Hypo Salinity in my 92 FOWLR tank, please help!! 911

[psuj22]

Everyone,
I’m currently treating Ich with Hypo salinity treatment in my main tank (92 gallon) and my current S.G. is at 1.014 and my fish are already acting funny and not eating. I cant even see my Powder Blue Tang anymore and my Imperator Angel is staying at the top of my overflow, turned slightly sideways and doesn’t even run that much when I touch him with my finger. All my other numbers were ok this morning.. Except for the PH, which was at 7.8, and I just added some PH buffer to bring it back up to 8.4(which was brought up pretty quickly as soon as I added the powder) Please help.. I’m freaking out because of the way my angel is acting. Any comments on the situation? Any advice?

Should I start taking the S.G. back up slowly? (I’ve been bringing the SG. Slowly for the past few days and I lowered the SG. From a 1.020 to a 1.014yesterday in about 8hrs..) ?
I got a few other fish that are hiding, butseems to be holding up ok.. Like my yellow tang, damsels, cardinals, puffer, and Blue Girdled Angelfish…Should I move the Imperator angel to a different tank and slowly bring up the SG in that tank??

[archie1709]

Wow dude, you have a lot of huge fish there.

Well, in terms of the treatment, I would guess that the lowering of SG was a bit too quick. They say it doesn't matter how quick you reduce SG, but make sure you increase SG gently. However, that sounded a bit too quick.

Also, it would help to have an LFS calibrate your hydrometer with a refractometer. It wouldn't make it efficient or accurate, but at least you have a benchmark. (Temp calibrate it also, meaning see what the salinity level is at a certain temp, and compare it with the numbers that your hydrometer gets).

in terms of the treatment, don't back out. Most fish can handle SG down to 1.010. But it is a stressful thing for you and the fish.

Also, when you add your buffer, I hope you didn't just casually dissolve the powder in a cup. You will have to carefully dissolve the powder until the SW is semi-clear again (this is if you don't have time). Normally, though, I add buffer in an aerating and aging fresh batch of Saltwater.

Ich is a steady killer in this hobby. I am an example. I went through 3 months of hypo at the end of last year. I erradicated it successfully. I lost a few fish. But the tang lived.

Now, I added a coral and, bam, the infamous spots came back. I have corals, rockwork, etc etc. I don't have the leisure of catching the tang and QTing it. It would do more harm on the tang than good.

I have to find alternatives.

Good luck, my friend.

[mako199]

I would never even try this without a refractometer ...if your using a plastic hydrometer..... they are more inacurate then you think.

[psuj22]

Much tanks to everyone that replied..
I am using a refractometer.. And pretty much everything I read said to take it down to 1.010..but my fish are already acting funny at 1.014 and are not eating. Should I keep the SG at this for the time being because when checked with the LFS, they said that 1.014 should do that trick and that’s what they usually take it down to.

[psuj22]

also.. None of the Angels or tangs are full grown adults.. The Imperator is the biggest in the tank and he's just a juvie(changing) and at most 6" long

[guitarfish]

When you did the drop, if the freshwater you added had very low pH (as mine does), you may have dropped the pH too quickly. I always add washing soda ("baked" baking soda) to my freshwater in order to keep the pH stable.

Bringing the pH back up as quickly as you did wasn't good. I wouldn't bring the SG up now - you're making too many changes, too fast. I wouldn't do anything right now, except maybe shut the lights off and let the fish calm down for a while, and hope they'll be OK.

Not giving you a hard time - just giving you my opinion.

[jeffbrig]

You're changing way too many things, WAY too fast for your fish.

Going from 1.020 to 1.014 in 8 hours is too much too fast. I'm not surprised the fish are showing signs of distress.

The fastest (yet still safe) way down to for hypo is to change 20% of the tank volume with RO/DI water every 12 hours. It will take 4 changes to get close to 1.010, then you can fine tune it to the final levels. Also, on the way back to normal salinity, do not change by more than .002 per 24 hour period. It's much harder for fish to adapt to a rise in salinity than a drop (and you're already seeing some ill effects from a rapid drop).

Read more about the process here:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

The second problem is the rapid pH swing. A correction from 7.8 to 8.4 at once is WAAAAYYYYY too much too fast. I would never allow pH to swing more than .2 in a single adjustment, many people suggest you keep the changes even smaller than that. If you need to correct more than you can safely do at once, you can dose more several hours later, or even the next day. I commonly mix a glass of RO/DI with baked baking soda to bring up alkalinity. I dose it in small amounts over the next day or two, while watching the pH meter closely at each addition.

At this point in time, I would stop making changes and give your fish a day or so to settle in. Then, continue slowly lowering the sg down to 1.009. I generally recommend 1.009 as the target, since 1.009-1.010 is the proper theraputic level. If you start at 1.010, any evaporation will raise your salinity out of the theraputic range. 1.009 gives you more margin for evaporation, but you also have to be careful not to go too low.

Also, be aware that hyposalinity is lethal to invertebrates, so it can kill things living on your live rock or substrate, plus any snails, hermits, etc. Make sure you watch ammonia levels closely, or you could end up with a bunch of dead fish.

Best of luck!
Jeff

[starseed]

All good advice.

Most likely the stress to your fish is directly from the Ick. The Ick had time to reproduce and infect their gills. Although you have lowered the SG to 1.010, it will take a little time for the Ick currently attacking their gills to die or drop off. Ick also damages their gills and that can be irreversable.

The way your fish are acting is very common with ICK.

Personally, I would lower the SG to1.009.

The other things people mentioned is importiant too.

