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thorsen
06/30/2006, 04:56 PM
I'm still a student and thus too poor and too unstable as far as where I live to set up and invest in a really terrific tank, but I have this distant dream of somedaying settling down on a little spot and setting up my own hydroelectric thingy, or solar, or wind, so I can generate all the electricity my heart desires (and that's a lot). Then I'll run so many metal halides you will be able to see my house from space. I've eyed different tanks on display in RC, but never have I seen anyone who has done this. Anyone know of anyone who has? By the way, I just want to give fair warning that this future tank of mine with it's private electrical plant will one day be tank of the month in here. Watch for it.

old salty
07/01/2006, 06:31 AM
Well, for hydroelectric, you would need a source of flowing water (a river or creek), for solar, you need lots of sun (Cali is a good place to start), and wind - well you need wind.

Generating electricity is easy, but not necessarily cheap. I think the cheapest way to go would be to purchase a diesel powered generator and run it on biodiesel that you produce from used cooking oil.

slothguy
07/01/2006, 06:54 AM
I know of something you will hear about in the next 6 months or so that will revolutionize the electrical industry... your dream isn't far off. Wait and watch!

Beenalongtime79
07/01/2006, 07:04 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7663052#post7663052 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slothguy
I know of something you will hear about in the next 6 months or so that will revolutionize the electrical industry... your dream isn't far off. Wait and watch!


I knew it... Cold fusion isn't just a wild man's dream anymore!!! Hahaha

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 07:27 AM
A few notes folks...

Firstly "biodiesel" is a joke. Lets pondwer what will happen when everybody starts consuming used cooking oil for fuel.

1) consumers of raw cooking oil will begin to sell the used stuff instead of giving it away.
2) there will be a shortage of cheap "used" oil.
3) consumers of the raw cooking oil will buy a LOT more fresh oil to "use" and sell for profit.
4) the price of cooking oil will skyrocket due to lack of production and the increased demand.
5) because the product is being used as fuel, new taxes will be placed on the NEW oil and USED oil. The EPA (etc) will step in to regulate the filtration and waste products from filtration.
6) lawsuits will be filed for and against the use of the oil.
7) Expensive testing and certification will need to be done on the oils, the engines etc. This will be for emissions, byproducts due to combustion etc.
8) There will be HUUUUUGGGEEE patent lawsuits over the design of method of cleaning. There will be lawsuits over the engines and patents on the parts (even though they are just diesel engines).
9) ANd to ice the cake the same greenie morons that say mining coal is scaring mother eath will then comaplina that we are sqaundering the corn supply the mother nature has blessed us with. After all growing corn for fuel would be wasting the fresh water that motehr nature rains down upon us.

Biodiesel is a joke.

With regards to the Wind turbine or water turbine. Most "home users' would NEVER realize a return on the investment needef tp purchase and maintain such a pwer generation system. Solar is a joke as well. These power generation methods are certainly workable, but they are most definatly not money savers. Getting government grants or rebates does not count either (your just spending somebody elses money).

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 07:31 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7663052#post7663052 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by slothguy
I know of something you will hear about in the next 6 months or so that will revolutionize the electrical industry... your dream isn't far off. Wait and watch!

bah... like Dean Caimens (Sp?) 2 wheeled scooter that was supposed to change the entire way humans traveled, interacted and built cities?

Sorry... but most in development technology is fairly known in this day and age. The industry, scientific and trade journals do a pretty good job of passing on what is being developed. I surely hope if you know something that the rest of don't know, and that something is going to "change" power distribution....

We have heard that a few times before... what about room temperature super conductors? Power transmission over microwave? Etc...

Well I certainly hope that if your one in the know, that you will be a trillionare. What I am saying is that if your not in that kind of position, then the information you poses is not that earth shattering or secret :)

If you are refering to the personal or neighborhood fuel cells.... then the news is rather old. GE has had a few test "sites" up for several year now around the country. Ahhh... nice idea and I can't wait to get mine, except I am sure that the cost will far exceede my power bills for the next 100 years :)


Then again all we can do is take your word for it and wait and see.

