question for y'all

[colby]

Hello all..I was wondering if all of you guys who have experience breeding and selling could give me some information. As I am trying to decide if it would be worthwhile to expand my breeding operation to start selling fish. If you could please tell me...have you made a profit? If so how much? What kind of fish did you sell and how many? Any advice at all would be greatly appreciated. Thanx in advance.
Colby

[Dman]

expand my breeding operation to start selling fish.
What are you breeding now???
have you made a profit?
define profit, prophet maybe, profit? hard to tell.

[colby]

Dman...only Ocellaris currentyl...I am in the process of formin a pair of Black Ocellaris..and I have a good amount of experience breeding Hippocampines...however I currently do not maintain any and furthermore, I dont think they would be a financially beneficial species to raise, but then again I am not sure so I am asking for y'all's advice...thanx
Colby

[mwp]

Colby, I kinda keep an eye on the Seahorse.org classifieds...as well as Syngnathid.org - it seems to me that there's a pretty good market for Hippocampus that are tank-raised..word has started to get out. I haven't seen or been able to locate anyone selling wild seahorses (not that I'm looking for WC, but I am looking for more barbouri).

Running the African Cichlid Hatchery we didn't make enough to make it a full-time business, even for one individual. I think the real key is to find something that you can produce consistently and that has a high retail value...no doubt RTC is doing something right when they can sell all their C. resplendens at $950 a pop ;) You could always try supplementing the fish income with coral frags..

HMM..

MP

[colby]

hmmmm...so maybe I should breed more seahorses....is it reasonable of me to think I could sell 50 Reidi and 50 Erectus a month? How about Ocellaris? Black Ocellaris?
Also...what price should I try and sell them for?
thanx
Colby

[mwp]

Well Colby, I guess I should maybe share my orchid experiences - for a few years after getting out of the aquarium industry I didn't run any tanks but instead raised and sold orchids (www.SlipperOrchid.com, another hobby) - I did it as a weekend and evening thing mostly and in the first year turned $30k in sales. I had NO LIFE. Had I not been reinvesting so much into broodstock I would've turned a fair profit though.

Again, the key was finding items that I KNEW there was demand for, but also making sure there was enough EXPOSURE. I sold retail...sure I'd supply plants at a wholesale level but I did it only in BIG quantities...i.e. the comparison in the aquatic industry is that I wouldn't sell 6 fish to a retail shop, nor would I sell 6 plants to a wholesale orchid client.

I had a good selection, something that as a fish breeder can be hard to do. MOST of my retail sales were via eBay (and yes, I've actually purchased CORALS from vendors there, but never fish, there aren't very many posted to begin with); that got me great exposure...as an advertising venue eBay actually is one of the best out there for good ROI, but that's just my opinion. What would happen though is that folks would maybe win ONE auction out of the 10 or so I had listed, but they'd then ask what else I had to offer. "CHA CHING" as they'd say...they might buy another plant or two, or 10, from my website.

Another big thing that allowed SlipperOrchid.com to grow so quickly was that I focused on QUALITY...i.e. all my orchids were HAND PICKED from the area growers...you got the best of the 50 they had. Because I was hand picking from the big online retailers, I was beating them on quailty hands down. I started all my listings at a price I would be happy with, and when some of them sold for double or triple, well hey, that's what the market value was. So as a reseller quality was the kicker. It all came to a screaching halt when the orchids contracted a pesticide resistant strain of mealy bugs that to this day I haven't been able to fully eliminate. I shut down sales and haven't really brought them back online since then...once I have my orchids in a greenhouse vs. being an under-lights grower, I'll probably start sales up again...a few years from now at least.

Selling my offspring orchids, that was another matter. Often I had to drop my prices close to wholesale if I wanted to move everything I had fast enough. The difference here was that I had TONS of quantity but not much variety. Can you find 25 people a month to purchase 2 seahorses of a given species from you? Just a guess, but it MIGHT be difficult, especially at first. The reputation you build on those first crucial sales will be key, and if you let quality or customer service slide you'll feel it REALLY QUICKLY and the damage is difficult to repair.

