View Full Version : Greenbanded Goby (Elacatinus multifasciatus, Gobidion etc..) Breeding Log
Well, I'm still "cleaning up the threads" and trying to keep my various project organized! I figured with all the activity I've had and what's currently going on, it might be time to consolidate the Greenbanded Gobies!
Our pair, photographed when they "weren't" a pair, a couple days after introduction...for the most part we rarely see them now!
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN9862_GBG_pair.jpg
First, here's the old threads:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=749279
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=758034
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=765587
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=770984
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Elactinus multifasciatus - I've also seen this species named as Gobiosoma multifasciatus and Tigrigobius tifasciatus
Common Names: Greenbanded Goby
Quick synopsis of tank/care/diet etc..
Current conditions as of 5-14-06
Tank - 24 galllon Nano Cube, Finnex 150 watt HQI 14K Metal Halide with 2 X 18 PC Actinic and upgraded mooonlighting. Filtration is basically stock with the addition of an air stone and purigen.
Co-Inhabitants - 1m/1f Pterapogon kaudernii, 2m/1f Apogon margaritophorus, 1m/1f Greenbanded Gobies (I've seen too many different scientific names to know which one to use anymore!), 2 Nemateleotris magnifica (suspected pair of Firefish). This tank is set up as a reef, MOST organisms in this tank are cultured from frags etc...captive raised fish whenever possible. This tank was not started with any live rock- the reef is constructed of "Lace" rock and Tufa.
Diet - Frozen Foods include: SF Bay Enriched Brine, SF Bay Spirulina Enriched Brine, Hikari Enriched Brine, Hikari Mysis, Cyclopeze, Formula 1, PE Mysis, Hikari Plankton. Occasional Live Foods Include: Live Brine Shrimp, adult and nauplii. I periodically soak frozen foods with SELCON.
Tank Care & Conditions - pH typically 8.2. Temps in upper 70's. Specific Gravity around 1.024 usually. Water changes are 3 gallons, weekly or as needed. All organic levels are usually very low to nonexistent (i.e. < 1 ppm Nitrate, 0 on the rest) although following our recent move (March '06), this tank has experienced elevated nitrate levels at times (i.e. 50 PPM). Calcium levels while probably not relevant hover between 350 and 400.
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Next up, a recap of events to the present...
MP
12-15-05 - We purchased 2 Captive Bred GBG's and added them to the cardinafish tank. For a while they did nothing but chase each other around and fight. Lots of face-to-face confrontation. I suspected we had 2 males.
1-12-06 - I noticed a change in behavior and posted about it, including video.
Today things have changed (or perhaps this is simply the first day I noticed it). One of the two seems to be leading the other one in a chase around the tank...the "leader" shimmies and quivers..the other one more or less just follows. Far cry from fighting, it looks like our 2 PO'd gobies may have just decided to get along (and perhaps they're M/F afterall). I got some crummy vids (those tiny guys move so fast in and out of focus)...will try to post today.
The VIDEO - http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/gobycourtship.html
It's worth mentioning at this point that a few people have proposed that, based on their experiences with this species, it *may* very well be hermaphroditic, which would definitely allow for any two young fish to pair up if given enough time and space. Granted, we had a 50/50 shot at getting a pair anyway...just food for thought on anyone considering this species.
1-23-06 - Mysteriously, BABIES appear in the adult's tank.
About the larvae
1. Sorry, no metric ruler around, but they're around 1/8" in length.
2. The Brine nauplii I have on hand was hatched 2 evenings ago...it's definitely TOO LARGE for them to eat, but they really, really want to.
3. L Strain rotifers seem like they could be the right size, but I haven't noticed any feeding.
4. The larvae are positively phototrophic.
5. They kinda move like gobies in a jumpy, herky jerky fashion, but at times they make mad dashes, moving rapidly through the water just under the surface.
6. They're transparent with "3 spots". The first "spot" is the eyes. The 2nd spot appears to be the gut. The 3rd spot, before the tail???
7. The larvae appeared around 9:00 PM this evening, typically 1-3 hours before "lights out". Hatching lasted maybe 1 hour. As of lights out (11:00 PM) no new larvae have been found.
8. When "appearing" they'd make a mad dash for the surface, popping out of the rockwork almost like corks held underneath water. At times 5-6 would "pop up" together.
9. Brood size - well, I didn't find any in the mechanical chamber of the nanocube and today it's not "surface skimming" anyways. I collected approximately 50 babies.
An image was also posted, as well as more video:
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0587_newly_hatched_1.jpg
Quicktime Format, around 2.8 mb, 10 seconds.
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanore...2-06_larvae.MOV
Well, I feel the larvae are too small to place in a "breeder net". I don't have any free tankspace on hand either, so I have the larvae roughly split 50/50 into two specimen cups (one large, one small).
Into the small one I placed the 2 day old brine nauplii until I realized these fry are WAY too small to eat them. I also placed L-Strain Rotifers and 10 drops of phytoplex.
The large specimen cup contains L-Strain rotifers and just a couple nauplii I didn't get out.
The general consensus was that these mystery larvae were in fact GreenBanded Goby larvae.
1-23-06 We'd lost 50% of the larvae, but another 10 larvae showed up in the tank that night, so not everything had hatched out the first time around.
Large Specimen Cup - roughly maybe 25-30 larvae captured last night. I've introduced a "fair amount" of L-Strain Rotifers last night. Added 10 drops of phytoplex this AM, along with a cup's worth of rotifers that were enriched with 2 drops Selcon overnight. Added more rotifers this evening. Admittedly, it looks like some larvae are going downhill. I added an air-feed this evening, bubbling around 2-3 bubbles per second. I also removed 1/4 of the water this evening and replaced it with tank water.
Small Specimen Cup - this also had maybe 25 larvae last night. It inadvertently got a thousand or so 2 day old brine shrimp nauplii, + rotifers, + 10 drops of phytoplex last night. This mornign I gave them another 10 drops of phytoplex and a baster full of copepod nauplii (from the "Tiggerpods" that Reed is putting out). This afternoon Renee came home to find all the fish dead. She simply poured it back into the tank, filled it back up, and placed the dozen or so new larvae into it.
The smaller specimen cup is roughly 0.24 gallons, the larger is 0.59 gallons.
More or less I suspect the larvae are starving.
1-24-06 - Only 6 larvae remained alive. Within the next 24 hours they were dead as well.
1-31-6 - SPAWN #2!
Hurah! Another spawn of our "mystery" larvae has appeared...granted a couple days "late" but who cares! A much larger batch, roughly 150?
So I've considered our experience the first time around and made some adjustments. First, all larvae are in one large specimen container (roughly 1/2 gallon). I harvested 1/3 gallon from a rotifer culture (that's at a density of roughly 50-100 per ml, L-Strain), sieved it and fed it in (again, lots of those copepods went in as well). As my phyto cultures are not yet up to snuff, I added enough Phytoplankton (this time Liquid Life's) to turn the water ever so slightly green.
The other change I've made is that an airline is already in place, bubbling about 5 bubbles per second. It's enough to keep the water moving slowly...just a touch more movement than I use in my rotifer cultures.
Anyone have any different ideas at this point? I'm hoping to make it past 24 hours this time. Someone suggested adding a small amount of carbon which I think I'm going to do as well.
The only other thing I can say at the moment is that I pulled one out and looked at it under the 10X loop...didn't see it eat anything and it sure looks "SKINNY" already, i.e. sunken belly, and that's on a newly hatched fish! There are definitely NO yolk sacks on these guys, so instant feeding is likely a must! It LOOKS as though they *might* be feeding, but honestly, I haven't seen any "S" curve-type striking.....
One more comment, I left about a dozen in a net breeding with the female mandarin we're "training" to take frozen foods (it's working quite well). These larvae seem entirely too fast for her as well as really not having quite the right movement (all she's eating now is frozen enriched brine )
At least this way, if the large batch in the specimen cup keels and we still have live ones in the net breeder, we'll have a better idea that it's a water quality issue!
2-1-06 - The next morning, things don't look good:
Quick update. Things were not looking good this morning and are continuing today to look subpar.
A water test revealed a slightly elevated nitrite level (0.25 or so) - 50% of the culture water was changed and 2 drops of Prime added. The rotifer population was definitely "down" a bit, so I added some more. Also added around 10 ML from a Nannochloris culture that's coming on strong (only started it this past weekend). Also added some Caulerpa springs to help maintain good water quality.
With that said, it's looking like this is going to go down just like the last one...all DOA in 24 hours or so...at least that's where it looks to be headed.
I'm not at the point yet where I can follow the recommended steps of doing a 10 gallon tank, painted sides, adding 1 L of Isocrysis per day (in fact, that culture seems like it's not starting from the disk I used...). We're simply not at that point yet.
Knowing how this has all gone down, I also know to expect a small secondary hatch tonight (if we follow the pattern of the first time around). I'll get some more babies to work with in another, small specimen cup. What if anything should I try to change to increase my chances?
By the end of the day, things look grim:
24 hours in, we're at about a 75% loss - not 100%, but most of the remaining live babies are on their sides on the bottom. The larvae seem to go from VERY active at hatch to less active, to losing attitude control, to being on the bottom, swimming briefly, to finally death. Sure sounds like starvation thus far...I pulled a larvae earlier today and looked at it under the 10X loop - didn't look like there was anything in the gut. Another look this evening...still can't say they're getting ANYTHING in the way of rotifers! Let me say that in a size-comparison, it *looks* like one of these larvae taking down an L-Strain rotifer would be equivelent to a human shoving a double-quarter-pounder-with-cheese in their mouth in one gulp! In other words, the rotifers look too big.
2-2-06 - We still have some going...
We're now 36 hours in, a new record of sorts, as we still have 4-5 larvae swimming around. If they've made it past the "hump" by tonight, 2 days in, I think we have a shot at making some progress. Remember, we had larvae show up at "24 hours in" on the first spawn, and they were all gone within 24 hours of isolation as well. So 48 hours, that's the mark to beat right now.
Also probably worth mentioning, no new larvae showed up last night...different than our first time around.
By the end of the day, we've made it further than before:
Well, all I can say is we've broken the 48 hour mark. The only real changes I've made from the first is the addition of carbon, immediate aeration, and definitely better feeding of the larvae (including small introductions of Nannochloris, Isocrysis and Tetraselmis). Only 4-5 remain, but we're definitely going in the right direction here. Hopefully by the time the next batch is ready, the phyto cultures will be up to speed.
2-3-06 - (play game over sound from Pacman)
Well, somewhere between 48 and 60 hours the last 4 larvae kicked the bucket
2-7-06 - SPAWN #3
Alrighty, today (2-7-06), around 11:30 (lights came on late around 11:00 AM) we had another hatching of Greenbanded Gobies!
A quick recap. Our first two spawns hatched in the evening...this morning hatch was totally unexpected, and again, I noticed it when the Bangaii's were "feeding" yet I hadn't placed any food in the tank!
This 3rd spawn seems to be around 75-100 larvae...not sure how many were eaten. So, larger than the first spawn, probably a little smaller than the 2nd spawn. So far, since they started spawning on the 23rd...we're looking at an average 7 day window between each hatch!
2-9-06 - 48 hours in...
So 48 hours have passed and we still have ONE larvae alive. A new "record" in the making, but not sure how much longer this guy will stick around. To lose over 99% in the first 48 hours is getting very frustrating.
And that was the end of the third spawn.
2-27-06 - Spawn #4 - totally ignored this hatch, read below:
Just a quick note. It's been a while since our 3rd hatch. Today (2-27-06) we had another hatch at 11:00 AM or so - 20 days since the last one. I suspect that we had at least 1 additional hatch in between that we never noticed.
In any case, due to the fact that we're moving sometime this week, I had to make the tough choice to just let the babies get eaten by the cardinalfish in the tank. If ANYONE in the Chicago area wants to try to raise these, again, I'm happy to fork over the larvae.
3-12-06 - Spawn #5 - another one goes without any care:
Well, I'm literally in the midst of our moving the 2 tanks (and setting up 2 more - during the move I pulled all the live rock and utilized some of the water in a new tank. It figures...I poured a bunch of GBG larvae out of the bucket - they actually hatched in transit. So there's another hatch as of today. Just like the last batch, they've been left to fend for themselves.
Obviously, as with #4, nothing happened..the babies just disappeared.
4-7-06 - Spawn #6 - still having to "pass" on raising the GBG's as other fish are taking priority - interestingly I either missed somehatches OR the fish stopped spawning for a while following the move:
Wow, it's been almost a month since the last hatch, at least the last hatch I "noticed". I managed to scoop out 50 or so larvae today starting at around 10:30 am (30 minutes after the halide came on). Yahutch expressed an interest in trying to raise them (I'm focusing my efforts on A. leptacanthus) so hopefully Yahutch is ready and can meet me to take possesion of the little lurching silver slivers today.
4-8-06 - Overnight the entire clutch crashes:
posted on 4-10 - Well, haven't yet heard back from Yahutch and overnight, the first night, all the GBG larvae kicked the bucket in one mass die off. Pretty much done screwin' around with specimen cups in the main tank..that 10 gallon is getting set up ASAP for the forthcoming A. leptacanthus larvae...and I'm sure another goby spawn will come up soon enough!
5-12-06 - SPAWN #7! Well, it just happened and as I'm recapping all my prior experience I have baby GBG's in a larval tank...here's the recap for the current spawn:
They're not going with their former regularity, or maybe I"ve just missed the last few spawns. However, none of that matters at the moment - WE HAVE GBG BABIES again!.
The 10 gallon larval tank is set up, although last night it had a HUGE nitrite problem...no mandarins hatched because of it.
One note about the GBG fry that I may have mentioned before - in addition to being positivey phototrophic they are also REALLY interested in the bright blue silicone airline tubing....makes removing them a piece of cake!
As always, I noticed this hatch when my fish started feeding on something at 10:25 AM today...I hadn't fed yet.
By 12:00 PM I had drained and refilled the tank with water from the parent's tank, about 5 gallons. I then added 1 Liter of Fresh T-Iso (aka. Isocrysis) from a culture. By 6:30 PM I had seived a portion of each rotifer and copepod culture I have going through 110 and collected the efluent with a 10 micron sieve, that was then placed into the tank. I finally caved and blacked out the sides of the tank...this time around, I was ready to do things "by the book".
That night, we had a spawn of mandarins, so the kriesel was set back up in the tank. I had also taken a picture of the larvae I collected and in the evening counted them up:
So, I took a headcount of my collected larvae (shot a picture of them in the tupperware and FINALLY finished counting them all this evening). Is a clutch of 194 Green Banded Gobies BIG??? Round that to 200 easily, as a few got eaten before I noticed the spawn!
5-13-06 - the latest happenings. Today we had NO hatch on the mandarins (OK, briefly this evening 1 was hatched out but has since disappeared). Nitrites were again creeping up, so a 2 gallon water change was done along with a dosing of 1 ML Prime and 5 ML Stability. The rotifers and T-Iso were basically gone, so this afternoon I fed 1 liter of fresh Nannochloropsis and doubled up the amount of rotifers and copepods that I seived and fed (same meshes as before).