Beenalongtime79
07/01/2006, 08:48 AM
bean animal,

When did you become such a pessimist? :) Believe in your reefers... believe. Haha

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 09:12 AM
I believe in beer... grain fed angus beef, pretty girls, the US military and of course santa claus and the little guy in the refridgerator that turns the light on and off when you open and close the door.

I don't beleive in laywyers, poloticians, tree huggers, or anybody that says "just wait a few months and see, I know of a secret product that is going to change the way we live".

That said... when the power cells become affordable, sign me up. That will happen about the same time that most of the morons realize that hybrid cars are a flat out waste of time and resources :) I will wait for the fuel cells or better yet the nuke cars!

Beenalongtime79
07/01/2006, 09:22 AM
I'm still waiting for a water powered car. Haha. How long do you think that'll take???

moonpod
07/01/2006, 10:05 AM
Actually I priced out solar/PV for my house and it ain't so bad. I can zero out my bill with a 10 yr investment. That assumes no upward rises in electricity costs and no weird weather in L.A. (I figure with global warming if anything we'll have more sunny days, but I'm no meteorologist so....). So if you live in a sunny area, I don't actually think PV is a "joke". I'm actually sort of surprised it isn't more common. When I do my new landscaping I'm gonna roll the PV panels into the costs.

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 10:51 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7663523#post7663523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I believe in beer... grain fed angus beef, pretty girls, the US military and of course santa claus and the little guy in the refridgerator that turns the light on and off when you open and close the door.

I don't beleive in laywyers, poloticians, tree huggers, or anybody that says "just wait a few months and see, I know of a secret product that is going to change the way we live".

That said... when the power cells become affordable, sign me up. That will happen about the same time that most of the morons realize that hybrid cars are a flat out waste of time and resources :) I will wait for the fuel cells or better yet the nuke cars!

haha i agree with you completely.. especially with the hybrids the time it will take to repay the extra amount of upfront cost you could buy an suv and have it for five years for cheaper than the hybrid.

HippieSmell
07/01/2006, 11:03 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7663523#post7663523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I believe in beer... grain fed angus beef, pretty girls, the US military and of course santa claus and the little guy in the refridgerator that turns the light on and off when you open and close the door.

I don't beleive in laywyers, poloticians, tree huggers, or anybody that says "just wait a few months and see, I know of a secret product that is going to change the way we live".

At least you got the military and Santa Claus in the same group. The only people who blindly believe in either are children who don't know any better, and they're both just as likely to leave you a lump of coal as they are to leave you what you really wanted. :p

mr pink floyd
07/01/2006, 11:32 AM
has anyone seen the waterfuel video?

a guy can make a car go 100 miles on 4oz of water

changes H20 into HH0, gives off lots of energy or something, he made torcehs of it too, its realyl cool

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 12:27 PM
i have heard about those cars which sounds like a good idea..... i have also heard about the ones that use hydrogen and produce water...but the water run cars are probably alot cheaper to fill up then hydrogen!!. see those i can see to actually happen but i think hybrids are a complete joke....im keeping my explorer,navigator, and f350 :)

Beenalongtime79
07/01/2006, 01:44 PM
That stuff can so easily be faked.

Electrolysis of water into hydrogen takes a good bit of energy and it's not an automatic process at least not in our physical universe.... so it's very hard to believe that this would work. In essence, you would have to put more energy into the process than you would get out of it.

Now, hydrogen back into water is easy to believe (and is a reality) as it going down its energy curve and will release energy with its reaction, which of course fuels the car.

Peace,
John H.

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 01:52 PM
agreed

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 01:59 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7663714#post7663714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by moonpod
Actually I priced out solar/PV for my house and it ain't so bad. I can zero out my bill with a 10 yr investment. That assumes no upward rises in electricity costs and no weird weather in L.A. (I figure with global warming if anything we'll have more sunny days, but I'm no meteorologist so....). So if you live in a sunny area, I don't actually think PV is a "joke". I'm actually sort of surprised it isn't more common. When I do my new landscaping I'm gonna roll the PV panels into the costs.

