In-Wall and Fish Room Questions - Who has em?

[ReefWaters]

This is for all you guys with In-Wall tanks and/or Fish Rooms.

I wanted to start this thread to get some questions out of the way before I start my build thread.

I am starting an In-Wall set up with the Fish Room directly behind the tank. I want a clean "picture frame" look to the tank so I dont want doors on the front of the tank.

For those of you who dont have front access to your tank...

Do you regret not having front access now?

Would you change anything in regards to access to the reef structure?

Is it difficult to place corals and maintain the reef structure without being able to see your hands, etc?

Light Set Up

Is there anyone out there who has a deep tank (lets say 30+ inches from front to back) who's lights are fixed? In other words, you dont have a big movable or sliding light rack.


Thanks for any advice you can give. I am almost ready to run the electrical, cut the hole in the wall, and sheet rock. Im hoping that's when the fun starts.... :rolleyes:

[Dante_Slithers]

You are going to want front access to the tank. Find a way to hide the access holes. You could use art, paintings, mirrors, panels, etc. Trust me you will hate it if you don't have the access.

Reef structure wasn't a big deal to me, but you can't see what you are doing if you do it from behind the tank. Assuming that the back of the tank is colored. The biggest drawback for me is not being able to see when I scrape coraline algea.

Very difficult to place corals. I usually have to turn off all of my pumps, so I can see. I still break coral everytime I put my hands in the tank. The depth perception is a little off.

Right now my lights are fixed, but I am going to correct that. They will be on a rail.

You are doing the right thing by planning out the setup now. We were kind of rushed into finishing ours. There is much I would have done differently.

Jay

[bmrigs]

Hey Reefwaters,

Check out my photo gallery for pics of my in wall 180 with access only in the back. HTH

[DARKPHREAK]

I only have back access to my 210 and I don't regret it. I could have built a permanent step around the back of the tank but a 6' ladder works well enough. When it comes time to place or move corals around, my wife and I make it a team effort. Your going to need to find a way to move the lights either way.

[pyro383]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=850198

[Mobile Lightning]

I do not have fron access and do not regret it. As mentioned above, it is sometimes hard to position the corals due to the moving water (that is a bit agrivating). If there ever comes a time that you have to use a fish trap (type with string), no front access will hender you. My lights are not movable but are up high enough that I easily work around them. I just like the look of a simple picutre frame in the livingroom.

Jeremy

[skippyreef]

I decided on front access because a friend did it without and had to change it :) It made maintenece a nightmare for him.

I ordered these plantation shutters from the local House Of Blinds here. There were not cheap but they look great. The louvers open up for venting if needed and they also swing open ofr full access.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/skippyreef/Maderiabeach2005274.jpg

I used aluminum edge for the light rack (1" and 1/16 thickness) and it is working out great! I have six sunlifts supporting it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/skippyreef/Maderiabeach2005314.jpg

[steveweast]

You'll only need frontal access if you did a poor job of planning in the first place. To me, there is nothing worse than frontal access. Frontal access:

1) ruins the picture on a wall look.
2) it usually allows light bleed into the viewing room.
3) it allows more tank noise to enter the viewing room
4) most large, high end wall tanks are accompanied by nice highly finished viewing rooms that will now be subject to water drips. There is no way that I would risk damaging my imported wool carpet or teak hardwoods to accidental saltwater messes.

As for the usual complaints....it just means that not enough planning went into the project. The most common ones are:

1) I can see into the tank without turning everything off.....

I use an acrylic viewing plate that floats on the surface... this allows for perfect viewing....even photography....even on the choppiest of surfaces. The panels are just little 8 inch square boxes.

2) I can't clean the colored rear panel......

I have a clear rear panel that has a thin colored panel that presses up against it. This allows me to just slide out the colored panel for easy cleaning or viewing from the rear....and, I can change the background color if I ever choose to.

3) the lights are in the way......

The lights must be designed to easily be removed from the tank top. Lights are the number one item that can limit access if not properly thought through.

4) I can't see how I'm placing corals.......

This is a somewhat legitimate complaint; but, with the acrylic viewing boxes, you'll get used to it and find it to really to be no problem.

