750g circulation

[ab5ebdxer]

We are getting ready to put together the circulation system for a 750g tank that finally arrived. I am wondering what kind of gph flow you guys think is good and what is the best way to accomplish this task. I was thinking around 25,000gph with a extensive closed loop system.

Thanks

Mike

[Nanook]

What kind of reef tank is this going to be? Depending on the corals you are keeping, the answers can vary widely.

Nook

[ab5ebdxer]

Nook,

I think the answers will vary widely no matter what but we will have some sps in some areas but hope to have a variety of corals. I realize it might not be a easy question to answer. We will have some areas of lower lighting that should be good for sps etc.

Mike

[Nanook]

Gotcha! The other question I neglected to ask was pertaining to the dimensions of your tank.

Over 30X tank turnover is a nice figure, now the trick is how to do it without blowing the flesh off of certain corals, blowing the sandbed around and hitting all the dead spots :D

I think a combination of the closed loop you mention and perhaps some powerheads, ie: The new vortechs, Tunze Streams and Turbelles, Ocean Motions 4-8way (which I do not know much about), or other wavemaking devices to mix it up. Random flow is desirable, keeping in mind that the more varied the flow is, the better your tank will look down the road.

[ricks]

With that kind of heat, I'd look for about a 2HP chiller.. I run a 1 HP on my 500 with about 12,000 of flow...

[ab5ebdxer]

Nook,

The tank is 5ft by 8ft by 30in. We are planning on building a support structure for the live rock which will also have closed loops returning water through the rock. I have been using www.oregonreef.com as an outline for this project and I like the way he did his flow and rock. We are planning on three closed loops that will each have several outlets. We will be able to direct each outlet.

Ricks,

We have not considered our needs for a chiller yet. We really want to put the lights on and see where it settles out. I am sure we will need one though.

Thanks for the input guys.

Mike

[pondfrog]

I'll jump in and vote for the obvious--- ditch the closed loop and get the Tunze system. I really don't understand the fascination with closed loops- I had a closed loop on my 300 and it wasn't all that great----you can't change it (easily anyway) and the flow coming out of the "exhuast" is a small spot flow no matter how many outlets you have on it.

Going with a wavebox and stream combo would seem to be a better option (It's the way I"m going on my upgrade) I currently run a WB/stream combo on my 300 sump and love it.
In a tank as large as yours the WB and the stream will disappear and/or can be covered.

[Buk_A_neer]

I had 2 cloed loops on my old 330G system and it worked quite well in conjunction with 4 eductors

If you are familiar with eductors they basically take 1 gph input and put out 4 to 5 gph output ( with a pressure rated pump )

this can significantly increase your flow with a minimum of cost in comparison to buying overpriced powerheads ( sorry but I dont like stuff hanging on the inside of my tanks AND have to pay big bucks for it )

A good example of how much flow you can achieve with a closed loop and a eductor is using a mak5 or ( Iwaki 70 ) rated at approx 1500 gph ... with only one eductor you would incrase flow from that pump up to potentially 7500 gph ... with that size pump you can actually run 2 eductors pushing approximately 50% more flow so closer to 10000 gph ... using a wave device of your choice you could plumb 4 outputs for each closed loop on each end of the tank for a more varied flow

OH ... and another thing ... the output of a eductor is not a " spot flow " as has previously been mentioned ... but gives a " Tunzee like " wide dispersion over a large area

So a couple closed loops and you can see how much flow can be attained for a fraction of the cost of those high end powerheads

Here is a link to a flow chart based on pump specs to output

http://www.kthsales.com/website/Misc/Low%20pressure%20eductor%20flow%20rates.pdf

this company has what they call " penductors " which is what I used on my old tank and what I plan to use on my new tank and they are smaller and less obtrusive in a reeftank environment

PS ... nice to see that I am not the only loon that thought 330G was too small :D ... I have the glass ordered for my 638G ( 96X48X32 ) and it gets delivered on Sunday ;)

[shaw]

well, i would think a closed loop hooked to oceanmotions, or actuated ball valve would help considerably.

[pondfrog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7075871#post7075871 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Buk_A_neer

PS ... nice to see that I am not the only loon that thought 330G was too small :D ... I have the glass ordered for my 638G ( 96X48X32 ) and it gets delivered on Sunday ;)


:lol:
Yes, I feel sorry for those folks who are "upgrading" from a 75 to a 200 and say this is the "big one"............there is always bigger-- give it a year or so!!! :rolleyes: hmmmm, I guess that's true even for me now.................. doggone it!

While your point on eductors is a good one, I have seen enough waveboxes now to really like the effect--- it really is like you are diving the way things sway.
And the streams can change position in the long run....while with a closed loop you are going to be pretty stuck with it setup as it is initially. As the tank inhabitants grow and change the flexibility may be nice.
But definately a much less expensive way to acheive a similar goal! If I ever did a CL again, I would use the penductors.

[Buk_A_neer]

I imagine to have some of the penductors static but see if I can get locline <sp?> to be able to direct the flow where I want it on some of the returns ... I have never used locline before so not sure if that would work

[Stephany]

TippyToex posted an old thread started by "Bomber" saying that they were dangerous. I didn't read the whole thing, but as the discussion proceeded... that didn't seem to be the case.

I tried messaging her, but she's not accepting private messages. :(
I think the oceans motions idea is great though... if we could get it donated. :D

[Buk_A_neer]

locline or penductors ?

I have been running penductors for years now with no issues

[Stephany]

Looks like if we do use penductors we will not be able to use a sea swirl. ... if that's in budget anyway.

http://www.kthsales.com/website/Misc/hello_salt_water_enthusiasts.htm

[alien9168]

Tagging.