The other downside (when comparing to a different "commodity" like orchids) is that folks don't usually have TONS of fish...orchids developed a lot of repeat clients whereas once someone has 2 or 4 of your horses, they may very well be done purchasing from you for several years.

I guess in the end, focus on quality, focus on fish that have high retail values and are in demand and find good sources. Deliver a good VALUE for the quality, and you're most of the way there. Go above and beyond for people and it will pay off (i.e. Dan @ Seahorsesource.com).

Marine fish breeding, at least for me and considering the current market, seems to be something that you should go into not really worrying about the profits, at least to start out with. Use what money you can generate to pay for your efforts and grow organically...don't quit your day job ;) IF/WHEN wild fish imports are reduced/eliminated, the tide will change dramatically.

Again, one last thought, get some good corals going as well...4 tiny frags of Woods Polyps, aka Giant Feather Anthelia, sold for $10 each to a LFS. Good Xenia cuttings around here can get $10 each too at our LFS's. Good GSP, you could probably never have enough if it's an exceptional strain. Heck, macroalgaes - I can't think of how many WTB posts I've seen for rufugium materials. Stomatellas (great little snails that breed freely and easily and can get you $2.50 a pop and eat all nusiance algaes). You could easily use breeding systems to raise both broodstock and these nutrient scrubbing organisms that not only cut down on your workload and salt use, but generate money themselves! Grow out Tridacna Clams from those cheap minis and in the process keep your nitrates way down...the ideas are really limitless.

MP

[mwp]

One last annecdote from my past experiences and then I really need to watch the leptacanthus to see if he's going to release his brood tonight (or tomorrow night).

There are some fish that are always in demand and good quality is always hard to find. I.e. FRESHWATER ANGELFISH IN CHICAGO. The angels that you get from the FW Wholesalers are usually garbage coming over from Asia that doesn't last long in our typical water conditions. As a purchaser at 4 different retail LFS way back when, I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to purchase angelfish from local breeders provided the quality was there.

It would take a while to try someone out...I wouldn't go head long into it without giving them a trial first. Some breeders just didn't produce good fish (i.e. short fins, deformities, general lack of quality)...never even considered purchasing again. Could have been bad broodstock or poor raising, but it didnt' matter, they didn't make the cut.

Those that brought in good dime to nickle size fish (body size) in good quality that held up in regular tap water conditions got the business....pretty much they knew that I would buy a LOT and heck, if they needed to unload, I was more than willing to accomodate them. I KNEW the fish would sell, the price was fair and the quality was where it needed to be.

If we had ever been able to find someone like this in the Chicago area that was doing DISCUS in tap water that weren't total crap we'd have been buying ALL OF THEIR PRODUCTION.

So, looking back on all the fish you see at the LFS, as so many folks here can tell you, the single one fish you cannot go wrong with as a marine breeder is the good 'ole NEMO. I've kept A TON of different saltwater fish in my tanks since I started 19 years ago...the only species that I've purchase 4 or more of in the course of my hobby is A. occelaris ;)

FWIW,

MP

[colby]

wow..thank u for the detailed explainatin and the suggestions. I think that I am mainly going to focus on clownfish for now because I feel that if I could get the business of a wholesaler or two in addition to a few lfs's I could probablly move around 1000 Ocellaris, 300ish black ocellaris and 300ish onyx percula a month...which according to current market value should result in about....

Amphriprion Ocellaris-1000@$5 = $5000.00
Amphriprion Ocellaris (Black variety from Darwin) - 300@$15 = $4500.00
Amphriprion Percula (Onyx) 300@-$15 = $4500.oo



but...even though that seems like a reasonable number of fish to move the monthly gross seems waaaayyyy to good to be true...so I am trying to find the miscalculation...
colby

[colby]

..so what do you guys think of those numbers? Where is my miscalculation? Is that an unreasonable number of clowns to try and sell each month between a few wholesalers and a few retailers?

colby

[stykthyn]

that is a lot of fish to move in a months time, while not unreasonable that is still a lot. Are you selling online, or to local stores? Are you going to be a one man operation?