Moonpod... did you calculate in the maintenance cost and component lifespans? What about storage cells? They have an 18 month lifetome on avg. Without storage cells, the system will require a large lifestyle change... something I and most people don't consider an option when talking about "alternative energry". Of course living in a ceder shack and eating berries could be consider also :)

jarhed
07/01/2006, 02:03 PM
Biodiesel will become a joke IN THE FUTURE, but right now, there are many people using it. Yep, the first thing I thought of when a friend of mine told me he was fueling his pickup in the backyard was "if this catches on, your not going to be able to find used restaurant oil anymore".

Right now though, he's paying around $1.40 per gallon to fuel his truck. He loves it and laughs at ME. :)

HippieSmell
07/01/2006, 02:41 PM
I think there are some unfair comparisons being made between alternative fuel sources and things such as oil and coal. Of course oil and coal are going to be cheaper now, but that doesn't make putting PV panels on your house a poor option. Sure, it will be more expensive, but so is buying a BMW over a Ford. There is still A LOT of oil left, but cheap oil is in its death throes. Then PV, wind, etc, will be more economically competitive. Lets not forget fusion either. But Europe, Japan, and China will probably beat us to that.

moonpod
07/01/2006, 02:54 PM
storage cells? You put the energy back into the grid. You don't "store it". You get a "credit" for the energy you generate which of course is at its peak at peak rates. All you need to worry about are the PV cells themselves failing, which to my understanding isn't common in socal. Realistically we don't get much rain or anything else that'll hit/damage the cells. You don't set this up and it's your source of electricity. You are still connected to "the grid". Basically your PV setup is another "generator" that's "inline" with the grid. Whatever electricity you generate doesn't even necessarily go to your house. It goes into "the system".

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 03:03 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7664771#post7664771 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
I think there are some unfair comparisons being made between alternative fuel sources and things such as oil and coal. Of course oil and coal are going to be cheaper now, but that doesn't make putting PV panels on your house a poor option. Sure, it will be more expensive, but so is buying a BMW over a Ford. There is still A LOT of oil left, but cheap oil is in its death throes. Then PV, wind, etc, will be more economically competitive. Lets not forget fusion either. But Europe, Japan, and China will probably beat us to that.

yes buying a beemer over a ford is more expensive, so is a buggati over a beemer. but thats not what we are talking about here. he wanted this for an alternative power source to use for a reef tank. now im not a real smart person on this solar stuff and am not sure how far they have come. but to what i know your going to need ALOT of panels to generate ALOT of electricity as he said he needed. maybe things have changed. but we are not talking about having solar just to say i have solar i dont think. i think we are pointing out that the savings in cost over time just isnt worth the effort right now. as he said though he imagines EVENTUALLY so maybe EVENTUALLY costs will come down and it will be more practical, currently though it does NOT and i repeat NOT make much sense. If im wrong in anything i have just said please correct me, also if i have offended any one in any way please let me know and im sorry for doing so. JUST MY OPINION

moonpod
07/01/2006, 03:12 PM
whether or not solar makes sense depends on where you live. It makes the most sense in the sunbelt. Places like Pittsburgh....zero sense. Basically you need almost year round sun of good intensity.

For someone living in Loma Linda like the original poster--it BLAZES out there. you get a lot of bang for your PV cell dollar.

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 03:21 PM
true that. but to figure the actual cost upfront, and how long it will take to recover the money, thats a different story. i myself dont have time right now to find all this stuff and figure it out,. figure on how many watts you wanted to produce, find the costs for everything you needed to make this doable. then estimate an electricity bill per month, then figure on how many years it would take to recover. plus the maintnence and such on the solar... im not sure but i would think it would take a great deal of time. i guess you could always take the solar stuff with you if you ever moved or if you plan on staying at your house for a while it might work but again just how long would it take?

moonpod
07/01/2006, 03:24 PM
they have calculators. In my case 10 years. I am "stuck" in this house barring anything unusual for at least that long b/c of my kids and their schools. Again, that assumes costs are static. Electricity costs go up, I recoup faster. We get hit by a huge storm that rips out my panels....I recoup slower. something happens to the weather patterns that make sunny socal not so sunny....I recoup slower....HOWEVER, if anything, it's been hotter and sunnier of late so....