[Scuba_Dave]

alien9168

if you look at the botton of each thread you will see a button that says

"Subscribe to this thread"

Located:
Below "Post reply" is "quick reply", below that and to the right is the "Submit post" button
Below THAT & to the right is
"Subscribe to this thread"

No need to make a meaningless post
Many people miss this
Hope that helps :)

[alien9168]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7127595#post7127595 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scuba_Dave
alien9168

if you look at the botton of each thread you will see a button that says

"Subscribe to this thread"

Located:
Below "Post reply" is "quick reply", below that and to the right is the "Submit post" button
Below THAT & to the right is
"Subscribe to this thread"

No need to make a meaningless post
Many people miss this
Hope that helps :)

I know how to subscribe to the thread...

Alot of people think that simply saying "tagging" is meaningless.

Let me explain my logic.

#1 If I post, tagging, I announce myself to the threads creator...I will inevitably post more.

#2 By tagging, my acount automatically subscribes to this thread

#3 It expresses my intrest in the topic of disgussion to the creator of the thread and all that view it.

I dont mean to make meaningless posts.... sorry if your took it that way. :)

[Stephany]

Anyone have any further experiences with the use of penductors, good or bad?

[MickyB]

ab5ebdxer,

Like the size of your tank. Is it going to be in the basement on concrete floor? Have the same size 3/4" acrylic and have 4 Tunze 6100's no closed loops and an Ampmaster 5800 (i think
)pump for a return from a 300 gallon sump. The tank is softies and alot of Fish. The sump is full of live rock. Have alot of open space in the front 3 ft of the tank for the fish to swim. The only thing that i get is the red cyano growing in a few places , think it's caused by old MH bulbs and not enough flow. Had 6 250W MH over it and the 1HP chiller keep it at 79 in the summer with no problem.

[Stephany]

It is going on a wooden stand...

So 4 Tunze 6100's & an ampmaster 5800 is not enough flow. Gotcha, I think that we were going for more flow...

Each Tunze 6100 is rated for 3175 gallons per hour x 4 = 12700gph.
+
Is it a "Dolphin Super Ampmaster 5600?" The only thing I'm coming up for 5800 is the "Sequence 5800".
Anyway 5800 gph... are you happy with that pump?

12700 + 5800 = 18500 gph. Would you think this to be accurate?
I don't think we're worrying about the heat factor yet.

[moriartiholmes]

I'm not sure what the tank will look like when it's done but I was thinking about energy/set up cost efficiency on a large tank and I thought of a series of surge buckets. You could make a stand for a bunch of 5-gallon buckets (as many as you can fit would be great. If you can find taller buckets even better. Then inside the buckets, you could use a simple siphon surge device or a Borneman flush devise for a little more money. The surge devices could be run on MJ 1200 which only push 300 GPH but through the surge device, the 300 GPH will be sent randomly and in strong spurts, which should benefit the livestock.
If you want stronger surges, you could use stronger feed pumps in larger containers, say a MAG 9.5 and a garbage can.
I would also add a closed loop or something more traditional for good circulation.
Like I said, I don't really know what the set up looks like, and I was thinking what would be more economical. In reality you'll probably just have to work with whatever you are donated :)

So who will be responsible for maintenance once the tank is complete? Just asking because that seems like it could cause a problem.

[dalbrecht]

I agree with moriarti holmes, except I would encourage you to look at the potential of using a roughneck or two.

Another option would be some type of piston wave maker, dump bucket or surge device. I would just recomomend a larger single surge device built off of a garbage can rather than multiple smaller devices. It would be simpler & more dramatic.

[Buk_A_neer]

The problem with large volume surge devices is that they play havoc with top off systems ... not impossible to deal with but certainly more of a challenge as well as potential water on the floor

[enamdjd]

I would add Tunze 6200's and hide in the rock work. They are efficient and quite powerful.

[Buk_A_neer]

The thing I have considered is the cost

Tunzee's are very expensive up front cost

three penductors ( $75.00 ) with a PanworldMD70R ( 1750 gph ) ( $250.00 ) would generate over 2600 gph ( $ 325.00 )

that would equal 5 Tunzee 6200's @ $450.00 each = $ 2250.00

now the Panworld uses 290 watts

the Tunzee's use 62W each or 310W total

If the stats on the Penductors are accurate for that pump ( pretty sure they are )

but even if you run only 2 Penductors/Panworld that is 17,500 gph ( $ 300.00 ) or 3 Tunzee 6200's 15849 gph ( $ 1350.00 )

Plumbing costs would vary for the closed loops depending on your DIY skills ( diamond bits 5 - 6 dollars on ebay, bulkheads 10 - 15 dollars each And tubing ball valves etc 20 to 30 dollars = 50 - 70 dollars or so )

The electricity savings in the latter example would be 104 watts in favour of the Tunzee's

I am posting this to get some constructive criticsm because it is the " Ben Franklin " that I have done in deciding to setup my tank that I am building

Question to all out there ... what is the lowest wattage High Pressure pump that you know of ? ... so far the Iwaki lookalike ( Panworld http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PW-200PS&Category_Code=Panworld ) are the best priced that I have found so far

[hdtvguy]

Look at running a Gen-X PCX-55HP pump driving 2 pens. I use this pump for one of my CL works great.

[Buk_A_neer]

Looking for at least as much output as the panworld though ( 1750 gph/39 ft head pressure ) ... only problem with the panworld is the 290W ... is there a pressure rated pump out there with as much flow/head pressure but less costly on the hydro ?

[hdtvguy]

I don't think you will find one coming under 290W. Trust me try a gen-x I have mine CL pump mounted just under the first floor in the basement. I get some crazy flow from the 2 pens on that pump. Uses very little power compared to that pump.