I did not see the accident, but I did help skin, and process the Buffalo meet that was hit by a Suburban. the Bufalo walked away, was later tracked and found serverely wounded and put down. the Suburban was totaled and all the people in it spend several days in the hospital. Wild herds of animals and people do not mix, that was my point there.


God just expects us to be responsible and provide our pets with a good healthy life

And where does it say that in the Bible? You made that up right?

Actually, I did not make this up, the Bible is full of commands for "Good Stewardship", most people think that this term is referring to money, when in fact, it is referring to everything that God has provided for us, and everything that we take responsibility over. After all, the first command that God gave was to "subdue the Earth" That would in and of itself command stewardship and responsability over everything, living or not.

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7432430#post7432430 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Balduron
[B]Why does that seem odd??? I completely blew it and admit to it. I was arrogant, I thought I knew everything, after all, "they are just fish, right??" What is odd about that?? everyone makes mistakes, of course I could blamne it on the LFS guy who sold me all the fish knowing full well I only had a 29G tank.

It seems odd to me to say that its about responsibility after talking about how you killed a bunch of animals. If you accept that just about every new reefer will kill a bunch of animals, I am not sure how that jives with responsibility.

Again, there is a responsability issue. The reason the dogs and cats are put to sleep is due to lack of responsability. "After all, it is just a dog, right??" People with that attitude abandone their dogs and cats everyday.

You originally wrote: If we as humans did not domesticate some animals, think of all the chaos that would be caused from the needless hunting of the wild dogs, or Ferril cats.

The chaos with domesticated animals seems pretty huge, so I don't think domestication is the panacea you are making it out to be.

Whos fault is this?? Is it the colectors?? or the transporters, how about the LFS people. You see, I think you missed my point here, Greed is driving the issue of the fish, dogs, cats, coral, any animal that is dieing because of comercial sales/breeding. It is all about more money. Are we responsible for the Colectors poor methods, or the shippers?? or the LFS's lack of adequately trained staff?? I have enought trouble policing myself, as you saw from the first paragraph of my post, how can I be responsible for anyone else???

If you are in the hobby you are responsible, not to blame, for how the hobby is practiced. If you continue to purchase 'poorly collected or housed' animals, you are responsible. Saying that it is someone else's problem seems irresponsible to me.
Also, greed is what is putting fish and corals in our houses, and that greed is no different from the greed for money.

[Balduron]

It seems odd to me to say that its about responsibility after talking about how you killed a bunch of animals. If you accept that just about every new reefer will kill a bunch of animals, I am not sure how that jives with responsibility.

I am curious, have you lost any animals to neglect, poor judgement, bad choices, miss-information?? This is a starnge thing that Humans do, they keep animals as pets for many reasons, companionship, "protection" I like the newest one, "emotional support". However, not everyone enters any of these activities with the full knowledge that is required. Some will never learn. I chose that after I saw what a mess Ihad made, to learn from my miss-judgement and mistakes. It sounds to me that everyone who has killed an animal should not keep animals ever again.

The chaos with domesticated animals seems pretty huge, so I don't think domestication is the panacea you are making it out to be.

I guess I figure that it is the lesser of 2 evils, just imagine how bad Rabies would be. Have you ever seen a pack of Wild Dogs in real life?? I am not talking about a stray here or there, I am talking about a pack of 10 or 12 wild dogs, that heve lived out in the wilderness for several months, through a winter, maybe a couple of years. They are very organized, and worse yet, they are not affraid of Humans. I have had to hunt them, it is not fun. At first we had to use a catch pole, we were luckey one morning and had 2 captured in a fenced in area. The male, when i got him on the pole, chocked himself out. It t ook over 2 hours to catch him, he was exausted, he would not give up. My point was that without domestication, there would be worse problems. If more people learned responsability, even if it is the hard way, as I did, that would be better than not at all.

If you are in the hobby you are responsible, not to blame, for how the hobby is practiced. If you continue to purchase 'poorly collected or housed' animals, you are responsible. Saying that it is someone else's problem seems irresponsible to me.

I was pointing out the reason for the problems. I think that it is the responsability of every hobbyist to make the choices that are best for the animals that they purchase. Like many other things in thie world, we all want things today, right now, this instant. That is another thing that drives the greed. However, if we just slow everything down a notch or 2 and let things take the course that they should, for instance, back to my disaster; if I had done the research first, Hmmm, not sure how my tanks would have came out.

Or maybe we should just take all our tanks, dump them in the rivers and oceans( depending on the type) and end the hobby. That would surely stop the misshandling of fish. Better yet:

All this *****ing about whether the use of electricity for our reef tanks is impacting the reefs via your electrically operated computer is impacting the reefs! Quick, turnoff your computers. Wait, better yet, move to a tropical island with your corals and use the natural sunlight and saltwater, (circulated by hamsters turning an archimedes screw). But wait, just living on that island negatively impacts the reef. Doh! I think the only answer is for all us environementally concious consumers to kill ourselves, sacrificed to the reefs we love, and let the 'clean up crews' have at. However, we have to go one at a time, or else there will just be a huge algae bloom that will negatively impact the reef.

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7433505#post7433505 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Balduron
[B]I am curious, have you lost any animals to neglect, poor judgement, bad choices, miss-information?? This is a starnge thing that Humans do, they keep animals as pets for many reasons, companionship, "protection" I like the newest one, "emotional support". However, not everyone enters any of these activities with the full knowledge that is required. Some will never learn. I chose that after I saw what a mess Ihad made, to learn from my miss-judgement and mistakes. It sounds to me that everyone who has killed an animal should not keep animals ever again.

It seems to me if I thought that God wanted me to act responsibly in regards to animals, I wouldn't keep animals in a glass cage for my own pleasure.

I guess I figure that it is the lesser of 2 evils, just imagine how bad Rabies would be. Have you ever seen a pack of Wild Dogs in real life?? I am not talking about a stray here or there, I am talking about a pack of 10 or 12 wild dogs, that heve lived out in the wilderness for several months, through a winter, maybe a couple of years. They are very organized, and worse yet, they are not affraid of Humans. I have had to hunt them, it is not fun. At first we had to use a catch pole, we were luckey one morning and had 2 captured in a fenced in area. The male, when i got him on the pole, chocked himself out. It t ook over 2 hours to catch him, he was exausted, he would not give up. My point was that without domestication, there would be worse problems. If more people learned responsability, even if it is the hard way, as I did, that would be better than not at all.

Those aren't wild dogs, those are domesticated animals that were let loose and I don't think you can compare them to real wild dogs.

I was pointing out the reason for the problems. I think that it is the responsability of every hobbyist to make the choices that are best for the animals that they purchase. Like many other things in thie world, we all want things today, right now, this instant. That is another thing that drives the greed. However, if we just slow everything down a notch or 2 and let things take the course that they should, for instance, back to my disaster; if I had done the research first, Hmmm, not sure how my tanks would have came out.

I think that is ignoring the custody chain.

Or maybe we should just take all our tanks, dump them in the rivers and oceans( depending on the type) and end the hobby. That would surely stop the misshandling of fish. Better yet:

If I believed God wanted me to act responsibly you betcha.

