Losing SPS, need some advice. PICS

[impur]

I have a 29gal mixed reef, but the majority of the corals are SPS. In the beginning of march i bought a house and moved the tank from my apt to the house. We bagged all the stuff we could, large rocks in buckets with water, and left about 2" of water covering the sand in the tank. After the move, some corals lost a little color, i figured due to stress. But some never recovered and i've slowely been losing SPS one by one since. The tank is 27 months old. I have plenty of flow, using a Seio 820 and MJ1200 in the main tank with a GenX2400 return. Needlewheel skimmer that pulls gunk, not as much as a top notch skimmer, but its held its own. I have a fuge with LS and cheato. I do weekly 5gal WCs. I simply cannot figure out why they keep dying, and what i can do to stop it. Today i discovered that the very first SPS frag i bought is dying, and it had done so well for over 2 years. Some of my SPS are doing great, so i'm very confused.

I DO HAVE REDBUGS but have not treated yet. I have the interceptor ready, just need to make a QT tank.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated by me and my dying SPS. Specs and pics

I literally just tested everything.

SG - 1.025
pH - 8.4
Temp - 79.5-80.2 (AC Jr temp controller)
alk - 10dKH
calcium - 420ppm
nitrates - 0ppm
phosphates - 0ppm
nitrites - 0ppm
ammonia - 0ppm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5220004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5220003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5220001.jpg

[impur]

Losses so far
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5220005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5220006.jpg

[impur]

As you can see, i've tried fragging, iodine dips, moving them to higher or lower flow and higher or lower in the tank. Nothing seems to work. But i have plenty of other SPS encrusting, growing, and having great PE.

[marine_freak]

That is a tough one..... I would see if there is any predator in your tank that could be munching on certain corals causing stress and RTN... not necessarily red bugs but maybe AEFW, or hairy leg crabs...... good time to check for predators is after the lights go out....... Are you sure about all your perameters??? Many times our equiptment will be faulty in testing the water...... salinity is a good example with a hydrometer.... also temp can be another... How old are your bulbs?? I would pay close attention to your perameters and look for a predator........ if all else fails yank the dying to save the living... or attempt to frag the dead part well into live tissue... do a large water change and run carbon for awhile.... Let me know how it goes..... I will be following this thread :)

[twon8]

i would do some large water changes, run some carbon. perhaps you stirred up some nasty in the sand bed during the move.

[impur]

Thats my thought, that stirring up the sand in the move threw things off. But its been 2 months, i hoped it would have balanced out by now. I'll start doing two 5gal WCs a week for awhile and pick up some more carbon, i usually run carbon but ran out.

I am positive there are no predators. No AEFW for certain and i haven't added anything new other than 1 zoo frag for the last 4-5 months. I did order some salifert tests, as i am not sure of the precision of the tests i'm using. Salinity is check with a refractometer. Temp is controlled by the AC Jr. and i double check the temp reading with a glass thermometer every few weeks. Fragging has not helped, the frags die as well. The bulb is about 8 months old.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, the WCs are a good idea so i will do those more often.

Its just so odd to me, as you can see in a few of the pics, that some of the corals are doing so well, like the blue mille in the background in the pic above. My Oregon tort is doing awesome as well as a few tricolors and all my montis plus that blue mille.

[JAANDGC]

Welcome to the "WHAT THE HECK" club. I've been dealing with this for about 2 months now and have not been able to figure it out yet. I have a ? on your larger colonies do you just loose a branch at a time. Looking at your pics it looks a lot like my tank. I have tried every thing I can think of and nothing has worked. If I find some thing I will let you know, and If you find something that works please let me know.
Jerry

[impur]

Thanks Jerry, i'll take you up on that and keep you updated. It usually happens with 1 branch bleaching out, then it will slowely bleach to the base. Then a branch on the opposite side and not touching the bleaching area will start to go. With others it started at the base and went up. You can see in the first pic its isolated to 1 or 2 braches currently. But will soon spread throughout the colony. Its tough to sit by and watch this happen.

