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View Full Version : Reef Optix III Reflectors...They seem Dull??


Horace
06/21/2006, 06:42 AM
I just got a couple Reef Optix III units in and I am NOT impressed with the sheen on the reflectors at all. They seem like they are very dull and un-polished. Whats the deal here? I was told the reflectors were much better than the PFO pendants and comparing them side by side the PFO has a MUCH more polished reflector. The PFO is like looking at Mylar, while the ROIII is like looking at aluminum foil at best. So whats the deal?? Have any of you polished the reflector in the ROIII to make it more reflective?

Beenalongtime79
06/21/2006, 07:12 AM
Horace,

That is the way they are designed. Shininess in this case does not equal better reflective capacity. Haha. :)

For the best, you should have gone with the lumenarcs. They are hands down the most consistent and give the best spread at almost every point in your tank.

Peace,
John H.

Horace
06/21/2006, 08:03 AM
Rufio, Yes I realize lumanarc are the best, however they are HUGE and I wouldnt be able to fit any supplemental lighting in there with those. Plus they cost ALOT more.

I just find it really hard to believe that a more shiny reflector does not equal more reflectivity.

Beenalongtime79
06/21/2006, 08:11 AM
Hehe,

They do cost quite a bit more. Anyways, I agree that it looks like the less reflective-looking surface would suffer, but somehow it disperses light in such a way that it actually enhances reflection. It would be really nice if the geometry of the the lumenarcs could be combined with the reflective material used in the reefoptix.

Peace,
John

Horace
06/21/2006, 09:02 AM
So are you saying that if I was to polish the aluminum it would actually reduce the reflectivity?

Beenalongtime79
06/21/2006, 09:13 AM
Yep

Horace
06/21/2006, 10:00 AM
Rufio, you were absolutely right :P

Here is the reply from the guy from SLS:

Shiny = better, right?

That really isn't how it works. There are many different kinds of aluminum out there, and we chose to go with Alanod MIRO 7. Miro 7 is 95% reflective, and offers the best diffusion/uniformity on the market. Finding a reflector that claims to have over 95% reflectivity is hard.

Why is diffusion imortant? Having an even spread over your tank eliminates hot spots, which can burn delicate SPS corals, and cause damage in marine ornamentals. Have you installed the pendants yet? I bet you're very pleased with the performance if you have.

I hope you read this, and do some research of your own on this subject, I know you'll realize that you made a wise pendant choice.

Visit www.alanod.com for more info on MIRO.

-Sam

Beenalongtime79
06/21/2006, 10:04 AM
Yep, now if only we could combine the engineered geometry of the lumenarcs with Miro 7 aluminum.... Ahhhh, that would be nice. Haha

Beenalongtime79
06/21/2006, 10:07 AM
The closest thing to this perfect combination may be the lumen max reflectors from sunlight supply, but there's been no studies by Sanjay on the overall reflection properties of these new reflectors, so I'm still wary.

Peace,
John

manderx
06/21/2006, 10:16 AM
the first pics i saw of the luminmax had a few facets of the polished and a few facets of the brushed, which i thought was really cool. but a more recent pic i've seen of the luminmax has hammered in place of the brushed. i think the brushed is perfectly fine myself, but i think they are switching over just because of the knee-jerk 'it isn't as shiny so it must suck' reaction they are still getting after all these years.

Horace
06/21/2006, 10:26 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7600823#post7600823 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by manderx
the first pics i saw of the luminmax had a few facets of the polished and a few facets of the brushed, which i thought was really cool. but a more recent pic i've seen of the luminmax has hammered in place of the brushed. i think the brushed is perfectly fine myself, but i think they are switching over just because of the knee-jerk 'it isn't as shiny so it must suck' reaction they are still getting after all these years.

I must admit, with all the research on lighting that I have done, I have never really researched the reflective qualities of aluminum. I just assumed that polished aluminum was the best stuff out there. Another thing that made me think that was the case is the fact that the T5 reflectors made by SLS (TEK) are more of a brushed look, while Icecap's are polished and widely accepted to put out about 10-20% more light than the TEK. I guess I just assumed it was the same with the halide reflectors.

manderx
06/21/2006, 10:36 AM
Icecap's are polished and widely accepted to put out about 10-20% more light than the TEK
until someone who knows what they are doing does that test, i won't believe that figure for a second. you *cannot* judge a reflector off a single measurement. you have to measure the entire usable field. those numbers could very easily be from comparing a hotspot on the SLR compared to a more even light field from the SLS.

