2yr old White cheek tang going down fast

[Westpat]

Hi,
I have had my white cheek(long white streak on face) for almost two years now. It has always been fine, and had the occasional bout with ich, but never anything that really troublesome. I have been working late(the halides have been off) for the last few days, and I looked at the tank tonight and noticed that parts of his tail were missing and that you could see the tips of his rays on his dorsal and ventral fins. He also looks pale and his deep gray looks very blotchy.

He is breathing heavily and seems to be beating his fins quickly to maintain his position. He stops his movement and then rushes back and forth in the tank. He is not flashing or scraping. He does not have any outward signs or lesions, and he does not look emaciated. He also seemed to be eating this evening.

I have a Blue spotted rabbit, a Occ clown, a male mandarin, a very large engineer goby, and a royal gramma. All fish have been in the tank for at least six months. I did add two frags last night and may have mixed some of the LFS water, but I do not believe that is the problem, since there was a healthy achilles tang in the system they came out of. Plus, I trust them completely.

My salinity is 1.022, pH is 8.2, temp is 80-84F. We did have the power go off this week on two occasions for about three hours each time, but the temperature was fairly warm, so I do not think that caused anything.

That is all the info I have. He is one of my babies, and I would like to save him if possible. I go to work at 5:30 am and get off at 4pm so it will be tomorrow evening before I can treat him. Would a freshwater dip help, and if so for how long. Also, can I treat him in a separate tank with copper if need be, even though he will be going back to my reef tank.

Please advise on my best course of action,
Thanks,
David

[leebca]

David,

Unfortunately, there isn't enough information to go on, despite the fact that you provided a lot of information.

Quite often a fish is slow at succumbing to stress. Being in and out of infection with Marine Ich or any other parasite is life threatening and stressful to the fish, even though it appears to recover and 'handle' it. My White Cheek has been alive now for 11 years in my tank, but then I put it through quarantine according to this procedure:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.htm

and the display tank has not had any parasite in it since 1970.

Over time a fish is likely to survive infections, parasitic attack and other maladies in our aquariums, but it shortens their life. There are two other factors that contribute to their shortened life over time, too. One is food and nutrition. I follow these feeding guidelines:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

The other is water quality that has drifted. We measure a few of the things in our aquarium water, but there are several dozen things we don't measure. There can be signs of water issues, however, like red patches, brown 'algae,' red 'algae' and a host of others. There are the other issues, for instance the source water contained something that we weren't aware of and it is taking its toll on the fish.

The loss of fin and tail matter is often signs of a secondary bacterial infection or poor water quality. Normally, a healthy, non-stressed fish can handle the occasional bacterial bloom, but when they give over to it and begin to loose their resistance to such, they show the signs you've indicated.

You should review your system closely. Observe all other fishes very closely. In short, get to know your tank all over again. See if you've been keeping up proper maintenance like removing decaying matter, detritus build-up, etc. Review the above post regarding nutrition. Have you been providing the best you can?

I cannot see where a freshwater dip will help at this time. Possibly moving the fish to quarantine would be useful if the fish has any water quality issues or may be bothered by any tankmate. If this is a result of weakness and there is in fact a bacterial infection going on, then moving to a QT and treatment with an antibiotic is one approach to fix the symptoms, but you still have to deal with a cure as to what led the fish to this condition.

I think what might prove the best thing to do is a very large water change. Making sure your source water and the water mix is the best-it-can-be. Matched carefully for pH, salinity, and temperature, try an 80% water change.

Sorry I can't be of more help. :(

Good luck! :)

[Westpat]

The last water change I did was about a month ago, and It was about 15g or so. I will mix up as much water as I can tonight, let it sit overnight, and do a large water change tomorrow seeing that I am off from work. I feed a variety of foodstuffs, refugium grown algae, dried algae, frozen food, flakes and pellets.

We have been very busy in the process of adopting three kids, and the truth of the matter is that maintenace has been spotty at best for a while now. I appreciate your advise and links and I will use them as helpful tools.

The fish is still eating and does not seem to be in any more stess then it was last night. I will not waste time with a freshwater dip.

I do have one question, should I change only the water, or should I vacuum out all the detritus. I do not want to stir up any more infectious agents.

Thanks for your help and time,
David West

[leebca]

Don't think of it a stirring up more 'stuff.' It's a bigger advantage to get it out.

First, I would vacuum and then, make the water change when some of the bits of detritus you missed is still suspended. Make sure it goes out with the water you're changing. That would be very efficient use of the water change. After the water change, then clean out filters that have picked up more detritus.

I'd take this opportunity to caution you about judging your LFS system trustworthy. There's much more that can be hidden even though they might have a few healthy looking fish in their system.

:)

[Westpat]

I used my Python and a turkey baster to get out as much detritus as possible, then I did a 35g water change. That is over 50% of the tanks liquid volume if I had to guess, and it was all the container space I had also. I then changed out my carbon tray, which was only two weeks old. I switched my carbon source to Rowa, as it is supposed to leach almost no phosphates, so we will see how that goes. Everything seems to be going well since then.
I am going to try and get some beta glucans from my vet tomorrow, and I will see about getting some selcon as well. I work at PetsMart, and we are now selling the MYSIS, so I am going to start back feeding that as well. I do feed Cyclopeeze to the tank once a week, and I would appreciate you elaboration on its nutritive value.

Thanks for your time and advice, I am looking forward to getting to know my tank all over again!
David

[Rondelet]

Wespat,

Any chance your can post a picture of the affected fish?