[Dman]

Ah, it all comes down to three things then (provided you can grow them out successfully)
1. Location
2. Location
3. Location
1000 O's a month might work in CA or a few other states, Might not happen in MT.

[jnowell]

The problem I see with your numbers is that you are assuming almost no loss, you said you had one breeding pair of A. Occ. which "might" bless you with 1000 EGGS in a month....turning those eggs into 1000 sellable size fish is quite another story IME.

Also, your math is correct, but now substract salt, RO/DI filters, food, water and electricty bills, meds, and TIME. If your math works out like mine, you are now the proud recipient of a 25 cent per hour 100 hour a week job :D

I do H. Kuda, A. Clarkii - and raise every batch of both, no slacking. The seahorses and clowns both give me 2 broods a month of about 200 fry each. The numbers I get to sellable size average about 30% of that, sometimes more, sometimes less.

Jason

[colby]

Well luckily for me I live in California and I have good relationships with a few lfs and they are going to help me with getting the business of the wholesalers. I do realize that the overhead would be significant as well as the time required. However according to the calculations I have done the "projected" monthly gross of $16,500 is far more than the cost of production. As far as the issue regarding # of fry I will have available to raise, I am not assuming no loss. I do realize that I presented myself as only having one pair of Ocellaris but I am in the process of setting up two more pairs, I feel that three productive pairs of Ocellaris would provide me with enough offspring I should be able to achieve 1000 saleable fish a month....what do you guys think? Am I overestimatiing?

I would like to eventually move to the direction of online sales, however I feel that my best bet wuld be selling to wholesalers and retailers in my local area as I could cut down on expenditures such as shipping.

Finally I think I will be successful because like the rest of you, I love this hobby. I would just like to turn it into a business potential.

So in light of this any new information or advice?

Also will anyone else who is currently raising and selling fish give me their advice based on their experience?

Thanx
Colby

[mwp]

In all my years running the Cichlid hatchery which serviced 20+ local stores we NEVER grossed $16.5k in a month, and that was with 200+ species on the list including a lot of fish much rarer than clowns and servicing the top 4 shops in the Chicago market. (edit - I should also mention that we ran over 400 tanks, including at least 100 30 gallons... and many larger tanks + we also had a grow-out arrangement with an off site third party).

Honestly, 16.5k gross per MONTH seems nothing shy of totally unrealistic, especially when you're selling just 1 species, but then again I'm not familiar with the CA market.

There was a good article on raising clownfish in your basement a few months back in Coral Magazine from someone who's been doing it for 14+ years (article is by Joseoph Lichtenbert) - while Joseph doesn't lay down hard numbers, he does lay out his entire system and has raised 165,000 in the last 14 years...averages out to 11,785 per year. Do the math on that, and if they were all ocellaris selling at $6.50 per fish, it averages out to gross sales of $6383 per month. That's with 600 square feet, 20 10's, 26 20's, producing around 300 fish per week. And yes, $6.50 per fish, because when producing only one kind of fish, and producing that many, the only realistic way to move them all is at the wholesale level.

FWIW,

MP

[mwp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7351213#post7351213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by colby


Amphriprion Ocellaris-1000@$5 = $5000.00
Amphriprion Ocellaris (Black variety from Darwin) - 300@$15 = $4500.00
Amphriprion Percula (Onyx) 300@-$15 = $4500.oo


$15 per Onyx Percula seems a bit too high unless you're going to raise them to the point where the black starts coming through...everyone knows that perculas are the ugly ducklings and look like "junky occelaris" for at least the first 6 months. Maybe $10? This is also a matter of "Trust" as I mentioned earlier when discussing purchasing anglefish from private breeders...the quality needs to be READILY apparent to get the price...difficult with onyx percula (even though I have a pair I've been waiting on to spawn since last year).

OF course, slice ALL of those prices in half AGAIN if you're going to be selling to a WHOLESALER vs. LFS.