5) I can't clean the front panel.....

I use a magnet for everyday cleaning. I also can clean any coralline from the rear by using my little viewing boxes again. From the rear... looking into the tank, the front panel will be like a mirror and very easy to see what I'm cleaning. I also use a nylon scrapper that my tank manufacture gave me. It is slightly softer than the acrylic....so it can't scratch the acrylic. The key, though, is don't let corraline build up in the first place. It's easier to run the magnets once everyday as you pass by than scrape for hours because you let the coralline build up.

If properly designed, the rear access only aquarium will have better and more efficient access than the frontal access. If you design a "frontal access" tank for a "rear access" tank....you're just asking for disappointment. Big tanks are not merely bigger small tanks.....the design should be completely different. It seems that lately there have been several big tanks that were designed like a small tank on steroids.

I spent alot of time thinking about maintenance and access before I set up my big tank. I tried to think of all the nuisance problems that I had with smaller tanks and how to solve those problems. Everything was designed around easy access and easy maintenance.......without it.....big tanks become a big pain.

[steveweast]

Skippyreef.....while I think that your back room could have been made more user friendly, your aquascaping is EXCELENT.....I've seen few, if any, better. Please don't fill the tank too much with corals and hide that unique rockwork.

[jacob30]

For me I decided on no front access as well for a lot of the reasons that steve and others stated plus I did not want to be tempted while sitting in my viewing room to reach in and fix or adjust something. I just want to sit and enjoy. When it comes to maintenance I do all of it behind the scenes: Things that helped are:

Work platform around entire tank in background (thanks steve)
Light rack that slides out of the way (thanks steve)
Did not paint sides (allows viewing for maintenance and you cannot see thru from the front as it acts like a mirror) (something I did not know until tank was in)
not too deep (24-28 in. max)
Aquascaping nothing comes within 6 inches of any side.(front middle difficult to reach but I like a nice sandy front anyways)

Good luck!

[Natterjak]

I'm going to be doing my in-wall too, and have been grappling with the same issue. I really want a clean, picture-frame look, so I am strongly leaning towards having no front access. I was planning on some of the things mentioned - using acrylic boxes for easier viewing from the top, having a movable light rack, etc. The fish room is a pretty good sized room as well. The only thing I have is a colored back panel, because this tank wasn't originally going to be in-wall. I think my husband and I are just going to have to get better at working as a team. ;)

[sullyfish]

I am in the process of building my 180 in wall and so I have been following this and other threads with interest.
I am going to frame the tank with Oak trim and have the top on a hinge that will open for access. The top will be a 1+10 with cornice molding, so when open I will have roughly 10" of work space.When closed it will seal the space off tight so no light from the fish room will shine through.

[Chihuahua6]

I decided to have front access but the access panel will be topped with crown molding and look like part of the frame around the tank. It will swing up on a hinge. I think this is what sullyfish is describing. It won't be a true picture frame but it will look nice just the same imo. I will be sure it's made to fit tightly enough to not allow any light spillage (which totally bugs me).
I'm not worried about ruining my wood floors. I am in the habit of placing towels on the floor before going into my tanks anyway.

Steve Weast thanks for teaching me something I hadn't thought of before. The walls are insulated and the door to the room is solid but I did not consider the sound that would come from the front access panel. I still want the frontal access that I planned on but now I will have the tilt up front piece insulated for sound.

[gliebig]

I'm also planning a 240gal in-wall. I would rather not do the front access panels, but in my case, I don't think I have a choice. My tank is going to be 60x36x25 and due to the arrangement of my basement, I won't be able to access the tank from the sides. 36" deep is going to be too much of a reach for me to easily reach all areas of the tank. If I could access from the sides of the tank, I don't think I would be doing front panels.

[pennyguy23]

Well for what steveweast said I have front panels and don't have ONE of the frontal access problems he states. I had my trim guy make it look like a fireplace and I have 4 access that doesn't allow anylight to come through. I still have the picture look. No noise because everything with noise is in the basement.
Don't get me wrong if I could get on top of my tank and lay down and mess with it I wouldn't have them either but I can't do that like steveweast. Your tank is beautiful by the way. But If I didn't have them it would be a pain.

