Will this sump design work? Also, ATO ??s *3-D sketch included*

[Newreeflady]

Hi again. Thanks to everyone for their help so far on my 36g corner bowfront project! So, I figured out how I can fit a 15g tall aquarium under my stand. Please look at the following sump design to tell me if this will work?

Sump is 15g tall aga tank 20L x 10W x 15H. I have decided I just can't fit a refugium, not enough space. I have lived without one so far.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/738215g_sump_design_rough_draft-med.jpg



Questions:

Water Level:
1. I want the water level in the last reservoir to stay high enough so that their isn't a drop over the last baffle creating bubbles. Am I accomplishing this? I'm not sure how to be sure.

Baffles
The spacing of the baffles is 1" and the middle one is 1" off the floor. The two that touch the floor are 10" high.

2. Will this work well for elimination of micro-bubbles?
3. Also, should the last baffle be lower than the first baffle? If so, how much?
4. Will all of the water (200-300gph) be able to run through the small 1" x 10" space below the middle baffle?

Drain
5. I have heard to run the drain through some live rock to reduce bubbles. Or, though a micro-filter sock. What is best? Should I fill this portion of the sump with some rock rubble?

ATO
I want to create a water reservoir in the front part of the sump, this will hold about 3.5g of water. I want to set up an ATO and pump water from this reservoir over to the other area of the sump.

6. Does anyone have any pump recommendations for auto-top off that will accomplish this?
7. And, I want to make make the ATO pump stop if the reservoir is empty (to be sure the pump doesn't run dry. Can I put another float switch in the FW reservoir to shut off power to the pump if water in the reservoir is too low?


--
Any other recommended modifications for this sump? Any flaws you can see? No, the sump can't be larger, this is the absolute largest thing I can fit and it will require that I modify the stand.

Thanks!
Angela

[george1098]

the only thing i can think of is you may want to increase the size of your drain. i use a 1 1/2 ", but i'm sure you would be fine with a 1", as long as it is bigger than the return line.
I also like the idea of your fresh water resevoir built right into the sump. check out floatswitches.com (sorry i could not find a link), they have easy, cheap and reliable auto top off mechanisms. i use one. it cost me about 35 bucks plus the cost of the water pump. just use any old powerhead , like an old maxijet.

[Newreeflady]

I didn't realize you wanted the drain line larger than return line, I will factor that in and upsize the drain by 1/4" larger than the return.

Thanks, I thought it would be nice to incorporate the FW reservoir all in one place. Unfortunately, I am working with a small space here so it is of a premium. Another thing i'm planning is to add a slide-out bottom to the stand so that I can slide the sump out a little bit to work in the back if/when need be. I would like to be sure that the plumbing is such that I can do this. So, i'll maybe want to use flex-pvc, or even vinyl tubing for the drain/return.

Is omega.com the same as floatswitches.com? Which switches do you recommend (there seem to be many?) Also, will an mj900 pump water up by 18" I don't think it will as it isn't a pressure pump. The head loss calculator says 4gph at 18", that is pretty slack, do you think it'd work?

Thanks,
Angela

[george1098]

here we are, it was .net, not .com
http://floatswitches.net/
just browse around this site for a few minutes, he gives you a great wright up about his products. I bought the 'basic top off kit' but the premium kit gives you absolutely everything you will need except the pump (again any powerhead will work fine, he recomends the maxijet). if you are a capable DIY er you will be fine with the basic kit. it comes complete with detailed instructions, anyone can do it. (he should be paying me commission).

as far as your drain goes, the 1" should be fine, but if you wanted to go even wider to a 1 1/2" it would be a good idea for peice of mind. you don't want it clogging or not being about to keep up with your return pump. I would go with the vinyl tubing as it is generally cheaper than flex pvc and easier to install (you don't need glue or weld) just make sure you get the thick stuff, you should not be able to press it together with your fingers. maybe get the fiberglass re-enforced stuff.
a slide out sump is deffinatly an ambitiouse idea. just keep in mind how much water weighs. a full 15 gal tank weighs about 125 lbs! also, water sloshes around allot when you move it, so you may get it all over the floor if you slide the thing out too quickly.

i'm interested to see how your idea works out. you have some origional concepts. try to post some pics of your progress

[Newreeflady]

ATO
Ach, electrical work, lol! After looking at the site, I think i'm probably better off with something like the JBJ ATO as the difference in money is somewhere in the realm of $40-$50. I have to make the call where DIY is worth it and where my time is more valuable, and here I think I might just spend the extra $40. Plus, as much as I *love* wiring, I think i'll save it for my lighting;) haha.

