Is this too good to be true...this unit reduces the light bill by 40%, Out in July

[John Hartford]

I saw this and called the company and was pretty impressed from what I heard. This unit will supposedly save you up to 40% on your light bill, plus these lights don't have to be replaced until after 50,000-100,000 hours, but whats neat I guess that this unit can also change the kelvin with an additional module that they sell. It can go from 6.5K to 20K. Here is the link about the product:
http://www.pfolighting.com/Aquarium-LED-Lighting.aspx

[John Hartford]

I forgot to mention that the Lady from the company also said that the amount of heat that is generated from these lights is minimal so goodbye to the fans ??? This really sounds to good to be true...but I wonder what the cost will be?

[masterswimmer]

LED lighting has been discussed for quite some time now. I'd be curious to hear the results of the independent tests.

The concept is great.
They seem to really stress HARD the fact that the LED's can burn out prematurely if there isn't sufficient circulation. If they burn out, who determines what the definition of adequate circulation is?

swimmer

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7547307#post7547307 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by masterswimmer
LED lighting has been discussed for quite some time now. I'd be curious to hear the results of the independent tests.

The concept is great.
They seem to really stress HARD the fact that the LED's can burn out prematurely if there isn't sufficient circulation. If they burn out, who determines what the definition of adequate circulation is?

swimmer
I hope you are allowed to replace single LEDs if one were to go out or else thats a waste of money.

Another thing that was being dicussed about LEDs, is if you get the ripple lines like you do from halides... i would think so, cause my blue night LED gives good ripple lines.

[masterswimmer]

Good question about replacing individual bulbs. Lots of LED's are pin mounted and soldered to a printed circuit board. If that's the case here, replacing them would be very difficult.

swimmer

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7547718#post7547718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by masterswimmer
Good question about replacing individual bulbs. Lots of LED's are pin mounted and soldered to a printed circuit board. If that's the case here, replacing them would be very difficult.

swimmer

Yeah, They would need to figure something out...Cause if that is the case I do not see much point in buying that thing also considering the price tag that comes with it.:rolleyes:

[blufish]

And the price is...?

[marinelife]

I am interested in this, I can not wait to see a price on these

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7548082#post7548082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marinelife
I am interested in this, I can not wait to see a price on these

Theyre upwards of twice what halides will cost you.

As to the rest, LEDs are rated for the time it takes half of them to fail. So at 1/2 that time, 1/4 of them have failed, and who knows what the color shift is....


They had them at Imac, and while they were neat, I dont think theyre ready.


Also, it takes about $7 a month to run a 250w halide, so $14 a month for the lights on a 120. Cutting $6 off my electricity bill isnt all that impressive, and certainly isnt worth $1000.

[SunnyX]

Like all new technologies this one will take some time to enter into the mainstream. As the manufacturing process becomes simplified and the price comes down more and more people will be heading toward this product.

I have been reading alot lately about the future of LED and it is quite exciting. Within 5 years many homes will be using LED instead of incandescent bulbs.

I am happy that a manufacture has stepped up to the plate and introduced a new lighting technology. Personally I wouldn't purchase one for about 2 years, by then prices should have come down more and the product should be improved.

[TitansFan]

a great idea.. interested in the par they would actually produce. Also the idea of dimmable LED lighting is enticing. If they make it dimable you could very acuratley create sunrise and set.

[zanemoseley]

But think of the $$$ you'd save on MH bulbs. I change XM's every 8 months so thats like $150 a year in just bulbs. Then say you save another $50 a year in electricity at the least. It'd pay for itself in 5 years. If the LED's did last 50,000 hrs then thats like 17 years. I don't think its that bad of a deal. Plus less heat would mean you won't have to worry about many fans and chillers. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about heat nuking your tank if the fans or chiller went out.

[marinelife]

zanemoseley - I agree, a little higher upfront cost on somethat that would save you money over time is great to me

[masterswimmer]

Like I said, it's a great idea in the making. The first go round will most likely be like any new product (ie: Vortech) and have its issues. Give it a few years to work out the kinks and I think it will be cutting edge.