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 03:28 PM
yeah i see your point and solar power is quite doable for many. i myself it is not, and for many others it is not. i guess it depends on your situation with kids,job,house, money. i think a big factor would be just the initial cost but im not sure how much that would be.

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 04:39 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7664771#post7664771 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
I think there are some unfair comparisons being made between alternative fuel sources and things such as oil and coal. Of course oil and coal are going to be cheaper now, but that doesn't make putting PV panels on your house a poor option. Sure, it will be more expensive, but so is buying a BMW over a Ford. There is still A LOT of oil left, but cheap oil is in its death throes. Then PV, wind, etc, will be more economically competitive. Lets not forget fusion either. But Europe, Japan, and China will probably beat us to that.


With regards to end user quality, convenience, etc...
Buying BMW over a FORD is trading up. Using SOLAR in place of GRID POWER is trading down. The arguement makes no sense.

Using solar is kinda like peeing yourself in a dark suit, it gives you a warm feeling, but nobody else notices. Once the warm feeling is gone, you end up with a mess.

It's kind of funny... all of those tree huggers who rant and rave about wind power keep voting down the wind farms in their home States, blabbbering something about scarring mother natures majestic pararies and mountainsides with eyesores.

We should likely takes this to the lounge :)

Unless of course we want to honestly talk about the costs of different homegrown power generation schemes.

don954
07/01/2006, 05:06 PM
over a 10 year amort, solar is the cheapest power source. Check out www.homepower.com for the authority in home generation power.

And BTW, its more like driving a VW, a proper solar system needs little maintenance and puts out perfect sine-wave AC with no spikes and undercurrents like line power. It also wont leave you in the dark when a storm comes.

Beane has evidently never actually took the time to read up on the subject and is just parroting someone's talking points.. don't let him/her discourage you.

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 06:30 PM
Don,

I have spent years reading about solar. I also have a very deep understanding of power systems and what makes them tick. I am very interested in solar energy acutally.

Lets get some things straight:
I certainly have no "spikes" or "undercurrents" (as you call them) feeding any of my critical equipment. You make it sound like a true sine wave with a constant RMS voltage is something magical... In my world we call it a battery connected to an inverter. In my case several 3kVA online type UPS systems. The DC bus feeds the power source at all times. When the mains power dies (and ceases to power the DC bus via the rectifier), THERE IS NO SWITCHOVER SPIKE as the DC bus is already the source of the power. Of course this can be done with an DC voltage regulator and inverter without the battery. Certainly not magic.

Now lets talk about solar DON... There are two type of systems OFF GRID and the so called GRID TIED. Of course you already know that.

From a commercial standpoint (where economies of scale make the technology MUCH CHEAPER)...
Generation costs are
SOLAR is about .25 a kWh!
WIND is about .05 a kWh!
(the arguement is of course in small power density location like homes it is PERFECT)... bahhh!

SIDETRACK ABOUT THE GRID:
In other words, putting this stuff on the grid raises everybodies price DON. While we are on the subject DON, lets talk about RURAL ELECTRIFICATION and the fact that YOU can SELL your excess power to the grid (if you so desire) .... The fact is that it usually costs the power company more to buy your power than they sell it for. (the details are pointless here) Once again somebody else is paying for your project :) Once again wouldn't be even cheaper to just apply for public assitance and get your power for free :D I hear there is even a program for groceries too!

All smart comments asside... lets get back on track:
You state that it "won't leave you in the dark". DON that can only be the case if you use batteries with an OFF GRID setup -OR- have a GRID TIED system.

DON PV sucks for providing BASELINE power... it always has and always will. With otu a GRID TIE and/or batteries the systems are pretty much useless in contect with a "normal" life.

