Is the Ich still alive?

[j2me5ku]

For about a month, my 10 gal tank has been sitting in my kitchen. It was once infested with ich. All the inhabitants have been treated hypo in a QT and moved to my 20H gal tank.

The question is, is the ich still alive? I have turned off my hang on tank filter; took out the heater; and the only things left in the tank are a 1" sand bed and 2 medium sized LR. I've tried to read and understand the life cycle of Ich, but I am quite unsure of my current state. To my understanding, I believe that the cyst can still be alive on the rock and sand. I do not want to treat the tank with any copper because I would like to reuse the rock in my 20H gal tank and use the sand in a 10 gal sump/fuge I am planning to make.

What can I do to salvage this tank without infecting my other tank with ich.

Thanks in advance.

[reg828]

tank fallow, the minimum is 4 weeks, but to make sure you can go with 5 weeks. i went 5 weeks and last week i just put my fish. seems like all my fish are doing fine, no signs of ich. however, you said you took off the heater. i heard that ich can live longer with low temp.

[leebca]

Dr. Burgess discovered that the 'cyst' stage of this parasite can in fact exist up to 6 weeks before moving on to the next stage. For this reason, I always advise that a tank that for sure had Marine Ich, go fishless for no less than 8 weeks.

Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) life cycle is not that much affected by temperature, like its freshwater counterpart.

:rollface:

[baobao]

Lee,
here's some relevant background information -
Subsequent to my tanking manifesting ich, I lowered the specific gravity to 1.009. The ich seemed to have gone away after a couple of days. After about two weeks, the ich came back with a vengence.

I have the following questions:
1. Even if one deploys hypo, is it normal for the ich trophonts to require 1-2 weeks to detach from the fish? During the time the trophonts are attached to the fish, I take it they still stress the fish?
2. I'm puzzled that the ich came back so strongly, my hunch is that I accidentally allowed the sg to increase to 1.010. Is that sufficient for the ich strain to survive?

I should also add this piece of information - I have a hunch that my system has Brooklynellosis ( I need to buy a microscope, can you recommend one? so that I can diagnose things scientifically.). Is it the case that Brook. is an opportunistic parasite that tends to manifest itself when fish are in weakened state? I am also treating the DT for Brook (see my other thread).

Sorry for hijacking this thread but the title seemed too befitting.

[leebca]

You've touched a very important part of the treatment process: proper diagnosis. "It goes away and then comes back with a vengeance" is not what true Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) does in real life while being treated. BUT there can be two explanations for what you see.

The part of the cycle which is very susceptible to hyposalinity is the 'encystment' stage (known as Tomonts) and the free-swimming infecting stage (known as Theronts). If you see white spots on the fish, then the parasite is ahead of (just before) these two stages. If you see the fish clean, then the parasite has moved on from this stage OR Theronts that were already on/in the fish which you haven't seen are there, engorging themselves but not yet invisible.

So the ones you now see, after the first group seem to have gone away, are either the ones that lived through the hyposalinity exposed Tomont and Theront stage and now back on the fish OR are actually more Theronts that were imbedded in your fish as Trophonts, that just weren't visible. Does this make sense?

Too often people think it's gone then comes back, when there is another explanation -- the Trophonts were there on the fish, just weren't visible yet. The only part of the cycle we humans can see with the naked eye is the part after the Theronts have attached, they have become Trophonts on/in the fish, and now are engorged or 'pregnant' and ready to go on to the next stage. You might call these the 'mature phase' of the Trophont stage. That's what we can see.

So let's look at the two possibles: Did the parasite go all the way through the vulnerable stages to return to infecting your fish or were they already there but not yet seen? For the former, you would have to come up with a scientific reason why they weren't killed by hyposalinity when the world 'knows' (?) that hyposalinity kills them. For the second possible, all you need do is acknowledge that they were there, but not yet visible to you.