[Balduron]

So let's just cut to the chase:

It seems to me if I thought that God wanted me to act responsibly in regards to animals, I wouldn't keep animals in a glass cage for my own pleasure.

Do you keep animals in a glass cage for your own pleasure??

And...


If I believed God wanted me to act responsibly you betcha.

With the "IF" there, the question would obviously be:

Do you beleive God wants you to act responsibly??



Those aren't wild dogs, those are domesticated animals that were let loose and I don't think you can compare them to real wild dogs.

Again, I was using this as an example to make a point. Maybe it was a bad choice of example of maybe it was just a bad point.

[tigerarmy40]

how did this thread turn into a religious topic? this isnt about religion but rather the damage the hobby may be doing to the natural reefs all over the world!!! just a reminder that we may be waaaaayyyyy off topic!

[MCary]

Some 200 years ago, there were wild horses all over the US and several other countries around the world. If they had not bee domesticated they would still be wild horse herds in those places.

The wild horses running all over the US were the result of escaped domesticated horses. They were only re-domesticted by the indians. The majority of the rest that were not allowed to free roam were shot. Had they not been domesticated in the first place they would not have been here. They were brought over by the Spanish. I still don't get your point. Your trying to say that domesticating animals solved alot of problems and then site as examples problems caused by domestication.

That is an interesting point. You say you know more than the people that practice religion, why were they sacraficing Goats??

Before Jesus the followers of the God of Abraham sacrificed animals. So I don't know, why were they sacrificing goats?

After all, the first command that God gave was to "subdue the Earth" That would in and of itself command stewardship and responsability over everything, living or not.

Not even. It means conquer and use however you see fit. It places dominion over the animals. Do whatever you want to them free of responsibility.

Mike

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7435520#post7435520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tigerarmy40
how did this thread turn into a religious topic? this isnt about religion but rather the damage the hobby may be doing to the natural reefs all over the world!!! just a reminder that we may be waaaaayyyyy off topic!

I think religion is connected to the topic at hand when people use religion to explain what the hobby may be doing to natural reefs.

[tigerarmy40]

well its time to unsubscribe!! cause this is pretty much rediculous and has nothing to do with reefin anymore but instead a bunch of talk about god and horses and dogs and cats!!! c'mon people are you reading what your writing?

[MCary]

Its pretty simple. The topic started on a philosophical note. The title of the thread itself used the word horror. The question was one of reefers reponsibilities but actually more one of reefers morality and what they can do to feel better about themselves, because lets face it, nothing any of us do will make 2 cents difference and reefers are not going to organize so its a hypothetical or philosophical issue.

If your going to drill in that well you have to accept the foundations for anyone moralities. As misguided as Balduron is he certainly has a right to present his perspective and the origin of his feelings.

Your last post was alot more unnecessary. You could have unsubscribed without the comment.

Mike

[tigerarmy40]

I dont beleive in reading the first post that is started from a philisophical point at all! you guys decided it was a rediculous idea and took it the direction you wanted to!!!! and theres a diference in talking about ones a perspective and turning an entire thread into a religous discussion!



"If your going to drill in that well you have to accept the foundations for anyone moralities. As misguided as Balduron is he certainly has a right to present his perspective and the origin of his feelings."


"Your last post was alot more unnecessary. You could have unsubscribed without the comment."

wouldnt this be a direct contradiction of your statement just before it?

I also have the right to state my perspective and the origin of my feelings.....and I feel that you guys hijacked this thread on about page three!!! LOL,

[Balduron]

Thank you MCary.

[cyclebrkr]

Not to be rude, but i really don't see the point in bringing religion into this. As was stated above, this is a moral issue. The destruction of the reefs is something ALL hobbiests in this trade should worry about, ....heck, everyone on this earth should worry about it! You have a right to voice your beliefs and/or opinions, but the destruction of the reefs, global warming, etc...all the harmful effects us as humans are inflicting on this earth are REAL! Your god has not been proven or not proven to exist, so i don't think that kind of message belongs as a part of this thread.

[truecrow]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7435956#post7435956 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tigerarmy40
I dont beleive in reading the first post that is started from a philisophical point at all! you guys decided it was a rediculous idea and took it the direction you wanted to!!!! and theres a diference in talking about ones a perspective and turning an entire thread into a religous discussion!



"If your going to drill in that well you have to accept the foundations for anyone moralities. As misguided as Balduron is he certainly has a right to present his perspective and the origin of his feelings."


"Your last post was alot more unnecessary. You could have unsubscribed without the comment."

wouldnt this be a direct contradiction of your statement just before it?

I also have the right to state my perspective and the origin of my feelings.....and I feel that you guys hijacked this thread on about page three!!! LOL,

I thought you unsubscribed.

[Balduron]

Well, Cyclebrkr, as you stated,

You have a right to voice your beliefs and/or opinions

As does everyone. and if you read my original post, I did just that:

When I think about the reefs, and the disrespect that is shown to them, I remember one thing, Who created them. That being said, I also remember that I am not big enough to make a huge positive impact, but the Creator is, and If I listen to God's directions as to what I am to do(After all, he did command mankind to "subdue" the earth) I know that He did not mean to DESTROY it, but to "use it" in a fitting manner.

And I also added what I felt was a viable solution to the problem, all be it too late:

"use it" in a fitting manner

I did not bring up weather "my" God existed or not, I just made that statement, furthermore, any "religious" converdsation was brought on buy other people questioning my statement. I only abbliged them by answering them.

If you like, start another thread in a more appropriate place and by all means provide a link here and I will be more than happy to discuss if "my" God exists or not. I did not bring that issue up either.

[MCary]

all the harmful effects us as humans are inflicting on this earth are REAL!

Whenever I read this self loathing crap it makes me laugh. Especially when it comes from California. Really hate being human huh? The problem is, it lacks free thinking and perspective. I live in Montana and listen to outsiders tell me how it is here all the time without ever being here. I hear about drilling in ANWAR and look at the pictures of the mirror lakes and mountains, although having been there I know that those mountains and lakes are 1000 miles away. The first animal placed on the endangered species list was the Alligator, even though there were over 1.5 million of them at the time. They were put there because of misleading articles and stories. Any Cajun could have told you they were full of crap. I've never seen all this distruction of the reefs. I would love to get the perspective the man who makes his living there. Instead of an article from Time magazine on Earth day.

And directly responding to your post. Harm as you use the term is relative. Damming up the Colorado caused harm to the animals in the watershed, but did tremendous good for us. California provides a HUGE amount of the fresh produce consumed by Americans. Thanks to irrigation from the dams. The dam provides a HUGE amount of clean electrical power. Flood control has saved HUGE amount of people and property. And it provided a habitat that many animals are adapting to or moved into. Destroying the dam in 100 years would destroy an entire ecosystem that had developed.

Don't beat yourself up so much for being human. Humans are animals too and like everyother animal will fight to survive and adjust the environment to fit its needs within the realm of its capabilities. Other animals have destroyed the ecosystem for competing animals. The only difference is humans care and try to do something about it when they can.