FWIW,

MP

[mwp]

One last note and then I'll bow out and worry about our GBG larvae - you should definitely consider reading this thread as well (if you haven't already) - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=778825

MP

[mwp]

Ok, I just couldn't resist..if you can crack the Mandarin nut (which I'm working on) that seems like an entirely different ballgame...imagine the value of mandarins that are captive bred and come to the LFS eating frozen foods.

One thing you haven't mentioned Cobly, are you thinking about making this a FULL-TIME real gig, or just growing your hobby a bit?

MP

[colby]

Ok, I totally agree with y'all that $16,500 a month seems totally unreasonable, which is why I came to aske for help. Th prices I quoted however are the quotes that I recieved from a lfs...grantedd that was only one store...moreover my goal is to sell primarily to wholesalers and being that it seems within reach to sell that many fish....so if I can sell that many fish for that price it should result in the projected proifet...I have done a basic cost analysis of such a hatchery and I will post it when possible, however anyone here who could give me some ideas of costs of production that I amy have not thought about I would appreciate it. Thanx.

Colby

[mwp]

Ok, I totally agree with y'all that $16,500 a month seems totally unreasonable, which is why I came to aske for help. Th prices I quoted however are the quotes that I recieved from a lfs...grantedd that was only one store...moreover my goal is to sell primarily to wholesalers and being that it seems within reach to sell that many fish....so if I can sell that many fish for that price it should result in the projected proifet

Ah, but you can't sell Ocellaris for $5, Black Ocs for $15, to the WHOLESALERS...those prices you were quoted were what the LFS would want to pay for them, and thus what the wholesaler would want to sell them for. So, at best, I'd figure $2 per Ocellaris, maybe $6 for each Black Ocellaris and maybe $4-5 for onyx percs, IF you're selling to a WHOLESALE DISTRIBUTOR who in turn will sell exclusively to LFS and not the general public...that's realistic in my book.

Rerun the numbers based on those sale prices and consider what the LFS or two are willing to purchase direct as a "bonus". Granted, you may be hard pressed to supply a wholesale operation if you're willing to sell directly to anyone and everyone including their own LFS clients...the wholesaler may want you exclusively selling to wholesalers only...otherwise prepare for an even bigger "hit" on your sale prices.

FWIW,

MP

[mwp]

Maybe all that seems like a lot of work for little gain, and it IS. Again, I don't know what kind of setup you're contemplating, and while Ocellaris and Percs can be your bread and butter, where you really may make the money is NOT killing yourself producing massive quantities of these three, but being able to "boutique" yourself with other speciality items, again, coral frags, less common clowns (nigripes, allardii, lats etc..), seahorses etc. If you don't focus on producing 5000 clowns every month, but cut back and diversify, you CAN focus more on selling to LFS, where you get more money for the same fish, and you don't have to worry about moving 1000 ocellaris every month.

MP

[David M]

Colby- where in California? I am in San Diego (easy access to LA) and I too harbor the fantasy that I could hang up my tool belt and make a reasonable living breeding fish. You will get $3.50-$4 apiece for ocellaris and most basic clowns in LA, I wouldn't know about the others.

A lot depends on what you need to "make a living", if your'e married with children and your wife doesn't work I'd say it's not likely :D If you consider $30K a year an acceptable income then sure, you can do it easily. If you need $100K + I'd say give up before you begin. For me it's somewhere in the middle and I'm planning to try :D I am a self employed liscensed electrician so working is not necessarily set at 40 hrs per week. I can dial back the hours as breeding becomes (hopefully) a bigger % of my income and time commitment. If your "day job" is all or nothing I think it would be harder to make the transition unless you have a good reserve built up.

