Sump/fuge in a very tight space

[t-dizzle]

Hi everyone,

The stand under my 26-gallon bowfront tank has a frustratingly small cabinet space underneath--only 8-1/2" wide by 26" tall by 13" deep. Right now, I pretty much just keep my lighting timer and a jug of top-off water in there.

I'd love to be able to set up a small sump/fuge in that tight space, to grow some macro and have a spot to hide my skimmer. Has anyone ever used a sump that small? Would a sump that small even make a dent in my system?

T./

[t-dizzle]

Aha! I found a 7-gallon acrylic nano aquarium (complete with light, filter, and plastic plant, no less) that will just squeeze into my stand. Obviously, I won't be using their filter, and I'd replace the plastic plant with chaeto.

OK, so now my questions are thus:

[list=1]
Is a 7-gallon sump/fuge big enough to make a difference?
Can I combine a sump and refugium into a single chamber, or will I have to install baffles and dividers?
Do the benefits of having a small sump/fuge outweigh the extra expense and the risk of leaks and overflowing?
[/list=1]

T./

[dippin61]

well.. i guess it would come down to what you are trying to accomplish with it.

your tank is 26g. your planned sump is 7g. thats 26% of your main tank volume.

55g tank owners often use a 20g sump to accomadate stand size.
thats a sump of 36% of main tank volume. your only 10% off, when you scale down.

also, will you move your skimmer down there? if yes, then that saves space and clutter in the main. how important is that.

do you already have a return pump? if no, then thats more money out of your pocket. although it could be cheaper then youd think. i am currently using a mj1200 as my return in my 55g. i provide my flow by other means. and it works like a charm.

so.. to your questions

1. yup (still 26% of main tank volume)
2. not sure about this one, as i dont run a fuge, but the issues i see coming up are since the drain will be coming in the same compartment, your gonna have a sandstorm from the water coming in.
3. sure! but it depends on how you set it up, and if you take the proper precautions.

[t-dizzle]

26%...that's a good point. Sounds like more volume than I was giving it credit for. I would indeed like to move my skimmer down below, and I'd also love to replace my MaxiJets with a closed-loop setup driven by a single, bigger pump in order to cut down on heat generation in my tank.

I suppose I could look through the DIY forum for tips on compartments for the sump.

T./

[bergzy]

here is my 5g bucket refugium that was designed to grow chaeto only...

no rubble rock, no sand...just chaetomorpha macro with strong flow and intense pc lighting.

i will let my pictures speak for themselves to dispell any notion that a refugium needs to be x% of any tank volume.

the bucket is 5 on a total tank volume of 150g. that is about 3% of tank volume.

here is a pic of the refugium when i just started with a softball size bundle of chaeto. note the light penetration into the bucket which means that there is a very small amount of chaeto to not impede any light getting into the bucket.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/bergzy/BucketFuge.jpg

here is a pic of the bucket fuge at 3 weeks. note that there is zero, absolutely zero light penetration into the bucket. what does this mean? massive upon massive amount of macro growth. what does it mean further? it means that if i never set up this 5g refugium...it is a full bucket of macro that would not have grown and extracted nutrients out of the water.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/bergzy/KIF_0402edit.jpg

the light isnt even on 24 hours...just 16 hours a day on a reverse cycle.

the fuge grows so much macro that i have to constantly trim it back by giving it away to local reefers. i have never charged anyone for chaeto macro because, well, it's like trying to charge someone for pulling dandelion weeds out of their lawna dn trying to seel it to someone.

why 5g? because it is the most readily available bucket at home depot...i could easily and i mean easily use a 2.5g bucket but that would mean that i would have to trim the chaeto out more often...which is related to the smaller size physically but has nothing to do with the volume of water required to make it function.

[bergzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7249934#post7249934 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by t-dizzle


[list=1]
Is a 7-gallon sump/fuge big enough to make a difference?
Can I combine a sump and refugium into a single chamber, or will I have to install baffles and dividers?
Do the benefits of having a small sump/fuge outweigh the extra expense and the risk of leaks and overflowing?
[/list=1]

T./

1) Yes! any increase in water volume is a bonus!

2) Very, very easily my friend! have the drain water flow into something like a wider piece of pvc that is passively fitted over the drain pipe or with a little research...to aid the alternating turbulent flow that refugiums love and require (esp chaeto macro). have the chaeto free floating in the 7g. with a strong pc light to grow it out. skimmer? look into an aqua c urchin. very small footprint in sump skimmer. worried about chaeto clogging up the pump? again, put it in a smaller bucker drilled all over with small holes to allow water in freely while keeping chaeto out. there will always be cost...heck, remember that turning a light on costs money...but there are so many easy easy ways to keeps costs low esp with very cheap yet effective diy with a little thinking.