I know how important it is for most to belong to a group. And the easiest way to do that is to join the fringe and pound their drums. Personally I prefer to be a loner and think for myself.

Mike

[vitz]

maybe there should first be a consensus as to what defines 'moral' ? ;)

the issue is not that this hobby even comes close to being a factor in reef survival- it doesn't-

the issue is- should we hold ourselves to a 'higher standard' of behavior, as regards respect for the natural environment we depend on?


we can't very well complain about overfishing, and the food industry's use of cyanide, if we contribute to those issues ourselves, regardless of whether or not it makes a practical difference :)

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7438499#post7438499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vitz


we can't very well complain about overfishing, and the food industry's use of cyanide, if we contribute to those issues ourselves, I think you are sadly misinformed on this subject...

[Balduron]

Hmm, I missed this question:

Before Jesus the followers of the God of Abraham sacrificed animals. So I don't know, why were they sacrificing goats?

Well, even in Jesus's time the Jewish people still sacrificed animals, Goats had some interesting reasons for being sacrificed. In Leviticus 16:1-34 it talks about a bull and 2 goats, The bullis for Aaron's(The high priest appointed by God as Moses's aid) sin offering. The 2 goats are to have lots cast for them, one is to be slaughtered for the sin offering for the people. The live goat becomes the "scapegoat"(ever wonder where that term came from?? it is right our of the Bible) And although the sins of the Jewish people were "attoned" for when they slaughtered one goat, they had to be carried away, so Aaron would place his hands on the live goat and confess all the sins of the Israelites and place them on the goats head. Then the goat is taken into the desert in the care of a man, and he shall take it into t solitary place and release it.



Not even. It means conquer and use however you see fit. It places dominion over the animals. Do whatever you want to them free of responsibility.

YOu could take it t hat way, for it does say"...Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea abd the birds of the air and over every creature that moves on the ground."

However, I think that if you take the character of God into account, that is not true. Would you want your children to missuse the things that you have given them?? how aobut the people that they associate with, would that be ok??

YOu see,


maybe there should first be a consensus as to what defines 'moral' ?

I totally agree with Vitz on this, and that is what I have done, I decided to select a standard as to what "moral" is. A standard is somethng that is used to measure somethng, like a ruler or a measuring cup. If we all used differnet rulers on a construction job, for instance, nothing would fit corectley. I have chosen God's standard in the Bible to describe how we should treat the reef, and even our pets. Although i did not understand the responsability reguarding the keeping of fish when I entered the hobby, I quickley learned of my mistake. We can make any standrd of morality, however, if we each chose our own "standard" how is it a viable standard, we all think that it should be differnet. Therefore I maintain:

I remember one thing, Who created them. That being said, I also remember that I am not big enough to make a huge positive impact, but the Creator is, and If I listen to God's directions as to what I am to do(After all, he did command mankind to "subdue" the earth) I know that He did not mean to DESTROY it, but to "use it" in a fitting manner.

And remember:

As misguided as Balduron is he certainly has a right to present his perspective and the origin of his feelings.

However, I did not bring these issues up.:D

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7437112#post7437112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Balduron
I did not bring up weather "my" God existed or not, I just made that statement, furthermore, any "religious" converdsation was brought on buy other people questioning my statement. I only abbliged them by answering them.
Folks, we don't discuss religion on this board.

That goes for everyone - it doesn't matter whether you start the conversation or just continue it, this board is not the place for that.

You're more than welcome to do it somewhere else, though :)

[vitz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7441212#post7441212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
I think you are sadly misinformed on this subject...



you sir, are very ignorant of my levels of experience in this hobby, industry, and conservation related org.'s (read: ngo).

but i forgive you anyway ;)


my level of informational knowledge on the state of the hobby's collection and transport practices, and the reefs' status world over in general and overall is accurate and up to date,and has been for over 25 years- i assure you

[loveclowns]

My LFS dealer cares very much about the natural reef system. When I started this hobby, he told me that he wasn't going to sell me anything that he thought I couldn't keep alive. And he's done that. I've wanted some fish/corals that wouldn't survive longer than a few days in my tank, and he wouldn't sell them.

His display tanks are awesome. His store has a giant reef aquarium with all sorts of fish/other livestock that he pays a lot of attention to. As far as his stock, he pays as much attention to those tanks as his reef. I am very comfortable with how he manages his store.

[Manderin]

in grade 10 i did a report on the vitality of reefs to our worlds ecosystem, its scary to think what would happen to us withuiot them, they filter out harmful bacteria, are barriers from waves etc. its amazing really

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7442383#post7442383 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vitz
you sir, are very ignorant of my levels of experience in this hobby, industry, and conservation related org.'s (read: ngo).

but i forgive you anyway ;)


my level of informational knowledge on the state of the hobby's collection and transport practices, and the reefs' status world over in general and overall is accurate and up to date,and has been for over 25 years- i assure you

we can't very well complain about overfishing, and the food industry's use of cyanideYou stated the food industry's use of cyanide, where do they use cyanide in fishing? that is right out of left field...

[vitz]

lol-cyanide is a MAJOR substance used in food fishing, and has been for decades- you really need to start doing some research-you may want to read some of the industry forum threads on RDO for some beginning background material-groupers are a known cyanide target species for the food fish industry

[Randall_James]

I hate to break it to you but this is not Indonesia or some third world country. In the US, the volume of fish that is processed and the scrutiny that it is processed under excludes the use of cyanide.

EDIT: do not forget about bleach (also used )

[vitz]

there is no reliable cyanide test available-how can you back that statement up ?

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7529077#post7529077 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
I hate to break it to you but this is not Indonesia or some third world country. In the US, the volume of fish that is processed and the scrutiny that it is processed under excludes the use of cyanide.

EDIT: do not forget about bleach (also used )

Food fish in the US doesn't all come from the US - and there really is no reliable cyanide test.
In FL, I believe one can get a permit for cyanide fishing.

[wds21921]

I like Jobiwan have been in the hobby for many years and I've seen a lot of improvements.
We can't get away from any of us having at least some effect on the enviromental part since we're taking away from it. However small it may be the entertainment part is what it's about.
The benefits are we know or at least understand a little more about it now though. As hobbysists we've evolved somewhat.
Also, many are propogating live corals and breeding many of the captured species of fish. Potentially there could be some very positive effects if we keep going in the overall direction the hobby is headed.

I'm not painting a 'rosy' picture here but while there has been some or a lot of damage due to the hobby (depending on how you look at it), most are willing to act more responsibly when we have the ability (means and knowledge) to maintain things in a more enviromentally friendly way. I think there are even programs or organizations working to put back at least a part of what's been taken. And how much has been lost to enviromental catastrophes or accidents? By making people more aware of it aren't we helping in a sense?

By having these discussions and bring things to light, I think we are at least attempting to act in a responsible way.

No it's not a perfect world and we don't have perfect people in it. If someone wants to rip my posting apart paragraph by paragraph then have at it. I believe however that everyone here would rather at least try to do something constructive and hold a little belief we can all make a more positive change, however large or small it may be.

