Phos-Buster

[daytonians]

Has anyone ever tried Phos-Buster? And, Does anyone know exactly what it does?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've not used it myself, but here's a long thread about it:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=607707

[boxfishpooalot]

Is that the lanthum chloride stuff? If so, it can kill yellow tangs.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That happend to you?

[boxfishpooalot]

lol no, i would not dare use a lanthum chloride product after hearing about the side effect of fish deaths, and they say, yea the side effect is fish death because it depletes alkalinity........! I dont want such side effects :lol: Ill stick to iron based removers.

But from that link you posted:

Response from CaribSea:


quote:
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I'm truly sorry for the loss of your yellow tang especially after all those years. It is true that when we first introduced Phos Buster there were a few fish kills out of many thousands of doses and yellow tangs seemed especially sensitive. This was puzzling since, I would say, the majority of marine aquariums have a yellow tang or two. That meant that in addition to our own experience, and years of testing, the vast majority of yellow tangs showed no discomfort at all. The fish kills also seemed weighted towards fish only aquariums rather than coral growing reef systems. We then collected the bottles that had the negative experience from the owners (after compensating them for their losses) and tested them on yellow tangs in particular, at quadruple the normal dose. No negative results at all. Then we began to explore the possibility of bad interactions with other products or abnormal water chemistry. The answer turned out to be the absence of carbonate alkalinity (buffering capacity) from sea water. Phos Buster is mildly acidic. Normal aquarium water has carbonate alkalinity far in excess of what is required to neutralize the acidity. Carbonate alkalinity is normally monitored on a regular basis by reef people but fish tank keepers in particular often monitor pH only. I the vast majority of situations you can assume that normal pH means that the water has buffering capacity but in rare instances pH can be normal without any buffering at all. In those instances, Phos Buster added enough acidity to the vulnerable system to dip the pH and that is what yellow tangs are especially sensitive to. We updated our labels immediately to reflect the new information. Underneath the bold printed important! section of the label it informs the user that carbonate alkalinity is required for the use of this product and to dose an aquarium with buffer prior to use if you are not sure of the carbonate alkalinity. We have had no more reports of trouble (to us) since the label change early last spring until, sadly, your communication. Perhaps you got one of the old bottles before the label change? In any case, I'll send you the replacement cost of your tang so you can replace him with another fish. Save your Phos Buster. There is nothing wrong with it and it is still the best way to remove phosphate, safely, from a marine aquarium. Please E-mail mailing address to us plus the replacement cost. Thanks.


They should change the name to FISH-BUSTER :lol: j/k

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the link.

I the vast majority of situations you can assume that normal pH means that the water has buffering capacity but in rare instances pH can be normal without any buffering at all. In those instances, Phos Buster added enough acidity to the vulnerable system to dip the pH and that is what yellow tangs are especially sensitive to.

It would be nice if they indicated what pH drop they believed was responsible.

[boxfishpooalot]

"I came home to find my yellow tang, which I have had for over 6 years, on the floor all dried up. I also lost a cleaner shrimp"

"That isn't the first report of a Yellow Tang dying"

"Alk - 6.7 PH - 8.0" after product use.


Seems fishy to me, I think there is more to this than just ph falling.

[GTR]

Adding 1 ml LaCl3.7H2O to a .5 l SW sample with a pH of 8.18 and alk at 7.5 tested...
after 5 mins.....pH 6.7
after 15 mins...pH 5.6
after 9 hours...ph 6.8
No mixing after initial addition.

alkalinity only tested before adding La and at the 9 hour mark.

after 9 hours dkh <1

After 15 mins precipitates near the bottom, but not settled, after 9 hours the sample was clear with visible particulates on the bottom. I think Randy suggeted that might be lanthanum carbonate. I don't disagree but suppose we might have some phosphate thrown into that mix as well, maybe silicates. It goes somewhere and it's not just going poof. :) I could draw a test sample for PO4 but I'm certain it would measure 0.00 on the Hanna.

If anything was alive in that sample before I'm sure at this concentration it would be dead now. :lol:

SteveU

[boxfishpooalot]

Did you do this test yourself gtrestoration? Thats pretty cool!

Fwiw, some people who used it without any side effects maybee were using a "higher dosage" buffer with Borate in it. Such as Seachems.Wich could buffer better against lanthunum chlorides ph/alk dropping effect.

I think High indoor Co2 tanks would suffer more also.
Would Borate counter act this Randy?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

we might have some phosphate thrown into that mix as well, maybe silicates. It goes somewhere and it's not just going poof.

Yes, that is certainly likely. Your addition experiment used quite a high dose. Is that 1 mL of solid lanthanum chloride hydrate?

FWIW, wen used in people, folks never take lanthanum chloride because of these issues with acidity and chloride. They use lanthanum oxide or carbonate.

Borate would help the pH remain up, but would not prevent the carbonate alkalinity drop.

[GTR]

Your addition experiment used quite a high dose. Is that 1 mL of solid lanthanum chloride hydrate?

The .5 l water bottle was the only container I have maybe clean enough. :)

I'm not sure how to answer your "solid" question. I only know it's a liquid and it's la or Lanthanum Chloride, 7 hydrate.....?

At the dosages I've used it I've not seen any negative reaction from any animals or any unacceptable changes in water chemistry.

Would the chloride in LaCl3 7H2O cause any more concern in a system than the chloride in calcium chloride products?

SteveU

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oh, it is a liquid? No concentration on it?

Pure LaCl3 7H2O is a solid.

[GTR]

Just to be on the safe side I think I should clearify/repeat I've not used the "Phos-Buster" product and I'm not certain what that is. I think it's La but still it may not be the same concentration.

SteveU

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Assuming that there was nothing other than lanthanum chloride in the solution, it is consistent with the expectation that some lanthanum carbonate could form and thereby lower the pH. :).