I don't think it will cut down on fan usage though. They were extremely explict about keeping the unit cool. As a matter of fact, I think fan usage could increase. Instead of only running fans in the summer months for evaporative cooling, we'd have to run them 12 months a year, whenever the LED's are lit.

swimmer

[Anemonebuff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7549176#post7549176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by masterswimmer
Like I said, it's a great idea in the making. The first go round will most likely be like any new product (ie: Vortech) and have its issues. Give it a few years to work out the kinks and I think it will be cutting edge.

I don't think it will cut down on fan usage though. They were extremely explict about keeping the unit cool. As a matter of fact, I think fan usage could increase. Instead of only running fans in the summer months for evaporative cooling, we'd have to run them 12 months a year, whenever the LED's are lit.

swimmer

What are the issuea with the Vortech?

[Anemonebuff]

The prices were posted here from $700-$2000.

[whiteshark]

Last I saw a 48 in. unit would be about 1000-1300 bux. I forget the exact number.

[areze]

FYI, LED lighting is 100% in reach right now.

luxeon recently redid their pricing to the general public.

and released a brand new LED.

100,000hours 100lumens, for 3.85$

it was said that for MH lights, its 100lumens/watt.

however I question if thats correct.

anyway; before this price change, that kind of LED was 30$. so thats a rough idea of the price change we're talking about. its significant.

I paid 500$ to light my 75g tank with 2 MH pendants. without question 160 of those LEDs would blind the neighboors.

the problem is and always will be, how to generate that much DC current in the home. 1amp at 3.5v per LED; we're not joking around.

[John Hartford]

As mentioned before there are some authors of reef keeping magazines, and book and other expert hobbbyist that this company has let them do a trial run to test out the lights and to see what they are like, it will be interesting to see what they have to say...maybe some of them belong to reefcentral...any out there?? Come on step foward, lets hear what there like.

[areze]

I dont see how their changing the temperature of the LEDs.

to my knowledge the LED color is determined by the yellow gooey whatever it is that they put over the emmitor. since LED's cant produce white, they produce yellow and blue or something; and it comes down to how much of each it has. thats a manufacturing parameter though... not something you can alter on the fly. quite wild if they are somehow doing it.

[masterswimmer]

areze, I don't know about these particular lights. However, if there is a controller that allows the user to change spectrum, MAYBE they are turning some bulbs off (20K's for instance) and turning other bulbs on (6.5K's for instance) thereby adjusting the spectrum.

They can fit an awful lot of LED's in that space. Like you said, 160 LED's would blind the neighbors. But if they include 160 LED's that don't all turn on all the time, but only when a certain spectrum is called for, then MAYBE that's how they're making it 'spectrum adjustable'.

JM $.02,
swimmer

[Kshack]

They do it by having different color LED's per foot. You change the color by either turning down the blue, or turning down the white. By the end of summer they will also have a 400 W/foot available (first product will be 250 W/foot). With the controller it will be possible to vary the amount of LED's lit, therefore simulating sunrise, sunset, and clouds. Hope the trials come back positive!

[masterswimmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7549846#post7549846 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kshack
They do it by having different color LED's per foot. You change the color by either turning down the blue, or turning down the white. By the end of summer they will also have a 400 W/foot available (first product will be 250 W/foot). With the controller it will be possible to vary the amount of LED's lit, therefore simulating sunrise, sunset, and clouds. Hope the trials come back positive!

;) :thumbsup:

swimmer

[Danfish]

I'm intrested in this not only from an aquarium prespective but from a photography angle as well. The idea of having cheap, low heat, powerfull, colorshifting lights for my photography is just incredible.

Can you imagine how easy it will be to light and correct a blue/green screen with something like this?


I'm VERY intrested in the light output outside of wattage.
How many foot candles does it put out and what are the color restrictions in foot candles (at 6.5k how bright is it, at 20k how bright is it).