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7582098#post7582098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wds21921


I'm not painting a 'rosy' picture here but while there has been some or a lot of damage due to the hobby (depending on how you look at it), most are willing to act more responsibly when we have the ability (means and knowledge) to maintain things in a more enviromentally friendly way. I think there are even programs or organizations working to put back at least a part of what's been taken. And how much has been lost to enviromental catastrophes or accidents? By making people more aware of it aren't we helping in a sense?

Good post.

I don't agree that most are willing to act more responsibility when they have the means and knowledge to maintain things in a more environmentally way. I actually think very few are willing to put their money where their mouths are. Cheaper usually wins the day. People say the are willing to pay more for net caught fish, but when it comes down to it, they buy the cheaper fish. People know that certain LFS are abattoirs, but they shop there to save a 3 bucks on salt mix. There is a lot of talk about programs and organizations 'putting back' but I have yet to see any of them actually putting back. I also think people can be made aware of environmental catastrophes or accidents without having to collect fish and coral for peoples tanks. From my perspective, there is a lot of good talk, but very little walk.

By having these discussions and bring things to light, I think we are at least attempting to act in a responsible way.

I agree. What often distresses me in these discussions is when people take it personally and snipe at each other.

No it's not a perfect world and we don't have perfect people in it.

You betcha.

If someone wants to rip my posting apart paragraph by paragraph then have at it.

That makes me a little sad. If we are going to discuss this in any meaningful way, I don't see how we cant go point by point. If we don't, misconceptions get glossed over and continued. As long as it isn't attacky and personal, I don't see the harm in examining individual points.

I believe however that everyone here would rather at least try to do something constructive and hold a little belief we can all make a more positive change, however large or small it may be.

Perhaps everyone in this thread, but I don't think that holds for everyone on RC. I also don't know if the belief means much without action behind it.

Good discussion.

[wds21921]

Thanks lefty, you made valid points here.

[G-money]

I couldn't agree more with Lefty here.

With the vast majority of Americans, "cheaper" wins over "better" almost every time. Look at how a place like Wal-Mart can put entire towns out of business. Is Wal-Mart "better" in any sense of the word? Not IMO. But I've never shopped there (and I never will.)

To take that even further, look at how probably 95% of your manufactured goods come from China. Why would we suppose that is? It's ironic that Americans want such low cost goods at the expense of jobs. You ain't buying anything if you aren't working...Whenever I'm presented with something made in America vs. foreign, 9 times out of 10 I'll pay the extra 10-20% and buy American.

The problem with this hobby is that there is alot of transience in it. Advanced life-long reefers are not the majority by any means. It becomes like any other disposable good. "Oh, my fishy died". Face it, the average person doesn't have the empathy for a fish that they would for a dog or cat....or even a bird or reptile. I have to admit, I do everything in my power to keep my fish as healthy and long-lived as possible, but I don't get teary-eyed when they die like I probably would with a dog. Who knows though....a few of my fish are passing the 6 year-old mark so the tears may yet arise... ;)

[wds21921]

I agree G-Money. I won't get on the bandwagon of hating Wal Mart here but that's the price people are willing to pay I'm afraid.
In the hobby I've seen exactly what your talking about in foreign goods as well and many of the promises they've made. That also goes for some of the far-fetched claims of a certain manufacturer I will not name here.

There are more than enough facts to back up yoru statement about Wal Mart too. In my area alone I've seen at least 5 long time businesses close because of them. There initial claim of Wal Mart adding jobs was correct, that was until Wal Mart figures out exactly HOW MANY people they REALLY need to operate the store. It comes down to capitalism becoming canabalistic.
Sorry got way off point here but wanted to put in my 2 cents.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7529693#post7529693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lefty
Food fish in the US doesn't all come from the US - and there really is no reliable cyanide test.
In FL, I believe one can get a permit for cyanide fishing.

Quinaldine, not cyanide. Still not all that kosher in my book as the delivery agent's are bad on their own. The permits are for MO only, not foodfish, although, that is not to say some yahoo isn't doing it :D

We in the US do get shipped some of these reef fish that were caught with cyanide. The food fish use is far larger reaching then MO use, by leaps and bounds. It takes a lot of juice to take down a 5' grouper (if one can be found anymore).

FWIW, my knowledge on this isn't from NGO papers, or articles, but rather from people that lived there and worked very closely with the villagers.

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7441212#post7441212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
I think you are sadly misinformed on this subject...

I beg to differ. Vitz has an extreme grasp of the subject. He knows far more then most on this subject :D

[vitz]

heh thx gresh-if he only knew...... ;)

[sassyfish]

So, why don't we give back to the reef? Is it more harmful than helpful to add your own frags back to the reefs? Just a thought I have been pondering each time I dive. Or are the frags too domesticated and able to cause more harm?

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7677802#post7677802 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sassyfish
So, why don't we give back to the reef? Is it more harmful than helpful to add your own frags back to the reefs? Just a thought I have been pondering each time I dive. Or are the frags too domesticated and able to cause more harm?

Its very difficult and expensive and time consumsing. Plus, you would have to be sure sure sure that the coral is actually endemic and placed correctly or enviornmental groups would string you up. I think it will happen, there just isn´t a great way to get it done yet. :D

[reiple]

Most of the (beautiful!) corals you keep are from the tropical regions and the caribbean.

[onereefnotenuf]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7677802#post7677802 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sassyfish
So, why don't we give back to the reef? Is it more harmful than helpful to add your own frags back to the reefs? Just a thought I have been pondering each time I dive. Or are the frags too domesticated and able to cause more harm?

there would be a problem with non endemic "hitch hikers" that could cause a big problem when introduced into an area of ocean different from where they come from. crabs,shrimp,microscopic life . too many to name. for example if a bacteria from the indian ocean is introduced to the atlantic where there is no built up immunity it could cause a huge die-off.

[KC143]

First having worked for years in the industry anyone saying that even the very best and most responsible LFS's and hobbyist in general dont contribute to the many problems facing the worlds reefs is either dumb or plainly sticking there head in the sand.

I love the creatures in my reef tank and would like to see all who feel the same be able to continue in the hobby however every single specimen we all own once came from the ocean or a piece that came from the ocean.

All of these organisms that we see in the stores are but a extremly small percentage of what was ripped from the reef in the first place. Judging what kind of effect we are having on the worlds reef's by some half @ssed discussion about responsible LFS owners is missing the point.

So you like that red sea tang you just bought, think he looks killer in your stupid 55 gallon tank well think of the other 200 that were caught and then died in transit just so you could have your pretty fish.

I myself am responsible for my part of the problem so i dont want to only gripe about how little people regard for the things they keep in their tanks but This hobby is a very shameful waste of beautiful creatures that in truth should remain on the reef.

You may ask, Do i think mariculture of these organisms help the reefs in any way ? Of Course not. 90 percent of the people in the industry claiming the benifits of mariculture are using bait and switch tactics. Like the Current trend of bali maricultured corals which so many people consider a just purchase because the are only fraging corals and then growing them out.