You have to balance the PH in the freash water before you add it - the rapid PH shift really stresses fish and can shock them to death, but usually quickly - I still think the major stress is from the Ick itself.

Expect an ammonia cycle from the die off on your live rock too. Run your skimmer and carbon to help.

An SG of 1.009 isn't as stressful to fish as most think - the fish that are floating near the surface aren't really reacting to the low SG or the low PH - it's the ick infection in their gills.

With so many things going on, (PH swings, fast lowering of SG, and Ick) it's importiant to know that is really stressing your fish so you don't drive yourself crazy with worry. It's the Ick causing 99% of their symptoms.

If your fish survive the next 72 hours they will probably make it through the long hypo period.

I had to use hypo and I recommend it in certian situations (your being one of them, I think it was a good choice - you just got hysterical and changed your water paramiters way to fast).

I lost two fish and that was from the Ick, not the hypo. 2 other fish lived fine and happy for 6 weeks at hypo SG levels.

I stopped adding fish though until I finish adding and my corals and inverts incase Ick follows one in to the display.

A lot of people would probably get in a fit about this, but I QT every fish and treat is with copper for 2 to 3 week before adding it to the tank. Even if I don't see a sign of infection. I do this because in 13 years, I have never bought a fish that didn't have Ick. What I found is that within a few days of bringing a fish home, the ick would suddenly show-up with such strength that by the time I started treating with Copper, the poor fish's gills were already damaged and it takes a few days for the parasite to drop off the gills even after adding copper.

I found if I simply treated each fish with copper in QT, the 1 Ick parasite would never explode into hundreds of thousands 2 days latter, infecting ther gills to the point of damage.

Nothing worse than having a fish look healthy one day and awake to find it covered in spots and struggling to breath. IMO, it's pretty hard to same them at that point.

[psuj22]

Thanks to all your responses..
I did a very stupid thing and forgot to check the Ph of the water I was adding yesterday.. Which, I’m now certain, was the cause of the PH droppe, and it was even more stupid to raise it back up quickly as I did, this morning.

The good news is that I found my Yellow tang, still alive, and the Imperator is doing better now.. he’s not hanging out sideways by the overflow anymore. He’s down in the rocks with the other fishes. Unfortunately, none of them are still eating well. What I am thinking of doing is moving them all to a 30gallon with nothing in it..(except some PVC piping for hiding) and to continue the treatment in the smaller tank with HYPO(or maybe even some other medications like copper).. so that I may be able to salvage the live rock and live sand in the display tank. This way.. I don’t have to worry about the ammonia spikes in the tank with the fish as well. Any comments, ideas, or concerns?

[psuj22]

Also… The imperator is showing a lot of discoloration.. pale patches of color all over his body… but I assume this is normal with the stress caused by the SG and PH fluctuations.

[starseed]

SG isn't that stressful to fish - that's not the SG

Quick PH swings are very stressful

Discoloration is a normal sign of stress; either the PH or the Ick.

Be patient with their feeding, sounds like the hypo is working and the major infestation is releasing. Let the fish recover, get their strength back and they will eat.

Hypo should NEVER be started if you haven't fully committed to the whole process - 6 weeks or more.

Moving the fish now will only stress them more and probably kill them (you're still hysterical so don't make rash decisions in that panic).

Your live sand and live rock will maintain it bacteria in hypo, the main thing that makes it live and a natural filter. The small inverts like worms and pods will die off (they probably already have by now). In the future, after hypo, you can get a few extra pieces of live rock, cycle it, and add it to restock those lost critters. You can also buy pods, mini-brittles, etc. to restock as well.

The best thing I thin oyu can do is STOP changing stuff, commit to the hypo, and BALANCE your water paramiters.

Test PH daily to make sure it's stable since it was imbalanced during hypo (if you need to change PH, mix and airate and SLOWLY DOSE over 12 to 24 hours (by the way 7.8 is low, but far from an emergency and did not need to be raised to 8.4 in one hour - raise or lower it by .1 or .2 per day max - 7.9 to 8.4 is OK in a reef).

Test you SG and bring it to 1.009 - check it twice a day, never let it get above 1.010 and try to keep it stable at 1.009

Test you Ammonia every day and look for the ammonia spick if there is any (it's not a garrentee, but expect it and prepair). Running your skimmer to wet and running carbon will help with the die off and ammonia, but if you start to get detectable readings, begin 20% water changes (give make sure you match water temp, SG, and PH BEFORE you do a change). Water changes should be more than enough to get you through the ammonia spike (maybe 2 weeks , 3 weeks max). The nitrite and nitrate cycles shouldn't be an issue for the fish.

You started this hypo, you should commit and balance everything and let the fish recover in hypo. You shouldn't have a problem.

Hypo should not stress your fish - ick, PH and now chasing them around the tank to move them will probably kill one foresure though.

[guitarfish]

If you move those fish now, you will probably lose most of them. Let things settle. Those fish can go over a week without eating, so don't panic.

I do not believe your fish are acting that way all of a sudden because of ich. They are acting that way from the shock & stress of all the sudden changes they've been through. Allow them to recover.

One thing you may want to do instead of moving your fish to the 30g QT is to take the rock out of the display, and put it in the QT. Why? Because then you can avoid the dieoff and resulting ammo spike, and you will also avoid having to chase/catch the fish and put them in new surroundings. Just some ideas to consider.

PATIENCE!

[Mishap]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

Read both of these articles by Steven Pro, both have extremely useful information on hyposalinity and other forms to possibly deal with the ich parasite.