Magnetic or Electronic MH Ballast? [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

friendtothefish

04/19/2006, 08:26 PM

i went to the LFS today and asked if they had a 250w MH ballast. When I told him that I wanted an electric ballast he said that they dont burn as bright as magnetic ballasts.

Has anyone heard of this?

I am about to buy a bunch of supplies for my 90gal that I am building.

What you guys think?

Friend

HippieSmell

04/19/2006, 08:30 PM

Yup, burn brighter, cheaper, longer lasting. More watts, more par. Maybe shorter bulb life, although the phoenix/aquaconnect seem to handle them quite well. Magnetics work DE bulbs the way they are supposed too, SE bulbs are overdriven.

friendtothefish

04/19/2006, 08:35 PM

Sweet, Cause I want to have dual ends!

Im guessing that DE's run cooler because the are smaller. Would you agree?

pavster

04/20/2006, 08:58 AM

Actually electonics ballasts drive the bulbs to spec and magnetics overdrive them, especially the HQI ballasts. Electronics have better efficiency -- more electricity that comes in goes out into the bulb, instead of heat, magnetic waves as in standard.

fireresq42

04/20/2006, 09:03 AM

electric is the way to go...

moonpod

04/20/2006, 09:06 AM

Actually it depends on if you are discussing DE or SE MH. For SE MH I think that electronics have several advantages. They run the bulbs more effeciently (par/watt), probably you get better bulb life and they allow you to not worry about probe vs pulse start issues.

For DE MH, electronics IMO are not a great solution. The reality is that the standard "250w" DE MH bulb in reality would like to draw something more like 290-300w. That's what the "HQI" or M80 ballast gives the bulb. The "effeciency" of the M80 ballast is equal to that of any electronic ballast and the DE bulbs are really made to be run on that sort of ballast. Electronics tend to "underdrive" DE MH IMO/E and since DE bulb life is plenty good on the M80, I see no reason to harp on that aspect. Now one advantage is that electronics are smaller and lighter so if there are ergonomic issues, they may be a better choice

cthetoy

04/20/2006, 09:53 AM

On Sanjays test database the DE on a M80 ballast is a little brighter in PPFD compared to a SE on an electronic ballast but this is 350 watts versus 250 watts. As you know our electricity rates are very high out here. Also on the same database the DE bulbs with the highest PPFD also has the lowest CCT which means its very yellow. If you want a nice white or white/blue bulb on DE with a M80 ballast then the SE bulb on an electronic ballast will be brighter in terms of PPFD and more efficient.

Thats why you see so many people complaining why their bulbs are more yellow or not as bright with others but it all narrows down to is what ballast they are using

moonpod

04/20/2006, 11:03 AM

IF you compare the M80 ballast to the various electronics and look at DE bulbs only, the effeciency factor actually leans towards the M80 but it's marginal and it's bulb variable. Yes in general the CCTs are also a bit lower however.

However another issue to bear in mind is that the various companies SE and DE bulbs are different. ie the XM 10k bulb. The SE runs on any ballast pretty much greater than 10k. The DE on any ballast runs pretty much well, well below 10k. You can't mix the comparisons b/c it's apples and oranges.

friendtothefish

04/20/2006, 11:03 AM

This is the bulb and ballast I am thinking of getting. What do you guys think? Will it be bright white? I dont want it to look yellow at all...

Ballast : 250W -HQI, Advance Magnetic M80 Metal Halide Ballast
Bulb : Hamilton 10k 250w DE

Friend

moonpod

04/20/2006, 11:16 AM

As I recall that bulb is actually sort of green looking. I could be wrong. It definitely WILL be on the yellower side.

If you want a WHITE 250w DE bulb, go Ushio 14k.

Pretty much everything else that's listed as a 10k is yellow and everything else listed as a 14k is blue.

Other potential players are the Hammy 14k (soft white look kinda "blah" to me but others like it) and the reeflux 10 and 12k.

friendtothefish

04/20/2006, 11:21 AM

Are you sure the Ushio 14k will be white? I am going to have 4x 96w PC actinics as well so I dont want the MH's to blue. I want them to be As wHite as possible...

pavster

04/20/2006, 11:28 AM

Ushio 14k is yellow/white. There is a pic of it in my gallery.

friendtothefish

04/20/2006, 11:38 AM

So how do I get White White? I have a single end Hamilton 10k 175w on my other tank and the color is perfect. Would the 10k hamilton DE really be much different?

pavster

04/20/2006, 11:48 AM

Take a look at Sanjay's charts for the two bulbs, if he has both. Do graphs look identical? Many bulbs are totally different between SE and DE versions, take Aquaconnect 14k or XM 10k for example.