Drain
Thanks for the tip on the vinyl tubing, I didn't realize there were different grades available. As for the drain size, the Lifereef overflow has a 1" barbed threaded outlet. This will allow me to easily use 1" vinyl tubing. Even if I do use 1.25" tubing, I am still limited by the 1" hole in the outlet of the overflow, right? Plus, I am only looking to put through 200-300gph, shouldn't 1" do the job? I can always use a ball valve on the return to control how much flow the return pump puts out.

Chiller
I am also needing to plan in advance to possibly route part of the water through a chiller. Now, I want this to be discrete, but I will absolutely not be able to fit a chiller in the stand. The best place to do this may be a T from the return, that way the water is filtered already, and the return pump has the capacity to push a decent amount of water >300gph. I suppose then I could re-route the water back to the sump, but this would not seem an extremely efficient route as part of the chilled water would be returning to the chiller. However, i'm not sure I see a way around this.

a slide out sump is deffinatly an ambitiouse idea. just keep in mind how much water weighs. a full 15 gal tank weighs about 125 lbs!

Yes, I realize this. The tank will of course not be completely full. However, still very heavy. What I plan to do is check home depot for stable rollers that I can mount. I will then purchase two 5/8"-3/4" thick pieces of plywood, one will hold the rollers, this piece will be screwed in to the existing stand using a number 1.25" wood screws. Then, I will use the second piece of plywood for the other part of the rollers, this is what the tank will sit on. I need wood that will not bend under this pressure, and I need guides/rollers that are very very strong. Nothing is set, I have to see what is available.

i'm interested to see how your idea works out. you have some origional concepts. try to post some pics of your progress

Thanks, I will definitely be posting pictures as I progress with this. It will be my summer project and will have to be worked in with a very heavy lab schedule... I would love to say this will be quick, but probably take me through July to complete. I am also planning on building my own canopy for the bowfront, this will be done once the tank is running and cycling.

:)
Angela

[george1098]

well I see you have everything well planned out, and planning really goes a long way in this hobby. I’m sure a 1" drain will suffice if there is only to be '300 gallons flowing through. gravity can pull water down allot faster than a pump can push it up so you will be fine. when you go to get your vinyl tube there should be two measurements for it. one will be the actual diameter of the hole of the tubing and the other will be larger and it represents the diameter of the outside of the tube. just make sure you get 1" interior diameter so it fits over the barb. you can buy one little metal screw tightener to keep the tube from slipping off the barb.
As far as your chiller goes, I think it may be easier to put a small pump, just a powerhead perhaps, running a 'closed loop' from inside your sump, through the chiller and back. you can use vinyl tube to plumb this as well. put the pump on the drain side of your baffle and the return from the chiller on the return pump side so the same water doesn't get re chilled. I wouldn’t recommend splitting it off of the return line as you don't want to cut down on the amount of flow moving through your display. I will admit however that I don't know a great deal about chillers as I am from Canada and I only have to worry about tank temp for about 10 weeks of the year.
Home Depot is defiantly the place to go for sliding rollers. I’m sure they have something that can support a 1100 lb table saw that can be modified to move a sump. any piece of plywood should do for your sump stand, as long as it is 'laminated'. that means it has thin pieces of wood sandwiched together with the grain of each sheet running perpendicular to each other. this gives it allot of strength and it should not bow in the middle.
That really is all I can say, good luck!

[Newreeflady]

Hi there again, George:)

Yes, I will be sure to get 1" i.d.

you can buy one little metal screw tightener to keep the tube from slipping off the barb.

Good call. I was just going to use the plastic re-inforcing things MD sells, but the screw one is probably more secure.

As far as your chiller goes, I think it may be easier to put a small pump, just a powerhead perhaps, running a 'closed loop' from inside your sump, through the chiller and back.

Well, as for this, I will see what the return pushes. If it is strong enough, i'll probably just T it. It already may be too strong for this application if my calculations are correct, however it is the most economical choice electricity and $$ wise. It's good you don't need a chiller, I won't need one in the winter here that's for sure!

Home Depot is defiantly the place to go for sliding rollers. I�m sure they have something that can support a 1100 lb table saw that can be modified to move a sump. any piece of plywood should do for your sump stand, as long as it is 'laminated'. that means it has thin pieces of wood sandwiched together with the grain of each sheet running perpendicular to each other. this gives it allot of strength and it should not bow in the middle.