Lets babble about batteries for a moment.
Do you happen to know ANYTHING about battery cells DON? Batteries have a limited lifespan. From the first charge they begin to lose capacity in the form of gradual decay. At the 18-24 month point ( pretty much regardless of duty cycle) they begin a VERY STEEP decline in capacity.

DON lets talk about batteries some more:
Lead acid batteries are the most suitable for high current "deep cycle" loads. Let me reapeat that word again LEAD... Now remember DON that these LEAD acid batteries need to be replaced AT LEAST EVERY 2 YEARS. Where does the LEAD GO DON? What about the cost of these units? What about the disposal costs? Who is going to do the maintenance?

We will not even go into the sheer numer of cells needed to provide 10kW of power during "dark" hours or dim days. Lets just say it takes a pretty darn large rack full of them. (Don I sell and maintain battery systems for UPS systems.... as large as 100kVA)

RoHS:
RoHS just became law in the EU.... LEAD batteries are on the chopping block? Isn't the UN trying to push RoHS on the US also? That's a whole nother can of worms.

SIDETRACK HYBRDID CARS:
Do you care to be schooled about the REAL cost of hybrid cars? Or do you want to point to more tree hugger feel good nonsense? Ohhh wait the NY times and half the world thinks HYBRID cars are a good thing... so they must be. A clue... they have LOTS of "storage cells" AKA batteries. They have LOTS of COPPER windings and LOTS of expensive wear parts. They have poor performance and high maintenance costs. Care to look at the lifespan of the engine components and drivetrain compared to a good oll small block V8? Care to look at the real numbers for the amount of plastic and other VOC containing components used to make hybrid cars?

Now lets get back to GRID TIED SYSTEMS:
DON what about the lifespan of the PV arrays (real world, not magazine hype)? Who is going to clean them? Who is going to maintain them? Thew fact is DON, without GOVERNMENT GRANTS, there is no savings on they systems. EVEN WITH the REBATE, most will never pay for themselves. Please don't try to convince me that spending somebody elses money on a solar array is any kind of "savings". If that is the case then "welfare" beats solar by far.

Lets get back so some basic facts:
There is a HUGE difference between quality PV arrays, switch gear and "nicities" and the bargain basement systems. The good systems simply cost a LOT more and DO NOT HAVE a 10 year payback. The cheap systems are NOT reliable and certainly require a LOT of user maintenance and lifestyle adjustments and will end up costing more to run and maintain or simply will not provide ample power and convenience. Ahhh.. there we are again the whole lifestyle adjustment thing.

DON if you read real world studies of SOLAR power, it on average costs TWICE what grid power does. The fact is that a large portion of the installs NEVER come close to paying for themselves EVEN WITH THE TAX REBATES AND GRANTS. It's no conspiracy by the energy companies. If solar was cost effective, the market would suck it up. MOST EPXPERTS think that it will still be 10-15 years before the techonlogy becomes truley affordable and reaps savings.

I might add that I don't really care for the PERSONAL attack, though the view of your *** is kind of amusing. If you insist on making it personal we can... I surely don't mind wrestling around in the mud. Talking points? NO, DON... Just honest opinons based on years of research and an honest interest in the technology. The difference is that my interest is not "green" and therefore the "green hype" and "environmental guilt" is not a deciding factor for me. My interest is in the facts and the technology, not the kyoto treaty or the reduction of oil consumption.

I would certainly like to take the discussion to a point where real world numbers and honesty are used to apply those numbers.

DO solar setups makes sense? Of course they do in some instances. DO they save money? I am sure in some cases they do. The best place for them is where grid power is NOT an option. California may also be a decent place for them due to the price of energy out there (thanks to the environmental morons and poloticians that only see things through one very distorted perspective and do more damange than good).

Am I against the environment... of course not. I am just tired of misinformation and "green" agendas that ignore everything that has to do with the truth.

DON, again... if you took your shots... I fired back on the same level with some very broad reasoning. If you want to discuss these point in detail.. .I would be more than happy.

I think it would benefit a lot of people to talk real world numbers.

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 06:47 PM
haha i like the pee yourself in a dark suit....LAUGH OUT LOUD

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 07:17 PM
I think the old quote actually went something like...

