AEFW new info and photos

[dolt]

I have finally read the two big aefw threads after I unfortunately found out that my tank was infected. My interest was piqued when I had two validas on opposite sides of the tank start to look bad, and one of the threads stated that validas were one of the faves of these pests. I am currently now contemplating treatment options, but none sound to be good at this point for in-tank use. I have too many collosal colonies and removing them is not really an option without destroying my tank. I want to back up a step first and share some of my basic observations and get others' input. The more we understand about them, the better our chances of success in treating in the long term. I seem to have noticed that there may be a few (at least) differents species people seem to be affected with. I base this on differences in photos and on behaviour on corals that others have posted. I seem to have two distinct (different life phase of same species?) types in my tank. One is large (several mm) and the other is extremely small (roughly on the order of one-hundredth of the size of the big ones). I have never posted photos before so bear with me as I try to do so.

[menard]

MATT, not you too!:( ..........You are right they would go after TRi color first before any of the other acros. in your tank. So, eliminating the tri colors less likely infecting others. Hoping before you do find out about this that they are still in that colony not the others.....Good luck

[dolt]

here is a photo of the larger ones that are somewhat typical of what others have posted, but mine are a little longer and do not have that central dividing line
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/largeaefwtoothpick.jpg

[dolt]

those larger ones were found in moderate quantity on a 5" staghorn frag that did not show any tissues loss but had browned out significantly for months from it's previous beautiful blue color. This seems different from everyone elses experience that I have read so far in that it never killed the coral or it's tissue, but rather seemed to be able to parasitize it at a low level without killing it.

[dolt]

I also seem to have another much smaller type that is seen in the following photo:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/DSC00599e.jpg
they are a little hard to see at first so here is a closeup:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/DSC00599ecloseup.jpg
they are the little reddish elongated thing in a group in the middle of the photo roughly. I doubted what they were originally until I observed them moving, so I then examined them under the microscope. They are definitely similar flatworms to the first larger type, but much simpler. The large ones have these dark eyespots etc that the small ones do not. It might be that the smaller are juveniles of the larger ones. But, one difference that makes me wonder is that the smaller ones (as you can see in the photo) definitely destroy and eat tissue (whereas my larger ones do not seem to).

[dolt]

another thing of note is that snail at the border of normal tissue - I am not sure if they are doing anything but I found them in moderate quantities on my sick colonies

[dolt]

here is another picture of the small ones on a different frag with obvious tissue loss:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/littleguys.jpg
and a close up:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/littleguyscloseup.jpg

[dolt]

sorry about those last two photos - I will resize again and repost - told you I didn't know what I was doing!

[dolt]

in that second photo you can clearly see one of them kind of stretched out to the left of the middle of the photo - then that kind of shaded little squiggle above it a little is also one - they seem to be so small that they fall inbetween the stony ridges of the coral - again I have verified that these amorphous appearing little squiggles are definitely alive and are definitely flatworms under a microscope (I was skeptical myself at first) they in fact are extremely fast in a bowl when moving across the bottom

[murphreef]

wow those are so small how would u ever be able to find them??

[dolt]

so, anyone out there with similar oragnisms, questions, input etc?

[dolt]

menard - yeah it kinda sucks - I just got things the way I like them and was ready to rock and roll - for the first time since I have been into this hobby, there is not a single piece of equipment I wanted or anything I would change about my tank other than adding some choice pieces I wanted

murphreef - I found them as I noticed the tissue loss and had no idea what was going on - I began to pull out the affected colonies and examine them really closely with a magnifying glass and taking photos and blowing them up on my computer - I was not sure they were really of significance though until I looked at them under the microscope and saw what they really were

[murphreef]

wow thats crazy i dont think i would ever be able to find those if they were on sps....

i do have some redbugs from where i got them i dont know but they are mainly on my valida it took me a long time to see them....

so whats the treatment for something like that?

[SERVO]

Hey Matt:rolleyes:

So do you think that the smaller worms may possibly be a juvenile form? Just wondering if what you saw under the microscope was completely different or somewhat similar. Who knows. I have some ideas, I'll give you a call.

I don't like to hear about others mortality rates, hope you don't follow suite:mad: .

[dolt]

Justin - therein lies the real question - there are a few big threads on this going on for up to one year and no real answer has been found yet - many things have been bandied about as in-tank or dip type treatments with varying degrees of success (minimal real success though) including high dose salifert flatworm exit, praziquantel, levamisole, tropic marin pro coral cure dip, cold water dips (tap or salt water both have been tried)
I think that this is a pretty big problem and is going to get bigger until we find a real world solution like we have for redbugs (dips are not ideal for people with older tanks and big colonies - plus many have documented eggs laid in non-sps places or on rocks near zoas etc) - I bet a lot more people out ther have them than think that they do - some blame there losses on water quality issues etc without ever seeing them - the traditional AEFW that most people deal with are very hard to find, and the smaller ones that I have are even more difficult to see

[dolt]

hey ryan - they may be juveniles or something, but their feeding is different (just like human babies maybe!) and they do look structurally MUCH less complex than the large ones when magnified greatly

[dolt]

another interesting point is that I have yet to find any eggs anywhere - and as you can see, I do not think it is because I have not looked hard enough - it is possible that I am not far enough into their lifecycle to have them lay eggs, but as I said the first stag to look bad began many (4-5 at least) months ago

[murphreef]

man that is crazy ....

sorry that u got those and hopefully some kinda treatment works for u

have u given any thought to what treatment ur guna try?

i know im fighting with red bugs right now nothing too crazy mainly on my valida and its still colored up fine with good PE

i did a iodine dip it killed sum but they come back withion a week..i have an interceptor pill that im saving it until and if it gets really bad

ive just started more recently with the sps and im hoping not to get those AEFW but i would have no idea how not to get them

the things with eggs is that they are hard to find especially with something that small thney probably are more translucent and super small....

ive battled with zoo eating nudis as well in the past and those are also a pain

[dolt]

justin - I am not sure what I am going to try yet - still fishing for info at this point (hope to gain a lot of help in this thread!) - as far as red bugs are concerned, I did the same thing - waited until it reached plague proportions and then treated - I had NO problems or ill effects from the treatment and only did once and it worked great - no signs of recurrence yet and many corals look much better (knock on wood) except for the obvious above problem which I feel is entirely unrelated

[murphreef]

did u use interceptor as well??

and it didnt kill off all your inverts??

sorry didnt mean to get sidetracked but just wondering?

so from the pics do AEFW's usually start at the base of a coral and work from there??

in just wanna keep my eyes open incase i ever notice them

and do they kill corals fast or does it take a long time?

[dolt]

yes - I used interceptor - I removed all hermits and did not notice I lost anything else of significance (still have tons of pods and peppermint shrimp that survived)
as far as the AEFW are concerned, I first noticed changes in the tops of my validas - they were bleaching - oddly enough I have never been able to find the worms on the tips that are dead - not sure if it was due to infestation at the bases or if there are things there that I am missing or I look at the wrong times (maybe they are notcurnal?)

[zoazoa]

Oh.. My God...I hate bugssss..

[dolt]

some before and after photos of the destruction
before
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/before1.jpg
and after
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/after1.jpg


and a second before
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/before2.jpg

after
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/after2.jpg

[murphreef]

wow thats crazy!

so are they mainly attacking your valida's?

[SERVO]

Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo!!!!

There goes my valida:mad: Damn things.

Well here goes.... The big issue is what are these annulids most like-Trematodes, Cestodes or even Nematodes.

I think that biologically the AEFW's are most like the Platyhelminthese flatworms that comprise the Cestodes (tapeworms) and trematodes (flukes). Nematodes are classically roundworms causing intestinal and tissue disease in humans, and are likely not simular enough to the AEFW's. I think that we need to find a medication that will cover the disease of the flukes first. It would be nice to find a simular life cycle. With trematode infections there are both eggs and flukes in the body, so that treatment (if in high enough doses) may be the way to go. The only problem is that the egss are hosted by snails and the larvae infect humans.

Niclosamide or Praziquantel can treat Diphyllobothriasis.
In Diphyllobothriasis humans ingest larvae and pass the eggs. Prazipuantel will also treat Taenia saginata/solium, Clonorchiasis, paragonimiasis and the common (in my brain at least:p) Schistosomiasis. Schistosomiasis the eggs induce granulomas. Praziquantel is used for all Trematode infections.

IMO, I think that Praziquantel would likely be the best to kill these damn things. The question is, what dose and what will happen to everything else? i haven't read anything on anyone useing this but maybe it is just a concentration issue.


According to Katzung praziquantel enhances Calcium influx and induces muscular contractions. THe drug increases the cell membrane permeability resulting in paralysis of the worm musculature. Vaculoization and disintegration of the tegment occur and parasite death follows."the drugs safety and effectiveness as a single oral dose have also made it useful in mass treatments...." In humans no major adverse effects have been described. In experimental animals, no effects are seen until doses approx 100 times the therapeutic range are reached; signs of CNS toxicity are then seen; A wide variety of mutagenicity, carcinogenicity, embryotoxicity and teratogenicity studies have been negative.

Given the therapeutic effect at 0.3 micrograms/ml I would shoot for this dose and see what happens. If everything looks good, but the FW's are still there I personally would double it redosing no sooner than four hours and then go from there. Again, I don't know of anyone else trying to use this and I am unaware of what does that they tried. It looks good with humans. You could do 50X the recommended therapeutic dose for human infections. Shoot for 15 micrograms/ml first.

What do you think?

[dolt]

ryan - that was a med I was most interested in as well - all other meds tried thus far including levamisole are designed for roundworms - I also have tried ivermectin (round worm med) and it seemed to work well but have no idea about it's safety in the tank - in humans praziquantel is the drug of choice for flatworm infections (ie tapeworms most frequently) which would seem at least emperically to be most closely related to flatworms we are dealing with - there were a few people in one thread I read (can't recall where the heck it was now) that had tried praziquantel in the tank and the tank seemed to tolerate it well - there are actually a few products that are made for fish tanks that are praziquantel - I had one bookmarked - it was prazi pro from USKoi farms uskoi.com - even states it is safe for marine aquariums (for whatever that is worth!) - I don't have that at this point, but am thinking of getting ahold of some soon - maybe the people who have tried it or remember where that is documented can chime in here

[dolt]

servo - and why don't you have any of that valida anyways? I thought that you had a colony?

[SERVO]

I watched it dwindle away while not treating for red bugs. I figured I could always get it back from you.:(


So what dose of praziquantel are you thinking of? Can you find what someone else used and what they dosed? Nice to have your wife calculate the dosing for you:lol: .

[dolt]

I'll have to find it - I think they used the recommended dose on the bottle of one of the aquarium-intended products, but I don't think it was the brand I pointed out above - I'll have to dig for it later - it was in one of those two AEFW threads - prazi pro (I found it at that one one line vendor run by two vets!) recommends on their own web site one oz for 120 gallons of water, but does not say what the drug concentration per oz is
I would be suspicious of that valida dying - mine did not suffer when I had red bugs, but now is dying with AEFW - I would check it really close if there is any of it left (and any other stuff in your tank that looks funny)

[dolt]

anybody out there with experience with the prazi-pro or other similar product?

[Aquaduck]

I'm interrested in hearing about these drugs too. I have these dreaded little bastards on the base of some corals as well. Once in a while I spot one and I use a dropper to suck them off. But the resssion and damage continues even though the corals are still growing new branches.

[Sparkss]

Prazi-Pro was tested and shown ineffective against the AEFWs (in SeanTs AEFW thread I believe). But I would still like to hear of your results in trying it. Please keep us informed. Thanks :)

[dolt]

I must have read it in the SeanT thread I bet - I think that I am going to do some levamisole dips of the most affected colonies and order some prazipro to try on the whole tank (or maybe some experiments first as dips and also to see if it is safe on snails etc)

[impur]

Interested in your results. I just discovered bite marks that can only be from these FW, but have yet to find a single AEFW that matches any of the pics here at RC. Mine are black. Iodine was effective on them in a short time(although i was not dipping for these FW in particular), FWE at 10X dosage made them zip around real fast and took 4 hours to kill them.

I only have a handful of infected corals, maybe 8 total, and will be moving those over to a QT tank and dipping them in TMPCC once or twice a week for 4 weeks.