Thanks!! Good tips. I didn't think about the table saws, of course they have something that can be used! I also didn't know that the meshed 90 degree off wood grains were called "laminated" and I might have forgotten about these all together. Thanks for the info!

That really is all I can say, good luck!

Thanks!
-A

[Newreeflady]

Questions 1 thru 5 haven't yet been answered if anyone wants to chime in:)

Thanks,
-A

[futrtrubl]

1: The water level in the final compartment will be solely based on the amount of water in your system total. If you loose some water to evaporation this is where the water level will drop (not in the tank or in any of the other compartments) which is both a blessing (water levels stays the same elsewhere) and a curse (the noise you are trying to avoid and the possibility of your return pump running dry). Plus remember that should you loose power your sump needs enough extra capacity to handle some extra overflow (make sure that return line looses siphon or you'll get your entire tank of water in your sump). So in short, this is the section you will want your ATO float switch in.
2: Don't know.
3: Probably best if they are the same height, otherwise the water falling over the first one may cause more bubbles.
4: 5gals/min, so <1gal/10secs... should be fine.
5: Not really nescessary I think, more to maintain.

Edward

[njp14333]

7. And, I want to make make the ATO pump stop if the reservoir is empty (to be sure the pump doesn't run dry. Can I put another float switch in the FW reservoir to shut off power to the pump if water in the reservoir is too low?

in addition to the jbj ATO, check out this (http://www.reeffanatic.com/products/float-switch-and-level-control/level-controller.asp). like the jbj ATO, it comes with two floats, which gives you the option of using one of the floats in the FW reservoir so the pump wont run dry. i think you can buy it on customaquatics for like $87. just another option to consider (i have one and it works very well).

also, you mentioned how you were concerned that with the first baffle high, the water may splash down. however, if you install the float for the ATO up high enough in the sump, you could keep the water level in the entire saltwater side of the sump slightly above the highest baffle (first one) at all times, which would elimanate the noise/splashing issue.

i would also recommend purchasing a manual float to go on the end of the return from the ATO pump in the resevoir. set the manual float slightly above the electric ATO float in the sump incase the electric float ever failed. this would cause the manual float to close the return line from the FW resevoir, which would save you a lot of headaches. incase you werent sure what a manual float is, something like this (http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=KM1675). the only trick with the manual float is that you have to find a way to mount it. i just used a heat gun to soften a peice of 1/8 acrylic, then molded it to the side of the sump so it hung, then bent the remaining acrylic in a way so that i could drill a hole and mount the manual float valve to it. sounds complicated but is very easy i assure you.

on another note, the baffle spacing all around of 1" is perfect for the amount of flow you have.

also, i think it would be a better idea to run the third baffle short (like 3-4 inches, just taller than whatever the height of your pump is). this is because if you ever forgot to add water to your FW resevoir and your tank didnt get topped off for a few days, it could run with a lower sump level which would pretty much save your tank. as i mentioned above, in general you wont have to worry about falling water/noise etc. as long as you set your floats for your ATO up high enough. the only time youd ever hear a noise was if you ran out of top off water, which would be good because the sound would notify you to fill your FW reservoir.

5. I have heard to run the drain through some live rock to reduce bubbles. Or, though a micro-filter sock. What is best? Should I fill this portion of the sump with some rock rubble?

personally i wouldn't recommend a filter sock. yes, they do help with bubbles and to clear the water, but unless your willing to clean them like every 3 days, they are useless since theyll just clog and overflow over the top of the sock (or even worse, overflow your tank if you have the sock tied closed tight onto your drain line.) if your have some extra room, sure throw some rock in there, it will help some with the bubbles/filtration.

i also noticed you said you didn't think you had room for a fuge. i think you could do it though if you wanted. what you could do is put a peice of eggcrate standing on end like a baffle, right in front of the skimmer and drain line. then put a small peice of egg crate over the first baffle. you could then add rock and some cheato to the "eggcrated" section, and not have to worry about it being sucked into the skimmer or through the baffles into the return pump. the small section deffinently wouldn't provide much area for rock or cheato, but since your system is relatively small, it should help some, not to mention the rock and cheato will help signifcantly with bubble reduction.

[Newreeflady]

njp14333,

So, in addition to the JBJ ATO, or the Level controller you linked, which will have sensors in the return compartment and in the FW Reservoir, I should also mount a manual Kent float valve. The picture in the link is awkward. Is the whole unit rigid, or is there a sensor and a remote box? So, for the ATO pump, I would need that connected to two failsafes. How do I plug the pump in so that there are two things that could turn it off? (maybe i'm just tired, I don't see it right now.)