"Doing a good job around here is like peeing yourself in a dark suit...

...You get a warm feeling but nobody else notices."

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 07:37 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7665584#post7665584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Don,

I have spent years reading about solar. I also have a very deep understanding of power systems and what makes them tick. I am very interested in solar energy acutally.

Lets get some things straight:
I certainly have no "spikes" or "undercurrents" (as you call them) feeding any of my critical equipment. You make it sound like a true sine wave with a constant RMS voltage is something magical... In my world we call it a battery connected to an inverter. In my case several 3kVA online type UPS systems. The DC bus feeds the power source at all times. When the mains power dies (and ceases to power the DC bus via the rectifier), THERE IS NO SWITCHOVER SPIKE as the DC bus is already the source of the power. Of course this can be done with an DC voltage regulator and inverter without the battery. Certainly not magic.

Now lets talk about solar DON... There are two type of systems OFF GRID and the so called GRID TIED. Of course you already know that.

From a commercial standpoint (where economies of scale make the technology MUCH CHEAPER)...
Generation costs are
SOLAR is about .25 a kWh!
WIND is about .05 a kWh!
(the arguement is of course in small power density location like homes it is PERFECT)... bahhh!

SIDETRACK ABOUT THE GRID:
In other words, putting this stuff on the grid raises everybodies price DON. While we are on the subject DON, lets talk about RURAL ELECTRIFICATION and the fact that YOU can SELL your excess power to the grid (if you so desire) .... The fact is that it usually costs the power company more to buy your power than they sell it for. (the details are pointless here) Once again somebody else is paying for your project :) Once again wouldn't be even cheaper to just apply for public assitance and get your power for free :D I hear there is even a program for groceries too!

All smart comments asside... lets get back on track:
You state that it "won't leave you in the dark". DON that can only be the case if you use batteries with an OFF GRID setup -OR- have a GRID TIED system.

DON PV sucks for providing BASELINE power... it always has and always will. With otu a GRID TIE and/or batteries the systems are pretty much useless in contect with a "normal" life.

Lets babble about batteries for a moment.
Do you happen to know ANYTHING about battery cells DON? Batteries have a limited lifespan. From the first charge they begin to lose capacity in the form of gradual decay. At the 18-24 month point ( pretty much regardless of duty cycle) they begin a VERY STEEP decline in capacity.

DON lets talk about batteries some more:
Lead acid batteries are the most suitable for high current "deep cycle" loads. Let me reapeat that word again LEAD... Now remember DON that these LEAD acid batteries need to be replaced AT LEAST EVERY 2 YEARS. Where does the LEAD GO DON? What about the cost of these units? What about the disposal costs? Who is going to do the maintenance?

We will not even go into the sheer numer of cells needed to provide 10kW of power during "dark" hours or dim days. Lets just say it takes a pretty darn large rack full of them. (Don I sell and maintain battery systems for UPS systems.... as large as 100kVA)

RoHS:
RoHS just became law in the EU.... LEAD batteries are on the chopping block? Isn't the UN trying to push RoHS on the US also? That's a whole nother can of worms.

SIDETRACK HYBRDID CARS:
Do you care to be schooled about the REAL cost of hybrid cars? Or do you want to point to more tree hugger feel good nonsense? Ohhh wait the NY times and half the world thinks HYBRID cars are a good thing... so they must be. A clue... they have LOTS of "storage cells" AKA batteries. They have LOTS of COPPER windings and LOTS of expensive wear parts. They have poor performance and high maintenance costs. Care to look at the lifespan of the engine components and drivetrain compared to a good oll small block V8? Care to look at the real numbers for the amount of plastic and other VOC containing components used to make hybrid cars?

Now lets get back to GRID TIED SYSTEMS:
DON what about the lifespan of the PV arrays (real world, not magazine hype)? Who is going to clean them? Who is going to maintain them? Thew fact is DON, without GOVERNMENT GRANTS, there is no savings on they systems. EVEN WITH the REBATE, most will never pay for themselves. Please don't try to convince me that spending somebody elses money on a solar array is any kind of "savings". If that is the case then "welfare" beats solar by far.