As for the lighting I have sfiligoi lighting that lights my 36wide tank just fine. I think they are like 28in wide or thing like that.

For the blue background I just painted my fish room blue.
Here are a few pictures.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/pennyguy23/tank2-1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/pennyguy23/tank1-1.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/pennyguy23/backtank1.jpg

[thor32766]

hey gorgeous tank steve

[jnarowe]

Yup. Very nice install Steve. I think ReefWaters is aware of my tank but I have much the same philosphy as Steve Weast, primarily because I studied his set up extensively before building my own.

I have zero front access and zero sound and light transmission. My lamps are on individual electric movers so I can position them anywhere over the tank or even completely off the tank. I didn't want to have the giant light rack because I often only need access to one part of the tank at a time. If you do go with a light rack, remember that when you move it out of the way, you will still need some light to see what you are doing.

Cleaning the front panel is indeed a sticking point. I run a magnet every couple of days and it takes a long while for any coraline to build up. When it does, I use a modified credit card attachment for my magnet cleaner but with a plastic putty knife instead of the credit card. Works great and I can see exactly what I am doing. Trying to clean the front panel by laying on top of the tank has proven very difficult to me because of the depth. That means I need to use a very long scraper and it is tough. That's why I built the scraper attachment for my magnet cleaner. And, I have a magnet cleaner for the front panel as well as the back side.

I am in total agreement with Steve Weast about not wanting to spill in my viewing room. In the very rare case in which I need some eyes up front, I have my son watch with a walkie-talkie and that helps a lot.

I have not finished my viewing side, but the wood is on the way. I will be framing the tank with sapelle and it will include a slab bar. I will probably use woven grass set in resin for the walls.

[46bfinGA]

what about ventilation and humidity problems?im about to setup a large system in my new house(1000 total) and im worried about mildew and stuff in the basement from all the saltwater.have you been getting by with just painting the walls or have you used the white plastic laminate on the walls or something.im hoping to eliminate as many problems as i can before they happen.

[jnarowe]

For me the plastic sheets were too expensive. And they would not really seal the room well. I used yacht bilge paint and base cove sealed with silicone. My tank room will practically hold water. I also foamed around all built in outlets. At times there is high humidity in my tank room, but it really doesn't matter. It just evaporates over time and it is completely sealed off from the house when the door is shut. I used an exterior steel door that came with good weather stripping. I have noticed a little bit of salt residue in some spots on the walls that are near the refugium.

[46bfinGA]

anything special for the ceiling?can you get that paint at home depot or at a marine store?

[steveweast]

Pennyguy23.....that's a great set up you got there. It seems to fit well within its surroundings....however....to me....it's not completely built in. It still looks like a tank (and a very nice one at that) surrounded by cabinetry. The problem with threads like this....is that everyone has a different definition of "built in". My definition revolves around the "picture frame" look that appeals to me so much....which is exactly that.....a small frame of a few inches wide surrounding the living picture that is the reef tank.....no side views....no protusions from the wall....just a picture on the wall. A true picture frame look should look no different than any other painting....a painting that gives the impression that it could be just lifted off the wall as with any other painting in the room. There is nothing wrong with frontal access....but to me....it ruins the picture frame look....which....by defintion....is just a small frame surrounding the living picture. It all comes down to personal taste and what's important to each individual.

[jnarowe]

I used the same bilge paint on the ceiling and that is a paint you need to get from a marine store. I am sure there are other paints you could use as well, but nothing from a big box store will cut the mustard under these environmental conditions. You can PM me if you have further questions about the paint.

I was going to do a picture frame too but I decided to install mine behind the wall and hide 6" on either side as well as a couple of inches top and bottom. I also installed a second wall all the way around in the tank room with the studs offset from the original wall. That way the interior sheet rock is not physically connected to the viewing room side sheet rock. With that arrangement I get zero noise and a window framed tank. There is an illusion that you are looking through a wall at the ocean.

[ReefWaters]

Well, this is some great information everyone has provided. And some beautiful systems as well.

I think everyone has very valid points, whether you're a true picture frame, or more of a cabinet style built in. I like both. I think it just depends on your specific situation and what you "can" get away with more so than what you "want" from the system. I do like the extra viewing panel that you get from the way pennyguy23 set up his tank.