These reefs are being stripped like every other collection site the fragging part only boosts the profit for companies like golden ina by turning one colony of acropora into 20 in which they can sell.
There are no reason for them to leave a part of the coral because they would rather make every last cent from the hobby.

the LFS is the last link in the chain when it comes to the trip of death for all aquarium livestock. The Wholesaler is in fact where most animals come to die. I really wish you guys could see the mountains of bleached and deaqd coral outside these facilities and smell the buckets apon buckets of dead fish that they produce daily.

The single best thing the hobby could do in order to protect the reefs is refuse to pruchase live rock. Before going any further on this topic i will say that live rock gives your tank an immense head start and without it a tank would literally take several years before it looked good. Although the rock is nice and makes y6ou tank full of all kinds of cryptic fauna it is the last step for a stripped reef and your tank can grow with substitutes.

We all know of the different kind of live rock out there they sell it with really exotic names and after a while we usually dont see as much of it after it has made its run. These rocks were the homes of the corals and inverts and fish you all have in your tanks.
Once the easy to collect or marketable specimens were collected the walt smith guys went out with there dynamite and completly removed the foundation for that reef. While fish migrate in most cases the reef itself at this point is removed and no organisms will colonize the area for years and years.

Ora breeds some fish and for that we have one supplier who is at least outwaying the damage that they cause but to excuse all of the rape of the reefs because you may frag a few corals and trade em doesnt in one real way affect the next pristine reef that after a month or so wil no longer exist.

Feel good for the little bit that you do do to teach people about reefs and all but do not think its a good thing becuase the person you educate most likely will go out and buy there own tank and in turn remove more organisms and live rock from the ocean. Can you really think this is a good thing ?\

Every time you go in to your lfs count all the corals and fish and really consider how many died from the collection station to the hot tarmac at the airport to the filthy conditions at the wholesaler and finally to your own tank where you have seen specimens die for one reason or another.

If you really want your children to be able to see reefs for what they really are majestic ecosystems that are the filter and staging point for all life in the oceans then think about all the creatures that died to let you have an acro to frag and trade in the first place.

[cthetoy]

I dont think hobbyists are contributing the havoc across the coral reefs around the world. I think fish for human consumption are 100x worse. Look at all the fish we eat and all the fish the commercial fisherman catches. I see alot more fish at the market compared to the local pet shop. And this is just in the US. Compared to asian counties like Phillipines, Japan, Indonesia, etc and fish consumption is quadruple of what we consume. They use dynmamite to blast and stun fish to sell at the market for food. That blast not only kills the fish but also the reefs where the fish were hiding.

Coral reefs around the world are disapearing by the acres not by collectors but by global warming of the seas and pollution. Sure collectors are creating some damage but not as much as the other two.

Most people on Reefcentral are responsible hobbyists. If every customer who walks in LFS are reefcentral members then you would perhaps see a 90% drop on mortality rates. Most of the fish/coral that die from the LFS will be from irresponsible hobbyists

[pactrop]

I might just be asking for hate reply but I am a collector in Hawaii and I also wholesale to strictly pet stores. Specializing in LFS, I do not sell to what I call the wal-marts of the fish trade. My mortality rate is probably not that far off from what dies on the reef from natural causes and survival of the fittest.

I think there are a lot of problems in the trade and most of them are attributed to third world people trying to make more than $1 a day, big wholesalers, and non-LFS pushing fish to make a profit.

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7731086#post7731086 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cthetoy
I dont think hobbyists are contributing the havoc across the coral reefs around the world. I think fish for human consumption are 100x worse. Look at all the fish we eat and all the fish the commercial fisherman catches. I see alot more fish at the market compared to the local pet shop. And this is just in the US. Compared to asian counties like Phillipines, Japan, Indonesia, etc and fish consumption is quadruple of what we consume. They use dynmamite to blast and stun fish to sell at the market for food. That blast not only kills the fish but also the reefs where the fish were hiding.

Sure they may be worse, but that doesn't mean that hobby contributions are nil.

Most people on Reefcentral are responsible hobbyists. If every customer who walks in LFS are reefcentral members then you would perhaps see a 90% drop on mortality rates. Most of the fish/coral that die from the LFS will be from irresponsible hobbyists

I don't think this is true as much mortality comes from the import side rather than the domestic.

[wds21921]

In a point of reference a poster commented on raping the sea.

It's easy to point fingers and say "this is all your fault." The truth is though that at least a part of what is happening to the seas right now is a result of pollution/overfishing. I would venture to say that is the largest source of damage as well.

If we quantified every animal captured from the sea and then followed each to there destination point we "might" see a high mortality rate. Not nearly as high as it was 20 years ago but perhaps still a high mortality rate and even that term "high' is suspect.

Now take those numbers and compare them to the amount of fish that are caught for human consumption. The overall numbers I guarantee will reflect that those captured for home tank placement are very miniscule compared to the ones bound for someones dinner table.
The other factor, pollution. To be able to quantify that we would have to do an exhaustive case study performed over several years from several different areas. Along with the specific species effected would be those also that are connected to them in the food chain. Again I am VERY sure that these numbers once again will pale in comparison to those captured for home tanks, large aquariums (public), and those used for research.

Being involved in an industry does not qualify anyone as an expert either. I'm not blasting anyone for this but I am simply pointing out that the implication that these "are" the answers or "the results" without any sort of verifiable data to back up such claims is moot.

Are we as hobbysists somewhat responsible? Sure, I haven't seen anyone on here denying that. BUT, I've also seen many of the wild caught species (specifically corals) being home propogated such as zooanthids, mushrooms, acropora, montipora, etc. To say this area of reproduction in inverts is not helping to alleviate what's being removed is to me an argument without any sense of merit.
As we learn more, we can also begin to reproduce more animals (both fish and inverts) over time.

I think there are a lot of assumptions being given as fact that cannot be proven either way.

[Thales]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7731984#post7731984 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wds21921


Are we as hobbysists somewhat responsible? Sure, I haven't seen anyone on here denying that. BUT, I've also seen many of the wild caught species (specifically corals) being home propogated such as zooanthids, mushrooms, acropora, montipora, etc. To say this area of reproduction in inverts is not helping to alleviate what's being removed is to me an argument without any sense of merit.

I'm not blasting anyone for this but I am simply pointing out that the implication that these "are" the answers or "the results" without any sort of verifiable data to back up such claims is moot.

:D

[cthetoy]

If I wanted to save the coral reefs around the world then ill put all my time and effort in targeting the major culprits and not the hobbyists. If they outlawed reefkeeping tommorow and 5 years later our coral reefs may improve somewhat. Now outlaw commercial fishing and sea pollution and in 5 years you will see signifgant improvements.


I don't think this is true as much mortality comes from the import side rather than the domestic

I'm not sure the exact mortality rates from the import side but I heard it was less than 20% mortality in 3rd world parts and less than 10% in the US like Hawaii. Im sure Pactrop can chime you on the exact mortality rates since he collects.

On the otherhand I feel that 90% of all fish sold at the LFS will die from the hobbyist because of disease, imcompatibility, poor water parameters, owner neglect, proper nutrition, etc. I fell into that category before I came aboard on Reefcentral.

