Zoanthid's Toxic? Perhaps not...

[clownfish4u]

Funny story, actually. Day before yesterday I was re-arranging the live rock and live sand in my tank. Before doing this, however, I took my Siphon-Kleen Gravel cleaner apart and used the flexible hose part and my powerhead pump to drain the water out of my reef tank. It's got some zoanthids, star polyps, and mushrooms. The mushrooms make my hands go slightly numb, and I do everything short of taking a shower after handling my zoanthids or sticking my hands in the tank. I've heard countless stories of how poisonous and toxic they are.

So I get done with the water change and clean everything up and set the hose off to the side. The next day I purchase another 10 gallon and 10 gallons of RO water from my local grocery store. After I get home and fill the tank up, I realize that there is some black particles floating around in the tank. It looked to be strips of plastic. I figure at this point I need to drain the tank and clean it up a little more. Trying to figure out how I can get the water out, I realize that I had the flexible hose from the gravel cleaner. After trying to start a siphon, which I was unable to do, I decide to try what I had saw others do countless times, and that was suck on one end of the hose until the water started coming through the hose, and then turn it down to create the siphon. After placing the hose in my mouth, I never realized how bad synthetic salt tasted.



Then it hit me... :eek1: <--- my face.


I had used that hose to clean the reef tank out earlier!! I had heard about the most dangerous part of keeping these corals was getting the toxin in your mouth. By this point I am almost close to having a panic attack. I couldn't believe that after numerous people telling me to be careful, and swearing that I would never let anything like that happen, I did what I did.

Needless to say, I suffered no ill effects. As you have probably noticed, I AM here at Reef Central, still posting away. :bum:


I don't think they are THAT poisonous, but who knows. Maybe I had a lucky experience...

Just a thought. ;)

[Potsy]

It's the palythoa and protopalythoa species that produce the toxins. You're safe with zoanthids.

[PatrickJ]

I heard some sinularia corals are pretty toxic.

[Paintbug]

just so you know zoos and palythoas have Palytoxin! its one of the most toxic natural toxins known to man. dont take it lightly!
http://www.zoanthids.net/zoanthids/agression.htm

[clownfish4u]

I'm just surprised that it actually wasn't as bad as I thought it was. It's presumed that captive bred zoo's actually lose their toxic capabilities just like poison dart frogs raised in captivity. I feel very lucky, but at the same time, I'm not sure how over exaggerated the subject is, you know?

[sttroyiii]

Ive touched my green speckled mushrooms, my fuzzy mushrooms, my red mushrooms, and my zoos which I think are mean greens, and I have never felt any numbness. I had to move my zoos the other day, and cut through the zoo-skin where they had tried to attach to a neighboring rock. No gloves, no numbness. I washed of course, but not until I was done with the tank. My cuticles are usually torn. Maybe you are right about captive bred zoos.

[AdidaKev]

I once handled mushrooms and zooanthids for about 20-30 minutes one day (I work at an LFS) without gloves. I knew that was a bad idea, but I was in a rush. Anyway, about 10 minutes after I was done, my hands went numb, I started getting hot flashes, and my vision went blurry. Needless to say, hurry or not, I now use gloves every time I handle zoos and mushrooms.

I agree with Paintbug in that no one should not the toxin issue lightly! You are extremely lucky that nothing happened to you.

[Amphiprion]

Your instance was a good one. Palytoxin is excreted by these animals, whether the small amounts affected you or not. I would still exercise caution, seeing as how palytoxin is one of the most poisonous non-proteinaceous toxin known.

[Cutiewitbooty]

I handle mine as little as i can, but if i have to move them i don't use gloves. I just make sure i was my hands extremly good after.

Theonly reason poison dart/arrow frog aren't poisonous in captivity is in the wild they eat an insect that is poisonous and that poison is built up in them. In captivity they are not able to eat that insect.

[Sheol]

I've had numbness in my hands that lasted for over two weeks after handling both zoa's & a mushroom polyp. I will no longer take chances. BTW, when my pain receptors switched back on, I found about two dozen paper cuts on one hand! Oucch!

Matthew

[Amphiprion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7265455#post7265455 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cutiewitbooty
I handle mine as little as i can, but if i have to move them i don't use gloves. I just make sure i was my hands extremly good after.

Theonly reason poison dart/arrow frog aren't poisonous in captivity is in the wild they eat an insect that is poisonous and that poison is built up in them. In captivity they are not able to eat that insect.

Yes. Actually, blue ringed octopus and pufferfish are not poisonous either, unless they are exposed to the bacterium Pseudoalteromonas haloplanktis tetraodonis. The saliva and visceral tissues (respectively) happen to be inviting to this bacterium, which is an amazing adaptation.

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7265503#post7265503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprion
Yes. Actually, blue ringed octopus and pufferfish are not poisonous either, unless they are exposed to the bacterium Pseudoalteromonas haloplanktis tetraodonis. The saliva and visceral tissues (respectively) happen to be inviting to this bacterium, which is an amazing adaptation.

This is the same thing with Clams and toxicity. They have to be exposed to a bacterium in order to carry Brevetoxin. This is usually carried in on Red Tide.

As far as those that are concerned about PTXN, know that though you are touching these animals, the stress is what makes them secrete this. It then has to enter your bloodstream through either an open wound or a mucous membrane such as if you rubbed your eyes, licked your fingers, or picked your nose. BUT, Zoanthus species and Corallimorphs do contain Nematocysts. These are cells that inject a small amount of venom into your skin. And the venom injected by the nematocysts is different than PTXN. If you touched a Palythoa colony that was known to produce PTXN, you will actually be hit with their nematocysts. But the aggitation will make them secrete the PTXN. If you go back and touch them again, then it will be on your skin. Then you have to take the infected area and place it on a transmittable area such as the examples mentioned above.