3) if you plan it out correctly, one should be able to minimize the chances of overflowing your tank and leaks...well, you are going to have to be a little more specific about what type of leaks are you worried about.

[Herbie]

t-dizzle,
Just work with whatever will fit in your cabinet. Its only a 26 gallon tank so a 7 gallon sump will work fine.
If it makes you feel better about it...........check out my 37 Oceanic. I am running a 5.5 gallon sump, so I would have room for my 5 gallon kalk top off in the stand. The 5.5 sump is holding 2 pumps, 1 titanium heater, 1filtersock, plumbing for an phosban reactor that sits outside the sump, a Tunze 9010 skimmer and misc wiring,probs,and plumbing. Its a little tight, but it works for me.
You will be fine with the 7 gallon sump. It will work for your needs. How about a 16 gallon bowfront as a sump ??? That might fit?

Here is a pic of my cabinet with the 5.5 sump. Its in my gallery.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=167236&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500

Later.............Herbie

[t-dizzle]

Ben, that is a VERY impressive fuge! :D

I don't think I've ever seen that much chaeto. Do you even have to top off any more, or do you just let the expanding chaeto take up the extra room? :rollface:

T./

[t-dizzle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7254940#post7254940 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bergzy
have the drain water flow into something like a wider piece of pvc that is passively fitted over the drain pipe or with a little research...to aid the alternating turbulent flow that refugiums love and require (esp chaeto macro). have the chaeto free floating in the 7g. ... worried about chaeto clogging up the pump? again, put it in a smaller bucker drilled all over with small holes to allow water in freely while keeping chaeto out.
I find your ideas intriguing, Ben! A couple of follow-up questions, if you don't mind:[list=1]
I don't understand what you mean by the PVC that is passively fitted over the drainpipe. Could you elaborate?
Would an eggcrate barrier between the chaeto and the skimmer be enough to keep the chaeto out, or should I look into something with smaller openings?
[/list=1] Thanks!

T./

[t-dizzle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7255680#post7255680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Herbie
check out my 37 Oceanic. I am running a 5.5 gallon sump, so I would have room for my 5 gallon kalk top off in the stand. The 5.5 sump is holding 2 pumps, 1 titanium heater, 1filtersock, plumbing for an phosban reactor that sits outside the sump, a Tunze 9010 skimmer and misc wiring,probs,and plumbing. Its a little tight, but it works for me.
Thanks for a great example, Herbie! Between your example and Ben's, I'm all but convinced that I should go for it.

I think the next step is to figure out what size overflow weir and return pump to use, plus putting together all the PVC plumbing. How much flow are you running in your 37 setup? What are you using for a return pump?

T./

[bergzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7256002#post7256002 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by t-dizzle
I don't understand what you mean by the PVC that is passively fitted over the drainpipe. Could you elaborate?
Would an eggcrate barrier between the chaeto and the skimmer be enough to keep the chaeto out, or should I look into something with smaller openings?
[/list=1] Thanks!

T./

1) one of the problems a lot of people encounter is microbubbles in the sump when drain water 'crashes' into the sump. sometimes a micron sock works...but sometimes it doesnt help to stop microbubbles. i am always for easy...very easy in fact but it must perform 110%. yes, i am a very hard and demanding individual! :)

so, imagine you have a 1" pvc drain pipe going straight into the sump...what you can do is slip a 2" section of pipe over it (dont make it higher than the sump itself). make sure you drill a lot of small holes all over it to allow the water to escape. this usually eliminates microbubble problems. if not, use a tall white food safe container that will fit in over the 2" pipe...again, punch holes into it to let the water out.

why 'ease' the water into the sump besides microbubbles? CRASHING water will also tear chaeto apart. it likes turbulent alternating flow...not violent crashing water.

2) eggcrate is great for chaeto barrier. if i had a shot of the bucket inside, you would see that i made an eggcrate cage that is tied together with zip ties. this prevents chaeto from clogging the drain and creating a horrific flood.

3) if you are looking into overflows...avoid the cpr ones...they are very hard (read: impossible) to clean and require an aqualift pump to be run constantly as they will loose siphon with any power outage. the best overflows out there? my opinion only as i never had a tank with an external overflow box is lifereef's. pricey but awesome!
http://www.lifereef.com/frame.html

an excellent but not too pricey submersible return pump? hands down: eheim.
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_pumps_eheim_universal_hobby_powerheads.asp?CartId=

a common rule of thumb is 10 time tank turnover into the sump...which means that if you have 30 gallon total tank volume...you would want 300 gallon per hour draining into the sump with a pump that will deliver a TRUE 300 gph back to the tank....you have to take head pressure height into account. head pressure is the height that the pump must go against gravity to pump water back into the tank. for example...a 350gph pump will 'claim' to pump 300gph at 4' of head. this is just a hypothetical pump. i havent looked at which pump does this...nor do i know your 'head pressure'.