A fair amount of the "GBG" larvae somehow made their way into the kriesel...I know I've had losses but with the "discoloration" of the tank from the algae it's making it hard to see how we're doing.
So that's where we're at...24 hours. I honestly can't say things look much better than any prior spawn...we'll have to wait and see I guess.
Going forward, I intend to keep any and all happenings with the GBGs current and posted to this thread. Enjoy!
MP
5-14-06 - We're well into day #3 this time around...we've broke that 48 hour barrier but hey, I know others have made it this far...by tomorrow night maybe we'll really be onto something. The number of larvae is really difficult to estimate at this point because the water is green, the tank sides are covered and well...There's one here and there but I haven't found any big cluster (I may use a light this evening to concentrate them and see how many we actually have going). AGAIN, we have some NITRITE in the water (about 0.5 PPM) so again I'm going to treat that with 1 ML Prime and 5 ML Stability. Man, this is annoying!
MP
5-15-06 - as of 10:00 PM tonight we still have some GBG larvae running around, and those that are in there look BIG and active...maybe we cracked the nut?
MP
ediaz
05/16/2006, 08:56 AM
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/61742scrat.bmp
INDEED Ed, INDEED!
5-16-06 - well I looked around the tank today and it took a LONG time to find larvae, but I did manage to find one still kicking...there may be more running around in there. Last night they got some Tetraselmis and today they got another liter of Isocrysis (T-Iso)...all teh same I'm pretty PO'd about the success rate consider we started with almost 200. I'm really thinking that S-Strain rotifers are going to be the only way in the long term...STILL only have L-Strain.
MP
Well, after testing on 5-17, AGAIN, we have nitrites that are really HIGH (5 PPM) which probably killed off the few remaining larvae. I tore down the tank and REMOVED the sponge filter, then set it back up with established, strained tank water for a mandarin spawn. So this batch of GBG's is done, but we doubled our survival time from roughly 2 to 4 days, so the T-Iso seems to have helped! My next few hatches are probably going to go off to other breeders to try to raise -> I'm really, really focusing my efforts on raising up the mandarins for a bit.
MP
5-19-06 - well, 9:30 AM we had another hatch! imbuggin is gonna pick them up and try to raise them (already has had some success with clowns, so we'll see!). This batch is outta my hands in about an hour!
MP
6-3-06 - Well, Memorial Day weekend we were out of town - if we had a weekly hatch I wasn't here to see it.
Today I slept in this morning and woke up around 10:30 AM to find ANOTHER GBG hatch! It looks like a lot got eaten or otherwise maybe got sucked into the filtration...the hatch had long since ended by the time I made it to the tank and started scooping out fry. I'm gonna see if imbuggin wants to try them again - I'm busy with mandarin eggs!
MP
Well, imbuggin is tied up, so this batch...hmm. Gonna keep trying to find a foster home, or maybe I"ll just have to go the specimin cup route with the SS rotifers and see if that works.
MP
Well, I'm out of time to try and find these guys a home, so they are back into the 1/2 gallon specime cup with an air feed (about 2 bubbles per second), 75 ML of T-Iso and a bunch of seived L-Strain Rotifers (passed through 120 to take out the bigguns and collected with 10 micron). Going to add some more algae before I leave for the day, maybe some Nannochloropsis. I also added in what I could from my likely crashed SS Strain Rotifer cultures...so *maybe* there are some in there, not sure.
Looks like the mandarins AND the GBGs will get another shot at living this week.
MP
Added another 40 ML of T-Iso and 30 ML of Nannochloropsis (it was looking really clear in there already). Keep those fingers crossed.
MP
Well, the last larval attempt didn't get very far. I've been in and out of town a lot lately and may have missed a spawn or two.
Today (6-19-06) we MIGHT have had a hatch early on, perhaps when the actinics came on (before I was awake)...I noticed the cardinalfish feeding on something as usual but saw ONE mangled but still alive fish larvae in the tank. I turned off the pumps but nothing else showed up...so I think I "missed it".
FWIW,
MP
7-7-06 - FOUND A NEST! - well, for a while now I've been watching the GBGs, trying to figure out where they spawn etc. Well tonight, on a whim, I peaked into a crevice with a flashlight and SHAZAM there's the larger GBG (male?) and a bunch of eggs with eyes! VERY COOL! Likely that I'll be out of town when these hatch out, but I'm going to try to get some pics...won't look like much at first even if I succeed in getting focused in on them, but I'll do my very best!
MP
Best I could capture...man I had to contort myself in all sorts of strange positions to get even this poor quality shot!
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN3291_gbgeggs.jpg
FWIW,
Matt
7-24-06 - well it seems that these guys are indeed still on a routine, yet it must be that hatches are occuring when I'm not around. I took a look earlier in the week and found another goby nest; I expected it to hatch this morning...nope. We were gone for the later half of the day, and when I returned I was somewhat relieved to find the babies still there with those silver eyes pearing out of their little vertical eggs. No hatch at light's out...hmm. The male appears to be sleeping, so I can only guess if/when they'll hatch. I really want to give these guys another go now that I have plentiful supplies of SS-Strain rotifers (and somewhat PO'd mandarins that aren't spawning as often as they did in months past). Harumph...I'm pondering creating some sort of larval collector....I just wonder how many can make it in there with all the cardinalfish lurking (they're typically the ones that notify me when a hatch has commenced by their "Feeding" activity when I haven't put any food into the tank recently!)
Any suggestions as always would be welcome.
Matt
As a last ditch effort, I shut down all the pumps a moment ago and tried squirting the eggs with a pipette as suggested in one of the online goby breeding articles. It *should* have caused them to hatch IF they were ready. No hatch, and it seems I kinda ticked off the male a bit between the flashlight and the wierd thing sticking into his cave. OH WELL...hopefully they won't hatch out overnight and be gone come morning; I've actually delayed the lights timing so that I can be onhand for sunrise ;)
Breeding Marine Fish is SOOOOOO frustrating sometimes!
Matt
Just a quick update, I started sunrise this morning around 8:15 AM...by 9:10 there wasn't a hatch, the eggs still stuck in the little cave. Hopefully they'll wait until this evening to hatch out, after I'm home from work.
MP
@#!$!!! - the cardinalfish got a good meal of live baby gobies sometime while I was at work today. Oh well...maybe the next spawn will be due to hatch more around Tuesday of next week...
MP
Well, sometime in the last 27 hours or so THE GOBIES SPAWNED! This is pretty sweet; now that I've found where they lay their eggs it's going to be pretty easy to check up on 'em and hopefully figure out when to capture them etc...now that I know they're back on a weekly routine, it might be time to build a larval collector and make those gobies earn their keep (and possibly help fund more efforts with the Synchiropus!)
MP
8-1-06, 10:00 AM - WE HAVE A HATCH! - Well FINALLY, it seems like it's been months since I was around for a hatch! Approximately 100+ larvae made it. They've been placed in the larval tank (10 gallon) which is currently filled wtih 6 gallons of saltwater and a bunch of SS-Strain Rotifers AND some phytoplankton, all in there for the Mandarin larvae that as usual have not made it very far. There is actually 1 mandarin still in there that I saw this morning.
I added in 6 "basters" of mixed phytoplankton (T-Iso, Nannochloris, Nannochloropsis and Tetraselmis) that I harvested Sunday night and refridgerated...the tank had recently "significantly cleared" and the rotifer population skyrocketed, thus the additional phyto.
I ALSO got some great vids and pics of the newly hatched GBG larvae under the microscope; I'll post those soon.
Matt
Newly hatched GBG's under the scope!
Green Banded Goby Larvae at 10X
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_10X_newlyhatched.jpg
Video - http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_10X_newly_hatched.avi
Greenbanded Goby Larvae at 60X - major ruler units are 1mm
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_60X_newlyhatched_ruler.jpg
Video - http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_60X_newlyhatched.avi
FWIW,
Matt
Kathy55g
08/01/2006, 02:55 PM
very sweet! Isn't it nice to have a lot of larvae?
IT IS, IT IS Kathy! Now if I can just not kill these too!
Matt
Just a quick update, the water was already pretty clear and the larvae had moved from the middle water column to the surface, so I added in another 6 basters worth of mixed live phyto.
Matt
More pictures...this is a larvae around 12 hours old. I wanted to see if they were feeding or not, so I spent 15 minutes chasing larvae with the pipette before finally getting lucky and catching one! Some of these pix are 60X, others are 200X, and the vid is a full view of the larvae from the ventral and lateral viewpoints at 200X (it's a big vid, 21 mb). BTW, if you have problems viewing the video, my suggestion is to save it to your hard drive and then open it from the viewer...for some reason opening it directly or double clicking doesn't work!
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_12_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_12_2.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_12_3.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_12_4.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_12_5.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_12_6.jpg
VIDEO - http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_12_ventralateral.avi[/url]
Enjoy!
Matt
Well, the tank is now CLEAR so another 6 basters of my regular phytoplankton mix went into the tank. I suspect it's not enough this time; more will go in later after the temps stabilize.
(added in 2 more after the fact, 8 basters total. EAch baster is about 3 fl. oz.)
Matt
danfrith
08/02/2006, 09:41 PM
hey matt, do you flaming prawn gobys would be hermaphroditic?
http://www.marinecenter.com/fish/gobies/flamingprawngoby/
also goodluck luck with your pair.
thanks.
I have no clue on Greislinger's Goby (aka. Flaming Prawn)...oh how I'd LOVE to try them though. Granted, with their small size, they'd be more than manageable to pair up from a group, the only problem there is that the rule of 6 means you'd be spending $600-$900 for broodstock - never a problem with fish you KNOW how to breed and rear, but definitely not an investment to be made with no prior experience (thus why I've tried regular Firefish vs. Helfrichi's).
Matt
OK, the latest round of updates. 1st, I check last night, no eggs, tonight, another batch of eggs is in the cave! I may actually have some GBG larvae to "give away" next week IF I catch the hatch and IF I still have loads of viable larvae in the larval tank - anyone in Chicago interested?
The larvae - I added 8 basters of "phytomix" and 3 gallons of freshly mixed saltwater this evening (around 10:30 PM). I found 2 dead larvae...that's a dramatically better situation than I recall for most of my prior attempts at raising GBGs.
I shot more microscope pictures...didn't bother with vid but did a bunch of shots at 60X and 200X. I still cannot tell what they are feeding on but it definitely appears there's stuff in the gut...that's what really matters at this point, unless I'm totally off. Anyone who's familiar with what things look like under magnification, I welcome your interpretation of the photographs. BTW, 2 of these pictures have a SS-Strain rotifer in the shot which helps give you a general idea of scale (I can always throw the rulers onto the pictures later...it takes time I just don't have!). Doesn't really look like much change between yesterday (12 hours post hatch) and today (36 hours post hatch).
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_36_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_36_2.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_36_3.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_36_4.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_36_5.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_36_6.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_36_7.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_36_8.jpg
Enjoy!
Matt
Kathy55g
08/03/2006, 04:36 AM
Not sure, but it looks like they are eating the rots. Do their little bellies expand much? It looks like you have rotifer shapes in the gut.
Luis A M
08/03/2006, 08:58 AM
Awesome pics!.The rear gut is occupied,most probably by rots.The swim bladder is very conspicuous.The larva is typical for Gobiosoma-Elacatinus:very long,transparent,with three colored areas,the eyes,the swim bladder,and a white spot before the tail fin.
ediaz
08/03/2006, 09:17 AM
Gobies don't chug on rots like clownfish larvae, they are eating
Add phyto in the morning, about a liter of good dark for ten gal. of water. No need to add during the rest of the day, and this gives you a chance to see the larvae in the evening when the water is clear.
Use a moderate to strong light over the tank, this will keep them eating at the surface instead of hovering at the bottom of the tank. Do not switch the lights off suddenly at nigth, use a nite lite or something over the tank at nights.
Ed
Ed, Luis, Kathy, thanks for chiming in and letting me know that I'm not nuts, they are eating - success!!!
Ed, as you may have read I've been adding phyto kinda at morning and evening....not a whole liter but enough to keep it green/brown and visibility in check.
I also have an 18" flourescent over the tank...the ambient lights probably do the job of helping make a smooth transition, but at night they are basically in the dark - I'll try to figure something out to keep them dimly lit for 6-8 hours at night.
Thanks again guys!
Matt
Well, the larval tank was completely clear as of noon, so I just added in 9 more basters (27 fluid oz) of the phytoplankton mix. Looks like the larvae are STILL going strong. This afternoon IF I have time I'm going to take out a few gallons, strain a few more and return them and selcon enrich the rotifers and then return those to the tank (make sense?). Renee will be in charge for a couple days while I'm on a fly fishing guide, so I want to make sure they're good to go in my absence.
Matt
Currently underway this evening, I've drained off 2 gallons of water and tossed it (saved the rotifers and fed them to the gorgonians in the seahorse tank :) ). I'm draining out another 2 gallons and will save the rotifers for enrichment, followed by the addition of 2 gallons freshly mixed water (yes, a water change of about 25% of the remaining volume after the water toss).
I'm going to take some more microscope shots tonight to see what further development, if any, has occured. After tomorrow morning, things are in Renee's hands until Sunday night :)
Matt
Well, while completely the addition of the 2 freshly mixed gallons, I accidentally tipped over my saved rotifers into the sink...oh well, won't have two gallon's worth to enrich now! Instead, I added roughly 2/3 liter of T-Iso fresh from the culture...that should help out. I'm also adding 1/3 a liter of Nannochloropsus to help balance out the HUFA's.
FWIW,
Matt
Well, the guts didn't look as full this evening despite the fact that there are TONS of rotifers in the tank...however the water was clear. Is it possible (probable) that at this point the babies are still feeding on algae, not the actual rotifers?
Here's 2 quick shots and a LONG vid (37 mb) that really shows the development and internal features well at roughly 60 hours post hatch.
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_60_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_60_2.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_60_3.avi
No more updates until at the earliest Sunday evening! Renee is getting instructions to add 8 basters of mandarin mix every morning (basically T-Iso and Tetraselmis, but I added some Nano for good measure), and if the tank is crystal clear, add some in the afternoon (probably another 4-8).
FWIW,
Matt
Kathy55g
08/03/2006, 10:50 PM
I may be wrong, but T-Iso and tetraselmus have nearly identical fatty acid profiles. I would add nannochloris or nannochloropsis as well to give what the others lack. I know you have all those cultures! Mine are doing fine since I got them from you. Thanks again, Matt.
K
(basically T-Iso and Tetraselmis, but I added some Nano for good measure)
Yup, right you are. The mix is probably 1/4 Nannochloropsis. Now, here's the interesting thing...all the goby articles online point to using T-Iso exclusively in the tank...wierd in my opinion (however, they do also suggest selco / selcon enrichment, but they don't really state HOW since, if following the directions explicitly, you're only supposed to add rotifers at the beginning!)