Miles

[impur]

This is how it all started, with my green slimer. This was about 2 weeks after the move

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P4070099.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P4070100.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P4070096.jpg

And a tricolor that started to go. I have somehow saved this one and it is now regrowing over the bleached area

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P4070102.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P4070097.jpg

[Fliger]

I would bet money that its a stability issue. Alkalinity and salinity have to be ROCK SOLID, and its extremely hard in such a small tank. Throw on a protien skimmer and it can even exagerrate the problem by bouncing your salinity around.

Small tanks are very difficult unless you know exactly what you are doing. Tip recession and STN IME are signs of basic stress from unstable conditions.

Make sure you have a good refract. and measure your salinity between topoffs. Also measure your alkalinity daily. And make sure your WC water matches your tank water in terms of salinity and alkalinity.

I could be wrong, but every time I've ever seen those signs - its because I wasn't on top of things. A few times I took those frags to friends houses and they healed up practically over night.

[DarkXerox]

Maybe there is something wrong with your salt makeup water or top off water?

This may sound drastic but if it doesn't improve, maybe try moving the injured sps to a separate tank with brand new water (possibly from a friends tank) and do a sort of prop tank setup.

If anyone else had that work, chime in, but if all else fails, I think it could be a good option. I have heard what fliger said about bringing frags to other people's tanks and seeing them heal.

[chadfarmer]

i am going through the same thing

my deltec calcium reactor effuient stopped and alk went from 7 to 5 in the last week and i have thesame problem

slowly bumping it up and ordered a schuran jetsteam and dosing pump so i dont have to worry about this again

[impur]

All good points. Thanks.

I will be sure to stay on top of alk, SG, and calcium. Alk has been real stable for a month or more. Calcium was running high at about 520ppm, that was around 4 weeks ago and i have fixed that. Could i be seeing the negative effects of the high calcium still? For about a month after the move my husbandry definately declined, WCs were done every 2 weeks instead of weekly, due to the whole process of moving and buying my first house. The system volume is approx 40gal, so SG doesn't swing much. I keep a close eye on that, as its real easy to do a quick test with the refractometer. I'll be sure to check its calibration too, you never know.

i will check all WC water to make it the same as the tank. I do use strictly RO/DI and check it with a TDS meter regularly. Topoff is controlled by a floatswitch in the sump.

There is definately a stability issue, but i'm not sure exactly what is off. Hopefully the Salifert tests get here in a few days and i'll have a better idea of what it is.

Thanks for all the input everyone, keep it coming if you think of anything else. Its never too late to learn from this experience.

[Mchava]

just thought about throwing this out but from looking at the last few pictures i've seen. I think it has to do with maybe your p04. If you look at your tricolor its green under that base. I've read some where that this is dew to p04 in the water. Its cant be measured by salifert.

[impur]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7420172#post7420172 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mchava
just thought about throwing this out but from looking at the last few pictures i've seen. I think it has to do with maybe your p04. If you look at your tricolor its green under that base. I've read some where that this is dew to p04 in the water. Its cant be measured by salifert.

Interesting. Hopefully more frequent WCs will help this as well.

[twon8]

you might try one larger change instead of more smaller ones. i agree po4 is evident from the green skeleton.

[kevensquint]

I know whats wrong, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned it. What you have there is major ecosystem disruption syndrom;). It happens when the bacteria or micro-organizms in you water die or are left behind in a big tank change or perhaps long power outage, medication etc.. My friend, I posted the exact same thread as you here last week, and all my SPS are now dead. They sloughed off there tissue exactly like yours until all I have left are softies and a clam. Each day it would start on a different frag until all were gone. Next time I upgrade or move, I think I'll leave my corals in a freinds tank for a few months until the new system can age.

