Soda machine chiller?

[KEITHMC]

Ok guys I have a soda machine right next to my sump it has a refrigeration unit on top and maintains a 15# of ice on the coils in a water bath!
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/107724soda.JPG
Ice on the coils
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/107724icedcoils.JPG
I am planning on using the water bath to circulate through a heat exchanger in the sump with a pump on a dual stage temp controller!

Front of the unit
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/107724front.JPG

I will be using the existing drain, which I have fitted with a 3/8 drain line

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/107724drain.JPG

What I need now is some suggestions for the heat exchanger and the pump!!

[xrunner1234]

What's the BTU rating?

[KEITHMC]

not sure the only info plate on the thing only gives 8.5 amps uses 134a and has a capicity of 6.5oz of refirerant

[jay24k]

Is that a brass/copper fitting on the end? I read a few people on here having major issues with using those type of fittings.

[landragon]

I would not use that if it were brass.

[KEITHMC]

will not matter the loop will be filled with the fresh water from the ice bath the only part that will be exposed to saltwater is the coil in the sump and the tubing just need to know what other people have used for heat-exchangers in their sumps!

[orlenz]

McmasterCarr.com sells titanium tubing, you can roll some aorund a jig and make a coil and run your tank water through it.
make sure you get the anealed (soft) tubing.
1/2" is $109 for a 3 foot length.

[KEITHMC]

just spoke with aqua logic and their drop in coil is around $130 just for the raw coil any other sugesstions for a good heat exchanger?

[xrunner1234]

You could probably get away with using 1/4". Did you price that?

[KEITHMC]

no the price i got was for a 3/8 in coil the same as the drain line on the ice bath i think i am going to use a mag 2 for circulation and a rk2 for the temp control i think 1/4" would have too much head loss for the mag 2!

[KEITHMC]

Well I purchased 30ft of 1/2 in poly tubing hooked it to my 200gph pump and placed the coiled tube in my 30gal mix container and plugged it in it pulled down 10f in 1 hr but I think I am going to go with a titanium tube heat exchanger for better transfer and the fact that I just don’t want to put 25ft of coiled tube in my sump!

I am going to get a reefkeeper2 to control my circulating pump anyone had any problems with these?

[douggiestyle]

might try stainless steel. from all that ive read ss will corode in salt water. but at a fairly slow rate if in constant submersion. not a chance i would take with the ss under a fair ammount of internal pressure and circulating some type of refrigerant other than pure water. but if you circulated only pure water, if a leak occured who cares. just replace the tubing. might try a ss coil (try a flex gas connector) in the cooler area. also one in the tank sump. connect them with poly and a pump to circulate.

[KEITHMC]

it is pure water circulating at about 30-40f

[douggiestyle]

see you are ok with ss then. if the line was to break there would be no contamination.

ti is hard to bend from what ive read. the correct technique is to fill the ti with cerro bend. seal the ends and then use a bender used for thin walled ss tubing. i think it was called a 3 axis or roller bender. then remove the cerro bend. use acid to remove cerro bend residues from inside the ti. then anneal if using in high pressure or stress area.

with a ss flex gas connector the ss is of the very good variety that resists corrosion (303 ?) i have a table some where. also no special bending required. no special order, buy one at hd. get a long one, maybe 6'.carefully drill out the flares to remove the brass fittings and use an all nylon compression fitting in its place.

[KEITHMC]

Cool think its time to go back to HD and shop again =)

[douggiestyle]

make sure and clean the ss real good. also might try cracking the brass fittings off then cut off the flare.

good luck.
post the results.

[douggiestyle]

oh, and do not get the kind of flex connector that is painted. even though it says it resists corrosion longer. the last thing you want is paint flakes floating around

[Avast Marine]

Here is something that I have been thinking about. Cold plate. (http://ceisites.com/cold_plate.htm)
All SS, takes minimal space is rectagular and sub $100:rollface: .

[kgross]

Don't go with SS, there are only a couple of types of stainless that will not carrod in saltwater, go with titanium. If SS would work the chiller manufactures would not be using titanium since SS is less expensive.