[pactrop]

Yes you are correct. the mortality rate is really low. I would put mine at about 2 to 5%. Keep in mind I am what I consider a boutique collector/wholesaler. The larger operations will lose closer to around 5-10%.

I am also pretty sure you are correct on the end of the line consumer is for the most part the end of the life for a fish. I try to market to the RC type people and stores that are more "in tune" with what should and needs to be done for a healthy environment.

fish for food is a whole different forum.

[KC143]

Yes some corals reproduce in our tanks but the handfull of corals that come from people who grow coral succesfully are less than 1% of the coral that is being sold in this country and around the world. Not to say that this is not a good thing but to say this offsets wild collection at all or in any way is foolish and a complete farce.

Most everyone who keeps a tank genuinly cares for these creatures they keep but again this does not make the practice a good thing for the reefs of the world.

To compare fish that are harvested as food versus fish for the aquarium industry is for one comparing apples and oranges and in turn trying to deviate from the forum question. I dont remember any recipes that call for Red Sea purple tang or fried clownfish. Any large scale harvesting of any natural resource has major complications and in both harvesting of reef organisms and fishery's for the consumption of human beings there are major wrongs being committed.

It would be completly foolish to think that these fish and corals would not be better off in the ocean and think that this hobby has no impact on the health of reefs in the wild just as the scuba industry impacts the health of the reefs.

I hear people all the time try to make light of this problem the hobby faces by saying things like i frag my zoanthids or the hobby negates its impact because it teaches others about reefs.
The fact is that just like a Lion belongs in the wild so does a shark or any other creature that is a vital part of the ecosystem.

Think of the next generations of coral and fish life that will not happen becuase the specimens are not there to reproduce and play there vital role in that said eccosystem. Please enjoy what you do in this hobby but do not make light of what is taking place.

The amount of life coming out of the ocean is far far too much and it is being taken from the sea at a time where reefs all over the globe are suffering. 85% of hte worlds reefs are in dire need and not much can be done to help them other than to leave them be to heal and taking every last specimen and moving from reef to reef is doing exactly the opposite. Global warming and the population of coastal cities around the equator are the two most damaging things happening to the reefs currently and when you tie in the aquarium hobby you truly begin to relize how damaging collection of the organisms can be.

In a more perfect world we would be able to collect a percentage of the ornamental organisms from the wild and it would not be such a drastic blow to the diversity of the reefs but as is there is way too much happpening to them to continue to collect as we do now.

Riddle me this ? Why would we treat the reefs in the caribbean and off the hawaiin islands any differently than we would those from international or foreign waters? Should we not pass the same collection restrictions on corals and marine life from fiji like we do from the florida keys?

A LOT OF PEOPLE speak like this industry thinks of the animals first when it is not the case. Yes alot of LFS owners try to do just that but they can only affect the animals under there care they have nothing they can do for the 50 powder blue tangs that died just meters away from the waters edge where they were collected.

My aim in this post is not to declare any of you guys as fish rapists but the industry is whether or not we get to know just how bad it is. We have all lost specimens in our tanks and we truly know how fragile the life we attempt to care for is, All i ask is when you look at one healthy specimen in a store think of all its buddies that died along the way.

The biggest fact in all of this is to truly understand while husbandry techniques have improved we are still dealing with organisms that evolved to do their part to maintain THE MOST IMPROTANT ecosystem on earth. Without functioning reefs we will not have a functioning ocean and in turn We will be the species that is in trouble.

[KC143]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7733770#post7733770 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pactrop
Yes you are correct. the mortality rate is really low. I would put mine at about 2 to 5%. Keep in mind I am what I consider a boutique collector/wholesaler. The larger operations will lose closer to around 5-10%.

I am also pretty sure you are correct on the end of the line consumer is for the most part the end of the life for a fish. I try to market to the RC type people and stores that are more "in tune" with what should and needs to be done for a healthy environment.

fish for food is a whole different forum.

I will say for one that collection in the hawaiin islands is a standard which should be met across the globe. If we had those standards in other parts of the world this topic would be mute.

[onereefnotenuf]

where did you get the information that it takes 200 red sea tangs(i will assume you mean sailfins) to get one healthy one in my tank? i understand the spirit of you're post but i don't think exaggerating death rates to make a point does anybody any good.

[pactrop]

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse but we are consumers.

Ornamentals are also food. the Kole tang means raw in Hawaiian, why? because that is how people liked it prepared. the Naso literatus, Acanthurus triostegus, dussumier, blochii, Bodianus bilunulatus, Myripristis berndti, Lutjanus kasmira, Cephalopholis argus are all on my inventory list regularly and all also found on dinner tables regularly.

I have even seen some butterfly fish laying on ice next to tuna in the fish markets in Tahiti.

Yes other places need to regulate more. How do you suggest controlling how another country harvests?

[Eric Boerner]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7529077#post7529077 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
[B]I hate to break it to you but this is not Indonesia or some third world country. In the US, the volume of fish that is processed and the scrutiny that it is processed under excludes the use of cyanide.

Yes, we aren't in Indonisia, but ALL of the wild species that our hobby could possibly effect come from either indonesia, phillipines, or haiti, all of which use cyanide or blasting to collect their food stocks.

The 2 dozen tangs hand caught, randomly monitored by a CITES inspector, processed through a CITES facility, and inspected again in the US port is far less than the 1000's of net caught, cyanide subdued, or blast fished out of the ocean.

The perception that the ornamental trade was the primary source of take from the reefs has created a huge and locally lucrative buracracy to ensure that collection is done humanely. Meanwhile, reef fishers continue to employ whatever measures they wish to catch food stocks (the same fish thats being sent to us).

The hobby nor your local fish store is the primary reason reefs are on the decline, at least not directly. Global warming and deforestation is what will destroy our current reef structures. So in a sense, we and the LFS are in someway responsible. All the electricity we consume to sustain an artificial box of rocks, contributes to the overall global warming issue.

[KC143]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7736547#post7736547 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by onereefnotenuf
where did you get the information that it takes 200 red sea tangs(i will assume you mean sailfins) to get one healthy one in my tank? i understand the spirit of you're post but i don't think exaggerating death rates to make a point does anybody any good.

While working in central and south florida it was not uncommen to go to a wholesaler and see several hundred of yellow tangs from indo or other similer species in tanks and as many as 50 dead in the tank. This is obviously a very irreputable example of the wholesale experiance but there are often high numbers of fish and this is one business out of many in the country. "200" is a rounded number but i do not feel it is an exageration. Unfortunatly this hobby starts as a business and a large one at that there are tons of fish for sale right now in the US.

[KC143]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7736636#post7736636 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pactrop
I don't want to keep beating a dead horse but we are consumers.

Ornamentals are also food. the Kole tang means raw in Hawaiian, why? because that is how people liked it prepared. the Naso literatus, Acanthurus triostegus, dussumier, blochii, Bodianus bilunulatus, Myripristis berndti, Lutjanus kasmira, Cephalopholis argus are all on my inventory list regularly and all also found on dinner tables regularly.

I have even seen some butterfly fish laying on ice next to tuna in the fish markets in Tahiti.