[cwegescheide]

Are you SURE your salinity is what your equipment is telling you? Reason I say that is because for a long time my corals were'nt healthy looking and some would not last very long. So one day I tried randy's salinity calibration technique with the 2liter bottle and table salt. I thought I did something wrong because my meter was reading WAY HIGH with Randy's recipie. So luckily I live within walking distance to the Florida aquarium so I took my refractometer over there and asked one of their keepers if they would check it out. YEP!!! My Salinity meter was reading HIGH!! What I thought was 1.026 was actually 1.018 :eek:

Haven't had hardly any problems like that since. So use Randy's recipie and verify your refractometer is accurate. You'll be glad you did. His recipie was right on the money btw..

Chris

[impur]

I'll give that a shot, i calibrate the refractometer regularly. Never hurts to verify though.

Kevinsquirt - that is very disheartening. So one by one they just died huh? I really don't want to see that! Were the others growing the entire time? I see encrusting and good color on the rest of my SPS. Would you suggest moving them to a QT tank or giving them to a friend to hold for a few months? If all of them die i don't know if i'll keep the tank up and running. That might be enough to put me out of the hobby for awhile. Would removing the dieing corals do anything?

[drock59]

I would take the time to triple check everything and maybe borrow a freinds test kits to make sure yours are not off. Then I would do several LARGE water changes. This stuff shouldnt be happeing.

[impur]

Thanks Dan, i agree, and it sucks!! My salifert test kits will be here any day. I'll take some water over to Sean to test and verify as well. Will be doing a large WC tomorrow. And again Friday. Then again Tuesday when i get back into town.

[impur]

Well i'm going to try and find someone locally who will hold my remaining SPS for a few months. I don't want to wait it out and risk losing all of them. Unless some of you think i could win this battle........

What kind of time table would you suggest for me to keep them out of the tank?

[reefgeek84]

Did you have DSB?

[impur]

I do have a sandbed, its about 2-3" deep.

[Saltfun2003]

I went through something like this for a while. Blamed it on my redbugs that i yet to treat. Have u tested your Magnesium. I read many treads when this was happned to me and found my Magnesium to be really low.

[drock59]

I would definately test as many varibles as you can. I cannot imagine why this is happeing if all your levels are in order. If there is something out of wack, the big WC ought to fix or at least help.

[impur]

Thats the reasoning i have had Dan. But some are thinking differently here. So i'm still just as confused as before. LOL

I don't have a mag test kit so i cannot test for that. When i get home tonight i'll calibrate everything and do some more testing. Gotta make up a large amount of water too. I do not think the redbugs have anything to do with it. I've had them for a year or so now, and since the move i have a valida that has gone from brown with brown polyps to a awesome purple tips and yellow polyps. Also, check out this frag. This frag did not even begin encrusting until after the move. In the last few weeks its completely encrusted over the plug, while other corals die. Go figure

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P4200169.jpg



Miles

[impur]

Well i've got a guy in our local club who will take them in shortly. In the meantime, i'll calibrate everything, test daily and have the tests verified by other tests at my LFS(and with the salifert tests once they arrive), and do 2 large WCs each week, about 10gal each WC. I'll check all WC water to make sure it matches the parameters in the tank.

Thats the plan of action. Thanks for all the input guys. It definately helps to be reassured on these things. I'll keep this thread updated every few days.

[PUGroyale]

Are all the water changes you've done with the same batch of salt? I

lost about a dozen frags a few months ago... I was tearing my hair out :( All parameters were perfect, I'm cutting my lighting period/raising the lights/yanking all the leathers [calfo said I had a toxic soup going... gotta love expert :rolleyes: "help"] All the while I'm doing BIG regular water changes... cuz' that's what yer s'posed to do... right? Finally I figure the only variable I haven't checked is the Coralife salt. Did a 50% change with IO... big improvement. Did another 50% a couple days later... better yet. Finally I have things perfect again :) So... if you haven't already thought of it ~ check your salt.

[impur]

Yah all the same salt, even same Jug of Oceanic.

Glad you got yours squared away quickly! Its tough to sit by and watch.

[PUGroyale]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7424529#post7424529 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by impur
Yah all the same salt, even same Jug of Oceanic.