This may seem like an odd question, but what are you water parameters and in particular ammonia/nitrite/nitrate? Just a guess, but it sounds like fin burn/fin rot to me which might be due to high ammonia. If this is the case, improving the water quality will go a long way to helping (as suggested by leebca). If not, then moving the fish to Q and considering antibiotic dips would help. I've treated marine fish with similar symptoms (which basically had fin rot) very effectively with a product called Tricide-Neo (I used 5 10 min dips over 3 days). Here is a link (http://www.tricideneo.com/) for more info. Tricide Neo is also available in the US at Pan Intercorp. Their website is www.koi.com.

[leebca]

Cyclopeze is very high in the right kinds of fats. It is a fine source for fat. Once a week is good. It is a pod so fish that eat pods or eat pods almost exclusively will usually learn to eat in our tanks starting on this pod.

When my White Cheek got larger, it couldn't 'see' the Cyclopeze pod. Does yours 'see' it okay? How large is the fish? What I did is make a gelatin bound Cyclopeze that I cut into small pieces so the fish see 'clumps' of it. They like it just as much.

Beta glucan doesn't need to come from a vet. You can get it at most (human) health food stores. It is the same powder that humans take/buy. Most health food stores have it on their shelves.

I use Pythons too. Neat device, yet relatively simple. I use that and a home made device to vacuum out my sump.

:rollface:

[Westpat]

It would be a little hard considering how flighty it is. I saw tonight that my suspicion of HHLE(Hole in Head) in my Royal Gramma is coming true. These problems are of my making, and I appreciate all of the help I am getting in trying to fix this problem.

Two immediate questions:
1)Is HHLE always fatal?
2)Do I need to do another water change in the next few days?

The white cheek is still eating like a horse and is acting normal, it just looks horrible. It is about 4"-5" long from mouth to tail. I have had it for almost two years. It still has most of the yellow on its body, but the black has faded to dull gray. Its dorsal and ventral fins are not looking as ragged, but the tail still looks rough.
One thing that perplexes me is that the jagged tips of its tail look like it has black marks, like it has been singed. This is not along the entire tail, only in a few places. There also some black specks on its body, which I know can sometime be parasites. I think it is actually just where the body color has washed out and it is left over pigment.

My last question is this...
Do I need to put the fish in quarantine? I do not have any good LFS within 60 miles of me, and all we carry at PetsMart is medicine for freshwater fish. I could put it in quarantine, but I do not have the means to treat it at this time.

Thanks to everyone, especially Lee, for their support and time,
David

PS The white cheek would not eat the Hikari mysis, but really worked on the San Fran Bay brine with spirulina. FYI

[leebca]

I'll try to help and give you some reading materials.

On MHLLE:
In order of what I think is most likely:
Vitamin deficiency (A and/or C); Poor Nutrition; see this reference:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228
Chronic Stress
Poor water quality (including high levels of dissolved organic matter and/or nitrate)
Activated carbon (either removing something the fish need or the dust clogging the pores on the fish)
Stray Voltage (is your system grounded properly?)
Retrovirus
Hexamita
Amyloodinium-like dinoflagallate

See this article for more info on MHLLE:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.htm

I've not known MHLLE to be fatal per se but I've known people to turn their backs on their fish and seen the fish decay to death.

With your proximity situation to an LFS I think you should start a medicine chest for your fish. For now, I would place an on-line order for Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes, Maracyn One for Saltwater fishes, formalin, Clout, Praziquantel, and either Pro Tech Coat Marine or StressGuard, or both. If you want a more extensive collection of meds and treatments, add to the above list: Furan-2, Metronizazole, and Furanace. You could substitute Furan-2 with Nitrofurazone.

I recommend you order the vitamins and fat supplements I mention in the post below AND go to a local health food store or pharmacy that carries a large line of supplements and get some beta glucan (and start to use it as noted below):
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

I think the tang would do best coming out into QT and treated with Maracyn Two. Since you don't have the med, you might hold off on that one. I would get a QT up and running for now.

The two fish have some symptom commonality. One is that each condition can be brought on by poor water quality. Another common point is that each condition can be brought on by poor nutrition.

You still have both to tackle. Do another water change. Until you get the meds, I'd recommend a daily water change, and I would lower the specific gravity slowly to 1.018 and watch the pH closely. If you think you have any specimen in your tank that can't tolerate the lowering of the salinity, then forgo this suggestion. When the med arrive, put the tang in the QT and lower its salinity to 1.015 in the QT while you medicate. and treat with StressGuard.

Your description still leaves room for doubt on the diagnosis and a photo is almost necessary at this point in time. We need to see the fish up close and clearly. We need to see the details you've mentioned both clearly and up close.

[Westpat]

My white cheek seems to have all the color back except for the area around the head and lateral line where it is pale, but I guess it is to be expected in this situation.

I have started using Zoe as a food supplement, and I have a question about that. It seems that any food added that is treated with zoe, is followed by my skimmer producing no bubbles at all for the next few hours. I guess it may be the lipids, but I do not know.

Just wondering if anyone has experienced that as well.

Thanks,
D

[Westpat]

It is Zoecon, not Zoe, sorry!

[leebca]

I was wondering about that, since Zoe is the vitamin and shouldn't't contain much in the way of lipids/fats.

When you add food to the tank, it often changes the skimmer's activity. Adding fats will alter the skimmer action.

Once lipids build up on the skimmer's column, the amount of skimming goes way down. It is the reason why industrial skimmers are self cleaning -- fat accumulation retards skimming.

The use of any of the supplement/additives recommended in this post:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

was meant to be the minimum amount needed to be absorbed by the food. If it is frozen food, the amount to add to the frozen bits is just enough to make a moist 'paste' out of it. It shouldn't be dripping off the food when you feed it. That is about the best you can do.