I totally agree that diversifying species and selling as much as you can direct to retailers is a better approach than trying to mass produce a single species for wholesale. What fun would that be anyway, after all the idea is to make a living doing something you enjoy, right? My plan is to set a realistic ocellaris production goal for wholesale, enough to cover the "nut", and then look to other species for diversification and direct sales to stores. In my case I want to produce 1000 oc's a month with the capacity to double that if needed. These are live animals here, they can die, get sick or simply stop spawning for no aparant reason (belive me, I know this). If I can make the 1000 with two pair I want at least 6 more as back ups. Doesn't mean I want to rear more than 1000/ month but I want the "insurance". After that I want to grow out maybe one nest each month of tomatos and gsms since I have them anyway, that coud easily be another 500 fish. I'm also hoping for 50-60/ month bangaii's which I just started working with again. I also have orchid and arabian dottybacks which I have not succeeded with but I'll get there some day. I have blue assessors I haven't even tried yet and blue streak cardinals that spawn all the time, I just don't have time for them because I'm still working the day job. So the plan is make the nut through wholesale and then diversify as much as possible, using experience to balance out the production of other species based on direct sales to lfss. A sales guy at SDC told me how many lfs ther are in the greater LA area, I forget the number now but it blew me away. It was well over 1000.

[colby]

hello,
sorry it took me soo long to reply..thank you for all of the information and input. I think that my goal will be to raise a few hundred of several different species each month and try to sell primarily to lfs...considerin the limited market for seahorses I am also considering selling via the internet as well in order to gain as many customres as possible.. what has been your experience with the number of seahorses you have been able to sell? Thnx.
Colby

[David M]

I was never able to make seahorses "profitable" but I know some who have, it can be done. The problem for me is an ethical one, sure you can crank them out and wholesale them off for $10 ea at 2-3" but IME that is waaaay too young, and the vast majority are going to be purchased by people with no knowledgse of their special needs. They are gonna get tossed into reef tanks in many cases, or even worse f/o systems where they get starved out by aggressive eaters. It's a specialty market and if you care about the animals at all you want them at 4-6 months before selling and you want the consumer "qualified". Then there is the fact that the consumer you do want is going to want pairs and in most cases you can't guarantee that at 3 months old. I am sick of seeing all the puny "farm raised" horses that get sold at wholesale and retail, it really irks me, most are doomed from the start. So no more horses for me. When I did raise them I sold only direct to known seahorse.org people at 7-8 months and got $75 each, it's a small market but the only way I would do it. JMO :D

[colby]

David... I totally agree with you...I would not feel comfortable selling the horses to anyone I didnt know...also I would not sell them till they are atleast 5 or 6 inches..so I may recosider raising the ponies...another question for u guys..just got another pair of breeding Ocellaris...any idea how long in your experience it may take em to breed again after move?

[mwp]

I don't know about that Colby...you ARE trying to make a profit too, right? What you need to do is educate the LFS's.

My whole seahorse experience started with seeing a young trio of black Erectus at a LFS...I'd noticed them before but never really gave them another thought until RENEE noticed them. Only then did we inquire further...turns out they were well trained to eat frozen mysis - they chased it down with gusto. What I saw there literally turned all my preconceived notions about seahorses upside down...I had to try it. After researching, most folks felt erectus was too large for the 24 gallon cube, thus I've ended up with barbouri. I lost one along the way that never did well, but the other 2 males and the female now eat with gusto from a Tubrinaria (cup coral feeding station).

Basically, partner up with your LFS, educate them, and THEY will in turn educate their customers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with putting seahorses in a reef (mine share a full blown reef with our mating mandarins)...just have to pick the right companions (corals and fish) and give them a feeding station setup...no reason someone can't be successful. I'm not going to have any qualms selling my future broods (if I'm lucky enough to raise them for a change) because I know the standards of the folks at the LFS's I'd sell them to in the first place.

Selling them over the internet...sure, you totally eliminate that "experienced" middle man to help you sell your ponies and most likely the job of screening individual people who find you via the internet could be too much to tackle.

Personally, I wouldn't rule out seahorses...at least here in Chicago we RARELY see them...they're usually not even on wholesaler's lists. May not be the same situation in California, but I don't think I'll have any problems selling my seahorses here (again, if and when I ever manage to get some breeding and raise them up!)

FWIW,

MP