Yes other places need to regulate more. How do you suggest controlling how another country harvests?

Well we could start by controlling how import certain elements of reef life, a good start would be to stop allowing live rock from being imported from countries that do not have the strict regulations that we pose on operators in US waters. There is no live rock available from the florida keys or hawaii because we would have none left if we left it up to the business's involved.

[wds21921]

So your example of a worse case scenario is how you judge consumers (pet owners)? The alleged 200 tangs you used as an example seems to be the exception and not the rule, and personally I have a hard time believing that given a few of your postings now.
Exaggerated claims and statements are not going to win you any support nor any credibility.
I do agree with your statement concerning Live Rock though that the sale shipment and deforestation of it needs to be more closely monitored.
And in reference to your apples and oranges statement, the subject is about Responsible Reefkeeping yet you seem to blame the loss of fish and sea life in general on hobbysists. Mayeb we should perhaps change the subject to Responsible Postings?

[KC143]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7738600#post7738600 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wds21921
So your example of a worse case scenario is how you judge consumers (pet owners)? The alleged 200 tangs you used as an example seems to be the exception and not the rule, and personally I have a hard time believing that given a few of your postings now.
Exaggerated claims and statements are not going to win you any support nor any credibility.
I do agree with your statement concerning Live Rock though that the sale shipment and deforestation of it needs to be more closely monitored.
And in reference to your apples and oranges statement, the subject is about Responsible Reefkeeping yet you seem to blame the loss of fish and sea life in general on hobbysists. Mayeb we should perhaps change the subject to Responsible Postings?


This is the rule and it was only one of many wholesalers operating in the us. Do you actually think they only collect a small number of fish? They have to pull everything they can to make a profit. Selling one 65 dollar fish isnt going to pay the shipping it takes bulk orders to make a profit importing these creatures.
Furthermore i am not blaming anyone and if all you can get from my posts are a guilt trip then maybe you actually know this hobby drives a BUSINESS that is at this time un checked and is very irresponsible. 75% of the death that takes place happens while being shipped to the us and either A. dies on the tarmac at the airport or B dies in the wholesalers tanks.

As far as rock goes just use your head and take into account how much rock is for sale at this moment in time in stores only. Then think about How quickly it sells. hundreds of thousands of pounds of rock ends up each year in aquariums when in fact it should be left in the ocean where it can be recolonized by corals.

The harvest of live rock is not needed for the hobby to continue in any way but consumers want it because it offers a multitude of organisms along with it making the aquarium look very nice from day one.

It is very easy to look at some of the things i have said and get defensive. Anyone owning an LFS would already know these things but in order to actually stay in business must ignore it.
You can make light of aspects but how can you say removing the corals and then removing the actual reef itself is not harmful?


I really and truly do not have anything against those in the HOBBY becuase most truly care for the animals they keep, after all it is how i came into the business. But there are many who take what some say too much to heart.

We all walk a fine line in this hobby, and many people think that by attempting to rear these creatures is excuse to take them from the ocean and that part I do have a problem with.

All in all there is no one blame for the problems coral reefs are facing but to further impede the overall health in any way better be done for the right reasons.

i can remeber one case where eric bornman was doing a study on elegance corals. This in itself is not a bad thing but at my store alone i had 4 different people asking for me to tranship them so they could participate in the study. That in my mind is a waste of the corals becuase they all ended up dead in the end not one lived, it was ok to try to learn about a coral in the hope to make there requirements known but IN MY MIND it was a waste.
Why not say oh well that is one that belongs on the reef.
I totally understand the desire to succeed where others have not but you must check yourself.

My desire by posting here on RC is to let some of you guys know the death rates and some of the unethical business practises that i have experianced in the hope that the terms Maricultured and responsible collection practises are seen as what they are in most cases a way for the origianl collecter to improve his profit.
After all while most of you guys are just people who enjoy a hobby this starts as a business and needs to monitored and have actuall guidlines that restrict how one uses catch phrases to sell more of there product
/cheers

[pactrop]

I think this anger is directed at the wrong group of people.

[vitz]

"the LFS is the last link in the chain when it comes to the trip of death for all aquarium livestock"



er-no, the hobbyist is ;)

[onereefnotenuf]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7738471#post7738471 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KC143
While working in central and south florida it was not uncommen to go to a wholesaler and see several hundred of yellow tangs from indo or other similer species in tanks and as many as 50 dead in the tank. This is obviously a very irreputable example of the wholesale experiance but there are often high numbers of fish and this is one business out of many in the country. "200" is a rounded number but i do not feel it is an exageration. Unfortunatly this hobby starts as a business and a large one at that there are tons of fish for sale right now in the US.

just for arguments sake 50 dead in a tank out of what? lets say 100? which I know is a very high ratio means a 1 to 1 ratio not 200 to one. you factor in deaths from the collector lets say he loses half . that brings it to 2 to 1 and finally at the lfs they lose half then it is 4 to1.I know those three "keepers" do not lose 1/2 of their stock each but just to try and see you're point, it still is no where near 200 to 1. how are we supposed to believe the rest of what you say when this is so blatantly wrong? you say you speak from experience but you are losing any credibility by skewing these numbers so incredibly.

[wds21921]

Sorry KC I think your argument may be well intended but your message is definitely skewed at this point. You've lost any credibility with me already.
I'm out of this one.
This is more of a discussion of someone enjoying of hearing or seeing themselves in print.

[Ciarán]

Wow what to say after that? Well this hobby is a bit of a hypocritical stance for me as i am a strict vegetarian and value animal life above most other things. So how do i condone keeping beautiful fish and invertebrates in a pathetic glass box? Well its something that plays on my mind quite a lot and i feel the best i can do, short of totally giving up, is to provied THE best conditions possible within my capability for the animals i have taken from the reef. My motivation for persuing shady ideals in respect to my overall character? I hope some day to give back to the reef what i have taken. Maybe not directly in literal livestock but in using my knowledge to promote conservation and to campaign and lobby for greater ethical standards for the ornamental trade and the food fisheries. I love the hobby and my livestock but i feel that our concern should be borne out with a sense of responsibility in making sure the indulgences which are our exotic pets, can live in the best possible conditions. Other than the personal gratification and pleasure i derive from cultivating and keeping a captive reef, i would not do it as it contradicts who i am. But my love for the animals has caused this transgression of self-ideals and i accept that is a personal failing/weakness/immorality to which i say, yeah, i try to be morally conscious but im human after all and like all of you i love reefing. I try to do the best i can conservation-wise, but its still a destructive process and i accept that guiltily.

buy a Hippo Tang for $8 and resell it for $35

That is ridiculous. A hippo tang here in Ireland is 65Euro. >$70, I would definitely agree to higher prices of livestock to up the standards of collection and holding facilities. After all we probably spend more on lighting, skimming, filtration, pumps/plumbing aquaria themselves and other peripherals than the main attractions of our luxuries, the inhabitants themselves.

In regards to captive bred or cultured livestock, a very good example is the Tridacna derasa clam. Fished to critical levels, primarily for food consumption in Micronesia/Polynesia, aquaculturing facilities have re-established stocks so that the Derasa clams in your aquaria are very likely aqua-cultured specimins for Australia or Tonga from what I gather.