[dolt]

I would be worried that are in more places - they now seem to be popping up everywhere for me - it appears that if a good solution is not found soon I will lose everything

[dolt]

ok time for an update - I am now trying FWE at 5X recommended dose on the littler of the two types I am infected with - they seem to be doing fine after ten minutes - I am experimenting on them as they seem to be doing the most damage, and are the most abundant - in fact I can not find any more of the big ones after that first batch I found - I would like some just to do dose and drug experiments on
I still am not sure if they represent two species or different life stages of the same one

[dolt]

they were not phased at that dose so after thirty minutes I added one more drop (now at 10x dose) and this seemed to **** them off - they started running in all directions pretty fast - unfortunately this did not kill them yet but I'll keep watching
-BTW when I was pulling out some of the smaller stuff to inspect it I found that I again have red bugs! uggg! but it is my own fault as I felt I was disease free after one treatment one month ago (I know, don't even say it) - I guess at least that is simple and a known entity to treat

[gflat65]

FWIW, alot of the reactions of the AEFW's to the meds has not necessarily been death. While the Levamisole can kill them, it more stuns them so you can blast them off the corals.

[dolt]

the problem with these ones is that they are soooo small there is no way you could get rid of them that way - I have a very hard time seeing them with a magnifying glass - there is no way you could find and blow them off - also they are so small that they hide in between the skeleton folds of dead acros and are impossible to remove even with a directed stream from a diabetic sized needle at a very high pressure (or for that matter any other means I have tried) so I need to find something that will kill them as is

[dolt]

one other thing we decided to try is ivermectin - I also got it at a farm store and it is a medication that is designed to treat worm parasites (but of mostly the roundworm variety) - it is a liquid and states it is 1% in a 50 mL vial (designed for injection) - we used 0.3 cc in three cups of tank water in a bowl as a dip for 30 minutes - it seemed to work well - as did the FWE at about one hour, but at 10x recommended doses (obviously may cause some problems if used as an in tank treatment at these levels)

[Sparkss]

Dolt,

the FWE treatments have been tried by multiple people (at least 3 that I know of, most likely even more) and all are very well documented in BigReds AEFW thread. If you haven't already, read up on what dosages seems to work on which AEFWs :). Other than that keep up the great experimenting :D, our battle continues here as well. We have some ornate wrasses on order and even have some of the larger AEFWs in a container that I plan to add one of the wrasses to so that we can observe first hand if they help any at all. We will post the results once we have any to post :D

[dolt]

tom- that is where I got the idea of trying that - what I am hoping to find is a relatively safe and effective in tank treatment - I wanted to try the FWE in a bowl first as the AEFW that I have seem to be different from what others have been battling (but I bet there are a lot of people out there with the type I have who do not know it - they are extremely hard to find and after all, I had to get it from somewhere) - I wanted to come up with an effective dose in a bowl to then apply to the tank - unfortunately, the only dose that seemed to possibly be effective was the 10x, which reading others' experience, is likely to cause a great deal of stress to my whole tank
I ordered some of the prazi pro last night and should be here in a few days - that also shows promise of being safer in tank, but it's effectiveness for others seems to be low - however, I will test it in a bowl first and go from there

[SERVO]

Happy Birthday:beer: :clown: :celeb1: :celeb3:

[dolt]

thanks dude!
the good old 6/6/6!

[impur]

My redbugs came back after 1 treatment as well, i know the feeling.

I removed 2 acros that were infected last night and put them into about 6 cups of water. I added 6 drops of lugols. Didn't really do much to them. I then added 4 drops FWE and they really started to bug out, squirming in the water, etc. I left it overnight and could not find an alive one this morning. I have the small ones as well, so they are very difficult to see. Obviously this is not an in tank treatment, but it gave me some hope. I sure hope the TMPCC is effective against these ones.

[Sparkss]

TMPCC has worked fine for us as a dip, but obviously no in tank and also not effective against eggs. You almost have to break all new coral colonies off their bases (even after dipping) before adding them to your tank, just to be safe. The eggs are very hard to see, and so easy to reinfest with.

[impur]

Good! I only have a handful of infected corals, the dip should work well for me......I hope ;)

I believe i have the same ones as dolt, the real small thin ones. I have yet to find any eggs even using a magnifying glass.

[dolt]

impur - do you have the really super tiny ones like I have? you are the first one if so that I know of that has those - I guess it makes me feel a little better to know I am not the only one (sorry - misery loves company:)) - also makes it easier to share info and experiences with someone with the same problem rather than similar problems - as far as fwe is concerned I used 1 or 2 drops in four gallons last night (5x and 10x reccomended doses) but only left in for 30-60 minutes - the 10x worked well over that time but 5x did not - the latter though is likely more useful for in tank use so maybe longer times are needed (one of the threads talked about using up to 4-5x with moderate collateral problems)

Sparkss - one concern for me is that the type of flatworms are so small I am not sure if they even are egg laying - so if and when I do find a treatment I will probably do a once a week sort of thing for four weeks or so as I will never be able to find and remove eggs (if they exist even)

[impur]

Yes they are really really small. About half the size of a normal clear or red FW. I checked and checked and have not see any eggs either.

[Aquaduck]

I have them as well. No eggs to be found. These things are so small they look like specks of brown algae but they move. Hopefully you'll get some positive results from these medications.

[Sparkss]

Well, we ordered some ornate wrasses (the Christmas wrasses that everyone states have an appetite for the AEFWs). They should be arriving today. I will post their arrival status and any results with testing them in a container with some captured live AEFWs (although i doubt they would eat them like that, being stressed still from the shipping, etc).

[gflat65]

I had heard of yellow coris and leopard wrasses with appetites for AEFW's. I just got a splendid leopard wrasse (M. bipartitus). I haven't seen any signs of AEFW's since the Levamisole treatments, but will keep an eye out... All accounts I've heard on the Christmas wrasses have been good in terms of crustacean molestation.

[Sparkss]

They are also a gorgeous fish, to boot. Hopefully they will live up to their rep of eating the AEFWs. Most others in the genus are good at pest control, but so far the only ones reported to actually nip the AEFWs off of the corals was the Christmas/Ornate wrasse (the others all would grab them from the water column if/when the AEFWs were blasted off the corals). Radiant wrasses are supposed to be great for pest control also.

[gflat65]

They had a Radiant wrasse at a LFS when I bought the splendid. I wonder if the LFS's are paying attention to the trends, or if they just got in some cool fish...

[Sparkss]

most likely just getting in some cool fish. Most of the LFS I have dealt with were totally ignorant of the "trends" (unless it would make them more money, like the Acan craze last year). Some knew about "online" but never ventured, the others that did venture didn't seem to know the "right" places to go (or they didn't have the time to "learn" anything useful).

But that is just my cynical opinion based on certain first hand experiences. :)

[dolt]

I got the prazi pro today and will be experimenting with it in a bowl on the flat worms at different doses and comparing with ivermectin and FWE at the same time and will post results as soon as I can - wish me luck - I hope the prazi pro works as I heard that at least at regular doses it does not seem to have adverse effects on the other tank inhabitants (but who knows, at higher doses this might be a problem)
- at this point things are getting pretty bad - for some reason the FW seem to really have taken off and are now on many more colonies and eating them fast - I'm surprised something so little can do so much damage :(

[dolt]

I just spoke with someone at hikari who sells prazipro in the us - he stated that they will not guarantee that it is reef safe for sure but they tested it on reef inhabitants including snails, corals etc and stated that none showed any ill effects - he states that the med was intended for use on flat fish worm parasites and is not sure if it will work on AEFW (he was not aware what these even were) but does say that he does not think that it works on traditional planaria at recommended doses at least - he also stated that a bunch of the employees and others had used it in reef tanks with no ill effects at recommended doses

[SERVO]

Updates?:(

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7521717#post7521717 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sparkss
Well, we ordered some ornate wrasses (the Christmas wrasses that everyone states have an appetite for the AEFWs). They should be arriving today. I will post their arrival status and any results with testing them in a container with some captured live AEFWs (although i doubt they would eat them like that, being stressed still from the shipping, etc).

I doubt they'll eat in the cup right off the bat Tom.

Where did you order them from? Shouldn't be to hard to find locally. I know a bunch landed yesterday from Tonga.

[Sparkss]

I tried for several weeks to find them locally, out of almost 8 weeks worth of trying (calling just about every LFS on their shipment days) I found 1, that I had to special order, on about hte 3rd week. They got in 2, I went down and only 1 was the right fish (and not all LFS go by the Latin name for ordering/selling fish). So it is hit and miss when dealing with LFS for ordering certain fishes, these being one of them. We ordered directly from Hawaii, and they landed yesterday (for us anyways :)). :)

[phileas]

Really nice coral, is the purple one a real color or light effect?

[Travis]

I heard that 6-line wrasses were supposed to pick the FW's off the corals. So after I finished the levamisole treatments I put 4 6-line wrasses into quarantine in my 75. I wanted to add these fish to the display "just in case" I got the FW's again or just in case something made it past the levamisole dips. I had even spent quite a bit of time reading up on these fish and they are supposed to be decent candidates for schooling fish if the tank is large enough. Well, I can confirm that it is not a good idea to try to add multiple 6-lines. One was very dominant and killed off the other 3 in very short order. So now I am stuck with one mean 6-line in the display and probably ruined my chances of adding any other type of wrasse.:( Not sure how useful this info was but figured I might as well share it in case anyone else had thought about getting a small army of 6-lines.

I talked to Mike Paletta at IMAC about the AEFW's. He said he has been experimenting with some different treatments and has been having success with a medication for human tapeworms. He didn't say what the medication was as I'm sure he didn't want to be held liable since he hadn't done enough experimenting yet, but it might be worth looking into some human tapeworm medications.

[Casshern]

sparks,

I work at an lfs with a radiant and christmas in a tank that had fw. After about a month of treatment with fwe and dipping our corals, we added the wrasses. I've been following their behavior whenever I'm in the shop and I have noticed that both wrasses especially the radiant nip at sps. All of our sps have been doing better since and I have not seen a single fw since.

I will most likely add in another radiant and a a pair of leopards and monitor them too

[Chicago]

forget the six line... there are others that do just as good of a job and are not bullies... the leopards and the christmas do a great job... they hunt all day long....

[SERVO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7533893#post7533893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis

I talked to Mike Paletta at IMAC about the AEFW's. He said he has been experimenting with some different treatments and has been having success with a medication for human tapeworms. He didn't say what the medication was as I'm sure he didn't want to be held liable since he hadn't done enough experimenting yet, but it might be worth looking into some human tapeworm medications.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7497551#post7497551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo!!!!

There goes my valida:mad: Damn things.

Well here goes.... The big issue is what are these annulids most like-Trematodes, Cestodes or even Nematodes.

I think that biologically the AEFW's are most like the Platyhelminthese flatworms that comprise the Cestodes (tapeworms) and trematodes (flukes). Nematodes are classically roundworms causing intestinal and tissue disease in humans, and are likely not simular enough to the AEFW's. I think that we need to find a medication that will cover the disease of the flukes first. It would be nice to find a simular life cycle. With trematode infections there are both eggs and flukes in the body, so that treatment (if in high enough doses) may be the way to go. The only problem is that the egss are hosted by snails and the larvae infect humans.

Niclosamide or Praziquantel can treat Diphyllobothriasis.
In Diphyllobothriasis humans ingest larvae and pass the eggs. Prazipuantel will also treat Taenia saginata/solium, Clonorchiasis, paragonimiasis and the common (in my brain at least:p) Schistosomiasis. Schistosomiasis the eggs induce granulomas. Praziquantel is used for all Trematode infections.

IMO, I think that Praziquantel would likely be the best to kill these damn things. The question is, what dose and what will happen to everything else? i haven't read anything on anyone useing this but maybe it is just a concentration issue.


According to Katzung praziquantel enhances Calcium influx and induces muscular contractions. THe drug increases the cell membrane permeability resulting in paralysis of the worm musculature. Vaculoization and disintegration of the tegment occur and parasite death follows."the drugs safety and effectiveness as a single oral dose have also made it useful in mass treatments...." In humans no major adverse effects have been described. In experimental animals, no effects are seen until doses approx 100 times the therapeutic range are reached; signs of CNS toxicity are then seen; A wide variety of mutagenicity, carcinogenicity, embryotoxicity and teratogenicity studies have been negative.

Given the therapeutic effect at 0.3 micrograms/ml I would shoot for this dose and see what happens. If everything looks good, but the FW's are still there I personally would double it redosing no sooner than four hours and then go from there. Again, I don't know of anyone else trying to use this and I am unaware of what does that they tried. It looks good with humans. You could do 50X the recommended therapeutic dose for human infections. Shoot for 15 micrograms/ml first.