Glad to hear all the cultures are going well Kathy! SS doing well?
Matt
Kathy55g
08/04/2006, 06:11 AM
Yes! I passed them on to my friend who has a spawning pair of gobies,( yellow clown?).
They grew very well for me, however, they do not hibernate in the fridge well at all, as my L strain does.
Kathy55g
08/04/2006, 08:23 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7875868#post7875868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
Yup, right you are. The mix is probably 1/4 Nannochloropsis. Now, here's the interesting thing...all the goby articles online point to using T-Iso exclusively in the tank...wierd in my opinion (however, they do also suggest selco / selcon enrichment, but they don't really state HOW since, if following the directions explicitly, you're only supposed to add rotifers at the beginning!)
Glad to hear all the cultures are going well Kathy! SS doing well?
Matt
Do they use tet because it is the best one, or because that is what they had on hand?
Kathy, regarding the use of "T-Iso" exclusively, I don't know WHY :) I certainly see no harm, but many benefits to offering the whole gamut.
Renee did an outstanding job while I was gone - there are still 40 larvae. She fed 8 basters Friday, 8 Saturday, 8 Sunday, all in the morning, + 4 basters Saturday evening. The water was clear, so I fed 4 basters this evening upon returning.
That's it on the updates for now, more later.
Matt
Kathy55g
08/07/2006, 06:11 AM
I think my T-iso got contaminated... it is turning green. Ihave some more in the fridge that's still orange.
Sounds like it did get contaminated Kathy...all 3 of my T-Iso's are still running orangish when newly started, quickly going deep brown when ready for harvest.
So, before I left for the office this morning the babies got another 8 basters of assorted live phytoplankton...Rotifer density is really high again. This evening maybe I'll get them back under the microscope...they look a LOT bigger than when I left Friday AM.
Matt
More pics and vids this evening, 156 hours (6.5 days) post hatch - BTW, that's a new record on longevity of goby larvae.
Looking at them they all looked SKINNY, so I'm draining out some rotifers for enrichment PLUS I'm going to seive some of my L-Strain Rotifer cultures as well...maybe...we'll see.
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_156_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_156_2.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_156_3.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_156_4.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_156_5.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_156_6.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_156_7.jpg
Video at 200X - http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_156_8.avi
More soon.
Alrighty, here's the lowdown on the maintenance. I removed 3 gallons worth of water and seived it for the SS rotifers that are now ultra-thick in the tank water. I removed an additional 1.5 gallons of water/rotifers and just dumped it - it's noteworth to mention that it rapidly FOAMED UP when agitated, so there's obviously a lot of nutrient buildup.
4 basters of phytoplankton went into the tank. I'm now dripping in 3 gallons worth of freshly mixed water. The collected rotifers are getting enriched with 5 drops of selcon...shouldn't take too long for them to clear the water out. Provided I don't SPILL THEM again, I'll get some enriched rotifers back into the tank in the next couple hours - the lights will stay on tonight to allow the larvae to continue to feed while those enriched rotifers are around.
That's pretty much the story on the larvae. The next batch of eggs are developing nicely, so I may have some extra larvae soon...I'm very tempted to just GET the 2nd 10 gallon tank and deal with the reprecussions later...afterall, if I make it over the hump there will be tons of Greenbanded Gobies to take care of! ;)
Matt
Another maintenance update. This morning I started a slow siphon and harvested another 2 gallons of Rotifers from the larval tank. I then strained that for enrichment. I also siphoned off about 1/2 of the total bottom, just doing some cleaning.
I've now mixed up 3 gallons of fresh water, added a liter of T-Iso to that + the last little bit of mixed phyto I had in the fridge (mostly the 2 Nanno types), and have it slowly filling back into the tank. The rotifers are still getting enriched, and will be added as soon as they clear the water of the Selcon.
I'd have to say, just giving a ballpark estimate, there are still 20-30 larvae.
Matt
iantoh
08/08/2006, 12:56 PM
great work mwp! hats off for the effort and increasingly better survival rates. do keep us updated with your progress ya. its always nice to hear of breeding successes.
cheers,
ian
Well, another round of pictures - it's now 7.5 days post hatch, 180 hours. Take a close look at the pics...in one it looks like there's actually an algae cell in there..not sure if it's T-Iso, Nannochloropsis or Tetraselmis. A couple shots have a SS Rotifer in the frame as well.
I'm getting concerned as the guts again don't look full despite there being abundant food...I'm going to do the L-Strain Rotifer Culture Addition tonight, seiving to 10 micron to include the copepods and other random stuff that are in there. Things in the larval tank are going to get much more diverse really quickly! FWIW, the 1 Liter addition of T-Iso has left the tank still heavily transluscent...I should probably stick to smaller dosings at this point.
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_180_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_180_2.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_180_3.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_180_4.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_180_5.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_180_6.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_180_7.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_180_8.jpg
MP
BTW, the eggs that were laid last week have not hatched yet, so tomorrow is probably the day...probably in the AM!
Matt
Well, things look about the same...I added 8 basters of mixed phytoplankton (all four types)...no hatch on the most recent batch yet.
FWIW,
Matt
OK, so 8.5 days, 204 hours, and I pulled 4 larvae to photograph under the microscope. At first glance all looked robust, healthy and active. Within a minute of placing them under the scope they started DYING - Sudden Larval Death! I've heard of this happening in marine larvae, but I don't know the exact cause (but remember that low HUFA's may play a role). In any case, I think I will NOT be photographing larvae for a few days, or if I do, I will only grab ONE larvae!
Here's a couple pics:
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_204_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_204_2.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_204_3.jpg
Still looks like some larvae are no longer eating...
Matt
Some more maintenance notes. This evening I've simply thrown away 2 gallons of the culture water, plus took out an additional 3 gallons which were seived for their rotifers. So the tank was brought down to just under 5 gallons of water again. 10 basters of phytoplankton went in (all types) and I'm currently doing a slow trickle of freshly mixed water into the tank.
I checked the salinity of the larval tank and found it to be a bit high, around 1.025, so the new water going in is 1.020.
The 3 gallons worth of rotifers I'm going to leave for selcon enrichment overnight...we'll see what they look like come morning. It sounds like I have as long as another week before I need to start thinking about hatching brine for these little buggers.
Matt
Luis A M
08/10/2006, 12:10 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7875868#post7875868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
Yup, right you are. The mix is probably 1/4 Nannochloropsis. Now, here's the interesting thing...all the goby articles online point to using T-Iso exclusively in the tank...wierd in my opinion (however, they do also suggest selco / selcon enrichment, but they don't really state HOW since, if following the directions explicitly, you're only supposed to add rotifers at the beginning!)
Glad to hear all the cultures are going well Kathy! SS doing well?
Matt
I asked Todd about that.They used only T-ISO because they didn´t have the lab space and time to culture more than one species.:rolleyes:
HRM! Well I'm sure the selcon enrichment more than made up for any lackings of T-Iso..thanks for the info Luis!
Some last minute notes before I hit the hay; there are still 20-30 GBG larvae in there, possibly more but they're so darn hard to count. It's been a LONG time since I've seen a baby guppy, but in some respects some of the larvae already look that size...maybe I need to get the BBS going early ;)
Another note on the larvae, they are still very heavily positively phototrophic...moving the flashlight around the tank, with all the lights off, in seconds there'd be at least 10 larvae running to the spot, and 20 or so would be there in probably less than a minute.
I obviously don't have much experience enriching rotifers, but the ammount I collected earlier this evening (around 11:00 maybe?) had already cleared out all 10 drops of Selcon, so I added another 10 drops. I guess they'll either be super enriched come morning...or dead...we'll see!
Matt
So it's morning and I think the Rotifers have had their fill of Selcon...many were clumped together; 10 drops is probably a bit much for them. I strained them, got most of the clumps out, and fed them into the tank, along with 10 basters of mixed phytoplankton. We'll see how things are going this evening...I'm expecting a hatch of their younger siblings in the next hour or two ;)
Matt
So much for the hatch...it happened sometime between 1:00 AM and 9:00 AM this morning because there hasn't been a hatch yet, and a quick peak into the cave revealed that all the eggs are gone. GRRRRRRRRR!
Matt
As per last night's comments, I'm going to skip the microscope shots on the larvae for tonight (and maybe a few more days). 4 more basters of the "mandarin mix" of phyto (T-Iso and Tetraselmis) were added to the tank around 9:30 PM...the rotifer population is doing a really good job of clearing the water QUICKLY now. I may do another water change this evening, but this time the purpose is expressly to dilute the rotifers.
FWIW,
Matt
This morning it looks like I've had substantial losses...maybe only 10 larvae left? I'll check again later in the day when they're more concentrated. I added in 8 basters of the phyto-mix, and took out about 20 basters as I was literally to the top of the rim, about to flood if I didn't remove some water. The larvae that remain look healthy and have definitely grown a lot since hatching.
FWIW,
Matt
Well, just another update...I kep the larvae up late tonight. 8 basters of phyto did squat earlier today, so I went back up to 10 just now...it's strange but as the water clears up, the larvae tend to congregate more on the immediate surface of the water. Adding in some phyto brings them down a bit and seems to get them feeding better. Maybe not strange if you consider one of the main theories of greenwater techniques and why they work.
Anyway, it's still quite hard to count the larvae...you think you found them all then there's a whole 2nd congregation you've missed off in the corner, but then that first group has scattered, or some are facing straight at you and easily get overlooked in the rotifer blizzard. I'm going to guess there are still 20-25 larvae...they've grown substantially now and I'm REALLY looking forward to "metamorphisis" in another 40-50 days.
Another note, looking at the remaining larvae they are now definitely showing some signs of feeding and "being fat". I think on the next batch I'll need to add in the L-Strain rotifers and copepods sooner in the process...those larvae that looked like they were starving (see prior microscope shots) suggest to me that they perhaps indeed were, looking for a food source larger than the SS-Strain. Just a thought...can't really think of anything else at this point.
I think if I can sell everything I raise at a roughly full retail price, it would possibly generate enough of a convincing monentary argument to justify that 2nd 10 gallon larval tank for the top of the wrought iron stand ;) Looking at these guys I now have the "over the hump" feeling...I got through the rough early days, now I just have to not screw anything up (I'm somewhat dreading the brine shrimp switch..it's been a long time since I had to hatch and harvest nauplii, let alone try to enrich them!). Here's to hoping I can get them onto something prepared rather quickly (Cyclopeze?)
BTW, another nest was laid sometime today.
Surprisingly optimistic for a change...
Matt
Kathy55g
08/12/2006, 09:40 AM
Hi Matt,
If you use just hatched brine shrimp it is best not to try to enrich them. They don't eat until at least a day after they hatch. For me with decapsulated eggs, it takes 24 hours to hatch at basement temperatures.
Cheers,
K
Sounds like a plan Kathy. I was thinking of giving Dan's (Seahorsesource) decapsulated brine a shot...I freakin' hate the eggshells and had really poor results when I tried to decapsulate my own a few months back.
Another update on the GBG husbandry - the algae I added in this morning was cleared out within an hour or two! OK, there are DEFINITELY too many rotifers in there. 5 gallons (50%) of the water was removed, and FWIW it SMELLS...not badly, but there's definitely an odor. I'm adding in 2 gallons of freshly mixed water via a slow siphon, with about another 4 basters of the 'mandarin mix' (T-Iso and Tetraselmis).
The larvae are still overall lookin' good! I might actually be able to get some neat shots with the REGULAR camera if I'm patient!\
Matt
3:30 PM - the water is clear AGAIN! 10 more basters of phytoplankton were added, a full mix.
Matt
Kathy55g
08/12/2006, 07:59 PM
Got a rotifer sieve? If I were you, I would reduce that rotifer population right away. Scented water could mean a rotifer crash, and if that happens, the gobies crash too.
(Siphon half of the water thru the sieve into a bucket, and then add the filtered water back. Repeat as necessary.)
You do not need more than 15 rots per ml in the goby tank. Now that you have a microscope, the counting is easy.
As always, the best of luck to you!
K
I'd say we're definitely around 20 rotifers per/ML. Kathy, yes the seive is a partial solution to keeping rotifer populations in check, but basically I'm using the rotifers from the larval tank that come out and feeding them to other tanks and getting rid of the water...it's keeping me on top of water changes/dilutions more than I probably would be otherwise.
I just tried a count on the larvae...got to 14 but darnit they are HARD to see when the main light is on...much easier to count when the flashlight is going 'cause they reflect light and rotifers don't, at least not to the same extent.
The water is AGAIN pretty much cleared out. I added another gallon of water I mixed up last night. I added 6 basters of mixed phyto from the fridge...I've gone through almost 3 gallons of phyto since harvesting just a few days ago! It's getting darn tough to keep the water even slightly tinged.
We're at 11.5 days now if my math is accurate!
Matt
Well at 9:30 AM I added in another 1 1/4 gallons of clean (new) saltwater and the last of the phytoplankton, mostly T-Iso and Tetraselmis, that I had harvested just a few days ago! Things look OK, not much else to say other than we're past the 12 day mark now!
Matt
I was out of phyto this evening so I set to harvesting Tetraselmis and T-Iso that was probably ready enough. 10 basters of the 50/50 mix went into the larval tank, where we still have plenty of GBG larvae to have fun with (we're past 12.5 days now...time to start considering setting up the brine shrimp hatchers!). We had a mandarin spawn this evening, and rather than just dump it I dumped it IN with the GBG larvae...at least the mandarins will have a fighting chance vs. 0 chance!
That's the news from the front!
Matt
aomont
08/14/2006, 12:37 AM
At which day you added L rotifers Matt ?
Anderson.
I was looking through all the notes and can't believe it, but I think I forgot to add a note about ADDING the L-Strain. I made mention of it aon 8-7-06, so I maybe it was either 8-8 or 8-9, 7 or 8 days of age?
This morning I've added the last of the phyto I harvested yesterday, 7 basters of the T-Iso/Tetraselmis mix. It's amazing how 2 liters of phytoplankton can just get consumed in 12 hours :)
Matt
Here's the quick update...those baby GBGs are still hard to find and count and I'd say over the last 2-3 days they are congregating more loosely. 10 basters of newly harvested phyto, all 4 types in equal portions, were added to the "crystal clear" water at 11:15 PM this evening.
Matt
So I'm pretty confident in saying we're down to the last 8-10 larvae on the GBG's, and it's 13.5 days. I pulled one out to give him a look; it seems some of these larvae are getting their mouths stuck open (or something is seriously wrong with the water and they're "gasping"). Anyway, I pulled out one of the larger larvae, put him under the microscope, shot for 2 minutes and by the end of it he was already dying...added him back into the tank and his little body just sank to the bottom.
So this little guy gave up his life so we could see how the group is developing. It's a big change, and I think the pictures justify the loss to get a lot of information on the larval development. Perhaps on future batches I'll "fill in the blanks" as I can. I think I'll wait until at least 20 days before I shoot again.