LBCBJ
06/21/2006, 11:40 AM
I'm very happy with my Reef Optix III, but the shininess of the reflector material is no indication of its reflective capabilites.

RichConley
06/21/2006, 11:47 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7600939#post7600939 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by manderx
until someone who knows what they are doing does that test, i won't believe that figure for a second. you *cannot* judge a reflector off a single measurement. you have to measure the entire usable field. those numbers could very easily be from comparing a hotspot on the SLR compared to a more even light field from the SLS.

Why do you think polishing would cause a hot spot? For a polished reflector to cause a hot spot, there would ahve to be a hot spot from the bulb, and with the case of T5s, theres nowhere on them thats even close to bright enough to burn anything. I could see where diffusing light would be a good idea on MH reflectors, but for T5s, it seems like a waste.


As to ROIII, I've got one, and these thigns are so horribly overrated, its ridiculous. Theyre not even much smaller than a Lumenarc Mini either.

xtrstangx
06/21/2006, 11:51 AM
I was wondering why my $100 RO 1's were dull..

gvibes
06/21/2006, 12:12 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7600779#post7600779 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rufio173
The closest thing to this perfect combination may be the lumen max reflectors from sunlight supply, but there's been no studies by Sanjay on the overall reflection properties of these new reflectors, so I'm still wary.

Peace,
John
Sanjay has tested at least one of the LumenMaxes - I believe it was microscopically better than the comparable lumenarc..

manderx
06/21/2006, 12:29 PM
Why do you think polishing would cause a hot spot?
um, because it doesn't diffuse the light as much and keeps it more focused as a beam and a field? we're looking for a happy medium between too focued and too dispersed.

the t5 reflectors are actually alot like a spot reflector in a flashlight, except that it only focuses along 1D rather than 2D like the flashlight reflector does.

remember that white paint is a better reflector (more total light reflected) than a typical mirror. there's more going on than just how shiny something looks. until we see real multiple measurements of the entire usable light field we can't declare a winner. remember that the PFO-mini and RO3 are basically the same thing, one polished and one brushed and it was the brushed RO3 that won by a slight margin in the tests.

Horace
06/21/2006, 12:36 PM
Manderx..your right about the white paint thing... I knew that but I never did consider that. That certainly does prove that shininess does not mean anything.....It just doesnt make logical sense, but there is alot of things in this hobby that dont necessarly seem logical :)

RichConley
06/21/2006, 12:39 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7601695#post7601695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by manderx
um, because it doesn't diffuse the light as much and keeps it more focused as a beam and a field? we're looking for a happy medium between too focued and too dispersed.
We're talking T5 here. What Beam? A GE 48" T5 bulb produces roughly 5000 lumens, spread over 48 inches. Thats 100lumens per inch. Now, a 250wMH bulb produces roughtly 20,000 lumens in a 1 inch circular package. You're going to get a TON more light right below a MH bulb than you could get on a T5, no matter what reflector you used. So why isnt everything burnging up in this "hot spot" under the MH?

Even if this hot spot mumbo jumbo was true, WHICH ITS NOT, you still couldnt get enough light out of a T5 tube at a localized point to burn anything.

Think about it from a light diffusion perspective. From a bulb, photons come out in straight lines, like the spokes of a wheel. Bouncing off a reflector just changes that direction. Whether or not it is polished. Its not going to wrangle together a whole lto of photons and combine them for one hot spot. It will focus the light, as a whole. This "hot spot' is marketing speak to justify why their way is better.

I'm not saying that the RO material is worse than the specular aluminum anyone else uses. I'm just saying this Hot Spot explanation is complete and utter crap.

RichConley
06/21/2006, 12:53 PM
For that matter, most T5 reflectors are parabolic, so in principle, the light coming off the reflector is traveling straight down. It will be uniformly distributed. Anythign that causes the light to "disperse" at the reflector will actually make it more likely for there to be hot spots.

manderx
06/21/2006, 01:04 PM
lol. nobody means 'hot spot' as in a super-intense-burn-through-the-bottom-of-the-tank-beam-of-laser-fied-light. just that the light field is not uniformly distributed, so that you get areas (bands) of the light field that are somewhat more intense than others. if you put the sensor in one of these hotspots, then it will read higher than what the light field really is if you averaged it out. this can make 1 reflector appear to be 'better' than another when it might not be the case.

just because it's not focued into a round spot doesn't mean it's not a beam. think about a spot that is streched along the length of the bulb. so that it's focused along 1 dimension rather than 2.

ikn0xl
06/21/2006, 01:42 PM
show me data that white paint is a better reflector than a reflective mirrored surface, you guys need to take into consideration the reflective properties of light,

Look up richard feynman and his book QED once youve mastered that (takes a phisics student in 5th year grad school to understand) than you can make claims to whats hot and whats not.