What do you think?


Travis, I'm sure that the medication that Palletta was talking about is either Niclosamide or Praziquantel. I think that these hold the most promise, but it is just a concentration issue. Praziquantel is in the Prazipro. The concentration of the dose in the Prazipro is really low. Given the clinical studies for the medications, you should be able to really increase the dose above that in the Prazipro. I'm not sure if anyone has looked at Niclosamide.

So what's up Matt? :rolleye1: Did you get any Niclosamide to use as a bowl treatment?

[mntl]

I'll join in

:(

I have been able to stay RB free for the life of my systems and about a week or so ago I have noticed some minor recession that looked uneven and happened on some tips and the base of two acros. Around the same time, for the first time, I noticed a flatworm (brown/red) on my glass. I have been following these threads and now believe it is the FW's, until today I did not see them near the acros, so I shot a couple quick pics when the light first turned on.

look on the rock next to the acro:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b245/mntl/aefw1.jpg

Look unter the tip to the left

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b245/mntl/aefw2.jpg

Kindo blurry, but you get the point :rolleye1:

The tank is small and currently has no fish, all but 2 colonies (suharsonoi and desalwii) show minor dmg, the pics I posted are by far the worse of the bunch. I have 1 emeral/1 scarlet/a clam and about 10 snails. I think if we needed a good tank to expariment on that is a "reef" and not a quarentine this would be a good one. I can get FWE, Tropic Marin stuff, and lavamisole (sp?) locally. Where should I start? It is not bad yet but is definately increasing. Total water volume is 25 gal, tank is BB/skimmer, I will probably add carbon and try doesing a lower amount (recommended amounts or a bit more) over a longer period of time. I know some of the 10x has seemed to work but I do not know if this is a good idea for a non-quarentine tank.

Any recommendations, I can keep this updated and I am willing to have some losses to document some experiments. suggestions welcome.

P.s. do any of these treatments seem to have effects on things like shrimp/crabs/snails? Has it been tested?

-John-

[Obi-dad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7535525#post7535525 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mntl
I noticed a flatworm (brown/red) on my glass.

There are many types of flatworms. I think the typical reb/brown on the glass is not the same as the acro eating flat worm. Though you may also have the acro eating type.

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7533935#post7533935 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Casshern
sparks,

I work at an lfs with a radiant and christmas in a tank that had fw. After about a month of treatment with fwe and dipping our corals, we added the wrasses. I've been following their behavior whenever I'm in the shop and I have noticed that both wrasses especially the radiant nip at sps. All of our sps have been doing better since and I have not seen a single fw since.

I will most likely add in another radiant and a a pair of leopards and monitor them too

I had read and been told about the radiant wrasses also. They are on our list for acquisition :)

[dolt]

phileas - it really is that color - it is under a coralvue 10k and it does insane things to the blue/purple in that piece

Servo - no I did not get the niclosamide - I opted for the prazi pro as praziquantel is kind of the gold standard for tapeworms and is readily available now for aquarium use so it is easier to get - I was not able to get around to trying it today though as I had to do stuff with the wife (go look at some furniture!) today - I would bet good money that paletta is talking about praziquantel

[dolt]

and also niclosamide is no longer available in the US!

[dolt]

OK - I started wondering what medicine would make the most sense to use - to do this I began to review some worm phylogeny - Platyhelminthes (flat worms) are divided into three groups - planaria (this includes ones that live in ocean and freshwater environments - eg our AEFW), trematodes (flukes), and cestodes (tapeworms) - according to a UC Berkely website I found planaria and trematodes seem to share a common ancestor - we therefore need to focus on medications that will selectively treat trematodes in humans or other animals (as far as I am aware there are no serious human parasitic planarians) - human tapeworms are cestodes and may not be as closely related to the AEFW and therefore meds that work on them may not work as well on AEFW as ones for trematodes - the funny thing is that this may all be moot as praziquantel is proven to be effective against trematode and cestode infections in humans - in fact praziquantel is so effective in humans that basically no other medicines are readily available for treatment of trematode infections (as above, nicloside is a second choice in other parts of the world, but is no longer available in the US)

[herositaly]

Hi
the Problem of the infections of (turbellarie) it is a lot difficult to resolve without destroying the tub but it is possible to remove the turbellaries that you/they eat the coverage of the corals with some washings with treatment with baths of betadine (3 mls / lt of water of aquarium for 20/25 minutes) and to brush of possible other eggs

[dolt]

herositaly - I agree - that is one of the problems that I was thinking about last night that I forgot to add - as praziquantel is so effective against many types of worms, it very well may cause a massive worm die-off when used in the system - however at this point, that is a risk I am willing to take for a few reasons - one is that I think removing things and treating them is fine for the pieces you treat, but for larger tanks, you are leaving other pieces in - even if it is rocks with no corals at all - I have yet to figure out how these guys get from one coral to another - they likely just crawl over intervening rock work etc - that means they are likely at any one time basically everywhere - including on random rock work, maybe on the tank walls, maybe on the substrate cruising from one coral to the next - so if you do not treat everything, I think it is likely that you will miss just a few of these guys that over time will just repopulate your whole tank - I know some will say to just remove everything from your tank and treat in a quarantine location - that is just treating your whole tank in a different location with a lot of unecessary work

[herositaly]

these worms (turbellarie) they depose a lot of eggs and they are very quickly reproduced,
the only solution is to throw out of the aquarium the infected coral and to put him/it an a small tub for 25 minutes with inside water coming from the tub and 3 mls of Betadine (medicine) and the worms will be detached alone dead
then before inserting in coral in the principal tub it needs to have him/it clean with water of the aquarium

it takes a lot of patience and a lot of time.

us here in italia before inserting in the tub a new coral we purify him/it with the procedure that I have described you and batadine.

the worms arrive from the new corals that arrive from the coralfarms

[dolt]

herositaly - are you saying that betadine kills the eggs? or are you scraping them off before reinserting the coral?

[herositaly]

the true danger they are the eggs after having inserted the coral in the water with 3 mls of betadine for liter, it needs to help to detach the eggs.
don't leave the coral for more than 25 minutes water with betadine and then to help the removal of the eggs and dead turbellarie with a brush for the teeth is a lot of main point to clean the acropora with water of the aquarium before inserting her/it inside the aquarium
after the treatment the coral can be put again in the tub!
it works here in Italy we use this method,
and is successful!
especially for the prevention to always make a washing to the coral before inserting him/it inside aquarium

I hope that succeed in understanding well my English because is not very good!

[dolt]

no problem - I think I have got it - so you do a 3 mL betadine soak for 25 minutes and scrub the eggs off with a toothbrush - what is the total volume of water that the betadine goes into?

[dolt]

OK - so the weirdest thing just happened - I was finally getting around to doing my testing with prazipro and had pulled multiple mostly dead branches off of my valida to use in different concentrations baths - I had them all in one bowly and was going to select the ones that had the largest concentrations of worms on them to use for the tests - the water became very cloudy and I thought that it was just from the dying tissue washing off - but after awhile it began to look very strange - it was like one of those swarming masses of schools of small fish you see - the cloudy mass was migrating around the bowl and forming kind of linear densities within the larger cloud - I looked into it with the magnifying glass and it is clearly some free-swimming motile creatures - way too large to be bacteria and way too numerous to be pods etc - what seems very possible to me is that this is some motile form of the AEFW! - this answers the question of how they get from one colony to another on the other side of the tank - I bet that once they exhaust the food supply on one branch (many of the ones I selected were dead almost to the tips) they then somehow produce these motile larvae (may or may not produce some egg form in between, but this seems less likely given the time span witnessed) - it is simply amazing how many there are - I tried to take pics but as they are in the middle of the water column, the camera focuses on the bottom and does not turn out well

[herositaly]

the dosing is 3 mls of betadine for every liter of water 6 mls for 2 liters...
then already moving the acropora the worms they are detached only alone the eggs must have removed with brush from teeth!

important that water of the aquarium is withdrawn and then the acropora with water of aquarium is always washed for removing the residues of disinfectant
after a few hours the coral it opens the polyps I free from the worms.

this job must be done on all the infected acropores and on the acropores new purchase in coral farm where I am very infect!

[herositaly]

do you know betadine?
in US I don't know as it is the name
here you/he/she is sold in the pharmacy it is also disinfectant to wash the hands and also used by the physicians hospital
the jar where contained is it is of yellow color 250 mls
and in italy it costs around 5 European coins

[dolt]

here is a photo but it does not really do it justice but you might get the idea
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/larvaemass.jpg

[dolt]

see how the line at the bottome of the bowl looks cloudy? that is because there is this huge swarming mass of millions of something moving very rapidly - I apparently now will have to go back to my office and get my microscope to see if I can get more details

[herositaly]

few be seen by the photo!
with microscope you/he/she can be understood better
I am informed on the job of the worms turbellaria they begin to eat the fabric of the corals from the base and deposition of eggs.
but they crawls as nudibranco they don't swim

[dolt]

OK so I got the microscope and checked them out - they are really fast - wow! they are very small and kind of football shaped (american football that is!) with a red interior substance or spot on the rear end - there are just millions of them in one drop of water - they just zip across at supersonic speeds - these are definitely motile larvae of something - they came off this heavily infected piece of coral in a small bowl of water so that seems to narrow down the possibilties - I'm not sure if corals themselves have swimming gametes (I think they are just free-floating) - it seems most likely that these are the AEFW motile larvae - I wish I had a way to show photos of this to you guys from the microscope

[dolt]

so we could not really look at them closely as they were moving so fast - we put one drop of prazipro on them (granted this was into just in one drop of water on the slide) but it killed them instantly - I think many even ruptured - a few were still intact - they have the same little pigmented vacuoles inside them that the AEFW do - they also have cilia all over their body as opposed to a single flagellum

[herositaly]

betadine kills the eggs but it needs to detach the dead eggs with tooth brush from teeth.
be surer!

[herositaly]

these small very fast larvas are surely Krill

[herositaly]

Dolt do you have a photo of your tub?

[mntl]

How long can these things live with no food? I think a possible answer for those who are thinking of treating a whole system is to does something (FWE etc) that might not kill them unless over-dosed, but stun them or effect them enough to not eat. If this can be sustained should'nt they starve themselves off? Instead of going for a quick kill, can we effect them enough to get them to stop eating?

-John-

[dolt]

I have been staring at this thing under 1000x magnification and there seem to be many small rectangular pieces wtih rounded edges that are moving around inside this larger organism - they seem to be moving about on their own - it is a stretch but are these possibly small flat worms inside the larger motile organism that simply get transported to a new site and then released? they do not seem to be some sort of organelles as they are very numerous and can be seen to be moving about on their own and flexing etc

[dolt]

mntl - several have tried treating with FWE once per week over several weeks and it does not work over time - they simply come back

[dolt]

I have been working on trying the praziquantel - the first thing I noticed was the viscosity of this stuff - it is like syrup -they say that it contains oxybispropanol as a solubulizing agent and this must be what it making it so thick - it was impossible to even draw up into a fine needled syringe - then when I was finally able to get it into the test water, it formed an oil slick on the surface - I tried to mix it around well. but am not sure if any of the med is even in the water - after one hour and 45 minutes at containers of 1, 2 and 3x recommeneded dosage, the worms seem unaffected - this may be because the med is not soluble in water (not sure if this the case - I'll have to look into that) and is not reaching the AEFW in sufficient concentrations due to this - if it is not readily soluble in water, we may have to try much higher doses to reach appreciable water concentrations

[dolt]

the bayer site states that 0.4 grams are soluble in water - given that I am not sure why then prazi pro has this what appears to be a non-soluble in water solubulizing agent? it seems that if the drug is more soluble in that than water, then it is going to remain in the solubulizing agent instead even when it is added to water - seems to make more sense to then possibly try the praziquantel from pill form and grind it up like we did with the interceptor - the problem is that this is then not going to be readily available to all people as it is prescription only - that is why I wanted to try the prazi pro as it is readily available - I did find a dog worm med online that is called drontal, but I do not know if it is Rx, and another problem is that it contains two other meds that I know nothing about, but are supposed to help fight dog worm infections

[dolt]

also I looked up photos of krill larvae online and what I saw was most definitely not krill larvae

[gflat65]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7540572#post7540572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dolt
mntl - several have tried treating with FWE once per week over several weeks and it does not work over time - they simply come back

I think what mntl was implying here is that they cannot live without a food source. Many have posted a 5-7 day life span without food in the system (no telling how old they were when they started documenting, though). Now, I'm sure this varies, but if the corals are removed from the system for long enough (mine were out for 30 days, while the colonies were in treatment-it was no fun and a lot of work), when the food source dries up, so will the flatworms in that tank. I don't think ayone has had success with FWE. Levamisole seems to work, but can be tricky in terms of mortality rate (as I found out). I didn't see a single AEFW after the first treatment with Levamisole, and have not seen any since. It has been just under two months since I ended treatments, though.