Here ya go!
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_324_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_324_2.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_324_3.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_324_4.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_324_5.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_324_6.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_324_7.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_324_8.jpg
Matt
I followed up the photographs with a water test...pH 8.2, Ammonia 0.5 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm, Nitrate 0 ppm. I have my ideas where the ammonia could have come from...basically ANYWHERE, but I'm thinking maybe the phytoplankton (if it wasn't sufficiently mature for harvest)?
The larvae that are alive aren't showing any outwards signs of distress, but as a prophalatic I added in 10 drops of PRIME to bind up that ammonia...just to be safe until I can start another round of water removal and slow refilling. I'd really like to not lose anymore larvae from this batch, but I'd be OK with starting over. Granted, if I get lucky I'll have some Apogon leptacanthus larvae to throw in there as well as the next hatch.
FWIW,
Matt
Well, I can't believe I either didn't notice this before or simply didn't remember - Frank Baench has his whole GBG protocol outlined on his website! - http://www.rcthawaii.com/research/5.htm
Anyway, I've set up the first brine shrimp hatcher with 1/4 tsp eggs...we'll see how they go! I'm off to bed!
Matt
Well, somehow the air feed stopped running last night..that's always fun. I added in 8 basters of mixed phytoplankton this morning. It seems that the larvae are still OK. Gotta replace that air pump I guess!
Matt
Things are just looking so-so. 10 more basters of phyto were added...the brine hasn't hatched yet, but should be hatched in a couple more hours...they're going straight in while still nauplii.
FWIW,
Matt
More and more work for an increasingly smaller batch of fry! I'm going to say there are 6, maybe 7 alive this evening. I've removed 6 gallons of the water, and will slowly add 3 freshly mixed gallons back in over the next hour or two. The tank is definitely acting more like a rotifer culture at this point; my only real recourse might be to start straining the tank water to remove rotifers as the larvae get switched over to baby brine (and ultimately cyclopeze). There are still 2 mandarin larvae sharing their tank now.
Matt
Just more followup on the GBG's - most of the newly mixed water was added, followed by 8 basters of phytoplankton mix (that was the last of it AGAIN!). The Brine Shrimp started hatching, so I did an early collection and got the nauplii into the tank. Of the 6 or so remaining larvae most have shown little interest but I did see one take a shot and miss, followed by a successful "hit" that ultimately resulted in the nauplii being spit out. With that observation, I suspect maybe the nauplii are still a bit larger for the larvae.
I'm leaving the lights on, but raising them by about 16" so the larvae can feed overnight if they want to..we'll see what's going on tomorrow!
Matt
Well, I couldn't find more than 3 of the larvae this morning, but those that I did find did NOT look like they were feeding on the brine nauplii, yet the population of nauplii definitely looks "reduced". The rest of them hatched out overnight and are being added to the tank...here's to hoping for the best.
Matt
Kathy55g
08/16/2006, 11:22 AM
Don't forget to rinse them first! Brine shrimp hatching water is nasty!
Luis A M
08/16/2006, 01:37 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7951168#post7951168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kathy55g
Don't forget to rinse them first! Brine shrimp hatching water is nasty!
And teeming with Vibrio!:mad:
And then there were 3...
I don't know guys, but it looks like this batch is coming to an end. What suggestions for improvement on the next batch do you all have? It seems over the last 7 days or so the losses just started "adding up"...a few here, a few there and suddenly there's none left to die ;)
Matt
OK, so I have to take back my count, because a couple of hours ago I was able to find 5. They still don't appear to be feeding on the nauplii, so for now I'm just going to continue adding phytoplankton, and will try the nauplii again in a couple days. (edit - BTW 8 basters of Nannochloropsis just went into the tank, I'm burning through almost 2 liters of phytoplankton a day now).
Matt
Kathy55g
08/17/2006, 06:47 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7952050#post7952050 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Luis A M
And teeming with Vibrio!:mad:
Really? I didn't know that! Even if you decapsulate in bleach?
Luis A M
08/17/2006, 12:19 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7956685#post7956685 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kathy55g
Really? I didn't know that! Even if you decapsulate in bleach?
Sure,like a rich culture medium:D
I haven´t tried decap yet.Currently trying to find out if Vibrio come in the water or from the cysts.
Just another update on the GBG's, I added in the last of the Nannochloropsis (5 basters), another gallon of fresh water (Tank now has about 7.5 gallons in it) and a dosing of Reef Plus (can't hurt!). I can again only find 3 of the GBG larvae, and haven't been able to locate any mandarin larvae at this point.
FWIW,
Matt
The tank was completely crystal clear this evening, so I added in 12 basters of phytomix, heavy on the T-Iso and Tetraselmis, lighter on the Nannochloris and just a touch of Nannochloropsis (I'm in the process of restarting these cultures...they're getting "old" and "non responsive" to harvests).
I can still find 2 larvae for sure, but they're hanging out in the one corner that's nearly impossible to see...I wouldn't be surprised to find more larvae there.
I'm expecting our next hatch soon, probably tomorrow morning, but then I leave for another fly fishing trip! SOOOOO...the current plan is to remove 7.5 gallons or so of the tank water (it's basically full at this point), bring it back up with 5 gallons of mixed water (I mixed it earlier today), add in the babies, add in 1 liter of T-Iso, I liter of Tetraselmis, and MAYBE 1 Liter of Nannochloris, and leave them be until Sunday Evening - Renee will get this weekend off and if my "experiment" doesn't work, well, there should be a hatch the weekend after this one anyway...and hey, I still have two larvae who are now 16.5 days old!
Matt
8-18-06 - we have a hatch! - unfortunately I BLEW IT! The hatch must have happened earlier on between my last post and 10:00 AM when the main lights came on. Shortly after, I noticed the female bangaii hanging out by the goby's den - she made the telltale feeding movement and I knew there were baby gobies around. I turned off the pumps and looked into the goby cave - all I saw were empty egg shells!
I've captured only 5 or 6 GBG larvae this morning, which means I'm late! Maybe the hatch occurred when the actinics came on at 9:00 AM? Maybe earlier? I want to say I delayed the lights coming on with my last "good" collection of a hatch, so I will have to remember to try that again.
Well, the one thing I can say for sure is that I'm going to be building a larval collector - my only real concerns are going to be it's effectiveness with all the current in the tank. I also think the cardinalfish, especially the bangaii's, may come to learn of this being a "food source"...i.e. it may only be effective for a few times before they figure out that at night, when there's this "extra" light, baby fish are going to swarm near it.
My only other option is to stay UP on the nights of an expected hatch, but that ain't gonna fly!
Matt
This morning I could only find ONE of our 2 week+ old GBG larvae - I tried to catch it and somehow lost it in the tank and haven't seen it since (wanted to show a side-by-side comparison between the older larvae and the newly hatched ones).
Anyways, 10 basters of mandarin mix (T-Iso and Tetraselmis) went into the 10 gallon tank along with the 5-6 larvae I caught...they're going to fend for themselves this weekend.
Matt
One last note, important for timing the next hatch - sometime between 11:00 AM and 2:15 PM the GBG's spawned again..little tiny orangeish tan eggs are in the cave again. I think that gives me 6 days to build a larval collector! Well, I'm off to fish!
Matt
Kathy55g
08/18/2006, 02:21 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7964578#post7964578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
8-18-06 - we have a hatch!
Well, the one thing I can say for sure is that I'm going to be building a larval collector - my only real concerns are going to be it's effectiveness with all the current in the tank. I also think the cardinalfish, especially the bangaii's, may come to learn of this being a "food source"...i.e. it may only be effective for a few times before they figure out that at night, when there's this "extra" light, baby fish are going to swarm near it.
My only other option is to stay UP on the nights of an expected hatch, but that ain't gonna fly!
Matt
I've used a larval collector with shrimps and firefish and coral beauty in the tank with the hatching clownfish eggs, and they never went near the larvae in the light.
I've used a larval collector with shrimps and firefish and coral beauty in the tank with the hatching clownfish eggs, and they never went near the larvae in the light.
But the firefish and coral beauty aren't nocturnal, and depending on the shrimp species, they may not be either!
So I'm back, at least 2 larvae from the recent hatch running around in the tank, the tank was CRYSTAL CLEAR. 4 basters of Nanno + 4 basters of T-Iso/Tetraselmis mix went in, and that's it for now!
Matt
All the babies were gone on the morning of the 20th...in other words they didn't last long! I drained the tank this evening and did not find any larvae, so the last observed OLDER larvae in the tank was at 17 days....not too shabby but hardly what I was hoping for.
The tank is going to probably dry overnight. I haven't decided whether I'm going to sterilize with bleach or maybe just soak in freshwater for a day, or both. In any case, I'm going to have to start over.
The other big task that faces me is building a larval collector before the next hatch should occur (later this week).
I need to get SOMETHING raised past settlement AND to a saleable size in the next few months...come 2007 Renee will be NOT WORKING while undergoing student teaching for her masters program, so I'm really hoping I can generate some income from the fish, at least enough to help pay for themselves if not actually make cash. I may even need to let go of some pairs that aren't producing like they should be. In any case, out of ALL the fish that are currently spawning, the GBG's hold the most promise for success and $$$, so they're not going anywhere for the time being and they're going to continue to be one of my main focuses unless something else (like the true percs) get in the game. Not giving up on the mandarins, just needing to focus on success more than "fun" at the moment!
FWIW,
Matt
Kathy55g
08/21/2006, 11:35 PM
Take a deep breath and enjoy not having to feed rotifers for a while.
If you want to get a cash flow going, get yourself a breeding pair of Ocellaris! 4 months to sale for most of the juveniles (except mine!) compared to 6 months or more for the perculas.
Mine are not big enough yet, because I have not fed them enough! When I did this previously, the survivors numbered less than 30. I never had so many fish(60, 150, 150, 300, 150? hatches) before, and I'm STILL learning what they need. I have 3 tanks worth , all different ages, and all the same size range... Sorry to OT.
Ocellaris have a better market, too. However in your neighborhood, JL may have covered it for Ocellaris. And despite having been at this for a year, I have not broken even yet. I do expect to soon, however.
Forgive my rant, I am not usually up this late...
Kathy55g
08/23/2006, 04:06 PM
Key word from your previous post, Matt, is FOCUS.
By the way, the focus on your camera seems to have improved greatly. Really enjoy those pictures and videos through the scope!
Kathy, you're gonna love this latest vid!
This morning I kicked on the main lights at 9:30 and within moments noticed the bangaii cardinalfish feeding on something. There it was, the GBG hatch! This time around, I actually got video of the male spitting out a mouthful of larvae!
Quicktime Vid, approx 2 MB - http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN4635_GBG_hatch.MOV
I collected most of the larvae by scooping, but probably got another 1/3 of my total by siphoning. I dechlorinated and then drained the larval tank (it had been soaking with 10 ML of bleach) and refilled with with larvae and 4 gallons of water from the parental tank (last night the tank got a 2/3 water change as nitrates have gone out of control since I tried switching the Synchiropus onto prepared foods). Anyway, the water is *pretty* clean and there are at least 100+ GBG larvae.
Not sure what my next step is going to be just yet, but I'll keep you posted.
Matt
For those of you who don't want the Vid, here's a slowed down animated gif for ya ;)
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_hatch_stills.gif
MP
Ok, so larval setup - 4 gallons broodstock water in a sterlized tank. To that, I added 1 L T-Iso, freshly harvested. I also harvested 50% of one of my SS-Strain Rotifer cultures...the one that's only doing "so so", and added those straight in. Probably less than 10,000 rotifers, probably more like just 2,000. I harvested 25% of the SS-Strain culture that's doing well, and that portion is currently sitting in 15 ML of water with 2 drops of Selcon...once the selcon is cleared out of the water those rotifers will go in.
And that's that for now!
Matt
Kathy55g
08/25/2006, 11:00 AM
I DO love that latest Vid. Awesome!
K
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7998971#post7998971 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kathy55g
By the way, the focus on your camera seems to have improved greatly. Really enjoy those pictures and videos through the scope!
It's a little trick I figured out...the focus knob on the QX5 isn't all that accurate, but if you push up or down on the microscope's viewing surface you can "fine tune" the focus!
Matt
Well, as of 1:40 p the rotifers had cleared out most of the Selcon so "in they went"!
Matt
2:45 - I harvested a portion (maybe 20%) of an L-Strain / Mini Harp. Cope. co-culture for enrichment. One of my "ideas" last time was that I didn't introduce the L-Strain early enough...this time they'll have plenty of time to "build up", and more importantly, this should give the mini copepods time to populate the tank (I think they can only be beneficial!)...
Matt
L-Strain enrichment was clear, so those rots and copes have been added into the larval tank which is currently about 4.5 gallons full.
Matt
Yes, I'm up late, got stuck with a 2nd wind. So, I figured I might as well do some work. I haven't noticed any DOA's on the GBG larvae yet...nothing on the bottom. I've split off one of my SS-Rot cultures to start a third and in the process harvested another liter or so of SS-Strain for enrichment...they'll get fed in whenever I wake up tomorrow :)
So far, pretty good. I'm REALLY going to try to do a 25% water change EVERY DAY if I can this time around, at least for the first week...then I'm gone and larval care is out of my hands for a few days.
Matt
The enriched SS rotifers went in around 11:00 AM this morning. There are maybe 4-5 dead larvae this morning on the bottom. I'm doing a 1 gallon water change and adding a liter of freshly harvested Tetraselmis in the next hour or so.
Matt
Just another update, late last night I strained approximately 1L of an L-Strain Rotifer culture and set it aside for Selcon enrichment...they were added into the larval tank 12 hours later. So far things look pretty good - I got some great late-night vids of the babies - maybe I'll post them tonight.
(came back just to add in that the larval tank also received an additional 1 gallon of clean water...it's not quite the same as a water change but pretty easy to do since I had the water on hand already!)
Matt
Some more updates - still looks like TONS of larvae running around but the greenwater is definitely getting cleared out now. Last night around 2:00 AM I removed 1 gallon of water from the tank by placing a flashlight at one end (with no other lights on) and then using an airline to siphon from the opposite end. I seived this gallon for it's rotifers which were enriched and fed in around 9:30 AM - somewhere in this process I managed to 'enrich' a GBG larvae..it didn't make it.
Anyway, I'll probably be removing another gallon today and then adding in a fresh gallon plus some phytoplankton...so far so good.
(quick edit, after looking at the tank following my post, I realized it's basically "clear", so 1 L of fresh T-Iso was added in).
Matt
Just keeping up on my records, especially if this batch turns out to be "the one" - I'm slowly dripping in 1 gallon of clean water (ended up not doing a water removal this afternoon) - it's at a slightly lower salinity, so over the next day or two I'll try to bring it down a bit to ease up the burden on those tiny fish bodies.
Matt
Tonight's update - 1 Liter of T-ISO was cleared out of the tank in roughly TWELVE HOURS! The rotifer population simply exploded.
