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chuckh
04/19/2006, 11:22 AM
i have a 30 gallon glass tank i want to use for a sump under my 90 gallon. i have been to many links here and most show plans for making your own from scratch with acrylic. i just want to add dividers to mine to make the seperate compartments.

how many would i need to add. i see ones for bubbles and the prot. skimmerm and live rock?

Should i put the skimmer in or out of the sump.

im just a little confused as to what all goes in the sump and how many compartments(dividers) it should have.

can i use plexy glass for the dividers as well. lowes or HD dont have acrylic so they say. they always point me to the plexiglass section.

Thanks
Chuck

Avi
04/19/2006, 12:15 PM
[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7206721#post7206721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chuckh
i just want to add dividers to mine to make the seperate compartments.
how many would i need to add. i see ones for bubbles and the prot. skimmerm and live rock?[/QUOTE

If you pot the skimmer inside the sump, then you'd do well to place baffling that would seperate it from the return-pump. It's be best to use baffling that would stop any micro-bubbles from reaching the return-pump in the seperation.

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7206721#post7206721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chuckh
Should i put the skimmer in or out of the sump.?[/QUOTE

That would really be up to you...you can do it either way. I personally like it outside the sump. You might also consider plumbing the skimmer pump outside the sump because that would lessen heat transfer into the water in the sump and consequently into the reef itself.

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7206721#post7206721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chuckh
im just a little confused as to what all goes in the sump and how many compartments(dividers) it should have.[/QUOTE

I'd section off an area into which the overflow return(s) would bring the tank water...then an area for a refugium where you'd grow macro-algae under an appropriate light...then the area for the sump return-pump and have the skimmer and the skimmer pump plumbed outside. That would require two dividers.

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7206721#post7206721 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chuckh
can i use plexy glass for the dividers as well. lowes or HD dont have acrylic so they say. they always point me to the plexiglass section.[/QUOTE

Yes, you'd be all right using plexi-glass but make sure they are in there securely, which you can do by using aquarium silicon on both sides at where it meets the aquarium glass.

Toddrtrex
04/19/2006, 12:23 PM
Here is a current picture of my 30 gal sump (for my 75)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/30gsump.jpg

This is what it looked like right after I made it.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240040.jpg

If this looks like something you are interested in having, I will gladly go into more detail.

chuckh
04/19/2006, 12:26 PM
Avi, Thanks for the post. now all i need to do is get my tank and light out of layaway. i got all the gear for the tank prior to getting the tank so i wouldnt rush out and buy all the gear after the tank and break the family bank.

my typhoon 3 shoudl be ariving today says its on the truck for delivery. :) been home 3 times and its still not there.

Avi
04/19/2006, 12:53 PM
I'd take Toddrtrex up on his offer. His sump/refugium looks like it's doing great and it's pretty much what I was thinking, though his skimmer's in the sump.

chuckh
04/19/2006, 12:59 PM
todd thanks for the photos. that looks like my sump tank without the stuff in it yet. i sent ya a PM i hope you dont mind. im just not sure on whats all what in there and why? like where the water comes in and dumb things like that

Toddrtrex
04/19/2006, 01:05 PM
Thanks AVI, I am pretty happy with it. Had to go use an internal skimmer. At the time space was an issue -- had to build a seperate stand just for the sump (wouldn't fit under the tank) as you can see in this picture, there wasn't an inch to spare b/t the wall and the tank.
(Ignore the towel that is used to block the fuge light at night --- I am working on getting something better for that -- only a year later ;) )

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/Wholeshot.jpg


Chuckh --- Got your PM, not a problem what so ever. But if you don't mind, I would like to cut and paste it in this thread. Not that I am an expert, but that way others can learn too.

chuckh
04/19/2006, 01:11 PM
feel free todd. wasnt sure if that was ok to do or not that is why i sent the PM. didnt want to look to clueless :)

Toddrtrex
04/19/2006, 01:28 PM
LOL too funny.

Here is the PM
that is what my sump looks like. well the tank I have for it. im a little lost as to what si what in there. maybe its because i dont have my tank setup yet.

looking at the picture after you first built.

going from right to left.