[Sparkss]

I think it was stated in one of the AEFW threads (may have even been this one, I don't recall where I read it) that a minimum "dry" period (IE: no Acros in the tank) of 24 days is required to starve out the AEFWs. That comes from a combination of their lifespan and gestation period, both of which are not guaranteed (but are pretty commonly accepted as accurate, or accurate enough) :).

5 days til they die without food
14 days for the eggs to hatch

24 days = 5 days til the AEFWs die, if they lay eggs on their last day then 14 more days to hatch and 5 more for those to die.

It is more common to carry this out for a month (or at least 4 weeks). During the "dry" period the acros are all going through what gflat65 outlined in, again, one of the AEFW threads, as well as several other posters have shared similar regimes. It involves putting all of your acros into a QT system and treating them weekly with levamisole and inspecting for eggs, etc. As gflat65 stated, it is no fun and generally alot of work all around.

HTH :)

[dolt]

sorry - maybe I misunderstood what mntl was saying - now that I re-read it I think he is talking about treating them in tank at lower med doses and leaving it in so that they are stunned enough to not eat but not die and they will eventually starve without eating
one interesting side note is that in one research paper I read online was that in some species there are two types of eggs - one that lasts for short periods laid in good conditions and another for when conditions are bad that can last for several months - sorry I don't have the link but I have read so much in the past few days and I have no idea where I found it

[SERVO]

Wow! Flagellated mobile larvae? It would be nice if we had a marine biologist chime in here. I would love to hear there input. This thread has some good basic science in it.

[dolt]

yeah, but unfortunately no good success stories - the prazi pro at 5x recommended doses for about five hours did not seem to touch the AEFW - I am going to try some higher doses in a bowl but I would have more concerns about it's safety in the tank at such high doses

[mntl]

maybe I misunderstood what mntl was saying - now that I re-read it I think he is talking about treating them in tank at lower med doses and leaving it in so that they are stunned enough to not eat but not die and they will eventually starve without eating

This is exactly what I was saying. This seems like the least obtrusive thing to due for those who cannot remove the acros and must treat the display as it should require lower doses than one that kills them within hours. How much lavamisole (anything) etc. does it take to visibly make them react (squirm etc.), this should show that they are discomforted and possibly to enough of a point where they will not eat. Keep them in this state, which should kill them off in a week or so (starve them off) and then the eggs when they hatch. But atleast they would not be harming anything at this point.

This will definately take some experimenting though. Can anyone seclude them and try different products to see the minimum doseage it takes to make them react, even iff only slightly?

Sorry if I was unclear the first time through (or this time for that matter :) )

-John-

[gflat65]

In the new Reef Aquarium Vol 3, they mention the use of Levamisole as a whole tank treatment, but had issues with them returning. The dosage is, of course, much lower, but it had been done. Keeping something stunned for 5 days be a very delicate balance for the rest of the tanks inhabitants. Then to have to repeat to get the eggs, etc., would be pretty stressful, I would think.

Removing them all is certainly the best option. I had a 125 with 55-60 acro colonies and frags, many of which were encrusted. using bone shears, I was able to get them and the encrustation out. Once again, certainly no fun, but I haven't seen any of the culprits in quite some time.

[Sparkss]

There are known issues with leaving FWE in the tank (IE: not running carbon, WC, etc). Habib definitely doesn't recommend it and there is at least one thread that documented the coral losses incurred by someone who was a little "lazy" (his own words to descibe his actions) and didn't do the WC or add fresh GAC for days. It was not a pretty site to see the coral flesh slooughing off the skeletons. So FWE would not be an option for your plans, and I don't think that the person even majorlky overdosed like most of us did when testing for AEFW treatments.

[AcanLord]

Gflat65
Hi. How many times did you treat your corals? How long now have you not seen any further coral damage?
I thought I was sucessful, but they came back exactly on the sixth months after quaranteen and treatment.

[gflat65]

I started treatments around the end of March and ran four treatments for a just a little over the prescribed doseage fo Levamisole. I set up a 20 long and moved all acros into it for the duration and completely cleaned the tank after each dosage to ensure there were no flat worms left on the glass, etc. I treated the entire tank and added 100% cycled water from the main display (and had been doing changes from the main display almost daily or every other day). Like I said, it's been just under two months or so since I finished (4-23), so there may be more in store. I had to restock because I lost a number in the process. All replacement corals (regardless of what they are) now go into quarantine for at least four weeks with frequent TMPCC dips...

[dolt]

I am beginning to wonder if I may have to follow the same path with the removing to treat - did you guys remove the rocks or just take corals off the rocks? my tank has been up in it's current location for over four years and some colonies are quite large and growing all over the place - it would break my heart to destroy them to get them out - I also have concerns about doing all that and having them return several months down the road - possibly due to non-removed eggs or other reasons
-one other side note is that I think after playing with it for awhile the prazi pro is soluble in water - when first put in it forms a milky slick on the salt water but then after mixing the milky stuff disappears and only a very small amount of clear oily slick is left - this am I could not find any worms on the corals that were left in the bath of this overnight, but I could not see any in the controls either - I'll check them out more closely when I get home

[gflat65]

I pulled most of them off rocks, but had two larger rocks that had several large colonies encrusted. I ended up breaking them off the rock, too, as I began to believe that the Levamisole was absorbing into the rock during treatment and releasing throughout the week. I may have been grasping at straws, though. I seemed to lose more several days after each treatment, than right away...

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7544034#post7544034 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dolt
I am beginning to wonder if I may have to follow the same path with the removing to treat - did you guys remove the rocks or just take corals off the rocks? my tank has been up in it's current location for over four years and some colonies are quite large and growing all over the place

I removed all 80 or so acro colonies from my 280. Many of them were well encrusted and got broken up quite a bit when I removed them. After I got all of the acros out, I took each rock and inspected it for any encrusted bases that were left behind and then chiseled these off and threw them in the garbage. It wasn't easy and definitely wasn't fun, but it was the "surest" thing to do at the time. Some of my colonies were pretty encrusted and this tank had only been setup for 18 months. I can't imagine the encrusing you would be dealing with in a 4 year old tank.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7537014#post7537014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sparkss
I had read and been told about the radiant wrasses also. They are on our list for acquisition :)

I dont have AEFW at this point (knock on wood)


But I just wanted to chime in, My radiant, my melanarus, and my meleagris leapord all eat the brown/red flatworms

[Kent E]

This might seem strange, but what about emerald crabs? Some people noticed some sort of corelation between interceptor and AEFW which was not found to be conclusive at all. But what if emeralds pick at them somewhat. Now if we intercepted a tank emeralds wouldn't be there. I do know that they crawl into sps and pick around without harming the coral. For some reason the AEFWs are now under control.

[dirtyreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7545763#post7545763 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
I pulled most of them off rocks, but had two larger rocks that had several large colonies encrusted. I ended up breaking them off the rock, too, as I began to believe that the Levamisole was absorbing into the rock during treatment and releasing throughout the week. I may have been grasping at straws, though. I seemed to lose more several days after each treatment, than right away...

When you ran each treatment, did you notice things like extended PE or coloration changes on any acros? I have almost no PE on all my acros and am wondering if you would notice right away whether the treatment is working or not by signs from the acro itself?

[dirtyreefer]

Also, where can one get Levamisole? Any suggestions where I can purchase this online?

I am upgrading my current tank within the next week or two and would like to treat all my acros in a separate tank before introducing them to my new tank. The last thing I want is to setup a new tank and have this problem, only to have to rip it down again to try to erradicate these bastards.

[Travis]

Hi dirtyreefer,
You can get it online at barnstocker.com.
You can try locally at a large animal vet, it is a pig dewormer.
You can also try a local ag supply store. I got mine at a Sioux Nation ag supply locally.

[gflat65]

I didn't see a big difference immediately on PE, but coloring certainly went to the bad side. Most things turned brown after treatments. Since I did the treatments in a bare bottom with nothing else in it except the acros, I was able to monitor by blasting the corals to see if anything came off of them, and also by watching the nasties crawling around on the glass. Before the first treatment, there were AEFW's all over on the glass, but none after the first treatment. I rinsed the tank and equipment after each treatment under hot water and vinegar.

I got my Levamisole from the local farmer's Co op.

[dirtyreefer]

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I may need to purchase the levamisole from the vet since I don't think I can mail order it up here to Canada.

Sure sounds like a painful exercise though, I wish there was an easy in tank treatment like Interceptor is for AERB. :rolleyes: I don't mind treating in a QT, however this stuff just seems so destructive (and unpredictable) to the acro itself :(

[dirtyreefer]

Check this thread out, some interesting finds:

Link (http://www.zeovit.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2529.html)

[dolt]

interesting - I do not know much about this class of meds so I looked some stuff up - one thing for sure is that some meds in this class are fairly toxic to animals (and therefore likely to fish) with a LD 50 of 370mg/kg (one pound equals 2.2kg) in mice - therefore this does not seem like a good in tank treatment, but maybe a dip? - apparently this guys acros did not like it either - they all died in his QT tank - it appears that this stuff binds more selectively to sodium channels in the nervous system of insects and is supposed to do this much less so in humans - it is actually more sensitive to light than water (at least some of the older compounds) and many are not very soluble in water limiting their utility in our application

[dirtyreefer]

Form someone who is "self-employed", you sure sound like you know your medical stuff :)

[dolt]

I never said what I was self employed at!:)

[impur]

Good info coming from this thread, keep it up dolt!!!

I'm setting up my QT tank this weekend, got my TMPCC for the dips, so i'm ready to go to war on these buggers.

[SaraB]

I have been watching this thread as well as the other one in this forum and have been wondering if I have these dreaded little monsters as well. Another Acro started to recede on Sunday before I left for a business trip. I came home today and I still had some of the receding Acro left and I sent it for a TMPCC dip and I finally made a discovery ... I now have AEFW's! In the past couple months I had dipped other acros that were doing the same thing and came up with nothing every time. I guess back to re-reading all the threads and I will be getting the QT tank up and running!

Thanks to everyone here who shares experiences/information on these buggers to help us all along with the treatment process!

Sara

[dolt]

Sara - sorry to hear about that - do you have the big ones or are they the small ones?

I am still unclear on many items of the life cycle and different species of these worms - why don't we try to see what everyone has - if you have photos please post them - maybe we can see what is out there that way - on a few of the other big threads there are a few photos but not a lot (and what appear to be several different species) - if you have photos post em and if you don't, take them and then post them! this is important as we all may be trying to treat different species that may or may not respond to the same treatments - maybe that is why we see different outcomes with similar treatments

[SaraB]

dolt - When I initially noticed RTN and paths of eaten Acro tissue on my 2 Nana's, I dipped and found nothing. I have dipped a total of 6 acro's several times over a 2 month timeframe and finally came up with the "standard" looking AEFW on Friday. All of these dips I was using TMPCC. I had noticed with my earlier dips on the Nana's exactly what you saw in your above posting that was the small dark ones, but I just figured it was an algae growing on the dead tissue and did not pay much attention to it. I also closely inspected all of these for egg areas as well and found nothing. On this latest Acro I found a total of 4 adult AEFW's. I have one other Acro (Hoke) that was infected with this same tissue eaten path about 1 month ago and I dipped it again on Friday and found nothing. It appears that the AEFW had stopped eating on that one after it's dip 1 month ago as it is not showing fresh bites at all. I have lost the 2 Nana's and 2 other unidentified Acro's from this.

I did not take photo's of the standard looking AEFW's, just of the damage they have done to the 2 corals. They are still floating dead in a bowl, but I have spent too much money on corals to get a camera with a good macro lens for close-ups.

I will be starting my 4 week QT treatment tomorrow in a 10 gallon tank. I did this for 3 weeks for Red Bug's about 2 months ago and it worked well. I only have about 20 Acro's left and none have yet to encrust past their rubble rock, so I am in better shape there. I have not yet decided which treatment to use ... TMPCC dips or 10 gallon Levamisole treatments at 60ppm for 6-7 hours. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Sara

[gflat65]

Sara,

Were they the clear AEFW's or the brownish red AEFW's? Aside fomr the different sized ones, there are at least two of the larger variety. With enough info from everyone (and some self starters like dolt), maybe we can figure these guys out... I haven't seen any since the four levamisole treatments, but that's not to say I won't see more in the future, either from new frags or returns of the old culprits. All new frags are being QT'd and dipped, so I hope to not get hit from that side again...