I have made some, pretty much final, decisions on what will become of my new system.

The tank will be 60" wide, 20" tall, and somewhere between 36" and 48" deep (front to back). I want to go with the 48" depth but am just a little wary b/c of the extra lighting it will require. I will probably go with the 4 foot depth anyway.

I will be going with the true picture frame look like Steve Weast's tank. The front panel will also be flush with the plane of the display side wall so that there is no recess like jnarowe's. I will use wide enough wood for the frame to cover the edges of the tank by a few inches though.

The tank room is technically what some would call a "sun room." There are 3 large windows. They are brand new, double pane, and have the Low-E glass, or gas, or whatever makes it Low-E. It is 10' x 9'. I am cooling, heating, and dehumidifying the room with a 12,000 BTU mini split A/C unit. I'm hoping this will be enough to avoid a chiller. This will also keep the tank environment completely separate from the house. The floor will be tile with a drain. There will be a utility sink. 2 designated circuits for the tank and a third for the A/C. The walls and ceiling will be painted with Bilge Coat as jnarowe's room is.

I'm not sure what I'm going to use for blinds or curtains yet. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated but I want something simple, easy to maintain, and durable in the damp environment.

The tank will only be 20 inches tall and will be at a height were I can get to the "arms length" spots of the tank without using a stool or ladder. I'm sure I'll need something to get to the far corner. I will only have access to the tank from one side and the back. But with the shallow tank, I think I'll be okay.

The overflow will be off to one side, not the back, and will be external. The tank will not be accessible from the right side anyway, so I decided to put the overflow on that side so it wouldn't take up room on a usable pane of glass.

I plan on leaving the two back access sides of the tank as free of clutter, equipment and plumbing as possible and I hope that they can almost be used as additional viewing panes for the tank.

As for lighting, I'm all over the place here. I almost want to permanently place the lights high enough over the tank to allow full access. But I think I would have to go WAY too high. So I'm trying to come up with some kind of rack system that I like that will lift straight up. I don think I have the room to do a sliding rack even though I would like that a lot more. What do you think of a hinged system where the back side tilts up and down and the front side is hinged directly to the wall?

Well, I hope that gives everyone a better picture of what I'm trying to do. Please ask questions if I was unclear. I will be starting a build thread whenever I actually get around to the TANK stuff and will post a link here. :rolleyes: :D

Thanks again for the help guys,

RW

[steveweast]

3 suggestions...

1) use a chiller. It's more efficient and more accurate to cool a tank....rather than cool a room that then somewhat cools the tank. Chillers are a cheap investment compared to the entire large system.

2) go bigger on your height. The proper visual aspect ratio is 2 to 1.....so at 60" length......25" - 30" of height will look right. If shorter....the overal effect is odd looking ....the tank will be too wide for it's height......and even more so when your frame crops the tank (the frame will crop several inches off the top to hide water line). I can easily reach by hand every inch of my 30" tank. You just have to plan sufficently enough to get things out of your way.... like lights.

3) who says you have to light the whole tank....light it heavy up front and shadowed to the rear.

[jnarowe]

Take a look at the lights I have in my pics garage (red house). I am not sure what a 20" tall by 4' deep tank would look like in-wall, but there is an LFS here that has a square frag tank with those dimensions and it is sweet. Really sweet!

His lamps are 1000W and mounted up high, but I seriously do not recommend that for home use. You will burn yourself! I would recommend getting movers like I have to give you the coverage and keep the electric bill in check.

You can buy reflectors online at places like propertyroom.com for much less than retail. Movers are sometimes available used but since they have moving parts, new or reconditioned might be a better idea. You can find them here (http://www.lightrail3.com/lightrail.php).

I spent a lot of time researching sound abatement so yuo can PM me if you want to learn more about that. I am a little concerned about you usig a sun-room format for the tank in that it will allow heat to enter, but I guess you have taken that into consideration with your cooling set up. Ground loops work great too!

[jnarowe]

hehe

He's right about not lighting the whole tank...leaving the back a little dark helps with realism too. :D