I just finished draining out 1 gallon of tank water (so we're back around 4.5 or so), strained the rotifers out for enrichment with Selcon. One larvae again made it through my airline siphon tube, but I managed to catch him and get him back into the tank before enrichment ;)
To tide the rotifers over and keep them nutritious, 10 basters of the 50/50 Tetraselmis/T-Iso mix (stored in the fridge) was added for the overnight "dim light" time period. My current plan is to remove another gallon of water tomorrow, replace with 1-2 gallons of clean water, and add in the enriched rotifers and generally just hope for the best.
One last observation - last night and now tonight the larvae have been "less responsive" to a single-point light source (flashlight over the tank with all other lights turned out)....they still come, but do not "crowd in" on it as much. It "looks" like I've lost a lot of larvae, but I haven't found ANY bodies...I think the larvae are just spreading out more.
FWIW,
Matt
It's pretty much 2:30 PM - 2 more gallons came out earlier, the enriched rotifers went back in, and 2 clean gallons of water + 10 basters of the 'mandarin mix' phyto are being dripped back in now. Looks like I'm going to have some problems keeping the algae in the tank going forward!
Matt
This is perhaps the last update before I head to Colorado and leave the larvae in another reefer's care for 4-5 days. I just check the tank after feeding in the rotifers I enriched earlier this afternoon...we've had a big die off, I counted about 50 bodies on the bottom. The water is already crystal clear.
I'm going to siphon off the dead ones and probably add in 2-3 more gallons of clean water to diffuse whatever may have caused the problems. I'll have to add some algae too...not sure what yet...I'll post any maintenance but at the moment am somewhat perplexed by this sudden death...most likely the water change had SOMETHING to do with it.
Matt
OK, 3 new gallons of saltwater are going in. Add onto that 1 L of freshly harvested Tetraselmis and roughly 6 baster's worth of stored 'mandarin mix' phyto....the tank needs to be more "green", that I'm sure of. I checked the salinity/specific gravity before piping in the new water, it was at 1.021-1.022...the new water should bring it down to around 1.020.
Looking through my photo cultures, I'm going to have to be judicious in my harvesting tomorrow as most all of them were only done 4-5 days ago...some just don't look ready yet. I'm not sure I have anymore Tetraselmis really read, so tomorrow I think I'm going to put in some Nannochloris and while I'm gone they'll probably get fed a mix of T-Iso and Nannochloropsis.
FWIW,
Matt
Alrighty, last post before I take off and leave the goby babies in Graham's care. I added in 1 L of freshly harvested Nannochloropsis this afternoon. I made up a new batch of "mandarin mix" with a slightly altered makeup - 50% T-Iso, 25% Tetraselmis and 25% Nannochloropsus...this is what will go into the larval tank while I'm away at a rate of 10 basters per day IF the water is clear (so probably every day at this point). Hopefully we'll still have some larvae when I get back, and decapped brine eggs are on their way from DanU, which should be an excellent next step.
Last night, when looking at the larvae, I noticed there are a few that are definitely having "growth spurts"; the size range goes from the smallest to DOUBLE that size on the largest.
FWIW,
Matt
Just got back from CO. Here's a rundown. I know that 10 basters (approx 30 oz.) of phytoplankton were added yesterday (Sunday); beyond that I'm not sure what if anything was done to the larvae yet....I'll have to get a full rundown from my buddy.
The tank was CRYSTAL clear and there are virtually NO rotifers to boot! There are maybe 10 larvae alive, no bodies anywhere to be found. The larvae that remain look VERY strong and healthy and BIG, I think much larger than even the one I had go 17 days last time around. Maybe I'll get lucky?
I'm harvesting out some L-Strain Rotifers for enrichment with selcon, and about an hour ago I added in 10 more basters of "phyto mix" to put some color back into the water for now. That about sums it up!
Matt
Well, 24 basters worth of L-Strain and copepods harvested a couple hours ago and "enriched" went in as a late night snake...another 18 basters worth were harvested and are going to be enriched overnight for addition tomorrow. Looks like enriching at least a portion of the feeds may have helped this time around!
Matt
Kathy55g
09/05/2006, 05:52 AM
How do you do that selcon enrichment? Does the oil gunk up your rotifer sieve? How fast to rotifers take up the selcon. They are stuffed with phyto by 15 to 20 minutes in my hands. Does selcon take longer?
Kathy, I added in another batch of selcon-enriched rotifers this morning.
Basically, I seive the rotifers and then put them into a small jar with a bit of water. 1-2 drops of Selcon goes in, and when the water is pretty clear I simply dump them into the tank....hasn't caused any problems that I'm aware of. I don't know that the selcon takes any longer, but most suggestions for enriching rotifers with that type of stuff suggest 4-6 hours up to 12 hours.
Matt
AT 7:00 this evening I drained out 3+ gallons of water and added in 10 basters of the mandarin mix....so far things look good for the remaining larvae.
I've started on another removal of water, enriching some rotifers etc....I want to get these guys through settlement!!!!
Matt
Back to the Gobies...last night, around 1:00 AM, I added the enriched rotifers. This evening around 10:30 PM the gobies got 1 gallon of newly mixed water and some "straight" rotifers, about 12 basters worth (seived of course) which were probably highly enriched with phytoplankton. Another 12 basters worth went under selcon enrichment an hour ago and will be fed either later tonight or tomorrow morning.
The last headcount was 7, and the largest is probably 1 CM long at this point!
Matt
Kathy55g
09/07/2006, 04:25 AM
Great job, Matt,
how old are these now, and when would one expect settlement to occur?
Kathy, these remaining 7 hatched on 8-25, so they are 3-4 hours shy of 13 days now. I've seen some conflicting information on settlement for this species...RTC points to around 30 days, but most other sources suggest it's a 50-60 day timespan before settlement. At this point they have fully developed tails, dorsal, anal and pectoral fins and SEEM bigger than any of the ones from my prior batch, so I have more confidence in these. The big difference is that I've been enriching more.
While I was gone we obviously lost most of the batch, probably around days 7-10, so I'm not sure what happened there (but I DO know that no Selcon enriched feeds were given during that time). If I get these through, I'll probably do at least one more batch before attempting the next species again, maybe the A. leptacanthus. I'm not sure on the mandarins just yet - still need to work on a hatching method that actually "works" before I feel confident enough to try raising them.
Matt
Luis A M
09/07/2006, 11:02 AM
Matt,just a suggestion.It would help readers if you give the age of the larvae in every post of your breeding logs.You could start with "X dah"and then tell what´s new.Hope you don´t dislike suggestions!;)
ediaz
09/07/2006, 11:08 AM
mine settle at day 26 to 30 at 82 deg. by that I mean they go from the water column to the glass walls.
Ed
Hi Matt, I raised a large number of greenband gobies, (we called them Christmas gobies because of the red and green coloration) back when we were doing neon gobies. I first reared them when we were located in Marathon in the 70s and than again in the 80s when we were on Walker's Cay in the Bahamas. We could collect them right on the rocky shore of the Cay. The north west shore was steep and rocky with many sharp depression carved out of the hard limestone by the rock boring sea urchins, Echinometra virdis. And in each urchin depression, usually occupied by an urchin, there would be one or two of the green banded gobies. They were very difficult to collect because the urchins were so strongly attached to their little cup in the rock that one needed a crowbar to get them out, and then of course, the goby was long gone. So we did collect them with a bit of quindline that stuned them and allowed us to quickly net them. But I digress. We found them more difficult to rear than the neon gobies, mostly because the larvae were somewhat smaller and needed a food organism just slightly smaller than the normal adult size of the rotifer that we fed to the neons. There were two ways to get around this, 1. feed a lot of rotifers along with micro algae so that a culture of rotifers was established in the rearing tank, which allowed the larval greenbands to find the smallest new hatch rotifers, and 2 sieve collected rotifers through, and I forget if we used 53 or 80 micron cloth, to separate the smaller ones and then feed these often. Both methods had their good and bad points. Eventually we stopped rearing this species because the market demand was not there at that time, and it was difficult to get the Bahamain workers to take the necessary care of the cultures that was needed to rear them. The larval period of the greenbands was also longer than that of the neons, which also added to the difficulty of rearing them. But they are neat little gobies and certainly worth the extra trouble it takes to rear them, and now with ss strain of rotifers, it may not be as difficult.
We hatched them the same way we hatched the neons, recorded the day of spawn, kept them in a bare tank with only a clam shell or piece of pvc pipe so we could see the spawn when it occurred, and then, as I recall, they had an 8 day incubation time, but I could be wrong on that, hatched them on the day of hatch by removing the spawn, setting it up in fairly bright lighting in a deep dish under water, and slightly stroking the nest with a long strong feather, usually a sea gull feather. The aggatation caused the eggs to hatch and if they were ready, they hatched off like popcorn. Then the hatched larvae were placed in the larval tank and the clam shell returned to the spawning pair.
Martin
13.5 days ;) - Martin, thanks for all that really interesting information!!! Ed, cool to know. FB has them showing color at day 30...not sure that's going to be the case with mine (at 80F).
So, the update....8 basters of phytomix when in this evening, and I'm currently enriching 76 oz. of seived L Rotifers, plus 1 L of seived SS strain (I'm having to "recharge my SS cultures, so I'm feeding some off to rebloom them). They'll probably go into the tank around 12:00 AM to 2:00 AM, whenever I feel they're ready (or I go to bed). I only took a quick look - have been busy working OUT of home for a change, so they're not getting the attention I'd normally allot!
That's the news from Lake Wobegon
MP
One more quick update this evening. I only counted 5 larvae remaining and did find a couple bodies on the bottom, so we lost a couple. 3/4 gallon of freshly mixed water was just added. The rotifers I had set aside for enrichment had pretty much cleared 2 drops of selcon in an hour, so they went in around 11:00 PM.
I set up the brine hatcher with some decapsulated eggs from SeahorseSource.com - 1/8th tsp seems like PLENTY of nauplii for 5 baby GBG's....if they're even ready to eat them yet!
I'd like to just have no more losses, but it's starting to look like things are going like my last batch...grr...
Matt
OK, so this is technically not a directly related update to the GBG larvae (almost 14 days old) - I had my first hatch on Rusty Gobies (only got them 9 days ago!); 15-20 larvae were added into the larval tank with the larval GBG's this evening - you can follow the new Rusty Goby Thread here - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8101758
MP
OK, this afternoon another clean gallon went into the tank, and another good sized batch of L-Strain rotifers and misc. copepods were enriched with Selcon and added. My last headcount was at 4 larvae for sure.
Matt
Still four larvae now at 14.5 days, but we'll soon be down to 3. One of the remaining larvae has developed a very large gas bubble in it's abdomen and is stuck floating at the surface upsidedown, struggling and pretty much unable to feed.
I added in maybe 100 brine nauplii this evening, initially the 3 healthy larvae showed now interest. None-the-less I'm hatching larger offering for tomorrow night...we'll see how it goes.
BTW, earlier this evening 50+ mandarin larvae were added to the tank...the Rusty Goby larvae from the night before have all disappeared.
One more BTW, I'm expecting another GBG hatch tomorrow...they'll probably go by the wayside as Renee's folks are in town...not sure I'm going to have the time to collect the larvae and dump them in the larval tank; then again it probably can't hurt at this point!
FWIW,
Matt
OK, so the larval tank is going strong...I still have 4 GBG larvae and it's now 15.5 days (right?). I added in 10 basters of phytoplankton (40% T-Iso, 40% Tetraselmis, 20% Nannochloropsis) and a couple thousand newly hatched brine shrimp nauplii (hereafter Baby Brine Shrimp or BBS since most of us know what it is). The floating one from my prior headcount was dead, which means that I missed one earlier on as we still have 4 viable larvae this evening.
So far there's been NO hatch on the GBG's...although they look darn near ready. They'll probably hatch tonight or early tomorrow morning (Which I won't be around for) - no worries; hopefully by the next hatch or two the remaining GBG larvae will be large enough to occupy a net breeder or something for their remaining growout.
I'm going to enrich some L and SS-Strain rotifers this evening and add them in as well...probably later tonight but possibly first thing in the morning.
FWIW,
Matt
If my math is right we're at 16.5 days or so...
Another 10 basters of phytoplankton was added this evening - my best headcount was 2 healthy, and 1 with a large gas bubble in the abdomen (OK, so this has happened AGAIN? Not sure why at this time, but I first noticed it when I started to feed BBS).
We had a GBG hatch sometime today...I came home around 5:00 PM to find only 4 GBG larvae still in the tank DESPITE having left the Metal Halide lighting off (hoping it might postpone the hatch). So this batch is a bust, and if the timing ends up correct, our next hatch will be on a Monday (which is when I'm usually at the office), so it will be 2 weeks before I'm around to collect my next batch of larvae (unless I build a larval collector in the time between).
I'm just waiting and watching at this point.
Matt
aomont
09/10/2006, 07:56 PM
Have Kathy´s larval collector a try ! It deffinetly has worked with clowns and can be of help to GBGs.
Anderson.
I have a few designs going around in my head, but the big problems are:
1. Main Tank Water Current - it's pretty strong with both the standard NC24 water pump PLUS a UV sterilizer pump.
2. Predation - The tankmates may STILL make short work of most of the larvae before they ever have a chance to find the larval collector.
I have a week to come up with something, or I'll have to wait until hatching dates start falling on days I work at home again. The advantages of being around are that all the cardinalfish hide in the rockwork while I'm collecting, and I can have the pumps turned off for the hour or so it takes to collect...really handles those aforementioned problems!
ONE of the things I'm toying with is that I have some 300 micron material that I may try placing in the overflow chamber...this may be enough to catch any larvae that make it past the predators in the tank, as long as they don't get stuck against the filter material and crushed by the water flow....I could then just collect them from the overflow chamber :)
- One more larval tank update - I siphoned the bottom and removed 2 gallons of tank water; current volume is about 6 gallons. More phyto will go in tomorrow AM, perhaps along with some enriched rotifers, and tomorrow night I may have the opportunity to "finish" the water change with a gallon or two of fresh water.
Matt
aomont
09/10/2006, 11:56 PM
Sometimes I forget it´s a reef and WAY more challenging
Does the overflow drain to a sump, doesn´t it ? Any chance to use the 300 micron to make a net breeder or something the overflow water goes in ?
My point is that at the overflow box the current may be too much and the sump may give more space for the babies to stay in a slower flow and possibly less bruises. I was thinking on this to post to that other thread on collecting pelagic eggs (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=925877))
Maybe the trip from tank to sump by the overflow is too much excitment for them though... who knows ? :confused: It seems to be choosing the less of two evels and the answer will only show after trials, unfortunately.
Wish luck, as always ! :thumbsup:
Anderson.