Exc. exc.
Glad this tech is finaly starting to show up.

[revenant]

looks very interesting.. I am gearing up for a new tank very soon here.. might have to wait and try this out, if it's really out next month, /and/ proves to be an ample light source. :)

[stewie24]

The controller runs around 130.00 the 48" light runs 1499.00, 36" runs around 1000, 24" is upwards of 800.00, 13 or 16" runs around 650. There was a post about it a while back. Thats the price I remember. It probably would save you money in the long run (compared to electricity usage and bulb replacement costs).
Stewie

[gkq325286]

I saw the PFO and another type for get the manufacture at IMAC. These where amazing to say the least. Not only in how bright they where, how little heat they produced, the flexability in dimming & potential programing to reflect seasonal and lunur changes. BUT the price was simply amazing too. And at this point the non PFO company would need your entire fixture back to replace a bubl. As mentioned it requires some sodering. Sanjay was pretty interested in this stuff. I wouldn't be supprised if he already has one he is testing. And as all have mentioned give it time, the price will come down.

[diablofish]

With regard to fan usage, I don't think fans will be an issue outside of the fans that are contained in the hood for cooling the LED's. LED's don't produce as much radiant heat as halides so the water won't get as warm.

It seems to me that the fans that come with the hood ought to be sufficient to cool the LED light racks. Of course if you encase the factory hood in a custom cabinet then you'd probably have to have supplemental fans, but you've got to have those fans for the halides anyway.

I don't see how lights that operate at a lower wattage (less energy) would require more fan usage for cooling than lights that operate at a higher wattage (use more energy).

[masterswimmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7550757#post7550757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by diablofish
I don't see how lights that operate at a lower wattage (less energy) would require more fan usage for cooling than lights that operate at a higher wattage (use more energy).

More fan usage in regards to preserving the lifespan of the LED's, not for evaporative cooling of the tank.
I don't have to run fans on my fixtures in the colder/winter months. But I do in the heat of the summer.

The LED fixtures will require running the fans every time the lights come on, just to meet the projected lifespan the mfg claims.

swimmer

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7550635#post7550635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stewie24
The controller runs around 130.00 the 48" light runs 1499.00, 36" runs around 1000, 24" is upwards of 800.00, 13 or 16" runs around 650. There was a post about it a while back. Thats the price I remember. It probably would save you money in the long run (compared to electricity usage and bulb replacement costs).
Stewie

Like I said, we're talking $6 a month in electricity saved. PFO (when I talked to them at IMAC...or the people who were showing the lights) said every 2 years the LEDS would need to be replaced, and they were talking $300 per pack, and there were 4 packs on the 48" IIRC.


Theres no money savings here at this point. Give it a couple more years.

[diablofish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7551451#post7551451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by masterswimmer
More fan usage in regards to preserving the lifespan of the LED's, not for evaporative cooling of the tank.
I don't have to run fans on my fixtures in the colder/winter months. But I do in the heat of the summer.

The LED fixtures will require running the fans every time the lights come on, just to meet the projected lifespan the mfg claims.

swimmer

You wouldn't need extra fans because the LED's don't produce the heat that the halides do. Therefore, the ambient air temperature around the LED's is lower than it would be in the instance of a halide. I doubt that extra fans would be needed in most cases. Of course depending on your setup, they may very well be required. However, fans still consume much less energy to operate than the halides aquarists use on their reef tanks.

The point about additional fans is somewhat mooted for two reasons:

1 - We don't know what the manufacturer recommends for maintaining an ambient air temperature to achieve maximum life - at least I haven't seen it listed anywhere. Without knowing this, it's pure speculation as to whether fans are needed in addition to the ones provided in the light hood enclosure pictured in the link.

2 - Even if you require extra fans, they consume much less energy than halides so you'd definitely realize an energy savings from having lower power consumption on the lights. In addition, there is a potential for lower power consumption from not having to run a chiller or being able to lessen the frequency at which the chiller runs gaining you further energy savings.