Speaking of AQ14k SE, I think this is the best bulb in terms of spectrum -- very balanced with no major spikes and good distribution, but good luck finding them.

-pavel.

moonpod

04/20/2006, 12:05 PM

fish friend, the DE and SE versions of bulbs are totally different.

manderx

04/20/2006, 12:24 PM

my iwasaki14 running on an icecap is the whitest bulb i've ever seen. 175w SE only at the moment, but it's a *very* attractive alternative to 250w.

moonpod

04/20/2006, 12:30 PM

Oh and a couple of other points:
How clear of organics your water is affects how yellow it looks (lots of fresh carbon and ozone help deyellow water). To me the Ushio 14k is whit/white. I'd like to try the 'saki but near as I can tell it only comes in 175w.

Also IF you are going the DE route the fixture is of paramount importance. If you aren't going with the quality reflectors, ie the SLS ROIII or the PFO new minis, you won't yeild a great benefit with DE

pavster

04/20/2006, 12:38 PM

I don't know -- I run carbon, and Ushio 14k still has a yellow tint to it. Not much, but it's there. I use an electronic ballast (reef fanatics), so maybe that's it. I love the look of the Phoenix myself -- a little on the blue side, but not crazy, kind of a 10 feet underwater look.

The cheap aquarium glass has a bit of green/yellow tint to it, so maybe that's coloring my light also.

moonpod

04/20/2006, 12:43 PM

Well the final issue and why bulb reccs are so hard is that its always in the beholders eye

pavster

04/20/2006, 12:46 PM

100% agree with that! You gotta try a bunch of bulbs and find the one YOU like.

friendtothefish

04/20/2006, 12:47 PM

Oh man, now Im really lost...

There are lots of reasons I want to go with DE, but I do love the way my SE 175w 10k looks...

What shall I do...

I wonder if hellolights can give me some info on what I want to buy?

friendtothefish

04/20/2006, 12:50 PM

Also, whats a good place to get a large reflector that I can cut to size?

I want the reflector to cover the whole top of the canopie so I can mount my 4x PC's and the MH's on one reflector...

Kinda like this...

___________________________

------------------------------ PC
------------------------------ PC
. . . ------- . . . . -------- . . . 2x MH's
------------------------------ PC
------------------------------ PC
___________________________

pavster

04/20/2006, 01:03 PM

What are your reasons to go with DE? I did it just to try something different, and to be honest I am not very impressed. The sockets are fragile, you need a UV filter, the ballast selection is smaller, it feels like the bulb selection is smaller as well, and the overall cost of the setup is higher. Maybe the packaging size is better since the bulb is smaller, but that doesn't really matter if you have a full canopy. So... you be the judge.

pavster

04/20/2006, 01:05 PM

Don't forget that you need a UV glass shield to cover DE MH bulbs from all exposed directions. Not sure how you will attach the shield in this setup.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7214509#post7214509 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by friendtothefish
Also, whats a good place to get a large reflector that I can cut to size?

I want the reflector to cover the whole top of the canopie so I can mount my 4x PC's and the MH's on one reflector...

Kinda like this...

___________________________

------------------------------ PC
------------------------------ PC
. . . ------- . . . . -------- . . . 2x MH's
------------------------------ PC
------------------------------ PC
___________________________

friendtothefish

04/20/2006, 01:09 PM

My reason was solely the fact that I figured the smaller DE bulb would produce less heat than the monster SE bulbs. I had one 175w 10k MH SE in my 40gal and the heat was so bad. I added fans and an ice probe to try to control it. the ice probe did nothing but the fans kept the temp down, but with double the wattage in my PC's and MH's I am worried about the heat. A chiller is not in my budget.

I ended up taking it out because of too much algae growth...

Friend

XeniaMania

04/20/2006, 01:15 PM

What do you guys think would happen running an Iwasaki 14000K on a Hamilton e-ballast?

friendtothefish

04/20/2006, 01:16 PM

I dont want to have to have a shield...