1) 1st section looks like that is the compartment for the skimmer.
Yes, that is the skimmer section, also the inflow section
2) 2nd section looks like it might be a bubble area(not sure, not even sure what thats does i just see it on all the Diy pages)
Yes, that is the "baffle section" Reduces bubbles from the skimmer
3) 3rd section looks like you have you live rock in there. why is that? is that where the algae grows to?
The live rock is for extra bio-filtration. (and I had extra LR in my main tank I wanted to remove) In addition the macro algae I use attaches to it.
4) 4th section looks like that might be where the water comes into the tank. i cant make out what is in there.
The 4th section is the return section -- gets the water to the pump, and than back to the tank. I used an "over the top" method -- didn't drill the sump. Will explain more later.
once again i could be all wrong which i think i am. please if you could kinda let me know what goes where and why its used that would help alot.

liek why the live rock, why do i need a light under there. that kinda stuff. only need a light if you are growing macro algae

I will post some more pictures to explain better.

chuckh
04/19/2006, 01:40 PM
k thanks. that clears a little up. as far as what is where. i asume that the dividers are different size as well correct?

Toddrtrex
04/19/2006, 01:55 PM
I hope some more pictures will help.

This is the skimmer section -- showing the inflow tube.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240042.jpg

My main tank isn't drilled either, I am using an overflow box.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240036.jpg

If you look at the far right of this picture, you can see 2 of the 3 baffles.
The water from the skimmer section goes over one, under the second, and over the third. I will try and take a better picture tonight.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240049.jpg

This picture was taken during the build process, give an idea of how the middle baffle is off the bottom of the sump (only 2 baffles were installed at this point)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5150020.jpg

Hope that clears it up a bit. But ask any questions you have.
Also if you aren't going to drill the sump (for the return) I have some
pictures of how I did that too.

chuckh
04/19/2006, 01:58 PM
looks great. pics help alot. no i dont plan on drilling. not great with power tools. im a network admin aka compter geek. LOL

btw did you use acrylic, glass or plexi glass?

Toddrtrex
04/19/2006, 02:29 PM
I used what ever they sell at Home Depot. Think it was 1/4 inch think.

I will post some pictures of how I did the return part, without drilling the sump, later on tonight. Darn work ;)

Kevinnap
04/19/2006, 05:37 PM
I had a local glass shop cut 1/4in plate glass for my baffles. Cost was like $3 per baffle and after I siliconed them into place, they are very sturdy.

chuckh
04/20/2006, 05:04 AM
i will be out and about during work today so i plan on stopping at the glass store and getting a price on them cutting glass

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 07:50 AM
One thing to remember/consider before getting glass cut, it the bottom
of the sump/tank. The tank I used had a beed of silicone along the bottom, I had to cut off the corners of the baffles for it to fit.

Like this:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5150022.jpg

techreef
04/20/2006, 10:24 AM
Now THAT'S something that would have required another trip to the hardware store. Thanks Todd. Great pointer. I'm building my 30G sump/refugium now too. This thread is right up my alley.

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 10:29 AM
Glad I could help. Amazing how many smokes and a ton of cursing had to happen before I figured out why they weren't fitting right. ;)

jpeloveseoy
04/20/2006, 11:43 AM
bump

Avi
04/20/2006, 12:56 PM
Another thing to remember is to measure the width of the baffles you'll need for the tank that you'll be using. The baffles have to be a little bit narrower than the tank, of course, so they'll fit in and then kept in place with hefty bead of silicon on both sides of the baffle at each place where they meet the tank's sides or bottom. But when you measure, measure at least two heights so in case there's any difference and you have the glass cut, you won't find that it fits on one place but not another. It'll be too late if you're using glass and the tank's uneven and the glass is already cut.

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 12:59 PM
Very good point, I had that problem with my acrylic baffles. Good thing I bought plenty of sheets.

BTW -- This sump has been running for just under a year. I made is similar one (20g High) for my 58g, a couple of years ago, the arcylic baffles are still holding strong.

techreef
04/20/2006, 01:07 PM
Avi,

You lost me halfway through your last post. Are you saying I/we should get several pieces of glass, of slightly varying widths, cut at the same time in order to make sure at least one of them fits?

I never thought to check if the tank was out of square or not. And if it is, jeez, that seems like the variance of the angle, moving from bottom to top of the tank, would be nearly impossible to figure out and get a glass cutter to correctly match the divider glass sizes to.

Can you elaborate on what you meant by "two heights?"