[SaraB]

gflat65 - Mine are the clear AEFW's.

[clkwrk]

I beat them with TMPCC, lots of wrasses and frequently blasting corals with my tunze's. The last time I had seen any or blown any off a coral was around 2 months ago. I started with a good population and over the course of the last 5 months or so they have decline in number . The main thing for me was to stay on top of it . Favorites seemed to be any smooth bodied acro and mille's. All my corals are 100% tissue or near . I also still look over every coral every day just to make sure I don't miss a thing.

[clkwrk]

Also just a note a full bottle of TMPCC will treat approx 10g of water. I did 10g tanks full of acros on a few ocassions. Worst part of the dips was getting all my acro crabs out of the corals.

[SERVO]

Any updates on your treatment battle Dolt?

OK, so everyone that has had the unfortunate event of finding these little *$&#@!(, where do you think that you got them?

Do you suspect a wild colony or was it a frag? If it was a frag, did the person whom you got if from experience similar events.

Finally, are there any of you that hadn't placed anything into your tank for quite some time before the infection? If so, what was the time period? Was it greater than the 30 day magic life cycle?

[impur]

I had not added any new corals for about 45 days or more before i finally noticed a coral going downhill or any signs of AEFW for that matter. It took about 20 days for them to almost completely eat that small colony.

[badbones]

I just picked up a couple of small colonies and frags from a friend who told me he was having problems keeping them. After I inspected them, I saw the tell tale bite marks and eggs on the skeleton next to the tissue.

I read somewhere, not sure this thread or another, to dip in Betadine. I used 1.5 ml betadine per 2 cups of tank water and left them in 20-25 mins. I then lightly basted the corals a couple times in the dip and the worms easily came off and started to squirm (in agony I hope) on the bottom. At the end of the dip I washed/basted them in fresh tank water and put them in the qt tank.

On the bottom of the cup I saw several worms, all DEAD, and other things (starfish, pods and such) all dead. I scraped all the eggs off the corals I could see.

With in a few hours, all polyps were out somewhat. Not full, but there. Its been a couple days and all are fine. PE is looking better and the corals lightened up just a tad.

Again I read that this is what some have done in Europe and looks promising. Best of all CHEAP!!!! I however used the brand name and not generic as there were some others things in the generic. Still only cost $12!!!!! at the grocery store.

Anyone else try this? Still not an intake cure, but treatment looks promising.

I would be interested if someone with the skill and patience could really test this and monitor it as I am not the best and am limited on time at times.

By the way I also read that it kills the eggs, but it was recommended to scrape them off also. This was what I read to be the most interesting and promising!!!

Good luck with these pests
Tony:D

[badbones]

double post..sorry

[Sparkss]

badbones,
pretty sure the betadine treatment was posted in this thread. I am relieved to hear that it seemed to work well and your coral survived. Let us know how it holds up over the next couple of days.

And I think that the original poster did say that the eggs were impacted, but that they would "fall off" the coral too. Still, I will be anxiously watching for your updates on the general health of that dipped coral :). BTW, are you keeping it in a separate QT tank for now ?

[SaraB]

Here is the damaged coral that I finally found the AEFW's on.
<img src="http://www.toizrit.com/fishtank/bug1.JPG"></img>


This is a photo of the Hoke that had a prior problem. I also have a question regarding what the color of the water should be with the TMPCC. My bottle is broken and the squirt portion does not work. Instead the liquid comes out the lower opening when pumped, so I am not sure of how much constitutes a pump. What should the color does it look like when mixed with water. Please use the below photo for a color guide as it has different shades of color ...

You can also see the "dead" items in the bottom of the bowl ... that's a bristle worm to the right.

<img src="http://www.toizrit.com/fishtank/bug2.JPG"></img>

[gflat65]

The water can turn a nice brown with TMPCC. The dose is 1 ml per 200ml, according to the bottle. If my conversion is correct, that is 1ml squirt per ~7 oz. of water. Many are overdosing, though.

[Sparkss]

our doses have varied in color, even though the amount of water (I marked the dip container at 200 ML gradients) and the stock TMPCC plunger was used to "squirt" the same amount of TMPCC. It is really hard to tell color from a picture, since it has nothing as a reference. Also, the amount of water will affect the color (depth of water makes it darker, lighter, etc in appearance).

That being said, your color looks about right, maybe on the lower end of our expereinces, but we may also be in the "overdosing" category that gflat65 mentioned. I had read somewhere that it should be a coffe brown, wo when we dose, I do the standard squirt then add as I feel is needed for the specimen and color results.

I know this really is not the exact answer you were looking for, but I hope that it at least helps.

[SaraB]

Thanks! The "nice brown" and "coffee brown" references help me out quite a bit as this stuff just pours directly out of the plunger and not the dispenser tip.

[badbones]

Sparkss

It may have been this thread wher I read it. There have been so many topics on this and I just could not remember. I just noted the doseage and moved on.

On a side not, I dipped a couple in lugols, 6-7 drops in 2 cups of water. It losened them, but did not kill them. Did the same with the same coral and it really loosened more that the lugals did not seem to bother.

Hopefully someone else will try this and post the results.

[impur]

I did a TMPCC dip on a few corals over the weekend. I saw a few small FW in the container, not what i was expecting though. I found at the recommended dosage, 1 squirt per 200ml water, that it did not kill off all redbugs either. Obviously overdosing is needed with this dip.

[Sparkss]

I believe that TPMCC was noted not to be 100% effective against Red Bugs. I have been told this by multiple sources in the industry. HTH.

[SaraB]

What does everyone do with their Acro Crabs? I am doing the 4 week QT process, so I know to pull them off before the dips, but can they return to the acro after the treatment back in the QT tank? If I put them all in the main tank, there are no acro's for them to live on and I don't want them to die. LMK what has worked for you.

Sara

[SERVO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7587667#post7587667 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by impur
I had not added any new corals for about 45 days or more before i finally noticed a coral going downhill or any signs of AEFW for that matter. It took about 20 days for them to almost completely eat that small colony.

This dormant period really freaks me out! 45 days! Ouch. This can make it almost impossible to determine where your problems have come from. :eek1:

[markabdoney]

What is the difference between betadine and Lugol's?

[dolt]

mark - I am not sure what the exact difference is but if you look earlier in the thread, herositaly was stating that they use betadine in Italy and he gives the dose - this would be easier for most people as I think you can get betadine at almost any pharmacy and I would think that it would be cheaper than lugols

[Obi-dad]

From wiki - Betadine is a povidone-iodine solution (povidone is a water-soluble polymer made from the monomer N-vinyl pyrrolidone). Most over-the-counter solutions are 10% povidone-iodine. Lugol's consists of 5% iodine (I2) and 10% potassium iodide (KI) in distilled water with total iodine content of 130 mg/mL.

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7590319#post7590319 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO
This dormant period really freaks me out! 45 days! Ouch. This can make it almost impossible to determine where your problems have come from. :eek1:

Not really a dormant period, just taking them that long to multiply and spread to the point where they are doing visible damage. It has been noted that by the time you see the damage it is usually well into the "game", so to speak. :(

[SaraB]

Any new updates?

I am going to wait to treat in QT until after the 4th of July holiday as I am on vacation and don't have anyone to watch the QT tank for 6 days. The evaporation happens fast on the 10 gallon and I don't have a auto top-off system for it.

Any, any recommendations on the acro crab question I posted abover? Can they be removed for the dip and then go back on the Acro's in QT? I want to keep as many as I can.

Sara

[Sparkss]

Sara,

I was hoping someone else would chime in about the crabs, because unfortuately all I have to offer in answer is : I have never been able to keep them alive. They either stuck with teh acro and died from the treatment/QT or I was able to safely get them off (without damaging or killing them) and they died away from the acro for so long (while the acro was in QT, getting repeated dips).

Not exactly the answer you wanted, I know, but I hope it helps

[SaraB]

I re-dipped my coral today ... the one that I found AEFW's on last Friday and is pictured above. I used the Tropic Marin Coral Cure again and found another 5 or 6 flat worms in various sizes. They again were the more clear ones and they have a darker colored Y on what I call the head end of the worm. I only have a 30x magnifying glass but I was able to locate some what I call black specks that were moving on the coral. I took a toothbrush and got them off, but I am not sure what these were. I have still not been able to locate any eggs, but they must be somewhere. I just hope the coral can hang on until a full QT treatment.

Sara

[impur]

What strength did you dip them at?

[SaraB]

Since my pump mechanism is broke on the bottle, I am not really sure. They die in about 10 minutes though. Looks like a bit weak coffee in a white mug. There's a photo above ... the entire color is the darker of the photo.

Sara

[badbones]

Betadine update!!!

Its been over a week now since I dipped the SPS. I have not lost one and they all are looking perfect. The color has returned and the polyps are fully extended. I just finished dipping a couple of them, and not an AEFW. One does have some eggs that I could not get to, so I thought I would watch it from the first dip. It looks like they are all still there. Dead. I dont know. I will keep this updated for any changes or until next weekends dips!!!

Can someone else try this to see if they have the same results.

As for red bugs. No clue since I don't have them. And really dont want them!!\

[SaraB]

badbones - I would be willing to try it on 2 my of acro's that have AEFW, just not all of my colonies. I can locate this at the local drugstore like Walgreens or Osco?

Sara

[badbones]

I bought it at the grocery store right off the shelf. So I bet you can get it anywhere. I would suggest use the name brand and not generic since when I compaired the labels, the generic had some other stuff in it. I am not an RX so have no idea if it would make a difference.

Good luck and I hope it works for you too. I would not do colonies either yet until this proves to work well. But signs are great that it will. Keep us posted if you do it!!!

[badbones]

I was screwing around last night with the stuff, throwing what ever I could find in it. Wll it killed all mysis, copepods,starfish. I threw in a couple 3" bristle worms and after 20mins they were still alive and squirming. I left them in there over night and by morning the water cleared and they were still alive. I guess the cockroach of the sea.

I am kinda disapointed as I was hoping it will kill everything. So far it has killed the AEFW.

Does the TMPCC kill bristle worms?? Just curious

[SaraB]

Yes, the TMPCC does kill bristle worms. Both dips on the above coral had a bristle worm hiding in the plug and it killed them as well.

[badbones]

Sara,

were they large ones or small?? I wonder if that makes a difference. I am going to try and find some small ones and see if that works

[davejnz]

I found this study doing a search on Google.
Control of Predacious Flatworms Macrostomum sp. in Culturing Juvenile Freshwater Mussels

Lora L. Zimmerman and Richard J. Neves

Virginia Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit,1 U.S. Geological Survey, Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0321, USA

Doug G. Smith

Department of Biology, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts 01003-5810, USA

Abstract.—Flatworms of the genus Macrostomum are voracious predators on newly metamorphosed juvenile freshwater mussels (Unionidae), which require a fish host to transform mussel larvae into free-living juveniles. Toxicity tests were performed with formalin (paracide-F, 37% formaldehyde) to determine the appropriate levels of treatment for eradicating these flatworms from host fish tanks without adversely affecting the culture of juvenile mussels. Results indicate that a 1-h shock treatment of 250 mg/L formalin or a 3-d continuous exposure to 20 mg/L of formalin kills adult Macrostomum but not fish. Observations indicate that a single treatment is insufficient to kill Macrostomum eggs, so a second treatment after 3 d is necessary to kill newly hatched flatworms. Newly metamorphosed freshwater mussels exposed to similar shock and continuous treatments of formalin were also killed. Thus, all host fish introduced for the purpose of mussel production should be quarantined and treated prophylactically to avoid the infestation of mussel culture systems with predacious flatworms.

Received: February 28, 2002; Accepted: July 1, 2002

[SaraB]

badbones - They were smaller bristle worms ... an inch and under sizes.

I also came home from the weekend to a completely white coral last night. The coral that I had ID'ed the AEFW's gave up its fight. The only piece I have left that is showing current AEFW damage is just a 1" frag. I found the Betadine at Osco today for $17.50, but I did not purchase it as I have nothing to try it on. I am going to start my QT tank and the first treatment on Wednesday with Levamisole as I found someone to do top-off's over the holiday weekend. Wish me luck!