Ideally you could have extra fans wired to a temperature sensor that would energize additional cooling fans only when (if) required to maintain the required ambient temperature if you really wanted to prolong the life AND maximize energy savings.

[diablofish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7551516#post7551516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Like I said, we're talking $6 a month in electricity saved. PFO (when I talked to them at IMAC...or the people who were showing the lights) said every 2 years the LEDS would need to be replaced, and they were talking $300 per pack, and there were 4 packs on the 48" IIRC.


Theres no money savings here at this point. Give it a couple more years.

I agree that the lights themselves don't provide the savings, but when considered as a part of an entire system, they may very well provide the energy savings.

Since they operate at a lower wattage, there is less heat being put into the aquarium. Therefore, a chiller can be decreased in size and/or decreased in its operating frequency gaining further energy savings that could very well offset the high cost of replacing LED packs.

[RichConley]

900 every 2 years, vs $120 (2x$60) twice in 2 years, adn you can offset that with electricity? I highly doubt it.

I think theyre neat. I want them, but i've done the math a bunch of times trying to justify them, and at this point, its not even close to possible. Give it some time.

[Biggie]

Ill be impressed when its solar powered and cools itself for the same price as MH. Til then its just another interesting inovation that hasnt been proven. Whose up for dropping the cash to report its functions. All Newbies step forward for the cause lol.

[diablofish]

$900 every two years? Don't they have a listed life of 50,000 hours?

From the linked website:

Warranty:
The system is warranted for two years to the original purchaser. However, the white LED’s are expected to last 50,000 hours and the blue LED’s are expected to last 100,000 hours.

So, 50,000 hours / 12 hours per day = 4166.67 days

4166.67 days / 365.25 days per year = 11.4 years life of the LED's

By the time you need to replace them, it's likely they won't cost $300 per pack.

Even if you only used them two years, it's likely the replacement cost in two years won't be $300 per pack.

LED's aren't a new technology - they've been in use for many years and have very long life spans.

[RichConley]

diablofish, did you read my earlier post. LEDS are rated at the mean time before half of them have failed. So at 50,000 hours, 50% of the LEDS are dead.

Replacing them every 2 years was what PFO reccomended. To even be cost effective, the LED packs are going to have to come down to about $100 or less.


As to effectiveness of these things, they had them next to an XM 15K 175w bulb (I think) at IMAC. They were brighter, yes, but they had all the blue and all the white turned up. So at normal use theyre not as bright, and theyre being compared to a piece of junk. The 14K Phoenix's that were at the booth across the hall were much brighter.


As to LEDs having long lifespans, so do bulbs. Fluoro bulbs will run for 30K hours plus, yet we replace them every 6 months. Reef usage and life are totally different things.

[imbuggin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7552039#post7552039 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
900 every 2 years, vs $120 (2x$60) twice in 2 years, adn you can offset that with electricity? I highly doubt it.

I think theyre neat. I want them, but i've done the math a bunch of times trying to justify them, and at this point, its not even close to possible. Give it some time.

rich, where are you that your electric is so cheap? You need to take into account less heat/ less chilling/ less fans/ less electric all around. My 300 gallon tank is about $200-$250+ a month. I would love to cut that down if I could. to change my lights 4x 400 watt halides and 2 x vho is about $500 every 6-8 months.

I did see the pfo set-up at imac. ALL the led set-ups were PFO's they had them at a few different booths, but they were all PFO's. I was standing next to Sanjai when he asked them to put the par meter next to a coral with the 250 watt 20k halide and than with the leds. The led's had a higher par value at 24 inches. I don't know how they would do for a large tank. The question is how well they will grow corals. With all the spectrums they have included in the wavelength I see no reason why they wouldn't. PFO and many beta testers are testing that now. I guess they will be good for shallow tanks. I wish you could tune in the color temp of halides they way you can with these led's. That is worth a ton of cash alone! PFO has info on their site.

also they told me different about changing the leds every 2 years

[diablofish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7552143#post7552143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
diablofish, did you read my earlier post. LEDS are rated at the mean time before half of them have failed. So at 50,000 hours, 50% of the LEDS are dead.