Sounds like I am back looking at the SE, but what about heat???

pavster

04/20/2006, 01:19 PM

Hmmm... you think a DE bulb will run cooler than SE? I strongly doubt it. My 250W DE does a fine job of heating up my 40 gal breeder. A couple of fans evaportate enough to keep the temp manageable. I think efficiency-wise SE and DE are very similar, so you get about the same amount of light/heat for the amount of power you push into them.

-pavel.

XeniaMania

04/20/2006, 01:26 PM

I run a 175w in Hamilton's Deluxe Canopy over a 20, it doesn't heat up the tank at all, but that's because the Aluminum Canopy acts as a windtunnel so the fan pushes the air out efficiently thus not trapping heat. It's when the room starts to get warm that I have to worry. The halide lamp isn't my concern. it's ambient temperature w/ my setup.

pavster

04/20/2006, 01:31 PM

Well, eballasts usually drive bulbs at lower currents than magnetic ballasts of the same wattage, which might be a part of your ability to deal with heat.

The nice thing about halide setups is that they heat the room they are in during the winter. The bad thing is they also heat it in the summer :)

-pavel.

manderx

04/20/2006, 01:41 PM

DE bulbs burn hotter than SE bulbs, but sometimes the glass sheild blocks enough of that heat that they can have the same or maybe less of an effect on tank temps than the same wattage-class of SE. but they also block alot of the light too (15-20%) so i see it as a net loss in most cases. so for what you are saying, i would *strongly* recommend the 175w I14 on an electronic. the only bad thing about it is it will make your existing H10 look horrible and you'll want to swap it out too :)

pavster

04/20/2006, 01:50 PM

Man... now I want an SE I14 as well... I really want to try the Lumenarc reflector... next project I guess.

-pavel.

SunnyX

04/20/2006, 01:51 PM

friendtothefish, If you already own 175W ballasts then why are you goinng up to 250W? The Iwasaki 14K puts out as much PAR and many 250W bulbs.

You really dont need 250W for a 90gl.
You dont need as much lighting as you think, just look at my tank for example:

I run:
2x250W SE 10K XM on ARO Pro Series Ballast(M58) In Lumenarc III reflectors.

3x140W VHO, 2 Super Actinic and 1 Actinic White.

This is on my 225gl(60Lx36Wx24H).
As you can see growth and color is great:

http://www.thesunnyreef.com/DSCN3156.jpg

pavster

04/20/2006, 01:59 PM

Sunny, you are definitely doing something right to get this kind of colors! Stunning!

friendtothefish

04/20/2006, 02:32 PM

SunnyX: Wow, You are making this easier by the minute...

Now I think I might just use the 175w that I have with 2x 96w PC actinics...

Anyone have any ideas on where to get a big reflector? 48" x 24"

Thanks,
Friend

XeniaMania

04/20/2006, 03:34 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7214777#post7214777 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pavster
Well, eballasts usually drive bulbs at lower currents than magnetic ballasts of the same wattage, which might be a part of your ability to deal with heat.

The nice thing about halide setups is that they heat the room they are in during the winter. The bad thing is they also heat it in the summer :)

-pavel.

Actually no, I run a 175W 20K on a magnetic ballast now. I have a eballast sitting around waiting to be converted for the canopy but I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the conversion since I'm also switching over to the Iwasaki bulb.

SunnyX

04/21/2006, 07:01 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7215181#post7215181 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by friendtothefish
SunnyX: Wow, You are making this easier by the minute...

Now I think I might just use the 175w that I have with 2x 96w PC actinics...

Anyone have any ideas on where to get a big reflector? 48" x 24"

Thanks,
Friend

What are the dimensions of your tank?

swannking

04/21/2006, 09:08 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7212894#post7212894 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pavster
......Electronics have better efficiency -- more electricity that comes in goes out into the bulb, instead of heat, magnetic waves as in standard.

Not totally true. It depends on which bulb you are running. The hqi balalst draws more electricity but it gives you much more light. e.g. For the reeflux 10K bulb, the hqi is more efficent than most of the electronic ballasts that Sanjay tested. Just because it draws more electricity doesn't necessary mean it is less efficient.

friendtothefish

04/21/2006, 09:08 AM

W x H x D = 48" x 24" x 18" the inside of the canopie will be about 46" x 22".

SunnyX

04/21/2006, 09:40 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7219870#post7219870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by friendtothefish
W x H x D = 48" x 24" x 18" the inside of the canopie will be about 46" x 22".