Anderson, no sump available in my tank, it's a 24 gallon Nano Cube running hoodless with a 150 Watt Finnex Fixture above, and a surface skimmer attached to the integrated filtration's intake - VERY limited options and yes, it's a full blown reef to boot! I'm limited to in tank, hang-on, or "1st chamber" as possible locations for larval "extractors" ;)
At least we know that GBG larvae are positively phototrophic, unlike Apogon leptacanthus and "Rusty Goby" larvae which will be even more difficult to collect in good numbers. Mandarin eggs are easy in one respect, they FLOAT and at least in my main mandarin tank, nothing tries to eat the eggs (can't be sure about that if/when I get pair #2 up and running).
Back to the GBG's, they are PRETTY strong swimmers, and initially they make a mad dash to the surface when the male spits them out. ONE thing I'm thinking of is some sort of "cone" setup that is placed towards the surface above the cave where the GBG's lay their eggs...that way all the larvae would run towards the surface, straight into the "intake cone" of whatever larval extraction device I can come up with. From there it's just a matter of creating flow-through and preventing the larvae from being returned to the tank. That's my working premise so far, but I'm not really sure how to construct it yet!
Matt
Matt
aomont
09/11/2006, 12:55 AM
Not suggesting you take one now, but do you have any photo of tank for above or showing the filtration scheme ?
Anderson.
Anderson, I'll try at some point but for now consider this:
The filtration first overflows (surface skimming) down into downflowing first chamber, chamber 1, which is filled with larger, coarse sponges for mechanical filtration (also produces tons of amphipods). Water exits at the bottom and upwells into 2nd chamber, which is filled (from bottom up) with ceramic ring media, activated carbon, purigen, and live rock rubble (for making frags mostly). This 2nd middle chamber flows into Chamber #3 by spilling over...at the bottom of chamber 3 is a small powerhead which returns the water to the tank, along with the tank's heater.
----
Update on the larvae - we still have THREE GBG larvae who are all just about 17 days old at this point. This morning the SS Rotifers were added in following enrichment, along with 10 basters of the "mixed phytoplankton" (still 40/40/20). 1 Larvae has developed the gas bubble in the abdomen and is struggling to stay off the surface or at least stay upright. A 2nd larvae is feeding close to the surface. The last larvae (also the largest) is now feeding pretty close to the BOTTOM of the tank, maybe 1/2 to 1" above the bottom.
FWIW,
Matt
17.5 Days and I have 1 confirmed GBG larvae remaining. I found one body this evening, and earlier on I counted 2 healthy larvae. Now I can only find the one and he's freakin' out, ramming himself into the surface of the water and overall just not looking all that good. None the less I added in 10 basters of the "40/40/20" phytoplankton mix and have some L-Strain+Copes set up for enrichment.
I'll have to reread this log at some point soon, as it SEEMS like I had the same basic experience trying to raise these this 2nd time around. Started with a big hatch, most made it to a week or so, then massive die off, then slowly the remaining ones disappeared a couple at a time.
If that really ends up being the case, what are your thoughts?
Matt
Hi Matt, I don't know. I've seen that kind of response to captive rearing conditions in some larvae at various times in the past. Obviously, somethings wrong. The obvious possiblilities are bacterial and/fungal problems, nutritional inadequacies, and water quality problems. It could be any of these. but I would hang my hat first on nutrition. You might try not enriching the rotifers and copes. Possibibly too much oil in the food..... ? This will sometimes cause a liver degeneration that they can't come back from. Then pay more attention to water quality, siphon the bottom more frequently, change water more often... Also use considerable light over the tank. I found, with the dottybacks, that what might be considered too much light, made a real positive difference in the vitality of the larval culture. Also try to eliminate all contact with biological filtration in the water. Try not to use water initially that has been under biological filtration (unless you sterilize it with chlorine first) at least for the first 10 to 12 days. Good Luck,
Martin
ediaz
09/12/2006, 08:31 AM
I use a lot of light with them, like I mentioned to you earlier.
I use the selco, but I rinse the rotifer before I feed them and enrich them for 12-16 hours before,
I change 2 gallons in a ten gallon tank every day from day 4 on.
I siphon the tank from day 13 and on since before then I will suck a few larvae doing it.
Ed
Those are some good points for the next batch! Thanks guys!
Matt
Kathy55g
09/12/2006, 10:40 AM
Thanks Ed,
Unfortunately, we were not in on the conversation earlier. How much light do you use? More than with clownfish? If so, why is it different?
Kathy
ediaz
09/12/2006, 10:54 AM
If i raise them in 10/20 gal. tank, I use a 18" to 24" lamp very close to the surface, If I use a black tub I use a 150 watts halogen lamp.
Why? i don't know, if the light is not strong enough they just stay at the bottom and waste away, if the light is strong it keeps them at the surface eating right where the food is. I don't suddenly turn lights off either.
Ed
Luis A M
09/12/2006, 12:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8127066#post8127066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mwp
I'll have to reread this log at some point soon, as it SEEMS like I had the same basic experience trying to raise these this 2nd time around. Started with a big hatch, most made it to a week or so, then massive die off, then slowly the remaining ones disappeared a couple at a time.
If that really ends up being the case, what are your thoughts?
Matt
Matt,I don´t mean to sound pessimistic,but that is the typical outcome of most larval rearing attempts:(
The ugly fact remains that after so many years and efforts,we hobbyists are still unable to raise any larva other than clowns.
We can only occasionally succeed,and then in very small numbers.
There is one basic question we must answer:
IS IT THE FOOD,OR IS IT THE ENVIRONMENT?
I still could not find out and had periodically switched from one to the other. :confused:
And even if never mentioned,LUCK has a lot to do here.When one tries something many times,sometimes a fortuitous combination of factors,many beyond our understanding,could make a particular run,the lucky one.Only that we perhaps won´t be able to repeat it!.
Our best bet is to work together here,posting and sharing experiences.This is a most powerful searching machine,never had before.And in many aspects more useful and faster than academic research!;)
Well, just prior to 18 days, when I check this AM, the last of our GBG larvae had kicked the bucket. Here's what I CAN say - 18 DAYS - I must entirely agree with Luis that it's either environment or diet. The fact that the last few larger ones developed air bubbles in their abdomens must be a clue towards something.
Ed, I've got the light down - 18" 15 watt resting right on top of the tank. At night I simply lift it up so it's at least 18" or so overhead...I left it on 24/7 and each morning put it back on the top of the tank.
I'm not discouraged on the GBG's yet; this most recent time around they went for basically 5 days without my personal care and that seems to be the time when most died off (and weren't receiving enriched foods).
I'm probably going to try another batch not from next Monday's hatch but probably the one following that (hopefully it'll be a Tuesday hatch either this batch or the next one). I still have baby mandarins in the tank, so I'm leaning way from "environment" and last night I managed to capture 10 peppermint shrimp larvae and add those as well...they're still around, so without even water testing I can comfortably say the WATER is OK ;)
18 days is my personal record to beat...far better when it was 4, 5 or 6!
Matt
ediaz
09/12/2006, 01:30 PM
18 days not bad,
Try enriching for more than ten hours or what i call "super enrichment", leave the rots for 12 hours in the selco, rinse and leave another 12 hours with selco again, rinse and feed the larvae,
How do you remove water for changes?
The light should not be on 24/7, at nite raise the lamp and turn a nite light on( you can get those at Jewel Osco with the preffered card;-) ) then turn the main lite off, that will avoid the shock. if you turn the light off suddenly they freak out, try it, and with dottybacks they just die so with the gobies I am not taking any chances. in the morning turn the main lite on, the nite lite off and then place the main lite on the tank.
I am building a Dottyback assembly line, basically 20 10 gallon tanks with different drains and water imputs(system and new) to deal with the antibiotics, O3 and UV and a ballast dimer system for lite transition from day to nite. At hatcheries dottybacks and gobies are raised under sunlight and they don't experience such problems.
I tried the outdoor approach, in the summer it boils in the winter it freezes, got to love MI.
Ed
Ed, 1 question, are you doing Greenwater for Gobies, or only feeding enriched rotifers and "that's that" so to speak? My main reason for 24/7 lighting at some level was to reduce pH shock/O2 depletion during the night and also to allow the larvae to feed 24/7 - it seemed to help early on. Perhaps the simple aeration of the tank is enough to counteract the pH/O2 issues.
Matt
ediaz
09/12/2006, 01:41 PM
I add a liter of whatever is ripe in the morning, along with the enriched rots at 9am and 6pm.
Ph what is that? I don't own a Ph test or any other, I never test my water not even when at C-quest, ammonia will always raise, change water, nitrates will acumulate, change more water.
A simple airstone with a gentle flow or a open line with a slow bubble count is enough to keep them well.
larvae needs to rest thats my interest in finding a way of having them in dark avoiding shock.
Ed
9-26-06, 11:35 AM, I've just noticed a GBG hatch...looks like it's still in progress. This batch is just gonna have to sit back and be FOOD as I'm tied up with leptacanthus larvae! I really need that 2nd 10 gallon tank - someone tell me how to convince Renee, please! ;)
Matt
Kathy55g
09/26/2006, 12:10 PM
You may have to wait until you can show her the money. Hey, it worked for me! But then, I have an exceptionally wonderful spouse!
JUMPIN UP AND DOWN FOR JOY!
11-1-06, 10:00 AM, we have a GBG HATCH!
I have an empty tank, and a clownfish larval tank full of SS Rotifers ;) Looks like one tank is getting a quick cleaning and another is getting a water change - TIME TO TRY GBG's AGAIN!!!!
Matt
Alrighty! Starting off with an empty 10 gallon, approximately 1.5 gallons of brood tank water, and now slowly siphoning in water from the larval clownfish tank through a 120 micron sieve (taking out the brine shrimp, leaving the phyto and SS rotifers to go through).
Of course I'll be adding phyto later today. Ed, anyone who's done these, what's the absolute best protocol. I want to beat 18 days this time around...looking to make it to meta with at least 20-30 fish.
Matt
1 Aside Note - I literally haven't noticed any GBG hatches SINCE the last one I recorded. I'd checked a few times during October for eggs, but I think they may have moved where they're spawning, even only an inch, out of view. God bless the bangaiis - they're my "hatch alarm"...tipped me off to a Peppermint Shrimp hatch last night too, not to mention the hermit crab hatch last week...
Matt
Following the note from Ed above, 1 L of Tetraselmis was added to the larval tank. I'd also seived roughly 2 gallons down from the clownfish tank, so there should be a fair number of SS rotifers running around. I'm going to make a concious effort to selcon enrich at least a portion of the tank's rotifers every day, that certainly didn't hurt last time around!
Matt
Just some updates - so far they larvae seem to be doing OK. Yesterday I added around 800 ML of T-Iso, and just now I noticed the tank had pretty well cleared out, so 1L of Tetraselmis went in again. Some appear to be feeding well, whereas others are looking kinda skinny. No doubt time will tell.
Matt
This afternoon I seived 2 gallons of rotifers out of the larval tank for enrichment. I then replaced the water back into the tank, and again seived out 2 gallons of rotifers, only this time they went down the drain and the water/phyto back into the tank. Trying to control rotifer poplutions as well as provide some enriched rots...that's the word.
Matt
So we're on the evening of the 6th day with the GBG larvae. I've been pretty good about dosing in a full 1L of ripe phyto, whatever happens to be ready that day (so it's been kinda skewed towards T-Iso and Tetraselmis, but I have the actual records in case this batch ends up being "the batch" and I want to go back).
In a nutshell, all the rotifers seem to have disappeared today. The tank is bursting at the seams with copepods, most all smaller harps. I harvested a bit of L-Strain from my cultures and enriched...it went into the tank and the larvae started takin' 'em down in no time. I may need to innoculate with L-Strain a couple more times to get the rotifer levels back up to where I *think* they should be. Overall, it seems like we have a VERY good number of larvae at this time....they're pretty cloaked in phyto, so it's not like I can get a headcount.
The BIG surprise - there's a larval Peppermint Shrimp in the tank!. I don't know how I got it in there, but man, it's HUGE. I made a very half-a s s attempt to rear them in the past, but this time around it looks like I'll have one coming up without any problems. My bigger concern is whether he'll turn on the GBG larvae?!
That's the news on the GBG front...
Matt
11-9-06, 9:25 AM - We have a hatch! - sure enough, baby GBGs running around in the tank moments after I kicked the main lights on, and as always (it seems), the Bangaii's feeding when I hadn't FED yet tipped me off.
Since I already have a tank full of GBG larvae from last week, these are just being left to fend for themselves.
Matt
So we're past 11 days and there are some pretty large larvae in the tank. All that I've seen look healthy. Back on Friday I added in some more L-Strain rots, as the tank was not "clearing out" but has been consistently staying green. I've drastically reduced the amount of phyto I've been adding in, focusing on that "fine balance" that seems to be going on. 7 more days and we'll have tied the record for survival!
Matt
This morning things are looking pretty good in the GBG world...the water has finally cleared out a bit and I can tell there are at least 10-20 big larvae running around - I'd have to say around 1 CM in length on the largest of them, but that's pretty much a guestimate. The peppermint shrimp hitchhiker seems to be doing well too.
I wish I could get a better headcount, but the water IS still green (can't see through the 10 gallon end to end) and the larvae still are clear (making them hard to spot).
Keeping my finger's crossed and adding some phyto this morning ;)
Matt
So we're almost at 15 days now. This evening I fed a small amount of selcon enriched brine nauplii (BBS) and sat and watched for a while. ONE, out of the 40 or 50+ larvae has started to feed on them, so it's only a matter of time before the rest follow suit.
HOWEVER, in watching the larvae go about their business, they've become exceptionally proficient COPEPOD hunters. The tank has a lot of tiggerpods, a very small population of A. tonsa, as well as my unidentified tiny harp. cope. Suffice it to say that while not thick, there are always a small to fair number of copepods that are swimming in the water column or at the surface, and if they are about the size of BBS, they are getting chased down over a lenght of sometimes several INCHES and then being attacked the moment they pause to rest.
That's right, 40, maybe 50 or more larvae in the tank at 14.75 days...we're doing EXTREMELY better than my earlier attempts. I've been RELIGIOUS about adding in 1L of Pnyto per day, following Ed's recommendation of using whatever is "ready" and so far it seems to be paying off. I have done NO water changes OR bottom cleanings since the introduction of these larvae...at least none that I recall at the moment. The rotifer population IS starting to get thick now, I suspect perhaps in partial result of a shift in what the GBGs are feeding on, so removing rotifers may soon be an issue.
At this point, I don't want to start getting my hopes up, but I can't help but be a little optimistic!
FWIW,
Matt
So I looked back through this thread and typically I stopped taking pictures somewhere around 12 or 13 days. Seeing as how I have a batch of 40-50 this time around instead of a "handful", I decided it was time to potentially "sacrifice" one just to see what development was going on.
Without any additional description, in a nutshell what's included below are shot via the QX5 at 10X, 60X and 200X, and I've included the scale on some of them. I have also adjusted some for contrast and levels to bring out the details a bit more.