[gflat65]

You'll be hating life and cusing at some point, but find the happy place;). The first five hours are the easy part. The swishing and transfering and equipment cleaning, etc., is what gets ya;). Good luck with it Sara. Just don't try to rush anything. I have seen no signs of AEFW since I did it. It has only been around three months ago, though.

[SaraB]

gflat65 - At least I have been partly broke-in with doing the 3 wks in QT with Red Bugs. For the AEFW, how long did you leave the acro's in Levamisole? I thought I had read 6-7 hours, correct? I don't want to overdo it.

[gflat65]

I started moving everything back after five hours (which took a few hours in all), but several other people went longer and dosed a little more. I had AEFW's on the glass before the first treatment and never saw a sign after. I only found eggs on one coral, and it was the first to go (prompting the treatment). I did four treatments...

[trueblackpercula]

what a great thread now for my question is there a preventive messure that should be taken before i add corals to my tank? And is so what should i use to dip them.
Thanks
Michael

[SaraB]

The preventative measures are to either dip your SPS in a mixture of Levamisole for AEFW and then Interceptor for Red Bugs or use something like Tropic Marin Coral Cure and then inspect them with a magnifying glass to make sure that there are no egg sac's still attached OR if you want to be really safe, put your new corals into a QT tank for 4 weeks and do the above treatments several times to make close to 100% sure that you will not be infecting your tank with any of the pests. Just my thoughts on this topic.

[trueblackpercula]

sara B,
Thanks for the info, so this stuff really works Tropic Marin Coral Cure. I will get some from an online vendor.

[SaraB]

Frag Farmer has it in stock. On the website search under SPS and then Wild SPS and it should be listed along with the corals.

[salt-rookie]

Does TMCC nuke both Red Bugs and AEFWs?

[impur]

Yes, but you must user a stronger dosage than they recommend IME.

[trueblackpercula]

fragfammer list it as not in stock.

[SaraB]

They must have sold out just today as it was available last evening when I looked. I would send him an email and ask when he's getting more in as that is the only place that I have found it so far.

[trueblackpercula]

Yup eric always has the good stuff :)

[salt-rookie]

How much stronger dosage should you use? How long should you soak frags in TMCC to be secure that you are not introducing any parasites to your tank?

[oddballs]

can you guys post some pics of the eggs??this thread is great keep it up guys!!

[salt-rookie]

I'd like to see pictures of the eggs too!

[SaraB]

The attached thread will keep you busy for awhile! On Page #1, third photo down is a great shot of a egg cluster ... happy reading!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=756327&highlight=AEFW

[salt-rookie]

How do you scrape these eggs off without tearing flesh from the coral skeleton?

[gflat65]

Toothbrush it. Many will just sacrifice that part of the coral to ensure that the eggs are gone. Some are just putting glue or putty over the eggs, also.

[impur]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7639548#post7639548 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by salt-rookie
How much stronger dosage should you use? How long should you soak frags in TMCC to be secure that you are not introducing any parasites to your tank?

A minimum of 2X. I previously did a dip with TMPCC at the recommended dosage and it did not kill off all AEFW or redbugs. It did get some. When i dip my corals i will most likely step up the dosage each dip, i.e. 2X strength first dip, 3X on second, 4X on the third and 5X for the final dip. All will be done a week apart.

[gflat65]

Something that has had me questioning dips from QT is that the flatworms will cruise around the tank. I had them all over the glass in my QT tank before the first Levamisole treatment. If I had only dipped, they would have still been on the glass when I returned the coral... I didn't have the best of luck treating an entire QT tank, but just doing dips seems like it might leave the door open. I guess this is where observation comes in... It all just seems iffy (though I have no other procedures that might do any better). I'm wondering if alternating between full tank treatments (on anything larger than a 5 gallon would mean alot of TMPCC if dosing more than 1X...) and dips with the final dip sending the frag to the display might be a better path. Just thinking out loud.

[impur]

Hmmm that is a very good point, one i hadn't considered. And here i thought i had a perfect plan. The only real concern for me is getting them off the coral and at the same time starving them in the display. I guess it would still involve cleaning the whole QT tank, just as you did with your lev treatment.

[salt-rookie]

Thank you GFlat!

[SaraB]

gflat65 - you saying that dipping and NOT changing the QT water would leave the coral open to getting the AEFW's that still were alive in the QT tank, right? I agree and can see that not being a good thing. I would recommend dipping or treating with Levamisole outside of the QT tank, using QT water and then thoroughly cleaning the QT tank and replacing with fresh water before returning the freshly treated corals to the QT environment ... all until you can do it again next week. Does that make sense???

[gflat65]

It may have been overkill, but I cleaned (hot water and vinegar) all the equipment in the tank between treatments, too. It just seemed like they could have still be there and with what I was going through, I figured I ought to find things to add to the routine... I had alot of loses, though.

I had been doing water changes out of the display every second or third day (5 gallon on ~15 gallon volume in QT). Then I did a 100% water change the day of the treatment by way of treating the tank and moving the corals to water change water from the display and thowing out the QT water (and rinsing the equipment and tank out with hot water and vinegar-let cool before adding water...). I moved the heater from the QT tank into the water change water from the display to make it the same temp as the QT tank to reduce temp stresses. I'm not sure where I went wrong, but had a lot of losses. I had large rocks with several corals encrusted in the QT (made it easier to do the whole rock...), so I started thinking the rock may be leaching Levamisole back out over the course of the week or something. Don't know if that is a likelihood, but sounded good at the time (too much humble pie at that point). I chipped the corals off the large rocks after the third treatment and had fewer loses by percentage (though no direct correlation). The skimmer would only pull a miniscule amount of brown slimy stuff and stop skimming all together (it's not the best-Berlin Turbo HOB). That may have helped, too. I'm sure there were some temp swings, too, with a 175 over a 20L. Maybe my mishaps will help someone else...

[impur]

Ok i'm still going with the dips. It will just involve a lot more cleaning and WCs than i planned. Thats ok though, i want to save my corals. So i'll do the weekly dips in a bucket, drain all water out of QT, approx 12-15 gal, and rinse the QT tank, sump and equip with FW each time. I'll have to take water from the display and do larger WCs there to make up for it. Phew, this is gonna be a chore!

[SaraB]

imour - what product are you using for your dips? TMPCC or Levamisole?

[impur]

TMPCC. I dipped my oregon tort last night in about 150mL water and 2 pumps of TMPCC for about 20 min. All redbugs and visible FW were gone after the dip. The dip was really too dark to see any of them in the container though.

[SaraB]

Thanks impur! I have both products but I am still pondering which one to use starting today.

[impur]

Well let us know which direction you go and how its working. Any info we can get helps the next person out!


Miles

[trueblackpercula]

impur
Any ill affects to the coral today? are the pylops out ? ETC.
Michael

[SaraB]

Well, as of 4:30 all acros are taking a bath in Levamisole. I may do TMPCC for the 2nd treatment as I may not have enough time to do a 6 hour bath next Wed. before coming home from the long weekend and catching a flight to DC. I'll keep you posted!

Also, it appears that the AEFW's decided to start eating the Hoeke again that I dipped 2 Fridays ago and is pictured earlier ... &*@# Bugs!

Sara

[clkwrk]

I beat them doing TMPCC dips only . I only lost 2 acros to the dip and I think I may have had it too strong and left them in too long.

[trueblackpercula]

There has to be a natural predator for this bug.

[impur]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7646983#post7646983 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by trueblackpercula
impur
Any ill affects to the coral today? are the pylops out ? ETC.
Michael

The O tort had full PE after about 15 min. Looks great today!!

clkwrk - can you give me a little info on the procedure you used? Duration? Number of dips? Thanks a ton! I'm glad to hear someone beat them with dips, gives me some hope!

[rtbm]

Well I seem to have found the smaller darker ones. There was some question about the eggs. I believe that I have found eggs as well. They are a reddish circle made up of multiple dark dots. About six to nine. I will try to get a photo but they are really really small. I watched one of these under a gem magnifying glass and observed what seemed to be an alarmingly fast hatch rate. I siphoned directly off an infected area and found at least three of the individual circles. I could actually see little moving worms in the dots. The circles were smaller than the tip of a mechanical pencil lead. the worms themselves are almost invisible to the eye. So while I also can't say where they came from the coral I found them on had been in there over a year. But about three weeks ago I added five emerald crabs. It was very soon after that the now infected milli caught my attention. Could there be some relation between the two? The last coral I added was months ago? who knows. at this point it doesn't really matter. I will be following this thread and adding any relevant info that I come across.

[wentreefgirl]

Ok, seeing how this is getting out of control maybe we should start some more experiments on these buggers. I pulled up human paracite control and came up with a few names of meds. Of course not sure if they would be effectiver or safe on our critters but when the corals end up looking like those pics, its worth a try. I see something thats over the counter for pin worms, an intestinal paracite. Pinx. Dosage Instructions

Pyrantel Pamoate 50 mg./ml

Niclosamide (Nicloside)

And my favorite: Metronidazole (Flagyl) -- Imidazole ring-based antibiotic active against various anaerobic bacteria and protozoa.

This you can get i believe over the counter at the fish store, will check. This sounds like a great option unless its been tried?

[rtbm]

yes I agree. I am willing to experiment here. With these smaller ones I could easily see them going unnoticed as the cause of a corals demise. really you cant see them without a good magnifying glass. Who knows how many people have these and don't know it. it was almost a fluke that I spotted them. And at this point I am not certain whether a healthy coral has some type of resistance to these. the only two corals of mine that show signs were fragged leaving exposed skeleton seemingly ready to be invaded. This is just an observation.
I guess I will soon find out. as of now all other acros look perfect.

[wentreefgirl]

http://www.thatpetplace.com/Products/KW/metronidazole/Class//T1/F41AX+0553+0008/EDP/49501/Itemdy00.aspx
This is what im referring to with the flagyl metronidazole.
http://www.thatpetplace.com/Products/KW/metronidazole/Class//T1/F41DX+0343+0338/EDP/45756/Itemdy00.aspx

[rtbm]

Almost seems to easy. definitely worth researching I think.
In regards to my previous post about the eggs. after further inspection what I was looking at I believe was a shriveled polyp from a red table acro that appeared to be being eaten or at least surrounded and attacked by the little worms. definitely not eggs.

[sangraal]

Has anyone tried dylox?

[wentreefgirl]

http://www.myfishforum.com/thread2828.html
Found this on Dylox, not sure if it would be ok for coral, but experiment in order.

[MSHUR]

GUYS,
anyone try to use prazi-pro to threat the whole tank? i am not sure if this a reef safe product?
any updates on this one?

mike

[Sparkss]

Mike,

That has been discussed, tested and dicounted in several threads, including this one, I thought. Do a search on AEFW and Prazi-Pro.

Short answer is no, it doesn't work.

[clkwrk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7647607#post7647607 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by impur
The O tort had full PE after about 15 min. Looks great today!!

clkwrk - can you give me a little info on the procedure you used? Duration? Number of dips? Thanks a ton! I'm glad to hear someone beat them with dips, gives me some hope!

Sorry I missed this . I started by treating indivdual corals and then I decide to reaquacape . When I did that I treated to 10g tanks stuffed full of layers of corals. I treated them all at once.Pulling out every acro crab prior. About 3 weeks later I decided to upgrade tanks so I started dipping colonies once again for good measure. Then once again I treated all my corals while I had them out for my tank swap. I have since did one more round on every coral. This was about 4 weeks ago that I did the last one.

[Chads29]

just wondering if anyone has tried fw eating nudibraches?

seems if we could find a natural predator it would be easier to treat with them than chemicals.

[Sparkss]

Do a search chads29. Suggested and tried more than once and at least once in a controlled setting. No go. The general search for a natural predator has been discussed multiple times, and there are a couple of anecdotal once being bandied about, like the ornate wrasse (often sold as a Christmas wrasse) and a few other wrasses, all with mixed results.

[Travis]

The problem with natural predators is that they will most likely never erradicate the pest. Therefore, if you know you are infected you will not be able to trade or sell corals (ethically).

IMO, the FW's are getting out of hand. More and more people coming out and saying they are infected all the time. And I bet there are literally thousands that do not even know they are infected. I think we need to start looking at the source. And I'm not talking about where they are collected (the AEFW's have been in the ocean all along). I'm talking the wholesalers. How often do wholesalers clean and bleach out their systems? I have no idea but I'm guessing it is pretty close to never! They get a sick acro with AEFW's and they don't sell it because it is dying. It sits in the system and as corals are moved in and out of those systems daily, the AEFW's are spreading at will. Eventually, the AEFW populations in the wholesaler's tanks become denser and denser as they sit on sicker acros that are infected. All the while, the AEFW's keep spreading to more and more corals going through the system. I know we as hobbyists are doing our part but what about the wholesalers?