If i find acrylic instead of glass, do you need a band saw to cut acrylic? or can you cut it by scoring it many times w/ an exacto blade?

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 01:12 PM
For cutting arcrylic (or whatever they sell at Home Depot) I used an
exacto knife, scored it about 10 times (if that ) and snapped it.
For cutting slots in it, I used my dremel.

Avi
04/20/2006, 01:40 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7214624#post7214624 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by techreef
Avi,

You lost me halfway through your last post. Are you saying I/we should get several pieces of glass, of slightly varying widths, cut at the same time in order to make sure at least one of them fits?

I never thought to check if the tank was out of square or not. Can you elaborate on what you meant by "two heights?"

I think you did get, tech...I was alerting you to the possibility that the tank you're working with isn't actually on square so you should alert yourself to that possibility before you fabricate the baffles.

By "two heights," I meant that by measuring at more than one height across the width of the tank, you'd see if there are two distances (and so the tank isn't square) and so know to accomodate for that when you fabricate the baffles. In other words, the baffles may or may not be perfectly square depending on the measurements as per above, and you'd be sure to be able to get the whole baffle between the panes of glass of the tank that way. Gee, I hope that's clearer.

chuckh
04/20/2006, 01:51 PM
lol i was measuring my sump tank at lunch and got ticked off. hard to get an accurate measurement with the dang tape measure. its right around 12 wide. i think

i gave up. i need to get a sewing tape measure, or something that is soft and bends easy.

todd, what did you ask for when you went to home depot? what section is it in?

thanks

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 01:55 PM
I didn't ask, (I am a guy, I refused too ;), walked around until I found them ) But, if memory serves they were towards the back, near the doors. They had them one the shelves, all different sizes. I would think if you asked for acrylic sheets they will know what you are talking about.

Avi
04/20/2006, 01:59 PM
I'm going to need a sump for a tank that I'm converting from freshwater to saltwater....after a vacation in May. I was wondering, Todd, if you get any micro-bubbles being sent into your reef or if the double baffle eliminates them completely. Right now in my sump...an Oceanic....there's a hefty stip of foam across the width of the tank between two baffles and that eliminates micro-bubbles completely. Oceanic charges a fortune for what's basically fishtank with two baffles, one of which I actually had to raise up with another piece of glass to accomodate a refugium, and I don't want to spend that much when I can make one that's just as good...or better.

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 02:09 PM
With both my sumps (both same set up, one being a bit smaller) I only had microbubbles in the beginning, while the PVC was coated. The bubble trap on the smaller sump (20 H for my 58) than the other sump, but I still don't have any. Both use an ASM 1GX skimmer. One thing however, since I didn't drain my sump, and used the other the top method, I did get some bubbles from the "T" that I used to prime the pipe. Some Teflon tape on the threads took care of that.

Here is the 20H sump:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/20gsump.jpg

Here is a close up of the "T" I referred too.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240045.jpg

Note: I am running a T2 external pump on both (around 600 gph)

techreef
04/20/2006, 02:21 PM
Avi,

Ah, spot on. I understand you now. Thanks!

Avi
04/20/2006, 03:57 PM
tech...thanks for letting me know that.

And, Todd, I'm now having a little understanding problem, myself. I'm not certain what you're getting at in that second sentence. And, I guess you mean you use the "over the top" method, but I'm not sure what that is. I don't think I'd drill my new sump (it's going to be the sump for either a 75-gallon or 58-gallon tank...I'm not decided on which one to convert , yet. I suppose I'd use wither a 20 or 30-gallon tank for this new sump) so if you could explain what that plumbing is in the second photo in that post is, I'd appreciate it.

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 05:16 PM
Sure, I will do my best to explain it. (if I don't ask away, and if needed
I will take more pictures)
The concept is have the return line start in the return section of
the sump. I will go up to just higher then the height of the sump.
It will "go" across than back down (on the outside of the sump) to the pump. I will post pictures to show more detail.