Lets get back so some basic facts:
There is a HUGE difference between quality PV arrays, switch gear and "nicities" and the bargain basement systems. The good systems simply cost a LOT more and DO NOT HAVE a 10 year payback. The cheap systems are NOT reliable and certainly require a LOT of user maintenance and lifestyle adjustments and will end up costing more to run and maintain or simply will not provide ample power and convenience. Ahhh.. there we are again the whole lifestyle adjustment thing.

DON if you read real world studies of SOLAR power, it on average costs TWICE what grid power does. The fact is that a large portion of the installs NEVER come close to paying for themselves EVEN WITH THE TAX REBATES AND GRANTS. It's no conspiracy by the energy companies. If solar was cost effective, the market would suck it up. MOST EPXPERTS think that it will still be 10-15 years before the techonlogy becomes truley affordable and reaps savings.

I might add that I don't really care for the PERSONAL attack, though the view of your *** is kind of amusing. If you insist on making it personal we can... I surely don't mind wrestling around in the mud. Talking points? NO, DON... Just honest opinons based on years of research and an honest interest in the technology. The difference is that my interest is not "green" and therefore the "green hype" and "environmental guilt" is not a deciding factor for me. My interest is in the facts and the technology, not the kyoto treaty or the reduction of oil consumption.

I would certainly like to take the discussion to a point where real world numbers and honesty are used to apply those numbers.

DO solar setups makes sense? Of course they do in some instances. DO they save money? I am sure in some cases they do. The best place for them is where grid power is NOT an option. California may also be a decent place for them due to the price of energy out there (thanks to the environmental morons and poloticians that only see things through one very distorted perspective and do more damange than good).

Am I against the environment... of course not. I am just tired of misinformation and "green" agendas that ignore everything that has to do with the truth.

DON, again... if you took your shots... I fired back on the same level with some very broad reasoning. If you want to discuss these point in detail.. .I would be more than happy.

I think it would benefit a lot of people to talk real world numbers.

well i would say you have a little knowledge about electricity!! haha wow thats a lot of info there. i just became much smarter in the electrical section of my brain :) i must say anyone who has any questions about solar or electricity he pretty much sums it up right there!! thanks!!!

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 07:46 PM
i just cant get over how much i agree with you bean animal!! like i said earlier on you can get a good sized suv and keep it for a number of years and it will be cheaper than a hybrid


i guess some people like the upfront "feel good" of the hybrid while at the gas station but they dont take in mind the hidden costs. and then whenever you talk to a person that owns a hybrid (most people) get into stuff that they arent even knowledgeable about. and this one guy completely BS'd me. he got a toyota prius or whatever and i asked him this exactly "how do you figure that it pays to pay the extra upfront of the hybrid next to a standard car or even a large suv" then he says i got mine for 15k brand new with all options and i was like do you think im a complete idiot?? and that was the end of it lol....i know a good bit about cars and such and i completely hate hybrids...i think if gas prices are a problem, we need to drill in the gulf and in alaska for oil, not raise prices. im tired of hearing all this crap about the enviroment. its completely bogus. they say we need to stop driving SUVS and buy small hybrids yet most of them are riding around in limos and suburbans...am i not right??? then the whole abortion thing which isnt really related but think about it.... you can get arrested for accidently stepping on a rare turtle egg but its perfectly legal to have an abortion.. sorry to get off topic but i think bean knows exactly what im talking about here

Reefjunkee
07/01/2006, 07:58 PM
Go Beaner....I was going to say the exact same thing.LOL.

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 08:04 PM
rsxs... Most of the points I made are pretty broad and can be debated. Both sides of the the issue (the pros and cons of solar energy) have merits, and as time passes there are many more pros than cons.

In most "real world" circles with an honest cost breakdown and honest accounting of ALL costs, the ROI just isn't realized. When these facts are made clear, the next thing that you hear from the proponents is the whole "you can't put a price on the environement, everybody has to do their part" montra.