The little bugger went back into the tank and did not instantly die, he's definitely freaked out, but maybe, just maybe, he'll recover?
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_2_60x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_3.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_4_60x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_5_60x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_6_60x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_7_200x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_8_200x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_9_200x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_10_200x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_11_200x.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_375_12.jpg
FWIW,
MP
BTW, approximate length at this time is around 6mm.
Matt
One last note...earlier today I had to pull out and seive 2 gallons at 53 microns to get some rotifers for a guy with new clownfish (instant feed). Well, the tank is still CHOCK FULL of rotifers and uneaten baby brine, so this evening, just before bedtime, I've siphoned out another 3 gallons, seived through 53 micron, and returned the effluent water. We're definitely at that stage where the rotifer population has bloomed, but as of this evening the water still has a good green tinge to it, so we're not at the point where 1 day will totally clear the tank to "crystal". I'm hoping more and more of the GBG's will start taking the enriched BBS...it'll be a whole new ballgame if I make it past 18 days (current record). Should be well past it come Monday :)
Matt
We're getting awefully close to tying the last larval rearing "record" (personal record) on GBG's and there's still 40, 50, maybe more in the larval tank. They're still getting phyto as often as I can put it in there, and a couple dosings of enriched BBS per day..it appears that 50% or more are now taking them.
However, I should note that there is a definite and extreme preference for COPEPODS...the larvae usually pass over the nauplii, but any copepod swimming in the water column immediately grabs their attention. They'll follow them over great distances, sometimes striking, sometimes giving up. With that in mind, more Tiggerpods are gonna go into this tank sometime Sunday.
One last note on larval behavior, they are doing this new striking behavior with increased frequency over the last couple days. The larvae sight a prey item, bend their tail 90 degrees, then thrust forward to strike. I have not seen this behavior in any prior GBG batches, although I recognize it from Clownfish rearing. We've definitely reached some sort of new stage in their development.
This evening, I seived 3 gallons of the tank water and returned it (23 micron seive) to help lower the rotifer population. Rotifers are to the point where they are probably not greatly needed but still being fed on. I'm hesitant to do anything "different" at this point (i.e. cessation of phyto dosings, water changes).
That's the news. Come Monday we are into new GBG territory, probably worthy of another round of microscope photographs!
Matt
c'est ma
11/19/2006, 03:17 AM
Hi Matt!
Just a lurker checking in to let you know how much I'm appreciating this thread. I have a pair of gbg's that just started breeding about 8 days ago. Two spawns so far...I haven't been able to save them yet as the whole phyto/roto culture thing needs to be established...but your record is a real inspiration!
Thanks!
--Diane
We're at 18 days or so now, and I sat down and did a Seachem water test just to see what things were like. Here's the results:
pH - 8.2
Alkalinity - 4 meq/L
Free Ammonia - 1 ppm
Total Ammonia - > 3ppm
Nitrite - 1 ppm
Nitrate - 0 ppm?
The larvae do not seem bothered in the least by this water quality! I may pull one this evening, if not then definitely tomorrow, for another round of microscope photos.
FWIW,
Matt
aomont
11/19/2006, 11:06 PM
What about salinity and temp Matt ?
Anderson.
I said I did a "Seachem Test" LOL! Didn't bother with Calcium, Iodide, Phosphate, Iron, Temp or Salinity/Specific Gravity. I'll get you what I can do quickly ;)
Temp - 81.6
Salinity - 1.025 / 33 ppt
Matt
aomont
11/19/2006, 11:36 PM
Yeah... just read it now. :( We have suggested you so much work that I don´t feel that guilty ! :)
Looking forward to record breaking !!!! And very well broken !
Anderson.
WE'VE BEAT THE RECORD! - currently 19 days, 2 hours post hatch! - as promised, PIX! The one I pulled seems to have held up, but just barely. Upon returning it to the tank it swirled, regained its bearings, and has been making mad dashes around the surface. So, I'm going to continue to be very hesitant to take additional larval pictures unless significant milestones are reached (i.e. might take another set of pictures the Tuesday after Thanksgiving). From what I can gather, it appears that they are still readily feeding on ROTIFERS; that's the only way I can explain the bright green gut.
458 hours post hatch, this one measured 7mm in length.
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_458_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_458_2.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_458_3.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_458_4.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_458_5.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_458_6.jpg
I've pulled 3 gallons of water from the tank, and based on last night's water test I believe a slow drip of 3 gallons of clean water back into the tank (water change) will not be detrimental to the larvae. Beforehand I might seive a gallon or two for rotifers and do a selcon enrichment on that for reintroduction this evening - can't hurt.
On a totally unrelated front, as of last night our peppermint shrimp larval hitchhiker is still around and growing like crazy - I'm going to have to try a batch of these in the future!
Matt
Just a quick cross-post - This evening (1:00 AM, Nov. 21), I noticed two larvae with strange looking growths on their abdomens. I've been having a general ICH problem that I thought I had licked, but it's reared it's ugly head again in the last couple days. What I don't know is whether the growths on the 2 larvae is ICH or fused ventral fin suction disks showing up?!
I've posted the info and pictures in another thread in the hopes of getting some immediate and knowledgeable responses. View it here - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=977505
FWIW,
Matt
20 days, 3 hours old! - last night as mentioned in the other thread, I found 2 suspect larvae and pulled them...the jury is still out as to whether the "growths" on them were bacterial or ICH, but in any case, they were immediately culled. Today, as with every day to date, another 1L of fresh phyto was added (today they actually got Tet, T-Iso and Nanno) as well as selcon enriched brine shrimp nauplii. Also, a dose of Marine Max (probiotics & antioxidants, aka. 'homeopathic' disease preventative) was added to the tank, along with a dosing of Reef Plus and Reef Iodide following the addition of 3 clean gallons of water yesterday.
So that's where were at. No new bumps or protrusions were noticed on the larvae today, hopefully just a random occurance.
20 days!!! The longest of the "infected" pair measured out at 9 mm last night.
Matt
So this evening I dosed with Maracyn II, just to be on the safe side! Got my Ammonia Alert badges today...the GBG larvae shows somewhere between "safe" and "alert", while the copepod tank (empty larval tank) is running at "safe".
FUN FUN.
Almost 3 weeks of GBG larval survival. At least one LFS was VERY excited to hear about these guys ;)
Matt
11-26-06 - we're at 25 days+, almost at 26 days, and the larvae are doing GREAT! I witnessed the takedown of a significantly older brine shrimp that had grown up in the tank. Meanwhile, daily dosings of phyto have continued. This evening, a 3 gallon water change was performed. Things are looking GREAT at this point. I might be willing to sacrifice one for another round of pics in the next few days - they're "HUGE"!
Matt
One other HUGE "BTW" - FIRST DORSAL FINS HAVE SHOWN UP ON THE LARGER LARVAE! - as far as I've been able to discern, the REAR dorsal fin (#2) develops in parallel with the anal fin. Only as of today can I see some larvae running around with BOTH, aka. 2, aka TWO dorsal fins!
Experienced Breeders of GBG's, (aka. ED), how much longer do I have to go?
Matt
OMG - VENTRAL FIN SUCTION CUP ON ONE OF THE LARGEST!
They're OFFICIALLY GOBIES!
Matt
So this morning we've come to 26 days post hatch! They got their usual dosing of phytoplankton and baby brine shrimp. There were a couple larvae that were turning white and swirling, something that is a sign of stress typically. I gave the tank another dosing of Maracyn II, just to be safe.
That's the latest news - I'm basically now waiting for additional growout, settlement and adult coloration to set in...maybe another 30 days at most?
Matt
bigcdc
11/27/2006, 12:40 PM
Glad to hear you are having success, I've gone through and read all of your post and I have to say that I enjoy reading your post of updates
~CC
Luis A M
11/27/2006, 12:51 PM
Congrats and good luck with them!:) Settlement and adult coloration must be around the corner.We´ll put the champagne in the fridge...
Could this species be another first time?.(unless ORA comes again saying they did it first but oops,didn´t tell:D )
Luis, actually, ProAquatix did them. My broodstock pair is Captive Bred, most likely from them before their big move.
I think Bill Addison may have already raised this species, and may have been one of the first, and Frank B. has done them as well, and I think Ed has too ;)
But, they would be species #2 under MY PERSONAL belt.
Matt
Luis A M
11/27/2006, 01:25 PM
Right.I was thinking in rusties.
Well, Rusties will be waiting a while...they're beyond low priority at the moment. Once I get the GBG's through to juveniles with proper coloration and feeding well, basically to that point where you just know you've conquered the species, I'm going to give the Apogon leptacanthus one more shot. Then back to the Mandarins, then Red Scooter Blennies, and then the Rusties...Oh and throw any other clowns that decide to start breeding pretty much to the front of the list as well...for the first half of '07 financial return is more important than tinkering with the Mandarins (but we'll see). Had mild success with Percs (a 1 or 2 on the scale of easy rearing), now the GBG's are looking good (maybe a 4 or 5), and then maybe I'll come back to conquer the Leptacanthus (maybe a 6 or 7) and then finally I'll be ready to tackle Mandarins (10).
Matt
Just another quick update - I talked with Joe L. (RPI) about the GBG's...according to his experience they are very close to settlement, which is 30 days or so. Adult coloration should start to come in around 35 days. FWIW this roughly matches up with some of the dates given on Frank B's website with regards to some photos of GBG's that he has raised.
Man, talk about being "close"!
Matt
SETTLEMENT at 27 DAYS! - I turned on the lights and fed the tank brine nauplii just a moment ago (right before 10:00 AM) and noticed that one GBG larvae is actually acting like a GBG, suction cupped to the back wall of the tank vs. swimming in the water column! WHOOOOOOOO HOOOOOO!
My last headcount was approximately 35. Of that, 1 is now settled. 6 or so look kinda sickly (the pale whitish coloration). 6 more look completely ready to settle at any moment. The rest are somewhere in between.
NAILED IT!
Matt
Make that TWO that have settled - I noticed a 2nd one on the back wall ;)
Matt
First Picture of a newly settled GBG larvae, now about 27.5 days old
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN7305_GBG_27.5.jpg
Matt!
Kathy55g
11/28/2006, 09:37 PM
Very exciting!
Kmiec123
11/28/2006, 10:20 PM
Very cool Matt!!!
Well, it's the evening of the 28th, we're heading towards day 28 by 10:00 AM tomorrow morning, and the tank was completely cleared out of phyto, so in went 1L of Nanno to keep things enriched as the larvae continue to feed and head towards settlement. An interesting development this evening, as I sat and watched, the larger larvae would approach the glass, examine it, follow the copepods that scurry around on it, and sometimes orient their ventral surfaces to the glass. They're not actually "parking" themselves, but I wouldn't be surprised if by morning there are several more that have settled out.
The tank really could use a diluting of rotifers, or even a partial water change, but witih the larvae going through settlement, now is just "not the time"! I just have to hope that vigorous aeration and phyto keep things going smoothly for the next 48 hours or so.
Matt
28 days, the first hints of adult coloration are visible...in other words - WE HAVE LIGHT GREEN STRIPES!.
I WISH the macro mode still worked on my camera, but it doesn't, and I'm not about to risk our first colored up goby.
It's also worth mentioning that there were 2 gobies parked right on the front glass when the lights came on this morning...one took off and "reverted" to swimming in the water column. Basically I counted "3" sitting on the glass this AM. The strange part is that the "colored up" one is spending a LOT of time swimming in the water column.
I'd say we've had 4-5 deaths over the last couple days as well.
FWIW,
Matt
OOPS - guess there are TWO showing adult coloration!!!! Not surprisingly they're probably the 2 that I noticed first "settled" yesterday. Despite this adult coloration, they do still spend a fair amount of time in the water column!
Matt
Did I mention they both have the horizontal red "eye stripe" as well?! ;)
Matt
Anyone have a clue as to when I can start trying to get these guys off BBS and onto frozen foods? ;)
Matt
ediaz
11/29/2006, 11:27 AM
I am so scared when i see replies to your threads, LOL
Sorry did not see this,
For my experience they attach to the glass at about 20-25 days and on with some still pelagic.I don't have my records here but they take a long time to get on artemia. I would not change a thing of what your doing but once they are on artemia theres no need to add phyto, but keep using it if it works what the hell.
Here is the bad thing form my experience and just my expirience gobies take a long time to go to dead foods, i keep mine on artemia for a long time, another thing is that with artemia they grow faster for a fish that takes a long time to grow anyway, if you have otohime start playing with it if you have filtration.
The first one to raise them was Frank, the first one to do it comercially was Bill, and sold lots. Proaquatix raised poop, those were produced at C-quest when they were leasing the place.
I was breeding them for months until my female decided to jump, not gonna do it anymore, theres no money on them.
Congrats, well done, welcome to the very, very exclusive club.
Was about friggin time!!!!!!
Ed
Thanks for the insight and history Ed ;) Just waiting for my desktop to restart itself and I'll be posting up a picture I shot with the QX5 in "handheld" mode. The colored up one I got to shoot was somewhere around 10-11 mm at 28 days. Looks like mine are running a few days behind the growing curve.
Matt
Here it is, the proof is in the pudding!
Greenbanded Goby, 28 days, 1 hour old!
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_1681_1.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/GBG_1681_1_10x.jpg
Matt
ediaz
11/29/2006, 11:59 AM
Nice pic of a GBG at 28 days 1 hour 15 minutes!
For next batch at this stage add one of those cheap corner filters with floss and carbon to clear the water up and help with the water changes(don't tell anybody). For this batch keep doing the same.
Ed
Well, as of this point there was .5 L T-Iso and .5 L Tetraselmis added to the water about an hour before the photos...trying to keep all the brine nauplii and older ones "enriched".
Don't want to screw up meta...I've literally only done a small handfull of water changes prior to this, and will put off the next one as long as I can to not cause undue stress.
Ed, if I'm not supposed to tell anyone, why you posting it here? ;)
Matt
Luis A M
11/29/2006, 01:07 PM
Bravo Matt!You made it!How it feels?
Funny colour distortion,they look like albino!
It feels GREAT Luis. I gotta say, that little bugger is stayin' RIGHT HERE to make our next pair (short goby lifespans and all). I am totally in love...definitely rivals any clownfish baby for cuteness (provided you like GBG's in the first place I guess). Of course, I can hardly wait for the next 10 or 20 to settle out...can't wait to have a TANKFUL of those!
Seeing a 1/3" baby GBG REALLY has me giddy over the future prospect of tiny mandarins ;)
Matt
Quick update, as we're just past 28.5 days, I bit the bullet and did a water change.....more of a "removal" and dilution. 5 gallons out, including the bottom completely cleaned up (lots of small brown "piles" on the bottom). 2 clean gallons going in back in; total tank volume will be around 6 when it's all done. There's just so many rotifers and brine shrimp in various stages of development - things need to be a little more under control while I'm away this weekend and Renee is in charge.