Two Spider reflectors with 175WIwasaki Bulbs will be perfect. Just make sure to paint the inside of the canopy white.

If you want superior lighting and coverage than use two Lumenarc mini reflectors.

friendtothefish

04/21/2006, 10:12 AM

Why does the bulb matter? I already have my MH bulb... Its a 10k hamilton.

Also, Why do you say Two spiders? From what you said earlier I though 1 MH 175w 10k and two PC 96w actinics would be enough?

Am I wrong?

With the spiders, what would be the reflectors for the PC's?

I would much rather have one big reflector that is mounted undear all the lights?

pavster

04/21/2006, 10:39 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7219867#post7219867 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by swannking
Not totally true. It depends on which bulb you are running. The hqi balalst draws more electricity but it gives you much more light. e.g. For the reeflux 10K bulb, the hqi is more efficent than most of the electronic ballasts that Sanjay tested. Just because it draws more electricity doesn't necessary mean it is less efficient.

Yeah, you are right. I remembered data for the Phoenix 14k 250W bulb, and the electronic is more efficient (at least judging by Sanjay's data, which does not show watts to the bulb but does have light output). For other bulbs, the reverse is true, again according to this data.

Looking at this data http://www.cnidarianreef.com/lamps.cfm (first table) electronics are more efficent, but the data makes no sense since for electronics the wattage to the bulb (P(Watts)=V(Volts)*I(Amps)) is greater than wattage into the ballast, which cannot happen (unless they produce energy by creating a micro worm hole in the space-time continuum channeling dark matter straight into your bulb).

dkh0331

04/21/2006, 12:32 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7213678#post7213678 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by friendtothefish
This is the bulb and ballast I am thinking of getting. What do you guys think? Will it be bright white? I dont want it to look yellow at all...

Ballast : 250W -HQI, Advance Magnetic M80 Metal Halide Ballast
Bulb : Hamilton 10k 250w DE

Friend

I have three Hamilton 250's over my tank along with 3-65W actinics. They are a bright white -

http://wetwebfotos.com/usermedia/high/5/1695_42.jpg

HTH

David

friendtothefish

04/21/2006, 12:34 PM

So I just found this tank of the month. It is the same 90 gal that I am getting.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/totm/index.php

This guy has way more light that I was origionally going to put.

Why is that?

SunnyX, Your tank seems well lit with a lot less lighting than this guy has on his 90, and yours is a 225???

Is it because he has all SPS?

Do you think I will be good with 2x 96w actinics and 1x 175w MH 10k???

Now that Ive looked at a bunch of 90 gallon reefs. they all have at least 2x 250wMH and 2x 96w actinics...

I am so unsure now...:confused:

I guess Im back to having 2x MH...

SunnyX

04/21/2006, 02:19 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7221183#post7221183 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by friendtothefish
So I just found this tank of the month. It is the same 90 gal that I am getting.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/totm/index.php

This guy has way more light that I was origionally going to put.

Why is that?

SunnyX, Your tank seems well lit with a lot less lighting than this guy has on his 90, and yours is a 225???

Is it because he has all SPS?

Do you think I will be good with 2x 96w actinics and 1x 175w MH 10k???

Now that Ive looked at a bunch of 90 gallon reefs. they all have at least 2x 250wMH and 2x 96w actinics...

I am so unsure now...:confused:

I guess Im back to having 2x MH...

Well my tank is also ALL SPS, except for the Zoos and GSP and it does fine.

The reason I can run my tank with less light is mainly due to my reflectors. The Lumenarc III's I use are amazing, they cover my tank perfectly.

You also have to take into consideration coral placement. I place my corals where they will get the most light. The other corals, Monti's, digi's and such are placed in the lower light areas.

2x175W MH's will be more than enough for your setup.

Just purchase one more 175W setup and you will be fine.

Check out this one- http://www.hellolights.com/aroba15mh.html
Enter eb10po for 10% off.

And here is a reflector for the whole system-
http://www.hellolights.com/ref48in.html

friendtothefish

04/21/2006, 02:32 PM

I DONT THINK THAT THE ONE RELECTOR WOULD BE LARGE ENOUGH... THE CANOPIE IS (Sorry about the caps) 48" X 24"

The reflector is only 48" x 10"

Thanks for the discount code thats great!

Also, I will probably go Magnetic, since my current MH ballast is Magnetic. Why have two different kinds, right?