[wentreefgirl]

Did anyone check out this article. Burrowing ones on carlc's acgro. Is this what you have with the smaller species. Have you tried to rinse them off? Travis is right but how do we get to them?
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic38020-9-1.aspx

[CarlC]

We will probably have little say in what the wholesalers do. It will be up to us to make the extra effort.

Our only real defense as I can see is longterm quarantine. This was my mistake! I hastily added some new frags after a swap a couple of month's ago. I bought a single frag from someone I didn't know.

The quarantine would probably be less time with frags as eggs would be easier to find on a 1" or 2" piece. Colonies would be more difficult and require a longer quarantine with a much more aggressive dipping procedure to cover all the nooks and cranny's.

After the trouble I have the decision has been made that anything new going in the tank will spend a minimum of 2 month's in quarantine no exceptions.

Carl

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7683343#post7683343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CarlC
We will probably have little say in what the wholesalers do. It will be up to us to make the extra effort.


I think we have more power than one might think. Not too long ago there was a big problem with a lot of clams coming in with pinched mantle disease. Barry at ClamsDirect narrowed down the issue to a small number of holding facilities and spoke with them about it and, IIRC, stopped ordering from them until they took proactive measures to do something about it.

If we could just get 1 or 2 wholesalers to do something then most people would start ordering their acros throught them because they will be more likely to be healthier and less likely to have AEFW's. This would cause the other wholesalers to lose business and hopefully follow suit. I don't know, maybe this is just wishfull thinking. It is strange that these AEFW's have become such a problem in the US the last 1.5 years. It has been a problem over in Europe for much longer than that. I don't think it has anything to do with areas of collection as I tend to think this predator is confined to one particular reef in the ocean. It probably has a lot to do with people having them in their tanks and then selling/trading frags from their tanks. This has been addressed as we hobbyists are doing something about it. I also think it has something to do with the wholesaler facilities being allowed to become breeding grounds for these pests. Unfortunately, they are probably not doing anything about it. I'm not asking that they treat all of their corals as that takes time and time is money. I'm just thinking maybe it would help if they cleaned out their systems every once in a while. I don't know, maybe I'm way off here or maybe just wishful thinking. Of course, in the end, it is the hobbyists responsibility to QT everything that goes into their tanks.

[SaraB]

I agree that something needs to be done to make the wholesalers more responsible and aware of the problem this is causing in the hobby.

I have just started my 2nd Levamisole treatment today in QT. I have lost one frag so far from the treatments in QT and when I pulled all of the Acro's out of the main tank last week, I found about 3 more acro's that showed damage from the AEFW's on sides that were not visible while viewing the tank. I will NEVER add another SPS coral without going into QT as the last bug I need is the Monti Nudi's too!

Sara

[gflat65]

I hear ya, Sara. I took out the red bugs, then got the AEFW's. Several months after trreatment, I have no signs of AEFW's, but now have found monti nudis on one cap... All monti's are now in the QTwaiting for Levamisole treatments (one down, three to go, then it'll be a several month waiting game before the monti's move back to the display). I have only seen them on one cap, but scrubbed everything else like they were covered. All rock from the display is coming out for cooking (issues with razor caulerpa, mainly, but I'm sure a good cooking will help, regardless-besides I have 200# of rock in rubbermaid tubs behind the couch in the living room that needs a new home;)). Didn't lose a single monti in the first treatment (lost alot of acros throughout the course, so I'm trying to figure out why...). The only pest I've avoided are zoa pests (knock on wood). Nothing goes anywhere near the display without 4-6 weeks in QT ever again...

It would be nice to get some sort of preventive measure done at the wholesalers, but I think thy are going to look at cost and added labor and not want to do anything. If we could get a few wholesalers to start the requests, there may be a chance, but until there is money pressure (as Travis states in justification), they will likely not see the need. I think we all agree it is our responsibility to catch these things before we enter them into our systems, but it would be nice if the levels were at least maintained and not allowed to continue multiplying in holding vessels. I think a very large percentage of people have some sort of pest and don't even know about it due to predators that keep it in check. Then the conditions change when someone else gets the coral and doesn't have the same predators in the tank to keep the pest populations in check. I've always compared them to STD's, and the way they are getting passed around now, you'd think we were in a time of free love again;)...

[Travis]

Just a warning for others, I have been doing some thinking and until we know more about these guys (especially their eggs) I think we should NOT be covering the eggs with superglue. I did this during my treatments and now that I think about it, what happens if down the road, that superglue gets chipped off that area (superglue comes off pretty easily)? It could be that once the eggs are again exposed to water they will hatch. I'm thinking of it in relation to brine shrimp eggs. You can go out and buy a bottle of brine eggs and just add the saltwater and they will hatch. It is possible that the AEFW eggs could do the same. So I think for now we are all better off to just let the eggs hatch out during the treatments and kill the babies with the treatments rather than risking the possiblility of the eggs hatching out later on in the display.

I know it has been posted earlier (and I even reposted it as I took it as fact) that freshly hatched FW's can lay eggs again within only a few days. This is just my belief, but I don't think this is possible. The babies are obviously going to be smaller than the eggs and will take time before they grow to a size where they are large enough to lay something the size of an egg. Not sure how long this would take but I'm guessing longer than a week, maybe even longer than a month. Either way, I think if you are treating weekly, once the eggs do hatch out, you will kill the babies before they get a chance to lay eggs again. Just my thoughts and others I have talked to about this seem to agree.

[Travis]

gflat65, so sorry to hear you now get to deal with the monti nudis. I hope your survival rate is better this time. My buddy is currently treating all his montis with levamisole. His first treatment he did 40ppm for 5 hours and it seemed to kill all the live ones. He than waited for the eggs to hatch out which took about 1.5 weeks. Then I recommended he try 60ppm (because that seemed to work for me with the AEFW's). He did it and a lot of his montis got pretty light afterwards so I think it is probably safest to stick with 40ppm on the montis. Good luck.

[gflat65]

I went a tad high this time (~50ppm) for 5 hours. I did a different procedure this time to reduce stress. I pulled water from the display (which was where the monti's were) and put it in a 15 gallon. Moved the monti's and added the Levamisole with two MJ 1200's. At the five hour mark, I moved the tank into the QT room and slowly added water from the QT to acclimate to the QT, then transferred to the QT. I'm going to continue some variation of this for the next few. I'm wondering if having the lights off while treating might have helped?

[tangdiver]

I have always treated with the lights off...the things we are treating for are better apt to come out at night...therefore better chance of them taking a drink of the mighty L.

Levamsole of coarse.

Good luck, always something to treat for.

Grant

[Neptune777]

Has anyone considered an experiment treating with Panacur (fenbendazole)? This is a broad spectrum medication which has been used to treat flukes and tape worms (types of flatworms). I believe it works by sterilizing the adults and breaking the life cycle because they can no longer reproduce (which might be a big help with these pests since nobody knows how to kill the eggs.......so lets try to stop egg production! Also, it is water soluble and considered very safe for mammals.......not sure how things would work with fish/corals/inverts....since I don't have flatworms (fortunatley!!!) I cannot do this experiment....

[tangdiver]

We have used it on fish in the public aquarium industry...mainly in gel diets...just fyi...

Grant

[tangdiver]

So works on fish...sorry should have said that...thought it but npt typed it.

Grant

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7848533#post7848533 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Has anyone considered an experiment treating with Panacur (fenbendazole)? This is a broad spectrum medication which has been used to treat flukes and tape worms (types of flatworms). I believe it works by sterilizing the adults and breaking the life cycle because they can no longer reproduce (which might be a big help with these pests since nobody knows how to kill the eggs.......so lets try to stop egg production! Also, it is water soluble and considered very safe for mammals.......not sure how things would work with fish/corals/inverts....since I don't have flatworms (fortunatley!!!) I cannot do this experiment.... \

where can one get fenbendazole? vet? southern states? were both in richmond, so if you know of a place, lmk. thanks

[tangdiver]

Farm supply place...Tractor supply, or a vet...they will for a $$...


Grant

[vitz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7683944#post7683944 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sara B
I agree that something needs to be done to make the wholesalers more responsible and aware of the problem this is causing in the hobby.

I have just started my 2nd Levamisole treatment today in QT. I have lost one frag so far from the treatments in QT and when I pulled all of the Acro's out of the main tank last week, I found about 3 more acro's that showed damage from the AEFW's on sides that were not visible while viewing the tank. I will NEVER add another SPS coral without going into QT as the last bug I need is the Monti Nudi's too!

Sara

heh i really don't get why the hobbyists are claiming or thinking that it's solely the wholesaler's responsibility to do so (i'm on both sides of thta coin, being a long time hobbyists who's worked in the ind. for some time, heh)

since when is any critter capable of guaranteed as being 'perfect' ?

i'd make the effort, as some others do, to clean up livestock as well as possile before sale-simply because it makes sense on so many levels (including repeat biz from cust's who get clean livestock) but it's still certainly not an issue that should garner any 'blame' from the end purchaser's side

nor is it at times an even remotely practical thing to accomplish-if hobbyists knew the process and timeframe of arrivals and how facilities acually are setup/run

it's like blaming the store for ich when you don't q yerself, prior to intro to the main system

kinda like blaming a ***** for her pup's fleas , lol


i've always recommended to everyone to follow proper q protocol-it's ultimately solely the hobbyist's responsibility to ensure proper husbandry for what they buy-and should be done if there's a known bug presence or not

it's not likely going to ever be possible to ensure everyone gets bug free stock anyway-y'all need to be aware of the sheer numbers and volume of pieces moving through the chain at any one time, staff available, etc etc. to really appreciate this thousands of corals might move through ONE import facility in a week ;)

[tangdiver]

Yes, but you could cleanout a holding tub or vat once in a while...makes since to me. When working in the public aquariums, we bleached holding system for possible bugs, paracites and such after each q time. Not asking for this...but something in the middle.

Man I try to sell quality corals, and when you have to treat all corals it costs $$$. But bleaching a system at a time could not cost that much $$$. There for you cut down on the spread of bugs. If you get in one unhealthy acro from the wild....it will in turn infect all acros passing through that system.

Kinda like safe sex...but just clean a system every once in a while for bugs or paracites.

Just my two cents.

Grant

[vitz]

do you have any idea how many vats/tubs are involved, and how that affects the respective businesses?

the smallest importer i worked for had mebbe 20 tubs/vats-and all were hard pressed to be able to be used ALL the time

but again-why shouldn't it be strictiy YOUR responsibility to make sure your animals are properly clean/treated ?

these are animals marketed and sold for a luxury industry-not large scale food consumption-and if hobbyists did what they should be doing anyway, it wouldn't be nearly half the issue it is today ;)

do you hold the wholesalers responsible for eliminating white band disease bacteria from their water supply as well ? ;)

it all seems like a blame shift out of a denial for personal responsibility to me-like blaming a salt for a poorly husbanded tank, after subscribing to the claims of a bogus 'study' heh

cleaning one vat out of tens (at best)will not prevent bugs from going out to market en masse w/livestock it's simply not an issue that that end of the supply chain can practically deal with, like it or not-so the bottom line remains that the hobbyist will have to bite that bullet regardless of where the responsibility could be placed ;)

[impur]

You are both stating the same things, just on opposite ends. Which is why we haven't seen any changes and don't forsee any in the future. :D

[vitz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7682442#post7682442 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis
The problem with natural predators is that they will most likely never erradicate the pest. Therefore, if you know you are infected you will not be able to trade or sell corals (ethically).

IMO, the FW's are getting out of hand. More and more people coming out and saying they are infected all the time. And I bet there are literally thousands that do not even know they are infected. I think we need to start looking at the source. And I'm not talking about where they are collected (the AEFW's have been in the ocean all along). I'm talking the wholesalers. How often do wholesalers clean and bleach out their systems? I have no idea but I'm guessing it is pretty close to never! They get a sick acro with AEFW's and they don't sell it because it is dying. It sits in the system and as corals are moved in and out of those systems daily, the AEFW's are spreading at will. Eventually, the AEFW populations in the wholesaler's tanks become denser and denser as they sit on sicker acros that are infected. All the while, the AEFW's keep spreading to more and more corals going through the system. I know we as hobbyists are doing our part but what about the wholesalers?

so how much extra are you willing to pay per coral to cover the added expense (which MUST be turned to a profit by the wholesaler to be able to continue the practice long term) ?

