Kalk and top-off water...confused?

[Scudd]

I would like to start getting into some SPS corals. The guy at my LFS said I should start dosing Kalk. I though I understood him at first,...now I think I'm just confused.
He said, mix Natureef Reef Former Concentate /"Kalkwasser concentrated " and some Strontium in with my top-off water. Add to the tank on a daily basis....like i normally would with my top-off water. The only difference my top-off water will have the Kalk mix in it.
When I read the directions on the bottle, it says use one ounce per gallon of distilled/deionized water.
Does this seem like too much? Whats the down side if I screw this up?

BTW, my Alk has been around 8.4 Dkh, Cal around 360-420 and
Ph 8.3. I have only been using the 2 part Ionic solution to adjust the levels. I currently add nothing else to the tank.... other than monthly water changes.

Thanks Eric

[LobsterOfJustice]

Your levels seem alright... Alkalinity maybe a hair low. You add kalk into your topoff water depending on how much your tank uses. Maybe start off with a teaspoon/gal, saturation is about 2 teaspoon/gal. Be very careful with kalk... If you dose too much or too fast your pH will spike. Monitor all levels including pH very carefully when you start using kalk.

You might consider simply dosing more of the 2-part if that doesnt bother you. Your pH is already "up there", kalk might not be a good idea.

[kj5432]

Kalkwasser is Calcium Hydroxide. You add this to your tank to increase your calcium levels. It is very effective at doing this. A side affect of kalk is that since kalk has a very strong ph (around 12 or so) it is also effective in raising your ph. If I was able to keep my ph at 8.3 like yours, I would never use kalk. You really don't want/need to raise a ph of 8.3. Also, if you choose to use kalk you need to set it up on a drip. Also, if you choose to use kalk please first invest in a ph monitor. You will need to monitor this constantly and accurately if you are dosing kalk. Kalk, if used incorrectly, can kill. If you dose too much at once it will dangerously spike your ph. Another downside to kalk is that you will deplete your magnesium and strontium levels unless you dose for them separately. I have an SPS tank. SPS as well as most aquaria need healthy levels magnesium and strontium to thrive. Kalk doesn't contain it.

Best bet is 2-part.

[RichConley]

Kalk isnt a calcium additive, its a balanced Calcium/Alk supplement, and works MUCH MUCH better than the 2 parts.

Magnesium you have to watch, but strontium you can pretty much forget about. We dont have any large strontium consumers, and your regular water changes will take care of it.

Kalk doesnt deplete magnesium though, corals do. On most 2 parts you're going to have to add it too.

As to PH monitors, totally unneeded. Kalk is much safer than 2 parts. If you add too much (as long as you dont just dump it in) most of it just precipitates out. Kalk issues happen when people syphon a whole bucket into the tank at once.

[kj5432]

I didn't mean that the kalk depletes magnesium. What I meant was that if you only are dosing kalk then you are not adding any magnesium. So you are not replacing magnesium that is used up by the corals. I guess I should have also mentioned alkalinity but I figured that stress what it does to ph one would only assume that it would increase your alk. I have to stand by what I said...if my ph is steady at 8.3, I wouldn't dose with kalk especially since you mentioned that you are able to also keep your calcium in the acceptable range. Alk at 8.4 dkh is not bad although i like to keep mine a little higher than that.

[RichConley]

If anything, I think your Ca is more of an issue than your alk.

ALk for sps keepers runs from 7-11ish, so 8.4 is in that range. Ca, usually 400-450, so you may be low on that.

At this point, just monitor those two. Get some montis, etc. If your levels start to fall, start supplementing. When you can't keep your ALK and Ca up in normal levels, it generally means your Magnesium is low. So test that. It should be 1200-1400ish.

Kalk will do alk and Ca. Magnesium needs to be done seperately, but its not very often. MaCl will do it.

[Scudd]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7378367#post7378367 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kjeanes
I didn't mean that the kalk depletes magnesium. What I meant was that if you only are dosing kalk then you are not adding any magnesium. So you are not replacing magnesium that is used up by the corals. I guess I should have also mentioned alkalinity but I figured that stress what it does to ph one would only assume that it would increase your alk. I have to stand by what I said...if my ph is steady at 8.3, I wouldn't dose with kalk especially since you mentioned that you are able to also keep your calcium in the acceptable range. Alk at 8.4 dkh is not bad although i like to keep mine a little higher than that.

I thought the Alk was a little high????..My chart in the test kit says that normal sea water is 7.3 dKH.

[pufferpoison]

be very careful with Kalk. I was drinking one night and added 3 or 4 teaspoons and added it to about a gallon of water and thought it was dripping (don't really know how fast i had it set) and the next day all corals were retracted and looking bad. I freaked and didn't know what to do, started running tests and my ph went from 8.2 to 8.6 at that time, who knows how high it actually went. I only lost one peppermint shrimp on the ordeal. THat night 2 other shrimp molted. Everything else survived and was back to normal within a day.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7378458#post7378458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pufferpoison
be very careful with Kalk. I was drinking one night and added 3 or 4 teaspoons and added it to about a gallon of water and thought it was dripping (don't really know how fast i had it set) and the next day all corals were retracted and looking bad. I freaked and didn't know what to do, started running tests and my ph went from 8.2 to 8.6 at that time, who knows how high it actually went. I only lost one peppermint shrimp on the ordeal. THat night 2 other shrimp molted. Everything else survived and was back to normal within a day.