The bigger PVC in this picture is the beginning of the return line.
(the smaller PVC is for a shelf to hold a bag of carbon)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240043.jpg

The "bigger" PVC in this picture is a check valve. ( I know check valves don't work 100% of the time) The purpose of it is to hold the water in the pipe while I primed it. It also holds the water when the pump is off. I know for a fact that it will hold for over 4 hours.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240044.jpg

Another shot of the "T" with a threaded cap. I used this when I first set it up. With the cap off, I poured tank water into the return line to "prime" it. This way the pump is pulling water. (note I have only had to "prime" it twice -- initial set up, and when I moved the tank, never during a water change)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240045.jpg

The return line is now heading back down (outside the sump) to the pump. I have a ball valve and union for when I want to clean the pump.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240046.jpg

A very blurry shot of the return line going to the pump and than out of the pump back to the tank.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240039.jpg

I hope that cleared it up somewhat, but if it didn't, ask away.

Avi
04/20/2006, 07:36 PM
Hey, I actually think I do understand now. So, in short, there's PVC with an open end, of course, coming out if the return section going up and over to other side of the tank and then down the outside where at the bottom it changes direction over to the pump...Is that correct? Okay, so you used a check valve and you explained why, but would you bother with that if you had to do it over again? Should I do it?

One more question...How did you know in advance, at which level to keep the water in the sump so that it would contain enough extra space for all the water that would go down from the reef to the sump when the pump is turned off before the reef's water leverl goes to the top of the overflow? THANKS again Todd.

chuckh
04/20/2006, 08:07 PM
todd, im getting the concept of the return back to the tank. couple of questions,

1) why is there 3 pipes in the return part of the sump, are the all puting water into the main line to the pump back to the tank?

2) what is that brown looking think floating?

thanks chuck

Avi
04/20/2006, 08:29 PM
chuck, I'm gonna take the liberty of answering...if I get it wrong, Todd'll explain to the both of us: the "three pipes" that you're refering to (with the letters and numbers on them in the photo) are not part of the plumbing configuration...they're part of a stand for a bag of carbon....the "brown" think is the bag of carbon.

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 08:30 PM
Avi, umm, yes, if I had it to do again, I would use the check valve, I feel it makes things alot easier.

As for the water level, to be honest I took a chance, and get very lucky. But, you said you are going to do this to either your 58 or 75 and use either a 20 or 30 gallon sump. That is what I have (58 with 20 H sump & 75 with a 30 sump), so you could use my baffle heights as a good starting point. I do think, however there is a sump volume calculator on the home page of RC.

Chuck -- The other pipes you see are for a PVC shelf I made to hold a bag of carbon (the bag is that "brown" thing you see)
This is a better picture of the shelf

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/toddrtrex/Sump/P5240051.jpg

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 08:32 PM
Dang it Avi, you type faster than me ;)

But at least I included a pretty picture

Avi
04/20/2006, 08:33 PM
Thanks for the explanation....I had answered Chuck's question at the same moment that you posted yours...so it looks like we're making some progress here....thanks again.

Toddrtrex
04/20/2006, 08:34 PM
Anytime, I am glad to help. I got most of these ideas from here, so it is the least I could do.

chuckh
04/21/2006, 05:16 AM
Avi, Todd.

i went to home depot last night and got the acrylic and what not to make the dividers, i put the first one in last night and waited for it to dry.
the first divider after the skimmer is 14'

the 2nd divider is where the water goes under for the bubble trap that is 16' and 1 inch open at bottom for the water to flow through.

the 3rd divider is 14' which is where the comes up from the bubble trap

the 4th divider is 15' that is separating the area where the live rock will go. i will have a piece of 1' egg create to catch debris flowing to return area

when my dad cut the bottom corners of the acrylic looks like he made them a little to big. i should be able to fill them in with silicone. everything else seems fine

thanks for all your help. i hope i do this correctly. ill post pics when done

Avi
04/21/2006, 05:37 AM
Yeah, chuck...the silicon will make a good bond and hold the baffles in place...be sure to let it cure for a sufficient amount of time before filling it up with water. I'd like to see the photos when it's done. I think I'll be ready to build one myself when I get back from vacation. I still have to decide whether it'll be the 58-gallon or 75-gallon so I'm not decided on the size of the sump yet, either. I have a feeling it's gonna be the 75.

chuckh
04/21/2006, 06:04 AM
mine is a 30 gallon sump. the only problem i see having is the bubble trap. the baffels are so close together im not sure how im gonan get my hand down there without alot of cussing.