[tangdiver]

Not saying responsibility...just helps keep the items (bugs) at bay...IMO things are going to change really quickly...

I am a very small LFS and treat all corals coming into my place. Either gets a coral dip then into the system, or goes into q tanks. The zoos get 4 weeks of freshwater dip treatments. The acros and monti get weeks of levamsole treatments every 2 weeks, and the list goes on.

Just would be nice if some wholesalers could help out LFS and in turn we could help out the buyers...

not blaming anybody...just would nice to see people helping others out...but $$$$ is what makes this hobby run.

I see more small LFS like myself start to propagate more and less imports and someday say good buy to wholesalers in general when it comes to imports. If it happens nobody to blame but themselves.

A little help up the road would be nice...but not my fault...not my problem, will most likely be the case.

Thanks for the input,

Grant

[tangdiver]

I charge more and people love that I am trying to make a difference and keep the hobby going.

What are the wholesalers doing?

I have gotten burned so many times by them and have found a couple good ones. I am a different LFS...not bragging but not many out there like me.

Grant

[tangdiver]

Vitz u a wholesaler or what? Keep the thread on task...

[Travis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7851399#post7851399 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vitz
heh i really don't get why the hobbyists are claiming or thinking that it's solely the wholesaler's responsibility to do so (i'm on both sides of thta coin, being a long time hobbyists who's worked in the ind. for some time, heh)


I don't remember anything at all being mentioned about shifting the "entire" responsibilty to the wholesalers in this thread. Could you please find where that was quoted? You are quoting Sara for saying that but I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone stated that.

What was discussed was that it would be nice if wholesalers could occasionally clean out a system or 2. Not all at once, it could be rotated so that different systems are cleaned out at different times. This would help prevent the build-up of diseases in those systems. The reasoning behind this was discussed earlier in this thread so no need for me to repeat myself.

I am lucky, I have a LFS in my area that does treat all of his stock. He treats all of his zoos for nudis, all of his acros from red bugs and flatworms, all of his montis for nudis, etc., etc.... And yes, I am willing to pay him a little more because he does that. I think in the future, more retailers will start catching on and doing similar things. Although, I will always agree that in the end it is the hobbyists responsibility to quarantine/treat all livestock before putting it in their display.

It sounds to me like you are a wholesaler (my apologies if my assumptions are wrong) and trying to defend yourself and make excuses as to why you shouldn't have to do anything about the problems or diseases in this hobby. Wholesalers want to maximize profits, but maybe they can start caring more about how they are affecting their clients and the hobby in general. The fact is, the wholesalers are contributing to the proliferation of pests and diseases in this hobby due to negligence. If they want to deny responsibilty for that, then that is their perogative.

[SaraB]

Travis - Thanks for setting the record straight on what had been stated prior in the thread ... we ALL need to take some of the responsibility for stopping the spread of these pests ...

Oh, and by the way I am treating my QT'd acros for the 5th time with Levamisole tomorrow and they will be returning to the main tank. A couple more acro's are showing some stress, but no others have died from the treatments.

[just dave]

Something to keep in mind is that even if everyone in the chain did their part in keeping "pests" from slipping through, some will still get through. Certainly problems would be greatly reduced if this was done but a practical cost effective solution that can be used by all in this "chain" will probably never exist. However, if the problems start costing any one "link" too much money, something will be done at least at that level. Until then CYA.

[Neptune777]

Let's get the thread on track and come up with a treatment that will work!

[Neptune777]

OK....I did some research and Panacur will not work suspended in the water column.....but I have a better idea anyway!

These flatworms are trematodes....and there is an effective trematode treatment for fish that has been widely used already in aquaculture called Formalin...and you can read more on it here: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM061

It can be used as a bath and does not need to be eaten like Panacur. The link above also has recommended dosages listed.

[tangdiver]

If trematodes, I am not sure if memory is right, But I believe we treted them with Praziquatel.(spelling). This was when I was in the public aquarium industry. So might be for something else. Just thought I would state it here.

Grant

[Neptune777]

Funny....I read the whole thread and Formalin was mentioned ever so briefly in one post and nobody picked up on it! I think this should be tried since it seems to be effective in the right concentrations..........I might even try it on some monti nudi's that I have been fighting for a little while....

[just dave]

I would not use Formalin or any Formaldehyde based medication. Without even trying it I'm pretty sure it will kill the coral if used at any any concentration strong enough to kill the AEFWs/ nudibranchs and it may even kill the coral at lesser concentrations.
As to Praziquantel , it has been tried many times and I've yet to see someone post that it worked. I tried it some time ago and posted about it . My results were inconclusive. The AEFW did die but so did the ones being held in a separate system without treatment and as these were the only ones I had I could not try the treatment again.

[Neptune777]

I think it would be worth taking an infested coral, putting it in QT and at least giving it a try.......before dismissing it completely. How can you be so "certain" without even doing a test? None of these medications tried thus far have been approved for use on corals so we don't know what the reaction will be until we chance it............just my $.02. :)

[just dave]

I'm not certain, just pretty sure based on my experience using it on fish and my understanding of what it does. Try it.

[vitz]

formalin is pretty much instant death to inverts-NOT reef safe

[Neptune777]

Fair enough.......although I would not do an "in the display" treatment I may still take a piece of infected coral and do a dip, rinse and see what happens.......

[vitz]

lol-no, i'm not a wholesaler/importer, but i've worked on that end, and in retail for many years

[SERVO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7497551#post7497551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO


IMO, I think that Praziquantel would likely be the best to kill these damn things. The question is, what dose and what will happen to everything else? Maybe it is just a concentration issue.

According to Katzung praziquantel enhances Calcium influx and induces muscular contractions. THe drug increases the cell membrane permeability resulting in paralysis of the worm musculature. Vaculoization and disintegration of the tegment occur and parasite death follows."the drugs safety and effectiveness as a single oral dose have also made it useful in mass treatments...." In humans no major adverse effects have been described. In experimental animals, no effects are seen until doses approx 100 times the therapeutic range are reached; signs of CNS toxicity are then seen; A wide variety of mutagenicity, carcinogenicity, embryotoxicity and teratogenicity studies have been negative.

Given the therapeutic effect at 0.3 micrograms/ml I would shoot for this dose and see what happens. If everything looks good, but the FW's are still there I personally would double it redosing no sooner than four hours and then go from there. Again, I don't know of anyone else trying to use this and I am unaware of what does that they tried. It looks good with humans. You could do 50X the recommended therapeutic dose for human infections. Shoot for 15 micrograms/ml first.

What do you think?

I think that the best way to determine if we have an effective treatment is to determine the MIC. In antibiotics, the Minimal Inhibitory Concentration (MIC) is defined as the lowest concentration of drug that inhibits more than 99% of the bacterial population. In this case, the worms. We need to have a scientific approach without antecdote. You also need to establish the kill dose, where you induce death of the coral. By setting up various concentrations in test tubes, you can determine this.

I know that Dolt, has the capacity to be able to set this in motion. Unfortunatley, time hasn't been on his side and the 12-14 hour days have prevented him from posting or setting up any kind of treatment protocol. The first medication that I would look into is Praziquantel. Given it's safety in humans, at a high enough dose, it may be an in tank treatment.

Travis; I Highly agree with you. We as hobbiest need to take the responsibility of Q-tine all of our corals. If an outbreak occurs in Q-tine, we may be able to determine possibly where some of these infected specimens are comming from. A large component of infectious disease is epidemiology. If we can't find an immediate treatment, we need to look at this as an epidemic and find the source. Then we could address if there is a problem at a facility. To point the blame one way is wrong, it is all of our responsibilities. If the corals died and the holding facilties were taking the financial impact, you would have seen more action sooner. The LFS wants to get rid of them ASAP so they aren't left eating their profits. As hobbiests, it is one thing to lose a coral, but another to see an estabilished, mature tank crumble in front of your eyes. Losing a 5 year old acro colony that was grown from a frag is equivalent to losing a dog IMO.

This is a huge problem for our hobbiy that ends up destroying some of the more sustainable and hardy corals. A tank that is destroyed after being set up for 5 years is more than tragic. What happens if CITES via political legislation prohibits the importation of marine ornamentals into the US. This is not a far fetched scenario that could easily occur in the next 5 years. The loss of an established tank because of these damn things could threaten any chance of us continuing this hobby as we know it. We need to find ways to contain and control if not irradicate these pests. :mad2:

[Travis]

I don't remember if it was mentioned in this thread but Eric Borneman is doing some experiments on the AEFW's. Haven't heard an update on his progress in a little while but I'm sure he has been busy working on it. If anyone has any FW's he would like if you could send some to him.

[SERVO]

Matt (Dolt) was supposed to send Eric some of his worms. He wanted to be able to determine if there truly is a different organism/species.

I'll press hard on Matt here; he has yet to follow thru with his confimation to mail the damn things out.

;)

[ddr]

A couple of Macros

This is how hard they are to see on the coral, it was a little easier with the naked eye, but still not easy by any means.
http://users.bigpond.com/aquaticlighting/fw/fwoncoral.JPG

Here is a close up of the eggs.
http://users.bigpond.com/aquaticlighting/fw/fwggsoncoral.JPG

& a FW top down
http://users.bigpond.com/aquaticlighting/fw/fwtop.JPG

& a pic of the bottom of the FW with its mouth etc.
http://users.bigpond.com/aquaticlighting/fw/fwbottom.JPG

[hollback]

Would it be possible to irradicate these AEFW without a dip?

Since they seem to come off with some turkey basting would it be possible to just QT all acros, then every three or four days just shake them really hard in a 5 gal bucket? Wouldn't this just continue to knock off the FW that have hatched? As long as the shaking is occuring every few days wouldn't that keep the FW from maturing and laying more eggs?

Just a thought.

[Sparkss]

Short answer is "No"

It has been reported in several threads that the "blasting" of the corals is less than 100% effective at dislodging AEFWs, not to mention what about any AEFWs that are in your QT setup but not on any acros ? (again, this has been reported in multiple AEFW threads).

[SERVO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7540016#post7540016 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dolt
here is a photo but it does not really do it justice but you might get the idea
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/mucampbell/larvaemass.jpg

I don't know about you guys, but this scares the S*&^ out of me. Any large holding system can possibly have the flagallated mobile larvae migrate from tank to tank to infect virtually every coral in a system; directly eating acros and laying egges on anything.

[raddogz]

Yep, tis true this seems to be a big problem until we find some kind of miracle solution like we did with red bugs.

I just did my weekly dips on all my sps - lots of fun (not)

[pwhitby]

I was wondering........ Typically when my orals have RTNed in the past I have noticed a bad smell. DO you get the same from a coral being eaten? Anyone notice this...or care to comment

[Sparkss]

I never really noticed any difference between corals that died (with no AEFW evidence) or died from the stress of being eaten. I think I know the smell you are referring to (but I could be mistaken).

[dolt]

I'm back from the dead! actually due to a crazy work schedule and a sense of helplesness from my plague I was not able to work much on my problem - oddly enough during the time I neglected my tank a little it seems that lately my colonies have seemed to start doing better - for awhile I thought that my problem worms had taken population crash like the other planaria do - but no such luck - when I pulled out a few colonies to examine them I unfortunately found that the little guys were still there
Just a little update on my problems - as above for whatever reason there seems to be some improvement in the way my colonies are tolerating the continued infestation - don't get me wrong, they are still not looking back to normal and some are actually doing worse and nearing death - I'm not sure why there is such variation - I had a chance to talk to a few people at MACNA about this and see fernando nastropour 's (sp?) lecture - he had some good basic information but no treatment info - at this point my plan is to get a dissecting microscope and work further on testing different treatment options - in fernando nastrapour's lecture he mentioned that there is some concern that the worms may be able to tolerate living off of SPS for some time and survive on the ingested zooxanthellae - this again worries me that unless we come up with an in tank treatment, we may not be able to eradicate them - it seems that the best candidate continues to be praziquantel, but in my earlier trials with this, I had no success - levamisole is not safe to use in tank at needed doses - I was curious if anyone out there had any further experience with the smaller species of worm that I have? - I still suspect that many have it and do not know it as they are so incredibly tiny - they do seem to be structurally similar to the larger species, that F. nastropour said were of the genus Apidioplana, when examined under the microscope - I still have not noticed any of the larger ones I initially found leading me to believe that the smaller ones I have found are not likely to be juveniles of the larger ones