Replacing them every 2 years was what PFO reccomended. To even be cost effective, the LED packs are going to have to come down to about $100 or less.


As to effectiveness of these things, they had them next to an XM 15K 175w bulb (I think) at IMAC. They were brighter, yes, but they had all the blue and all the white turned up. So at normal use theyre not as bright, and theyre being compared to a piece of junk. The 14K Phoenix's that were at the booth across the hall were much brighter.


As to LEDs having long lifespans, so do bulbs. Fluoro bulbs will run for 30K hours plus, yet we replace them every 6 months. Reef usage and life are totally different things.

I agree that reef usage and life are completely different. What standard are you referencing for rating LED's?

From personal and professional experience, LED's last longer than any flourescent bulb which is one of the big upsides to using them.

My concern with LED's is not with energy consumption, there certainly is a savings to be realized by using them, it's how well they will light a reef tank versus halides. Nothing that is readily available in the hobby at this juncture can come close to providing the amount of light at depth that halides provide.

I'm just trying to illustrate the point that energy savings can be realized with LED's. What's in question is whether coral growth can be realized.

[diablofish]

If anyone is interested, the following provides some information about projecting useful life of LED's:

LED Useful Life Projections (http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/solidstate/pdf/ProjectingUsefulLife.pdf)

[kevin gu3]

Those are some mighty large looking LEDs! Sooner or later I expect they will replace incandescent and flourescent, but for now thats big bucks.

How does the color controller work, does it just change the number of cycles running the blue vs white?

Aren't red LEDs monochromatic, like a laser? Whats the output spectrum look like with white and blue? Is there any UV?

Whats the failure mode with LED's - do they dim over time, or do they just stop outputting all at once? Any spectrum shift over time?

[RichConley]

LEDS dim over time.

As to the Imac display, I would have been impressed had they had a 10K bulb there. They had a VERY low par bulb to compare it to. Its like saying "look how fast my car is...it can smoke that pinto wagon."


As to electricity, $.15/kwh. 2x250w halides, 6 hours a day. Thats $.45 a day, or $13.50 a month.


As to heat, halides aren't usually the cause of heat, or electricity problems. Imbuggin, I'd bet your pumps are more of a problem than your halides. 3x400 shoudl cost you $35 a month at most to run. A single 300w pump will cost that much. (look at your skimmer)


Kevin, LEDs are monochromatic, which is something I hadnt though of...they looked to be just white LEDs and Blue Leds..I'm curious if that will cause red/green corals to look funny, as theres very little light in that spectrum.


Like I said, I think these things are goign to be big in the future, I dont think theyre nearly ready though.

[diablofish]

I'm guessing imbuggin has more than two halides on his aquarium. I'm also guessing he runs a chiller to control the temperature. I think it's also likely that most aquarists run their halides for more than 6 hours per day (mine are on for 9 and several hobbyists that I know locally run them even longer). You also have to consider the load from any PC's or VHO's which is going to contribute to the cost of lighting as well as the cost of cooling with a chiller, although to a lesser degree than halides.

Your calculation doesn't include any loading to a chiller to remove the heat that is put into the aquarium from the lighting which many large (even some small) systems use.

Since halides generate a LOT of radiant heat, they account for a significant amount of cooling load to a chiller. Many larger pumps productegood amounts of radiant heat as well but generally have the heat-generating aspects of their design outside the flow of water. Some pumps are designed to use the water flowing through them as a coolant so the heat load to the system would be higher in this case.

Pumps and powerheads submersed in the sump or tank are going to heat the tank directly as they use the ambient water to cool the mechanical parts. For example, a 25 watt powerheard is going to provide 25 watts of heat to the tank. However, an inline pump mounted away from the tank that operates at 300 watts is probably not going to provide 300 watts of heat directly to the tank.