10x tank turnover is just a rule of thumb and can mean jack squat. my 180g has about 8x tank/sump turnover but i have about 30x tank turnover because i use in tank circulation via seio's and maxijet ph's. your in tank circualtion can get very exotic and expensive but again...where does the 'extreme' end? i just dont play that game.

hope this was moderately helpful! :)

[t-dizzle]

Thanks for all the info, Ben! The Lifereef overflow box looks really great, and for not that much more than the CPR. I plan to keep at least one PH in the display tank for good flow, so I doubt I'd need the whole 300 GPH. I'm not opposed to it, though, as long as it's safe and quiet.

I'm having a little difficulty visualizing the perforated 2" pipe at the end of the drainpipe. I assume it's meant to disrupt the laminar flow of the 1" of water so that it gently squirts out of a large number of smaller holes than crashing down all at once?

My head is swimming with the possibilities...cleaner looking display tank, more water volume, macro fuge, plus lots of added flexibility.

THANKS!
T./

[bergzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7257013#post7257013 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by t-dizzle
I'm having a little difficulty visualizing the perforated 2" pipe at the end of the drainpipe. I assume it's meant to disrupt the laminar flow of the 1" of water so that it gently squirts out of a large number of smaller holes than crashing down all at once?
T./

yep! the perforated pipe is to break up violent laminar flow!

if you really really really want to have your head swim with ideas...

i have just started using the zeovit system and methodology for having a phenomenol, and i mean phenomenol, reef system.

water clarity (read: transparent), orp reading, increasing coral coloration, observed improved coral health in polyp extension have been nothing short of breath taking.

in this system...

you will need very little live rock, no macro for nutrient absorption and a spectacular thriving reef!

BUT:

an extreme word of caution...

get the hang of having and maintaining a normal reef before you attempt zeovit. it is attention intensive, maintenance intensive and requires full understanding of every reef parameter with the ability to control these to very small tolerances.

keep us updated on your progress!

[t-dizzle]

Ben, you had me until "maintenance intensive." :lolspin:

I think I'll spend a year or two learning the ropes before tackling anything as intensive as Zeovit.

I'll definitely post more as my reef takes shape.

Thanks a lot for your help!

T./

[Herbie]

t-dizzle,
Do your self a favor and get the Lifereef overflow box.........best/safest one.........hands down. Not the cheapest, but the quality is second to none. Do not get a CPR overflow, just search about the CPR's, and you will see what I am talking about....like Ben said! I am using a Lifereef overflow box that Jeff at Lifereef slightly modified for my overflow system. He Just put in an extra bulkhead in it,up top, to use as an emergency overflow.
I am using a completely silent "siphon" overflow system..........it may be a bit complicated for your first tank........but it does run silent and very "smooth" with no crashing water or bubble problems.
The pictures of my sump are at running flow...........notice how smooth and bubble free the water appears. There are no bubbles inside the filtersock either.Its VERY quiet.I have my pump dialed back for now untill I get a second Sea-Swirl hooked up to my tank. Its flowing aprox 600gph now. It will be a bit higher after I install the 2nd sea-swirl........approx.......700gph.
If you want to read into how this system works...........here is the link.........be warned it may take you a WHILE to get through it!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344892

I have found, what I feel is the perfect submersible pump "for me". I have tried many.........mags,rios,ehiems, etc,etc,etc. I was looking for a pump that was small, QUIET, moderately powerful and adjustable if possible. I am using the best pump I have ever tried. Its a Tunze submerible master recirc. pump........# 1073.030. Its small.........VERY quiet (quieter than any ehiems I have used) and has an adjustable flow rate of 0-800 gph. Its perfect for me. I am suprised its not more popular..........buts its expensive..........about $130. !!! Here is a link.........

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=TZ1711

Hope I could help a little...........good luck.
Later.............Herbie

[t-dizzle]

Wow, lots of information. Thanks, Herbie! I'll chew on it tonight and start drawing up plans.

T./

[SteveOhh]

>Originally posted</a> by bergzy


3) if you are looking into overflows...avoid the cpr ones...they are very hard (read: impossible) to clean and require an aqualift pump to be run constantly as they will loose siphon with any power outage. the best overflows out there? my opinion only as i never had a tank with an external overflow box is lifereef's. pricey but awesome!
http://www.lifereef.com/frame.html



I've never had a problem w/ my CPR overflow & I don't have an aqualifter pump on it. I turn my return pump off every feeding & it ALWAYS maintain suction when I turn the pump back on. Key is to run an airline from the airline connector on the overflow to the sump. That way when the overflow attempts to pull air into the line, all it is pulling is water from the sump. Got that tip from a LPS & it's worked like a charm.....

Steve :D