Also on those coldplates they are SS tubing in aluminum. Unless you want lots of aluminum in your tank I would not suggest them.

Either spend the money on the titanium heat exchanger or use the poly tubing

Kim

[fitti69]

If you really want to go with stainless tubing make sure it is high grade and non ferrous { a magnet wont stick } . If it is not , you will just be wasting money and kicking yourself later . Lower grade AKA magnetic stainless has to much iron in it , atleast i wouldnt want it in my tank . This is why the aquarium chiller industry uses titanium for most of there applications . High grade stainless is strong as hell , and stands up to corrosion . Only problem is it has a low tensil strength , splits and tears easy when you try to form it . Titanium on the other hand , its soft and malible . Also has better corosion resistance . That "titanium" color is a layer of corosion that helps protect the metal . So i guess what i am saying is , if you can find the SS tubing on the shelf it probally wont work for you . The only reall way to bend the stuff in tube form is through hydroforming .

[fitti69]

lol....kgross posted while i was typing...lol

[KEITHMC]

thank you, so i am back to the preformed coil from Aqua-logic that they use on their chillers i was Quoted $130 for the 3/8" raw coil!

[fitti69]

lol...that sounds steep...... FWIW i know a guy who keeps a 500 gal tank with a 100 gal sump and a 55 frag tank all cool with a box fan and a temp controller .

[kgross]

Fans with evaporative cooling will cool a lot, as long as you have something for an autopoff unit, and have a low humidity house. Personally I don't like chillers they are to expensive to operate and a room AC unit will not only keep the tank cool, but it will also keep me cool.

Kim

[KEITHMC]

Bah... if i dont use this thing for a chiller what the heck am i going to do with it drink soda or something silly like that =)

[KEITHMC]

well my current plan is to purchase a rk2 and set 2 chiller channels 1 at 78 for fans over the tank and the second at 80 for the circulating pump on the ice bath

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7140786#post7140786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kgross
Don't go with SS, there are only a couple of types of stainless that will not carrod in saltwater, go with titanium. If SS would work the chiller manufactures would not be using titanium since SS is less expensive.

Also on those coldplates they are SS tubing in aluminum. Unless you want lots of aluminum in your tank I would not suggest them.

Either spend the money on the titanium heat exchanger or use the poly tubing

Kim

the reason that commercial salt water chillers dont use ss is that the ss will corode (eventually) leaking the refrigerant into the tank. and this is not something that will happen over night. with only pure water running through the system, what is the worry? please come up with a logical answer?

ok so that said. as i mentioned earlier in your case keith ss is ok.

check out this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785135
it is a project that ive been working on.

marine grade ss is very resistant to corrosion when in a submerged environ. in a salt pray test it corrodes much faster. still i would not use stainless in a chiller design using a coolent that would contaminate the tank. but again if you are using pure water and the thing springs a leak 3 years from now who cares its only water.

[kgross]

the reason that commercial salt water chillers dont use ss is that the ss will corode (eventually) leaking the refrigerant into the tank. and this is not something that will happen over night. with only pure water running through the system, what is the worry? please come up with a logical answer?

This is a real easy question to answer. The metals in the SS are slowly coroding building up in the saltwater of your aquarium. I don't like the idea of adding extra metals to the water in my reef aquarium. Since the cooling medium in this case is not a problem (not that I was worried about the coolent killing everything in the first place). I don't like the idea of adding extra amounts of the metals that are used to create the SS.

Kim

[orlenz]

[QUOTE with only pure water running through the system, what is the worry? please come up with a logical answer?


marine grade ss is very resistant to corrosion [/QUOTE]

If I understood the question, he will be putting the tubing in the soda machine and running tank water throught it,

I've worked with metals for over 30 years and never heard of marine grade stainless,
some stainless are corrosion resistant such as ss 316, 321 and A286, but it's much harder to work with than the anealed titanium.