[masterswimmer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7551926#post7551926 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by diablofish
You wouldn't need extra fans because the LED's don't produce the heat that the halides do. Therefore, the ambient air temperature around the LED's is lower than it would be in the instance of a halide. I doubt that extra fans would be needed in most cases. Of course depending on your setup, they may very well be required. However, fans still consume much less energy to operate than the halides aquarists use on their reef tanks.

The point about additional fans is somewhat mooted for two reasons:

1 - We don't know what the manufacturer recommends for maintaining an ambient air temperature to achieve maximum life - at least I haven't seen it listed anywhere. Without knowing this, it's pure speculation as to whether fans are needed in addition to the ones provided in the light hood enclosure pictured in the link.

2 - Even if you require extra fans, they consume much less energy than halides so you'd definitely realize an energy savings from having lower power consumption on the lights. In addition, there is a potential for lower power consumption from not having to run a chiller or being able to lessen the frequency at which the chiller runs gaining you further energy savings.

Ideally you could have extra fans wired to a temperature sensor that would energize additional cooling fans only when (if) required to maintain the required ambient temperature if you really wanted to prolong the life AND maximize energy savings.



From the PFO website, they make it extremely clear, so much so that they consider it a 'Precaution' that air circulation MUST be good around the hood. The internal fans should be adequate providing the fixture is not set inside a hood. Additional circulation still needs to be provided if installation is within a hood.
Yes, the cost of running a fan is MUCH less than a chiller. Just making mention of another consideration.

swimmer



Installation Precautions:
The LED’s will have premature failure if they get too hot for an extended period of time. Ensure that there is good air circulation around hood. It is best to mount the LED’s over the tank via the stands or PFO Pendant Hanger Kit(Not Included). Be extremely careful about air circulation mounting inside canopies. If installing in canopies be aware the cables come out the end and add length for cable bending beyond stated length.

[diablofish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7552625#post7552625 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by masterswimmer
From the PFO website, they make it extremely clear, so much so that they consider it a 'Precaution' that air circulation MUST be good around the hood. The internal fans should be adequate providing the fixture is not set inside a hood. Additional circulation still needs to be provided if installation is within a hood.
Yes, the cost of running a fan is MUCH less than a chiller. Just making mention of another consideration.

swimmer

We still don't know the recommended temperature to maintain. However, generally speaking LED's last longer at colder temperatures.

Test of LED life at different temps (http://www.ledtronics.com/datasheets/Pages/discrete_5mm_white/white_led_life.htm)

Therefore, fans would not be sufficient to lower the temperatures below that of the ambient room. According to the data presented above, going from 25 C to 35 C wouldn't make an appreciable difference in LED life. Going from 25 C to -30 C DOES make an appreciable difference in LED life.

I would think a ventilated hood that would allow the fans to move air from outside the hood would be sufficient.

[sr3w]

Hey all - I'm loving this discussion, and also can't wait to see how this product evolves. I wanted to chime in on the spectrum of the LEDs, though - while it's true they generally look pretty much monochromatic, they aren't strictly that (I know, neither are any other lights). The way the spectra go is pretty neat, however.

The bulk of the light being emitted by a LED comes out at the color you see, but there's also a good bit being emitted at longer wavelengths - red also puts out IR, yellow puts out red & IR, up to blue which includes green, yellow, red, IR. They also put out a teensy bit at shorter wavelengths, but not lots. You can confirm this by looking at them in a spectrometer, or you can get a rough idea by taking a CD, flipping it over, looking at the reflection of the light in the bottom of the CD, then looking for the rainbow that shows up on either side of the main reflection. That rainbow will give you the idea of the spectrum of the light. You can also try it out with your other lights, it's a pretty fun trick. Fun for dorks, that is.

I'm gonna go back to watching now.

Scott

[OrionN]

Here is the price of these units:
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Solaris

[masterswimmer]

Nice looking fixtures. A little on the pricey side :rolleyes: . Especially for those first few who do buy it. They'll wind up being the true beta testers.