Finally remember light reflects differently depending on what the surface is made of not what it looks like, simple as that now research my friends research your hearts out. lol j/k

-Regards
Sev

LBCBJ
06/21/2006, 02:00 PM
A hot-spot is not utter crap and does exist. A simple mind would understand that the area directly below a metal halide recieves more light than the area surrounding it. Look at any independent lighting pendant anaylsis and you will discover this.

gcarroll
06/21/2006, 02:01 PM
Sunlight Supply has proven that the dull finish of the reflector does not hamper it's performance. Per Sanjay's tests, there are few situations where their reflectors performed worse than a comparible reflector with the high polished reflector of it's competitors.

example: The ROIII tested out a little higher than the PFO mini with it's mirrored reflector.

To be honest I don't care as to why it is brighter. I'm not designing reflectors, just buying them. I just want to get the most out of my bulbs.

RichConley
06/21/2006, 02:05 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7602148#post7602148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ikn0xl
show me data that white paint is a better reflector than a reflective mirrored surface, you guys need to take into consideration the reflective properties of light,


I dont think he was talking abotu a mirrored surface, but a mirror.

Look at sanjay's tests. Specular aluminum smokes white paint like it 'aint no thang'

RichConley
06/21/2006, 02:08 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7601914#post7601914 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by manderx
lol. nobody means 'hot spot' as in a super-intense-burn-through-the-bottom-of-the-tank-beam-of-laser-fied-light. just that the light field is not uniformly distributed, so that you get areas (bands) of the light field that are somewhat more intense than others. if you put the sensor in one of these hotspots, then it will read higher than what the light field really is if you averaged it out. this can make 1 reflector appear to be 'better' than another when it might not be the case.

just because it's not focued into a round spot doesn't mean it's not a beam. think about a spot that is streched along the length of the bulb. so that it's focused along 1 dimension rather than 2.

For there to be what you suggest, there would have to be a bright spot along the length of a T5 bulb. Have you ever seen a T5 bulb that is brighter on one side than the other? I havent?

If the bulb is uniform, the reflection off a polished reflector is going to be uniform and distributed.

If the bulb is uniform, and you have an unpolished reflector, then things are no longer reflecting off the reflector in a consistent way, and you WILL get hot spots.


In the situation of a T5, you'd be more likley to get hotspots from an unpolished reflector. A MH is the opposite. I still dotn think its an issue.

Beenalongtime79
06/21/2006, 05:11 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7601599#post7601599 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gvibes
Sanjay has tested at least one of the LumenMaxes - I believe it was microscopically better than the comparable lumenarc..

Have a link to that article or info.? :) I guess if it is true, it just means that geometry is far more crucial than the small gains you get from Miro 7.

Peace,
John H.

Beenalongtime79
06/21/2006, 05:14 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7602148#post7602148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ikn0xl
show me data that white paint is a better reflector than a reflective mirrored surface, you guys need to take into consideration the reflective properties of light,

Look up richard feynman and his book QED once youve mastered that (takes a phisics student in 5th year grad school to understand) than you can make claims to whats hot and whats not.

Finally remember light reflects differently depending on what the surface is made of not what it looks like, simple as that now research my friends research your hearts out. lol j/k

-Regards
Sev

Man, I mastered that book when I was in my first year of the School of Hard Knocks! Haha

Peace,
John H.

gcarroll
06/21/2006, 05:28 PM
Luminarc Reflector tests
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/feature.htm

Luminarc Mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/feature.htm

Lumenmax Reflector tests
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/2/review/

ROIII & PFO Mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2003/feature.htm

Beenalongtime79
06/21/2006, 06:11 PM
Looking at just the light distribution, the lumenarcs still seem to trump the lumenmaxes since the lumenmaxes still yield that bimodal light distribution.

Peace,
John H.

Horace
06/22/2006, 03:06 PM
BTW here is some numbers of the T5 bulb output with different reflectors and w/out any reflector

http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76743

Horace
06/22/2006, 03:10 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7602314#post7602314 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gcarroll
To be honest I don't care as to why it is brighter. I'm not designing reflectors, just buying them. I just want to get the most out of my bulbs.

I couldnt agree more....I just made the incorrect assumption that polished = better. I was wrong :)