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7143445#post7143445 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by orlenz
[QUOTE with only pure water running through the system, what is the worry? please come up with a logical answer?


marine grade ss is very resistant to corrosion

If I understood the question, he will be putting the tubing in the soda machine and running tank water throught it,

I've worked with metals for over 30 years and never heard of marine grade stainless,
some stainless are corrosion resistant such as ss 316, 321 and A286, but it's much harder to work with than the anealed titanium. [/QUOTE]

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=SUNA,SUNA:2005-52,SUNA:en&q=marine+grade+stainless

ss flex gas connector is not hard to bend

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7143263#post7143263 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kgross
This is a real easy question to answer. The metals in the SS are slowly coroding building up in the saltwater of your aquarium. I don't like the idea of adding extra metals to the water in my reef aquarium. Since the cooling medium in this case is not a problem (not that I was worried about the coolent killing everything in the first place). I don't like the idea of adding extra amounts of the metals that are used to create the SS.

Kim

the coolent killing everything is the problem. but with pure water it is not a problem.

the ss metal coroding is not an issue. and then the majority would be iron. tiny amount of molybdenum. some carbon a little bit of nickle and chromium.

304 or 316 is marine grade stainless. 316 being the best. i believe the ss gas flex connectors are of the 304 variety or close to it (303 ?).

now i know that someone may say that chromium is poisonous and they would be correct. but remember that ss is used in the body for med devises regularly. and so far i havent been poisoned. and the body is pretty salty.

also key is submersion not a salt spray. salt spay is the main cause for ss corrosion.

[KEITHMC]

Ok so how well will SS transfer heat compared to Titanium?

[xrunner1234]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7145111#post7145111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KEITHMC
Ok so how well will SS transfer heat compared to Titanium?

Very close.

[douggiestyle]

ti is a poor heat conductor so you would do no better with it.

if my chem is right the more ductile a metal is the more conductive. ti is pretty hard therefor it it is poor conductor. gold on the other hand is a good heat conducter.

and no offense kim, because you had a very logical fear. check out the contents of kent marine essential ellements.

http://www.kentmarine.com/saltwater/ee.html

and sorry i confused chromium poisoning with cadmium poisoning

[Drake1]

ok i have been using my SS chiller 10 years and still running strong, i have the same setup with a soda chiller, i ran copper on the cooler fins of the chiller and then i used a transition to go to a ss coil so i can drop it in the sump, i used a thin plastic heat shrink over the ss in the sump to keep water off it. it chills great and that heat shrink tube is only pennies per foot and offers no insulation value and i also pump fresh water thru my lines...hope this helps...jeff

[KEITHMC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7151816#post7151816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Drake1
ok i have been using my SS chiller 10 years and still running strong, i have the same setup with a soda chiller, i ran copper on the cooler fins of the chiller and then i used a transition to go to a ss coil so i can drop it in the sump, i used a thin plastic heat shrink over the ss in the sump to keep water off it. it chills great and that heat shrink tube is only pennies per foot and offers no insulation value and i also pump fresh water thru my lines...hope this helps...jeff
cool.. Did you make the coil or buy it?

[Drake1]

i made the coil, its just a series of weid bends not what i would call a coil but it fits in the sump

[Drake1]

if you didn't want to make a coil you could just use pex U connectors on peieces of strait pipe if it's to thick to bend
jeff

[KEITHMC]

Thanks Jeff!

[fitti69]

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7145476#post7145476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
[B]ti is a poor heat conductor so you would do no better with it.

if my chem is right the more ductile a metal is the more conductive. ti is pretty hard therefor it it is poor conductor. gold on the other hand is a good heat conducter.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Lets get one thing straight . We are talking about a titanium alloy . 99.9% of all manufactured titanium is an alloy . The strongest Ti alloy has a Rockwell hardness C in the mid 40's which is top of the line aerospace grade . 440 stainless has a rockwell hardness C of 55 - 60 and up , depending on the purity of the alloy and the consistancy of the carbon deposits . Dougiestyle , although your chemistry calculations are somewhat correct , your conclusion isnt . As you can see Ti is much more malible than SS . Re-read my first post .

>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry KEItTHMC , i feel like we hijacked your thread .