Our 2 fully settled larvae are of course spending most all their time in the one corner of the tank that you literally can't observe...there are still a good 5-10 that look like they could settle at any moment, and 2 more have developed faint eye stripes over the course of the day.
That's the news!
Matt
AHA! I found 'em. At any given moment, there are typically 4 or 5 larvae in the far back corner of the tank, visible only from the other end of the tank. Now that the water is a bit clearer, the BEST count I had was SEVEN (7) juvies sitting on the glass all at the same time. It seems like they're "learning" to use that suction cup. They also seem a bit more frantic about swimming, and definitely seem to prefer a stronger current area. Furthermore, the larvae seem unaffected by the rather strong stream of bubbles flowing out of the airstone...I've witnessed several trips "through" the bubbles ala Mt. Wanahakalugi...they seem totally unphased.
So, my best count is 7 settled larvae, only 2 showing adult coloration at this time, about 28.7 days post hatch.
Matt
gws294
11/30/2006, 11:35 PM
Just finished this great story... Congrats... Matt your dedication is incredible. Thanks for sharing, will be lurking.
Geoff
c'est ma
12/01/2006, 12:09 AM
Just wanted to chime in with my congrats, too, Matt! This has all been very inspiring. Love those last pictures with the adult coloring!
I just got my fourth batch of gbg babies tonight--my pair has been producing every 6-7 days...
--Diane
Well Diane, I think the SS rots may have made the big difference with these and my letpacanthus, so try to procure some! Other than that, was just making sure to absolutely keep up with the daily morning 1L phytoplankton addition, following Ed's advice. Needless to say it worked - all day there were 6 GBG's settled and hanging out on the sides of the tank...2 with adult coloration. I haven't checked yet this evening...I bet there's a few more by morning!
Matt
29.7 days or so - 8 are now settled!
BTW Diane...I think having a good copepod population in the tank helped. I have tiggerpods, as well as some tiny whiteish benthic pod (the kind you see on a reef tank's walls sometimes), and threw in just a few Acartia tonsa...not that they were necessary but I pulled out all the stops on this batch of GBG's...it's definitely "paying off"..
Matt
Kmiec123
12/01/2006, 12:04 PM
Great news Matt, Congrats and great pics as usual. Carl
c'est ma
12/02/2006, 02:18 AM
Matt, I'm confused. You're not saying the gbg's are eating the pods, are you? Aren't they (the pods) bigger than Artemia nauplii? (I hope I'm not showing too much ignorance here!)
--Diane
Diane, they're eating pods slightly larger than rotifers for the most part!
So Renee was in charge this weekend while I was off winning a fly fishing tourament ;) She did a SPLENDID JOB!
33 days! - I got what I believe is a fair headcount this evening...here's what I came home to find.
11 GBGs fully settled and metamorphised showing adult coloration (UBER COOL!)
1 GBG settled but still silvery
6 GBGs still in the water column.
FREAKIN' SWEET! 4 are spoken for, the rest of you can start callin' dibs!
Matt
aomont
12/04/2006, 07:27 AM
Diane, what are you calling pods ? These are pretty small copePODS, not amphyPODS ! ;) Maybe the difference is in the full name. :)
Anderson.
c'est ma
12/04/2006, 11:40 AM
Anderson,
You're right, that's an important distinction we mustn't forget. I was actually thinking of the copepods that I have in my nano, though--and they are a bit larger than bbs, I believe, though still tiny...BTW, I recently had a bloom of teeny ISOpods no bigger than the copepods. :)
But all of these look huge compared to the goby larvae. I had not realized one could order smaller copepods...cool! And if these can somewhat eliminate the need to raise Artemia, so much the better.
Congrats on your continued success, Matt! BTW, have the parents continued to breed? Would it be possible to raise many broods at a time, labor-and-facilities-wise?
--Diane
Diane,
I'm sure the parents continue to breed, but I don't always know where the eggs are laid, and am not always around to notice a hatch when it's starting.
SO NOW it's 33 days - last night, I screwed up the math, last night's update was around 32.5 days. As of this AM, 2 more larvae had apparently settled out as only 4 were freeswimming. Also, I took another head count after posting last night and found 13 larvae in adult coloration, so the total amount of baby GBG's right now is probably 20.
FWIW,
Matt
Kmiec123
12/04/2006, 05:15 PM
Nice!1!@!! Great job Matt and nice job on the big 1st place....Carl
33.5 days now - it's very clear that settlement occurs towards "dusk" after watching these gobies for the past week or so. 2 more have taken up the benthic lifestyle, meaning there are now only 2 remaining in the water column.
This evening I removed 3 gallons of tank water, replacing with freshly mixed water (on a slow drip)...the ammonia alert badge is now definitely at the "alert" stage. No phyto has been added to the tankwater since Sunday morning, so no doubt it's starting to get cleared out now. I'm thinking at this point the population of rotifers may cause more harm than benefit, and we're seeing a lot of foaming at the surface, so water changes and light feedings are going to be the ticket I suppose.
I gotta say this is better than I ever could have imagined...the tank is simply "littered" with little tiny miniature Greenbanded Gobies - looks like our total resultant group of juvies will be around 20 or so...that's somewhere between a 10 and 20% survival rate from the initial hatch. I can only imagine how cool a 50% survival rate would look in that 10 gallon tank!
Here's a pic!
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN7498.jpg
MP
c'est ma
12/05/2006, 01:35 AM
AWwwwww! How cool! Wonderful to see a pic, Matt. Congrats again.
--Diane
34 days now... - the headcount is 19 settled with adult coloration, 2 still in the water column and clear. Can't find any that are settled but still clear....
FWIW,
Matt
Luis A M
12/05/2006, 10:44 AM
Hard work pays off.You´re now in the Breeder´s Hall of Fame!:beer:
Of course now Luis, I have to get them weened onto something other than live copepods and live BBS!
Matt
BrianPlankis
12/05/2006, 11:40 AM
Great job Matt, I've been following all of your threads and am happy to see a successful batch (other than the clownfish of course).
Brian
Thanks Brian - I'm more than excited about seeing something other than Clownfish too!!!
Matt
At 35 days of age, 1 remains free swimming, and there are 1 or 2 that have settled but not yet acheived adult coloration. The levels of life foods in the tank are dwindling...just some random rotifers and very rarely a small brine shrimp. Harp. copepods on the glass seem to be getting the most attention from the juveniles, and to that end I've tried feeding OTOHIEM A, as well as a mixture of Ocean Nutrition Cyclops and Cyclopeze, soaked with Selcon, which seems to generate mild interest. More than anything I'm having to resort to siphoning off the uneaten "dust" from the bottom. Over the weekend I may bring brine nauplii back into the fold as it's a feed that won't spoil and rot on the bottom for the time being (big surprise, I'm gone again and not in charge of the babies while away...brine nauplii it is!).
So that's where we're at.
Matt
We're rounding the bend to 36 days (I think we're around 35.75 or so at the moment) and I shot a couple more pics in the larval tank...still wishing my macro mode was working because these same shots would be a HECK of a lot clearer! Oh well, they get the point across just fine! There is still ONE that remains unsettled at this point in time.
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN7531_2gobies.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN7528_dozen.jpg
Matt
BTW, my headcount is still at 20. Also, they are kinda taking, or at least tasting, the cyclopeze / cyclops mix. In the process of feeding it, I had to take out a gallon of water today to clean the bottom, and have added in 4 gallons of clean new water (tank is basically at 9.5 gallons now). They're going to get mostly enriched brine nauplii for the next few days..don't want the caretaker to have to go through the trouble of cleaning bottom OR having the tank go sour while I'm away ;)
Matt
Kathy55g
12/07/2006, 08:01 AM
This is cool. They are nice looking youngsters!
Well I'm freshly back from Vegas and our gobies are all looking great...still some that don't look nearly as "adult" as some of the others do, but they've all put size on. For the past few days they've been getting selcon enriched baby / instar II brine while I was gone (doesn't pollute), but now that I'm back, Otohiem, Cyclopeze and Cyclops are on the table...going to get these guys onto some frozen and prepared foods with higher protien / lower fat levels in the next week.
That's the news for now!
Matt
Just a quick husbandry note...today I gave them Otohiem, Cyclopeze and Cyclops...it appears they went after the later two with gusto, but the Otohiem went over lukewarm at best. This evening I've siphoned off the gunk which has resulted in a 3 gallon water change (new clean water going in). There is a pretty sizeable "size range" at this point...hopefully I can get them all growing well and onto prepared foods quickly....then it's time to sell them!
Matt
43 days old and the gobies are doing well. I got a good headcount this morning and there are definitely still 20 left. This morning's feeding was B1 Otohime...they sucked it off the bottom without hesitation, and a few took down pellets in the water column too! Ammonia levels have subsided a bit with water changes and the addition of Caulerpa prolifera, C. racemosa, and Red Gracillaria. Things are looking good...I'm now just in a crunch to get them growing as fast as possible so I can free up the larval tank for my next adventure in marine breeding!!!!
If you're interested in some offspring, especially if you're in the Chicago area, shoot me a PM and I'll put you on the list! Hopefully they'll be to a fair size by January. I'm keeping 2, 2 are going to JL (you only need 2 to get a pair) and the remaining 16 or so are going to be sold. Thinking about $25 a shot (that's what I paid for my CB GBGs that started this whole thing)
Matt
One last quick update...over the last couple days I've noticed certain levels of aggression, especially from the larger juveniles. Some of the largest are running around with flaired fins that have darker edges...perhaps these dominating fish are going to turn out to be males? Could they actually be trying to pair already?
Matt
c'est ma
12/15/2006, 03:05 AM
Wow, that's interesting!
My pair may not be typical, but my male is smaller than the female...
FWIW, I've posted some recent pics & vids of my gbg's courting over at Nano-Reef, and I also mentioned your thread here again and the fact that you were now offering your babies for sale. Hope you don't mind! ( http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=105663&st=0&gopid=983303& )
--Diane
Diane, that's really interesting that your male is smaller! I guess they just swing whichever way they want!
Not really offering them for sale just yet...I want them solidly onto regular foods with a bit more size before I let them go, but I will let people start lining up for them ;)
Matt
c'est ma
12/16/2006, 02:54 AM
Well, I've been doing my best to drum up demand! :) (Or at least my fish have...)
Seriously, this has appeared to be a very labor- and materials-intensive endeavor. Do you think on a cost/benefit basis it will pay off? The more I learn, the more surprised I am that CB SW fish aren't a whole lot more expensive than they are!
12-19-06 - 48.5 days... - They're all doing well, the largest may be approaching 5/8" (TL) - that's a guestimate. There are still a couple that seem to be runty, but for the most part, they're growing. I'm feeding Otohime B1 in the morning now, followed by cyclops, cyclopeze, enriched BBS, and sometimes a 2nd feeding of Otohime. It seems that every time I look into the tank all the bellies are buldging.
I didn't mention in this thread that I added in a Duetto filter sometime last week...it's definitely helping keep the water cleaner. Ammonia is still creeping up periodically, so I'm running the tank around 6 gallons of water and doing fairly large water changes (up to 4 gallons) when I can. For now, I'm just wondering how much more growth I'll be able to put on these fish by mid-January.
Question for thought - how large do Tank-Raised Gobies such as these need to be before they are a saleable retail size, especially considering that even my full grown female is maybe only 1-1.25" at best?
Matt
BTW, officially decided how I'm going to attempt to "Free Up" my larval rearing tank. $30 each / $25 each if you want more than two..trying to get them all gone locally, sometime around Mid-Jan/Early Feb depending on how fast they grow up!
More details - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=998787
Itchin' to try the mandarins again!
Matt
aomont
12/20/2006, 10:38 PM
Hi Matt, talking about next round, how about these ???
http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?ddid=13713&siteid=20
You can put me on the holding list for a pair whenever they spawn and past meta ! ;)
Anderson.
Anderson, go ahead and purchase them and have them shipped for Thursday arrival next week to my home address....
Seriously, I've actually been thinking about that species for quite some time. I bet I could do it with DEDICATED tanks, but with my community style breeding, a LOT of batches go unnoticed (i.e. to this day I think my Barbouri Seahorses are spawning right in front of me...just never seeing any fry..)
Matt
12-21-06, 49.5 days - Well, we're about to round 50 days (around 11 AM). Ammonia has been creeping up again despite my doing some water changes here and there. In fact, I have one going right now, but it looks like tomorrow I'll have to drain it down most of the way and utilize mostly clean water to fill it back up...also considering bringing up the tank's running volume to a capacity (9.5 gallons or so) to help diffuse the buildup of ammonia etc...
Tomorrow, if I have time, I'm going to pull a juvie out and put him under the QX5 to get measurements and some closeup shots...50 days seems like a nice milestone for GBG rearing....they're willing to taste anything I give 'em now (crushed up some Formula 1 pellets...some ate it, some just spit it out). ONLY IF I have time....water changes and other maintenance are going to take forefront until after all the holidays.
Matt
12-26-06 - we're at 50.5 days or so and I thought some new pictures were in order. They're definitely growing and have become more reclusive in nature - virtually all the babies are hiding underneath the heater and red gracillaria that are in the tank.
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN7682.jpg
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN7683.jpg
Note the disparity in size between the two sitting next to each other in the right half of the picture!
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN7684.jpg
In looking at how they are growing, I think it's realistic to say that by the end of January they may be ready to all go to new homes - the largest of them could go to smaller Nano / Pico type reef setups now. They're eating Otohime B1 with gusto in the pictures above...it might be time to step up another size soon.
Matt
I gotta say, sitting here feeding B1 Oto to the GBGs this evening and just stopping to watch, I think these guys blow any baby clownfish out of the water but that's just my opinion. At this size it already appears that fish are starting to fit certain gender roles (I may have mentioned this earlier, but it's just "more pronounced"). With the largest fish now being the size of your average neon tetra, they're running around the tank with flaired fins, a darkened shoulder region and anal fin, and all the while ALL the fish go about their business picking up food from the bottom and the water column. I can hardly wait to see what another month does to these guys as far as size is concerned, and I'm especially looking forward to selecting another 2 or 4 to make more personal pairs with. While I do have other priorities, I can definitely say I look forward to trying another batch of these in the future....afterall if 20 is this cool, I can only imagine what having 50 or 100 might look like!
I gotta say these are hands down more satisfying than any African Cichlid I reared.
Matt
c'est ma
12/28/2006, 01:42 AM
That's just so cool, Matt!
And those latest pics are fantastic! Super kudos for your great success and this great thread about it.
--Diane
Peter Schmiedel
12/28/2006, 01:45 AM
Really impressive Matt!
I would expect that they would start getting teritorial now. No signs of agression yet?
Peter, there HAS been some low-level aggression since settlement, but not really over specific territory..I think not having any real territory to fight over may be partially responsible for that. You may recall, with my initial pair, at first there was a lot of chasing and bluff, but once they settled into their sexual roles that stopped. I suspect that once these are paired out things will settle down pretty quickly.
Diane, how are your GBG's doing?
Matt
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