I think captive breeding and culturing of marine organisms is critical to the long-term sustainance of our hobby i wish that one day we will be able to propagate and/or culture all or most of the specimins we keep, in artificial environments with the eventual goal being a degree of self-sustainance in the hobby itself. Some may retort at this rather lofty goal but i think it is a credible objective to strive for. The moral implications would be tremendous from my perspective, being able to indulge in a quite selfish hobby but without destroying the beautiful environment that provided this indulgence. Though thats only a personal view.

My 2c

Ciaran.

[cortez marine]

"....see several hundred of yellow tangs from indo".... ????

Hard to take the thread seriously with so glaring an error...built upon and passed around.
Yellow tangs from Indonesia?
Steve

[GreshamH]

Not to mention Tonga doesn't AC Derasa's Steve :D Just maximas and gigas at the moment. I've requested millions of times that they get into more then just that. They're working on it from what I gather :D

[Galilean]

Having actually recorded individual records of hundreds of tangs. I can tell you that, at least in the store, they do relatively well. I don't know how many to supplier loses, but in the study I did about 11% of the tangs died before sale. This was much better than the overall losses for all fish before sale which was 18%.

[birdfish]

HI all,

I think the thread title is no more than National Enquirer hyperbole. It is the greatest hobby on earth. It generated
more marine biologists than anything since Sea Hunt.

As for 200 dead purple tangs for 1 live one the ratio of DOA
imported PT's is about the exact opposite of that. That for
the 1970'-1980's, since then in the 90's it is a bit higher,
but not much. Different people are collecting in the Red Sea
now using different methods than before. Regardless,
DOA's from the Red Sea, Hawaii (where Yellow Tangs are really from) are near zero, like Australia. Hmmm all hand/net caught fish. Wonder why that is?

Same with Yellow Tangs. These are fish that are usually 100%
live upon arrival at wholesalers. I've been there accepting them
for decades. Posting mis-information and promoting it is
as fact is a true horror of the hobby. No business could
survive with 75% losses, and no one in it, or that really
knows what is going on would agree with a figure a
fraction of that.

birdfish

[Thales]

I agree that 75% DOA may be over stating, but so is 100% live.

Hand caught is not the panacea you make it out to be. Tonga is all net caught and the DOA is no where near 0%. In my neck of the woods the DOA and DAA on hawaii and RS is also nowhere 0%.
Where have you been working? Things may be different in different areas.

[birdfish]

I have seen far more shipments at 98+% live than I have any other figure from the Red Sea, Tonga, or Australia. I have my
own company the last 15 years so don't think I can say the name here. But I have worked for, bought from, sold to, drank beer with or cussed at virtually every importer in the biz in L.A., over the last 30 years, (but where I no longer reside). There are several Tonga shippers. Mine ships fish straight through LA without repack with 100% survival the norm. Same for Hawai'i.

To respond to another comment here: Tonga does and has aquacultered derasa clams for many years. They don't have any
right now because the Japanese who built and ran the clam farm
left last year turning the farm over to the Tongans, who did not
breed the clams like they were supposed to last year. They have been spawned this year, and in a year there will again be as there always have been Tongan derasa available. They are pale in comparison to Samoan and some other derasa out there though.

[GreshamH]

They attempted a few spawns this year, and they didn't do so well. The seratonin landed late, and Knopp attempted with what he had. One big problem they're having, is lack of feed. That problem won't be solved I fear till I finally get over there and work one out for them their feeding protocals (as per their request...on my dollar :lol: ). The clam facility is being half rented, but I degress. Your not the only person in this thread with vast knowledge from working this trade ;). In fact, between three of us (Thales, Cortez and I), there's 60+ years combined.

[Galilean]

Do any of you or your customers keep track of what the LFS sells and loses? I attributed (unofficially in my mind) most of the losses I saw in the stores I worked with to the stores, but I would say a typical store will lose 5% of their fish before sale no matter how well they treat them even from the best suppliers. I would assume your 98%-100% survival figures are only counting those fish you lose before they get to the LFS or those the LFS counts as DOA. Every store I studied had 0.5-1% DOA alone. Poor suppliers might send 10% DOA on occasion.

[birdfish]

Hi Galilean,

I do not specifically keep track" but I know that if my clients are
losing an inordinate amount of stuff - from anywhere - they go somewhere else. I also have Fiji fish that are handcaught, shipped straight thru without being touched in LA, (a potential true horror of the hobby if there is one) and can be stuck an extra day en route, and STILL have 100% survival to the store client! Repeatedly. And the fish live. Good fish, caught right, shipped right, HANDLED right, are good fish. There are some bad stores that kill a lot of fish, and some bad wholesalers too. There are good fish out there, but the general public much as they say otherwise wants the dollar damsel. I wouldn't disagree with 5% loss for a store. Meat markets lose a lot more than that and it is already dead when it got there!! I agree with ALL the figures you give except poor suppliers can be a lot more than 10% DOA !! They don't last though.

birdfish

[Galilean]

Yeah, that supplier was dropped after they had the numbers to prove it. They had several shipments with 5-10% DOA and one with 90% dead before sale but this was a large chicago area supplier that has been in buisiness for some years.

I think most LFS don't know what they are losing because they don't keep good records. Some don't keep records at all because the typical assortment of LFS employees just can't or won't do it for $7/hr.

Poor suppliers can stay in buisiness because on any given week the good suppliers just don't have all the fish the store wants to buy. So the store will take a shipment from a several differnt places. Once the fish are in the store, they often forget which ones came from where and can't distiguish the poor supplier. But in general, I would have to agree with you a bad record will eventually catch up with a bad supplier.

[vitz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8056560#post8056560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Galilean
Yeah, that supplier was dropped after they had the numbers to prove it. They had several shipments with 5-10% DOA and one with 90% dead before sale but this was a large chicago area supplier that has been in buisiness for some years.

I think most LFS don't know what they are losing because they don't keep good records. Some don't keep records at all because the typical assortment of LFS employees just can't or won't do it for $7/hr.

Poor suppliers can stay in buisiness because on any given week the good suppliers just don't have all the fish the store wants to buy. So the store will take a shipment from a several differnt places. Once the fish are in the store, they often forget which ones came from where and can't distiguish the poor supplier. But in general, I would have to agree with you a bad record will eventually catch up with a bad supplier.


that goes for just about everything an lfs employee should be doing ;)

for $7/hr- all you get is a wisenheimer who expects to just hang around and then collect their paycheck :P

[Thales]

Its not just the employees. I am shocked at the number of LFS owners who don't seem to understand the importance of this kind of information.

[Cathy1]

A big problem is when people think they can just jump into the hobby without research get fish and inverts and the dont live very long because of poor water conditions and other factors. http://www.tbsaltwater.com is a really great website if you are looking to purshase live rock but are worried about depleting reefs.

[Thales]

I actually think its better to buy live rock from someone leaving the hobby than to buy it fresh from anywhere. Burning jet fuel to fly rock around isn't so good for the reefs either. :D