Also, PTXN was first discovered in a lagoonal pool in Hawaii where Palythoa species grew. From there, there have been conflicting reports about it moving to other Zoanthus species. This could be because it is transfered from Zoanthus sp to Zoanthus species through a bacterium in similar ways as Tetrodotoxin is carried to the Blue Ring Octopus.

Basically, only some species are actually toxic. But, because of the roaming bacterium "infecting" others with the ability to secrete PTXN, then if you had a Zoanthid only tank and added a frag that carried the PTXN bacterium, then over time, all your Zoanthids could eventually be capable of secreting it as well. This is when you encounter a problem. If you aggitate your tank often enough through fragging or moving stuff, then it will be released into the system. But because this toxin is so complex, it does not readily break down and will remain in a closed system such as our aquariums for a fair amount of time. This is a good example of why water changes are so important. If you had an extreme case, the density of the PTXN in your tank could get so high that putting your hand in your tank with a cut on it could literally be deadly. And with enough PTXN, you can die in literally five minutes. Just imagine a Zoanthus specific tank being stressed because of a mechanical malfunction such as a heater sticking on or some serious stray voltage. All the colonies will release a mucous to help protect themselves and be releasing copius amounts of PTXN into the system all at once.

[Paintbug]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7265503#post7265503 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Amphiprion
Yes. Actually, blue ringed octopus and pufferfish are not poisonous either, unless they are exposed to the bacterium Pseudoalteromonas haloplanktis tetraodonis. The saliva and visceral tissues (respectively) happen to be inviting to this bacterium, which is an amazing adaptation.

that explains why you may see a blue ring octopus for sale from time to time. interesting. what size tank do those need?? :D LOL it would be cool to freak some of my friends out that what nature show and know what they are.

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7265568#post7265568 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paintbug
that explains why you may see a blue ring octopus for sale from time to time. interesting. what size tank do those need?? :D LOL it would be cool to freak some of my friends out that what nature show and know what they are.

Unfortunately, the bulk of BRO are wild caught. They are almost immidiately exposed to this bacterium and are effectively venomous. Even if you got a captive bred one, it would have to go through many generations and many new tanks in order to assure that none of the bacterium is left. Though they are technically not venomous until they are "infected", the chances of them being venomous are too great. I can guess a good 95-98% are venomous by the time you get them.

[Shawnts106]

DARN!!! Just when all the Zoathid Terorists had an eliment of surprize.... Someone BUSTED US!! arrrr me mateys!!! haha

Just kidding around, seriously I am in NO WAY a terrorist and do not plan to be ever...

On a serious note, I dont think the toxins should still be in the hose of you washed it out, or diluted it enough....

I just was doing work in my tank and had a bad cut on my finger(s)... and was rearranging palythoas like mad... and relized what the MESS I WAS DOING... I scared myself ... well... lets just say I suddenly didnt have to use the restroom! haha..jk again...
anyway.... I did notice my finger was hurting and swelled a bit..

Kinda like a fireworm sting... but I didnt get sick... although did suffer from a stomach ache that night... wether it be from the Palys or not.. Im not sure...

But after I relized what I was doing I went straight to the tap, opened the wound a bit and flushed it out for a few mins....
Wether that helped or not.. I do not know..

Just wanted to share my experience...

g-day.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Let me reiterate. You are more likely to be stung by their nematocysts than you are to get PTXN. PTXN is actually quite rare. But, the seriousness behind it shouldn't be taken lightly of course. Please read the information below.

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

Excerpt(s)

Symptoms: Angina-like chest pains; asthma-like breathing difficulties; tachycardia (racing pulse); unstable blood pressure with episodes of low blood pressure; hemolysis; electrocardiograms show and exagerrated T wave.

Onset of Symptoms: Rapid, with death occurring within minutes.

Inactivation: Palytoxins are stable in seawater and lower alcohols

Source: Palytoxin was first isolated from the soft coral Palythoa toxica. Several species of Palythoa are used in aquariums, but do not produce the toxin. Originally, it was only found in a single tidal pool on the island of Maui in Hawaii and native Hawaiians used to coat spear points with a red seaweed from the pool. Toxin-containing corals appear to be randomly and sparingly distributed throughout the South Pacific and there is now a school of thought that suggests that the coral is simply concentrating the toxin made by a dinoflagellate (a small single-celled organism) called Ostreopis siamensis.

Agent Properties: Palytoxin is the most toxic natural product known, it is estimated that the lethal dose for a human is less than five micrograms. Supplies are extremely limited as it is only found at low concentrations in the corals that do contain it, although this may change if a microbial source is found. Palytoxin is an incredibly complex molecule with 64 stereocenters and a backbone of 115 contiguous carbon atoms. Most chemists would believe it to be beyond the capabilities of modern chemistry to make it in the laboratory, but this was managed in 1989.

[Amphiprion]

That information is not entirely accurate. Maitotoxin, also produced by a dinoflagellate, is more toxic than its relative, palytoxin. Both of these, however, do not include nonprotein toxins, in which case the botulin toxin from Clostridium botulinum would be the most toxic natural substance to date. While it is an LD50 with palytoxin, it is considerably more toxic--only a few molecules' worth is enough for death. For Palythoa species, I would suspect that Ostreopsis siamensis is not only more dispersed than the coral, but the coral has to actually integrate it as well.