Avi
04/21/2006, 06:13 AM
I've thought of that problem, and I'm sure there's a way to deal with it...but, I don't know what it might be...maybe Todd, or someone will chime in with a good way to do that...before the cussing...save that for when you get noise from the overflow...but I do know the fix for that.

techreef
04/21/2006, 07:12 AM
Hey Chuck, Avi;

Re: how to silicone the middle bubble trap baffle in place with one of the other 2 outer bubble trap baffles already siliconed in, what about just cutting X length of tubing/small diameter PVC and shoving it onto the spout of your tube of silicone, thereby effectively lengthening the spout? I've never siliconed anything together yet, so i don't know if you have to run your fingertip across the fresh bead of silicone to seat the silicone firmly. Getting a finger in between a 1" gap between baffles could be a neat trick. Hmm...

Toddrtrex
04/21/2006, 07:49 AM
What I did was do the 1st and 2nd baffles first -- No issues with getting my hand in there. (I had the 2nd baffle on a small piece of PVC to keep it off the bottom of the sump). For the last baffle, I put a large amount of silicone down first, and than placed the last baffle in place. The silicone got a bit messy that way, but it worked, and there was alot less cursing ;)

techreef
04/21/2006, 10:55 AM
Todd, i thought that when you silicone parts together, that it takes a bead of silicone on each side of the joint. It sounds like you just put down a line of silicone either a)on one side only of the joint, or b)applied the silicone to the sump wall and then pressed the baffle down into place. How'd you do it?

sttroyiii
04/21/2006, 11:57 AM
Maybe its just assumed, but make sure you get waterPROOF silicone. I already knew this when I went to HD to get it, but I took 'waterproof seal' to mean 'waterproof'. Yeah, my baffles stayed in place for a few hours before the silicone returned to its original (wet) state. I can laugh about it now, lol.

You can do the bubble trap gluing a couple of ways. The first time, I glued the first baffle in place, and let it set. At the same time, I put a small horizontal bead of silicone at the height I wanted the middle baffle to be lifted to. So when I went to put the second (middle) baffle in, I just set it on top of the 1/2" horizontal bead and that kept it sitting at the right height until it set. The second time I had to do this, (read above about non-waterproof silicone) I just laid my tape measure on its side, then glued that middle baffle in place. For the third baffle, I drew a line on the outside of the sump where I wanted the baffle to be. Then I ran a bead of silicone up the side of the inside wall like the baffle was really there. I set the baffle in the sump, then pushed it up against the bead of silicone, then put another bead down the other side. The reason I did it that way was I didnt have enough glue to hold the baffle in place when I added water to the system. The outside bubble baffles have to hold all the water back on each side. In other words, I had my refugium pushing on the bubble trap from one side, and the reservoir pushing on the other side. So the outside bubble baffles have to be really sturdy. The second time I made mine, I put some lengthwise supports between the baffles so that the water pushes on all three bubble baffles at once.

Toddrtrex
04/21/2006, 12:52 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7220523#post7220523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by techreef
Todd, i thought that when you silicone parts together, that it takes a bead of silicone on each side of the joint. It sounds like you just put down a line of silicone either a)on one side only of the joint, or b)applied the silicone to the sump wall and then pressed the baffle down into place. How'd you do it?

For the the baffles that I could reach both sides on, I would put it in place and slicone on both sides of it. But for the last one of the bubble trap, I wouldn't have been able to reach the inside part (not enough room b/t the baffles to fit my hand in)
To solve that I applied the silicone to the sump walls and buttom. I than moved the baffle into place (this way the inside was secure with silicone). I than did the outside part like normal.

Hope that cleared it up, if not, ask away.

techreef
04/21/2006, 02:18 PM
Thanks sttroyiii, Todd. I understand what you're saying. I need to just start building and DO it. I went into this hobby knowing that patience is so important, but right now i've got a room full of cool toys, and nothing is built yet. (Darn job thing keeps getting in the way of my hobby!) I can't wait to start assembling my setup. Gotta determine my lighting kit, get that ordered, and then I can work on my CL manifold. Patience...breaking...down. Can't...hold...on...much...longer.

Toddrtrex
04/21/2006, 02:30 PM
LOL too funny. I know feeling to well. It took me about 10 weeks to actually start building this sump -- had the overflow, empty tank etc. But once I started it one weekend, look out. Finished all in one weekend, and that including building a stand for it too. :)