There is a scientific explanation of the former case. Dr. Burgess refers to the hyposalinity treatment as a 'stressing of the parasite' and not an outright killer. Thus, some would squeak through the process on one or two rounds, according to him.

Remember the parasite is in all different stages all the time. They move from stage to stage in a time range and thus they are not all in sync with each other. So the second possible now gets the majority support of what is happening.

What can happen, from my experience, is that a very small number (small percentage) of Tomonts and Theronts squeak by the first hypo effect. They were 'hurt' and 'stressed' but not killed outright. That is one reason I favor the salinity of 11ppt -- lower than 1.009 sp. gr. In essence, any higher salinity does allow a small percentage to 'squeak through.' But this percentage is low. What usually happens is that the Theronts were there on/in the fish, but the aquarist just couldn't see them yet until they entered the 'mature phase' of the that particular stage.

Now to your questions. . .

1) Yes. The hypo treatment doesn't alter the time of parasite's stage on/in the fish. Yes. In fact this is the only time the fish is stressed. Humans really don't know, but it could be like you were being stung by a mosquito constantly, but unable to get it off of you. It can drive the fish mad, as such a mosquito would do to some humans. People who take no action to help their fish get rid of this infection -- who let the fish 'fend for itself' -- are, in my opinion, torturing their fish.

2) Although possible, I'd say not likely. The swing upward would need to slip it to the 14ppt salinity level. I think more likely you are just seeing the 'mature stage' of the Trophonts that were already there, but invisible to you OR a very small percentage of those that made it through the hypo treatment (all of which is detailed above). :D

Brooklynella is a disease caused by a different organism -- a protozoan to be exact. This organism has no free-swimming phase and just lives on the fish. It eats the fish, so to speak. Usually it starts with the gills and goes on to surface tissue and blood cells. There are a considerable number of scientists who believe that Brooklynella infects fish that are stressed and that theoretically the fish can fend it off naturally if they aren't stressed. I have no firsthand knowledge.

But, what captured fish, held prisoner in our aquarium is not stressed? Prevention is far better than trying to do a cure later on. A fish with Marine Ich exposed to Brooklynella would, in essence not stand a chance to fend off the Brooklynella.

[baobao]

Thanks for the insightful response. So the silverlining is that one has to be patient, the hyposalinity treatment requires time, there is no magic bullet - when losses occur, it it not necessarily because the hypo did not work - the fish may already have been too stressed, and perhaps the fish did not stand a chance because it already was infested with these attached theronts.

[leebca]

Yes and no. (Isn't that always the answer baobao?) :)

There is an intervention step I recommend. The aquarist has to be astute on when to use the step.

A freshwater dip with methylene blue (as you've already found the thread in this forum) is a means to help the fish. A FW dip we all know will not cure the fish. The Marine Ich is actually protected by the fish's own mucous coating and top skin layer. However, a FW dip will help a fish that has a breathing problem. If I think a fish is in such a state, I will perform a FW dip before starting hypo treatment (and during a hypo treatment if the fish doesn't seem to be helped). This is under the assumption that the fish must go through hypo. One of the reasons that this helps is because the Marine Ich attached to the gills are more vulnerable to the effects of a FW dip.

If the fish is heavily infected and I believe its life is in danger, I do the FW dip and begin a copper treatment in a reduced salinity hospital tank, and don't bother with the hyposalinity treatment.

You've hit the nail on the head though. The key is patience and diligence in any treatment. As humans we believe what we see. But this parasite lives most of its life invisible to us. So we need to be very careful when we say 'It's gone' 'it's back' 'it was never there' etc., etc.

You had asked about microscopes before. . .I haven't shopped for them in about 35 years! I bought one for my microbiological studies for a high school project in 1968 and that has been with me since. You might want to do a search on the Internet. You should get a few hundred hits. If you live near a university or college you could inquire about them selling any student scopes when they buy new ones. At OSU they sold the old ones to help finance new ones.