I say change it... What have you got to lose? Maybe it got corrupted during your move, who knows. I think mine was just a bad batch. I'll sell you the last half of the last bag of my Coralife bucket real cheap :lol:

[Zoom]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7418372#post7418372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fliger
I would bet money that its a stability issue. Alkalinity and salinity have to be ROCK SOLID, and its extremely hard in such a small tank. Throw on a protien skimmer and it can even exagerrate the problem by bouncing your salinity around.

Small tanks are very difficult unless you know exactly what you are doing. Tip recession and STN IME are signs of basic stress from unstable conditions.

Make sure you have a good refract. and measure your salinity between topoffs. Also measure your alkalinity daily. And make sure your WC water matches your tank water in terms of salinity and alkalinity.

I could be wrong, but every time I've ever seen those signs - its because I wasn't on top of things. A few times I took those frags to friends houses and they healed up practically over night.
I agreed with Fliger its a stability issue.

[impur]

Well my salifert tests arrived. Did some testing, double testing, and some calibrating.

Temp 80 (3 seperate thermometers)
SG 1.025 (calibrated twice using RO, then Randy's recipe)
pH 8.1-8.2 (hard to tell since the chart goes from 8.0 to 8.3)
alk 9.3dKH
calcium 420ppm
nitrates 0ppm (completely clear liquid after 3 min)

I mixed up 10 gallons of fresh SW, will be doing the large WC tonight. I hope this turns things around.

[impur]

Well a week has passed. Have done 15gal worth of WCs in that time and added a phosphate sponge. The recession continues on those corals that were already going, albeit slowely. The other SPS are looking ok, one large colony fell over into a smaller frag over the weekend, but the damage is limited to just one of them and just the tip. I hope it makes it as it was growing really well. When it rains it pours i guess. But there seems to be positive progress. This morning as i checked out the tank in the dark it appeared that my oregon tort frag might have some STN starting. Not sure thoe as the light hadn't kicked on yet. I really hope it isn't going. I'll find out later i suppose. And there are some diatoms growing on the edge of my orange monti cap. I've been basting it daily to try and keep the diatoms at bay. I remember the diatom stage when i setup my tank. Hope this time it passes just as quick and easily.

[dreaminmel]

What kind of sand did you use for the bed? Possible silica is leaching from that or coming in w/ your water changes?

I ask because I have a brown bloom going and figured out 1ppm of silica is making it into my tank every time I do a water change... I'm planning on getting an RO/DI ASAP which I believe you said you use so this may not be a factor for you.

[dirtyreefer]

That sucks dude, I really feel for ya. There's nothing worse than watching a tank slowly go downhill and not knowing what the hell is the problem.

Check your Mag levels though. I can't say if that's the problem, but I once had a problem with low Mag which caused a tissue recession on the tips of my acros. Make sure the levels are above 1300.

[impur]

I used 100% southdown argonite sand. No silica.


Yah it is tough to watch. I don't have a mag test kit, i'll msg some of the local guys to see if anyone does. I would think these frequent large WCs would help if that were the problem though.

[mr. pluto]

if you have been using oceanic salt exclusively, i doubt your mag is way off. imo. it is (1) alk. burn. or (2) ammonia poisioning.

[gil716]

impur, i know exactly how you feel. i was experiencing something similiar, but it only affected one specific type of acro. i had 3 samoensis frags in different areas of the tank, yet they all started to STN from base up and on some of the tips.

i fragged my frags and used superglue as a quasi bandage at the points of necrosis. they seem to be coming back and one of them is already growing over the superglue. maybe you should give that a shot if you haven't already.

As for the root cause, I've narrowed it down to either the huge waterchanges from redbug treatments or the .3 error on my ph probe as I dripped kalk to push it over the top.