Thanks for the tip on the last baffle, I hadn't thought about what happens if I forget to fill the reservoir!

As for the fuge, i'm concerned I won't be able to spotlight that area without lighting other areas. I will have to mount a small PC above the sump, but wouldn't this cause nuisance algae growth everywhere in the sump, not just in the fuge? Good idea with the egg crate. What section of home depot is that in?

As a side note, not sure if you're familiar with the product but i'm being told the the Aqua C Urchin is not a very good skimmer, but it is all I can fit well. So, should I not bother or is it better than nothing?

Thanks,
Angela

[njp14333]

the manual kent float valve is just a failsafe in case your electronic float fails. it doesnt use sensors or anything. its just the black float which has the return line from the pump in the FW reservoir inserted into it. the float valve floats when the water level gets too high and this causes the valve in the float to close which prevents the return pump from the FW reservoir from pouring more water into your sump and causing a potentional overflow.

as far as plugging the pump into failsafes and stuff, all you need to do is plug the pump into the ATO controller, and it does all the work for you (no complicated wiring required).

i wouldn't worry about nuisance algae, wont do your sump any harm. plus, with the cheato there, there should be less nuisance algae anyhow. the extra light for the fuge could actually benefit you anyhow since it will help you see when your working in the sump.

you can buy eggcrate in the building/lumber section in the area where light diffusers for flourescent ceiling lights are.

the aqua c is by no means a bad product, although it deffinently isnt the best in its class either. although it is significantly more expensive, you may want to consider the deltec MC500 (http://www.deltecusa.us/proteinskimmers/mc500.php). i didn't check the dimensions on the aqua c but i believe the deltec is similiar in size. but ya like i said although it is more money but it will pay for itself quickly in a healthier tank and less headaches with not having to tune it every other day and stuff.

[DHyslop]

Angela,

Go for a do-it-yourself top-off from floatswitches.net. I think they have a step-by-step photo tutorial on how to do the wiring. If you can use Sketchup you're plenty smart enough to a) put the topoff together and b) drill your tank (even though the Lifereef is the best siphon overflow you can get).

I like the idea of having a freshwater reservoir as part of the sump, but it seems like its killing you for space. My reservoir is just a white 5-gallon bucket next to the stand. For the home of a grad student its not that out-of-place. This would free up space for a good skimmer.

Dan

[Newreeflady]

Hi again,

The Deltec is way out of the range of $$ I am willing to spend for a skimmer. I'm sure it is nice. If it were $250 I would consider it, but i'll just go for the half-***ed Urchin I guess;).

As for the lighting, yes, I was planning a fluorescent fixture under there anyhow, now i'll just be leaving it on:) I guess that just makes it double worth it, though. Good call about the algae,... it's a sump so hopefully if it grows here it won't grow in the display.

DHyslop,

I like chemistry and plumbing... but i'm not into wiring unless I have to, and for a $40 savings i'll save myself the time and just buy the plug-n-play on that one. I have plenty of DIY to do already on this tank. (sump, plumbing, canopy, rock structure with dowels, ... the list goes on.)

As for the FW reservoir, it stays, period. I am not sitting a 5g bucket next to my tank. I am a student, but not a kid and I don't like my house in shambles. (ok, well, it gets cluttered, but a 5g bucket is just plain ugly.) The Urchin will have to do because the Deltec is way too expensive for a skimmer and the similarly priced alternatives are just too bulky for my application.

As for drilling, trust me, i've been through this line of thought. I was given information from a trusted source that even with just 2 holes I will still have a 25% chance of cracking this thin (7/32") aga glass tank.

:)
Angela

[sjm817]

There are ways to hide a topoff container. Put it in a basket, box, under a chair, etc, etc. A good skimmer is very important. Tunze Doc are very compact, very quiet skimmers. They are worth a look.

[DHyslop]

Even if the Deltec's are too expensive, there are plenty of solid skimmers in the ~$200 range.

Let me once again implore you to try the diy ATO. Ten minutes of wiring, and you can tailor the system exactly to your needs and your desired level of redundancy. Real easy to customize this way--I'm going to use the open circuit on my solenoid for an automatic water-change pump.

Otherwise, it seems you've done plenty of homework. Put it together, you'll learn more from the process than you will from any of us at this point :)

Good luck!