The saturation point is about 3/4 teaspoon per gallon, so yeah, you added a ton.


NSW alk is like 7-8, but you have to remember, these animals evolved to survive in those conditions. That doesnt mean theyre the best conditions for that animal. They grow faster in higher alk.

[MCary]

It doesn't matter how many teaspoons you use if your using fully saturated Kalk. You can put in 2 cups if you want. Once the water is saturated the rest will settle on the bottom.

Saturated: containing maximum solute: containing the maximum amount of solute that can be absorbed at a given temperature

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7383646#post7383646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
It doesn't matter how many teaspoons you use if your using fully saturated Kalk. You can put in 2 cups if you want. Once the water is saturated the rest will settle on the bottom.

Saturated: containing maximum solute: containing the maximum amount of solute that can be absorbed at a given temperature

RIght, but generally when you have a full dump type event like he had, the particulate gets sucked off the bottom too.

[L and L]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7378458#post7378458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pufferpoison
be very careful with Kalk. I was drinking one night and added 3 or 4 teaspoons and added it to about a gallon of water and thought it was dripping (don't really know how fast i had it set) and the next day all corals were retracted and looking bad.

Uhhh, "drinking" and "don't really know how fast you had it set".

.... and you're warning us of "kalk"?

Never had any problems with Kalk. I don't add anything but this to my reef tank (no magnesium, strontium..). Excellent coral growth (w/ MH/VHO).

Natureef Reef Former Concentate /"Kalkwasser concentrated. When I read the directions on the bottle, it says use one ounce per gallon of distilled/deionized water.
Does this seem like too much? .

Not familar with Natural Reef Former concentrate.... so, i googled it and found this:

Reef Former Concentrate with Strontium

No powdery mess, no extra Strontium required. Just shake and add a couple of capfuls to a gallon of freshwater and presto you have "KALKWASSER". If you use KALKWASSER this makes it a breeze to prepare. You can use it all. It contains only pure Calcium and Strontium in the proper ratio just like you find in natural ocean water. Each bottle can make more than 30 gallons of KALKWASSER at half saturation. 128 oz $8.99

So, there you go... the manufacturer says a couple of caps full to a gallon.

Natural Reef F. Concentrate and Kalkwasser(aka Calcium Hydroxide and Lime) are two different things (for Scudd. In case he's getting confused... since we're talking about both here).

[funkyman]

After you've dosed and have the left over kalk on the bottom, can you just add more water to it and keep using it until it's gone, or is there something that's depleted after the first use of kalk?

[L and L]

I use Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime from Wal-Mart. It's cheap... so, I just throw the bottom stuff away.

If you mix too much kalk in your container and it gets saturated (read above), then it makes sense that some of the kalk didn't get used and just adding ro/di water to it will get the rest of it.

But... here's the question. How much new kalk do you add? since you're using an unknown amount at the bottom of the container.

It gets too complex... hence the reason why I just throw it away.... and it's cheap to buy.

[MCary]

If your going to pay $8.99 per bottle for 30 gallons of kalk, which btw would last me about 10 days, you just as well use 2 part. Its just as good as kalk and easier to dose. Otherwise, get some Mrs Wages. That's my 2 cents.

[Scudd]

I've decided not to use the Reef Former Concentrate and stick with the B-ionic.
My problem is I can't seem to raise the Alk levels any higher.
My current readings are
Cal. 420
Dkh 8.4
and Magnesium 1218mg

I've added the two part B-ionic over the past 2 days and only the Cal increased from 360 to 420 with no effect on the Alk.
If I were to switch over to the Reef Former Concentrate stuff would this also increase Alk or just the Cal? Should I double dose the Alk part of the B-ionic?
BTW, what is a good auto top-off doser system?

[L and L]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7387663#post7387663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scudd
BTW, what is a good auto top-off doser system?

I just bought a LiterMeter III. Comes with one peristalic pump built in... and you can get two other pumps to handle 3 different dosings. Very cool.

http://www.spectrapure.com/St_prec_p0.htm

or here's the PDF manual (got some cool pics of different setups (including 2 part bionic)
http://www.spectrapure.com/St_prec_p0.htm

It is a little pricey tho... but, the auto topoff I've been using for the past 4 years... is my thumb (kent IV roller dripper). :D

I'm going to get another pump and have it handle my kalk and rodi. It is a precision doser and handles as a minimum 1.7 oz per day and maximum 26 gallons per day.

[boxfishpooalot]

By the way adding strontium to kalkwasser water is not good. For one, strontium could be toxic at higher levels than nsw. Wich is about 7ppm.

Also, kalk has small amounts of strontium already present in it. Its part of a natural process of calcification. As corals lay down calcium carbonate they also lay down strontium of a ratio of about 1part strontium to 100 parts of calium.

Kalk is lime, wich is old coral skeletons and shells compressed over time on the seafloor. So naturally kalk will contain strontium as the corals put it there.

Dont add strontium is my advice :) its already there.

O yea, and food contains strontium also. Staple flake food has loads of it already inside.