HTH

[vapor1]

I would vote for Acro eating flatworms.I had a similar problem and it took about 6-8 colonys and a few frags untill I was able to see the little suckers.It was slow, so I thought STN.But actually it was AEFW's and it took awhile before I ever saw the first one.Some of your pics look exactly the way my colony's and frags looked.I found them when I was inspecting a frag under a magnifying glass. After putting the frag in an Iodine dip for 10 mins, I was able to pick one off of the frag with a toothpick.I'm telling ya , these suckers are VERY hard to see.

It took about 3 months after the first Acro started receding untill I was actually able to see one. So, watch the corals closely and go over them with a magnifying glass around the area that is receding.

Just something else to think about.

[impur]

I have considered AEFW, but since ruled them out. I've removed colonies dipping them in FWE combined with a 4 drops of Lugol's in about 6 cups of water and left it sitting overnight. Amazingly the coral, the green slimer in the prev pics that started to receed first, made it thru the dip overnight and even stopped receeding for a few days. Mind you it was only a few days. I examined the coral with my magnifying glass as well as examined the left over water from the dip and found nothing. On top of this, i have not added a new SPS for about 4 or 5 months, only additions have been a zoo frag and they got a FW dip. Unless AEFW will lay dormant for 4+ months then start attacking, there are no AEFW in my tank.

[impur]

Ok did a check when i got home, the tort does not show any signs of recession, thats good. Phew. I took a few pics of some of the corals such as the frag above with the yellow polyps. Its encrusted a bunch in just the last few weeks. I'm gonna keep up on the large WCs and phosphate sponge, hope i'm getting the upper hand on this.

The only problem i see now with the corals that are doing well, is the orange monti cap getting some diatom growth on a part of its edge. I've been basting it off and it comes off pretty easily. Any ideas on how to better handle that?

[impur]

A few pics from tonight. The corals that started receeding continue, but others look real good. Here are a few of both

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5310115.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5310118.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5310122.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5310125.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5310119.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/P5310120.jpg

[impur]

Well turns out it is probably AEFW after all. I noticed this frag friday after work

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/need%20id/P6020136.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/impur/need%20id/P6020154.jpg


At least i know what i'm battling now. I made a stand and am putting together a light and overflow for a 10gal QT w/ 10gal sump to move my acros to for 4-5 weeks. I'm going to do weekly TMPCC dips. Wish me luck!

[DarkXerox]

That makes more sense, your husbandry seemed fine. So all the montis and other non-acros are fine?

[vapor1]

At least you now know what you are dealing with.Let us know how things progress , and what you eventually end up using to remove them. I haven't found anything that was 100% effective yet, But I have had decent success at cutting down on their numbers in my tank so far.

I have used a dip of about 25 drops of Lugol's in about 1 gal of water for 10-15 mins to stun the flatworms.Then I proceeded to pick anything off the Acros that was not coral with a toothpick. I did lose 1 acro trying this. I know that this is NOT eliminating the AEFW's, but it is slowing/stopping the recession on my acro's. At this concentration, the AEFW's seem to struggle to get out of the way when I drop the Lugols's in the water...but it just kinda parylizes them for a few mins .


Hoping someone will come up with a 100% effective treatment.

[impur]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7501255#post7501255 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarkXerox
That makes more sense, your husbandry seemed fine. So all the montis and other non-acros are fine?

Yah, all montis are doing fine, so is my last remaining mille. Since they attacked a pink mille and a blue prostrata i assume they will soon go after the last mille. Do you think i'll be ok leaving the montis in the display or will the AEFW migrate to the montis once i remove their main food source?

vapor1 - thanks for the info, i might have to go that route until my TMPCC arrives.

[clkwrk]

They love mille's they were always first attacked then valida if they could get to one.

[Rav-65]

Good luck bro... sad to see you fighting this evil stuff!!!! AEFW!!!! :(

[vapor1]

Where can you get TMPCC online?

[impur]

I picked it up from **********.com

[vapor1]

I thought that was where you said on the other thread, but I can't find it listed on their website.

[clkwrk]

Under wild corals ;)

http://www.**********.com/main.php?item_type=56

[vapor1]

Thanks Alot.