Dan

[Newreeflady]

"Let me once again implore you to try the diy ATO. Ten minutes of wiring, and you can tailor the system exactly to your needs and your desired level of redundancy. Real easy to customize this way--I'm going to use the open circuit on my solenoid for an automatic water-change pump."

Wow, is there that much of a benefit? I just figured it's the same thing for cheaper, I didn't realize it was actually better than the plug-n-play is. I've done some wiring in electronics class, so i'm sure I could follow the instructions. I will look at this again.

Dan, as for the skimmers, most in that range are just too darn bulky. I really want something that is compact for this design. I like the built in water reservoir, and I may eventually need to add a cabinet to hold things like a chiller, mechanical filter, phosban reactor, calcium reactor. These are things I am not "planning on", but that I keep in the back of my mind because sometimes they are needed in the end, but you can't tell until it's running. I do not want to burden the near-tank-space with a large water reservoir, i'd like to keep what I can in the cabinet.

Thanks all. :)
Angela

[Pbrown3701]

One more thing I noticed - you don't want your second baffle to go all the way to the top of the tank. Leave a 1 or 2 inch "safety" space for the water to run over in case something happens. I realize that it is unlikely that something will clog a long narrow strip under the baffle, but better safe than sorry.

Also, you will be happy if the section your pump is in, is as large as you can make it. As others have alluded to, if it is too small, the small bit of evaporation will make a large impact on the water level in that section - water level drops only slightly, then the pump starts slurping air. Might even consider reversing the flow - put the skimmer in the far right and have the drain dump into that section. Then put the pump in the slightly larger area on the left.

[Newreeflady]

Thanks, I thought I might want to leave a space, but most of the designs I saw did not leave one I didn't think twice about it.

Well, if I do that, I have lost the area that people were suggesting I use as a refugium. I don't want a bunch of macro-algae next to my pump with nothing but some egg crate to seperate them.

So, you feel that the area for the pump is then too small? This area was 5"L x 10"W x 10"H. It was suggested I should lower the last baffle to near the height of the pump. This would give me 5"L x 10"W x 6"H.

Do you feel this idea would help? I would be using ATO but of course it could run low at some point.

-A

[DHyslop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7467693#post7467693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Newreeflady

Wow, is there that much of a benefit? I just figured it's the same thing for cheaper, I didn't realize it was actually better than the plug-n-play is. I've done some wiring in electronics class, so i'm sure I could follow the instructions. I will look at this again.


You know I haven't used the JBJ plug-n-play unit, but "better" is subjective. I like to know every component in a system so I can anticipate possible failures and mitigate them. Its just a matter of me personally prefering to avoid "black boxes." The main reason I'm encouraging you to go the DIY route is because you very clearly have the intellect to do so, and as such you should save the $40 and spend it elsewhere in the system ;)

Whichever way you go with the top-off, I really would consider an external freshwater source for no other reason that it will make room for a nicer skimmer. Also: an auto-topoff is really only a convenience unless you travel quite a bit. You can always just draw a water-level line with a sharpie on the sump and pour water in by hand every so often (depending on how much evaporation you have). Then you could keep your water anywhere, under a sink or in a closet.

Regardless of all this, your first sump is a learning experience. We all have ideas, some work some don't. I can't count how many iterations the plumbing took on my 75 just in the last year...

Dan

[Newreeflady]

Thanks, Dan. You have been a great help. I understand your fear of black boxes,... I now need to get over my fear of foregoing the black box;) I didn't do too hot in EE class, I did better in ChemE:p So, if I do this, expect me back here for help, lol!

As for top-off, I do not like to feel bound to the tank. I do go on a lot of vacations and I would prefer not to worry too much:)

Yeah, I expect to have to change things, but I try to plan the best I can:)

Thanks to everyone, the help on here is invaluable!
Angela

[futrtrubl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7467831#post7467831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Newreeflady

So, you feel that the area for the pump is then too small? This area was 5"L x 10"W x 10"H. It was suggested I should lower the last baffle to near the height of the pump. This would give me 5"L x 10"W x 6"H.

Do you feel this idea would help? I would be using ATO but of course it could run low at some point.

-A

Lowering that last baffle would be a bad thing. That leaves less volume in the last compartment and if it's is at about the same height of the pump then any amount of evap that doesn't get compensated for by your ATO will cause the pump to suck air. At best that will mean bubbles in your return, at worst your return pump fries.
Remember that any water loss in your system will only show up in that last compartment, your tank and the other compartments use overflows which keep their level constant. So if your system looses 1gal it will loose it from there, and too many things could go wrong with an ATO to rely on it.

Edward