[KEITHMC]

Fitt, You have not hijacked anything enjoying all the input so I can make an informed decision on how to proceed!

[fitti69]

KEITHMC.....my honest opinion is to put the soda machine back together and sell it on Ebay . You get a couple hundred for it and buy a chiller. It would be much more efficiant since this is what it is built for . Hell ' my bar is almost done....maybe i'll buy the thing off ya :) .

[KEITHMC]

waoh hold up there you aint gettin my coke machine it is fully functional and at the end of this project it will still be functional!

[fitti69]

LMAO...........I thought it was just a Pepsi machine ....... For a CoaCola machine i might just make you the titanium coil myself ......

[KEITHMC]

Well ok you got me it was originally a Pepsi but I am vending coke just cant find a beverage company that will come off a dang sticker with out a $100 purchase lol

[Earl87gta]

Here is a good thred that has a few good heat exchangers that you may be able to use. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177111

[douggiestyle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7140840#post7140840 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fitti69
If you really want to go with stainless tubing make sure it is high grade and non ferrous { a magnet wont stick } . If it is not , you will just be wasting money and kicking yourself later . Lower grade AKA magnetic stainless has to much iron in it , atleast i wouldnt want it in my tank . This is why the aquarium chiller industry uses titanium for most of there applications . High grade stainless is strong as hell , and stands up to corrosion . Only problem is it has a low tensil strength , splits and tears easy when you try to form it . Titanium on the other hand , its soft and malible . Also has better corosion resistance . That "titanium" color is a layer of corosion that helps protect the metal . So i guess what i am saying is , if you can find the SS tubing on the shelf it probally wont work for you . The only reall way to bend the stuff in tube form is through hydroforming .

so now i have read your first post a second time.

this is not a problem with ss coroding. and i keep saying this. do not use ss in a chiller using anything other than pure water would be my best suggestion.

BUT... if you are using pure water PLEASE tell me why using ss is a bad idea?

that aside
ti alloy thermal conductivity is 20.6 W/m.K @ 500c
316 ss is 21.5 W/m.K @ 500c

so you would do yourself no better. i would also say they are about same.

actually you have it kind of backwards ti is rather ductile until its made into an alloy. in its purest state ti has a higher thermal conductivity than 316. i did not compare ti to iron.

it is these alloys (ti3al2.5v or grade 9) that i was referencing. they are easily purchased for a low price on ebay. i found 1/2"x36" for $19.95.

but that is another project. one that does not involve pure water.

keith has great idea. the efficiency may be off a bit. but overall the addition of a $20 6' ss flex gas line, with its ribbed sides, could increase that efficiency as well as free up some sump space.

[creslin2]

For those looking for a cheaper chiller alternative:

a local club member did his own chiller and works GREAT. I've been to his place and seen the results. Cost him a little more than $200 if I remember right. You can contact Travis on the Sioux Falls Area Aquarium Society forum (here on RC) if you have any other questions pertaining to his setup.

DIY chiller (http://sio.midco.net/cdshelton/website/DIY/Outdoor-chiller-housing/outdoor_chiller_housing.htm)

[Alex Kwong]

I had a hot & cool water dispenser about a meter next to my tank.
It come with a small bar fridge on below part of it that I never use.
I thinking to use the idea from OZ Reef, run a vinyl tube from sump in to it.
URL:
http://ozreef.org/diy_plans/temperature_control/chiller.html
http://ozreef.org/gallery/albums/diy/chiller_diagram.gif

But the inlet water is from the excess flow out from return pump instead of put in another pump as like below drawing. If the flow too fast, maybe add a small valve between the PVC pipe and the connector to vinyl tube.
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4021/diycooling1xj.jpg

I believe the bath of water in your soda machine is much chilly than my small bar fridge. I guess running few circle of vinyl tube inside the water bath then back to sump is good enough. That is more simple if it work for you.

[BeanAnimal]

The "small bar fridge" will not be anywhere near powerful enough to chill your tank, unless of course it is a nano.

Bean

[joelowrider]

you could also go to a fab shop and have them bend and weld some ss i think that might be cheaper