To agree or disagree with that is up to the individual and the cost or benefit can be weighed accordingly.

Another thought:
The other common "tactic" when trying to show ROI on these systems is to use extremely high future energy costs to show a real world ROI. However, those costs are predicted but the TODAY cost of the system is REAL. If the price of energy does not rise that highm, the ROI is pushed (or not ever met). This also means that one could as easily take the LUMP sump of momey spent on the SYSTEM and INVEST IT. If the energy costs do rise that high, then one could simply invest in those energy companies with the same money they would otherwise spend on the SOLAR system.

In any case, we are talking real world costs for a real world reliable system that does not require lifestyle change. The numbers are getting better... They are just not here. Spend your money elsewhere (unless of course you think that the cost of grid power is going to rise a few hundred (thousand?) percent over the next few years). If you feel that way, then SOLAR may be for you... don't forgett to burry those 10,000 gallon fuel tanks and water tanks in your yard and collect a few hundred (thousand?) pounds of gold, becuase if that happens electricity will be the least of your worries. You may want to stock up on ammon and start on the undeground hydroponic mushroom garden too.

For me... I will stick with RADIOMETER on my desk s my "solar" toy until the price of the systems hit a point that is more favorable (by that time I hope the fule cells are here).

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 08:11 PM
exactly.. and ill stick with the solar powered calculator :)

HippieSmell
07/01/2006, 08:12 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7665206#post7665206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
With regards to end user quality, convenience, etc...
Buying BMW over a FORD is trading up. Using SOLAR in place of GRID POWER is trading down. The arguement makes no sense.

Using solar is kinda like peeing yourself in a dark suit, it gives you a warm feeling, but nobody else notices. Once the warm feeling is gone, you end up with a mess.

It's kind of funny... all of those tree huggers who rant and rave about wind power keep voting down the wind farms in their home States, blabbbering something about scarring mother natures majestic pararies and mountainsides with eyesores.

We should likely takes this to the lounge :)

Unless of course we want to honestly talk about the costs of different homegrown power generation schemes.
It's all how you look at it Bean. Buying a BMW over a Ford is not TRADING UP, it's BUYING UP. They both get you from point A to point B, the only difference is the 'comfort' you have in each car. The Ford is cheaper and doesn't have leather seats, whereas the BMW does. What type of pleasure do you get out of sitting in leather seats? It's personal pleasure, nothing more, that's all it is. What type of pleasure do you get from knowing you didn't pump a bunch of CO2 into the atmosphere by using electricity generated from coal? Again, it's personal pleasure, but I would like to think that it has some benefit BEYOND my selfish pleasure. So my argument makes perfect sense. I pay more for PV electricity than I would for line electricity, and that extra money goes towards helping the environment (which you live on I might add; I would think that you would be more supportive of other people taking care of YOUR planet). I'll pee in a dark suit all day; I don't need 'high 5's' from strangers to feel good about what I do. I also think you should be careful with the 'tree hugger' comments. I personally don't care, but it isn't fair to lump all environmentalists into one group, because it is a very diverse field.

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 08:21 PM
well i think a bmw to a ford is trading up


OK lets compare here... a ford fivehundred is comparable to a 325i in size some what. leather is an option. but to get it decked out your paying quite a bit. a bmw your getting everything already plus more. you get just the plain out german factoring. now if you have been to germany you know they are all about saving money. look at what they do and i think that is a better way to "save the enviroment" as in light timers that automatically turn off the lights after 15 minutes of use or the super efficiant quiet diesels they have. tell me a vw diesel isnt very efficient and quiet then ill go buy a couple bentley continental spurs... basically what im aiming at is that a bmw is more than just a buy up as you said. yes it costs more but you get more too. plus just the name most people would agree that saying you have a bmw is more appealing than saying you have a ford. now i have nothing against ford i myself have had numerous fords in the past and they have all had no trouble until about the 125000 mile mark which is very good in my opinion. also IMO a bmw 325i is much nicer looking than a ford fivehundred


just my opinion

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 08:35 PM
i just did an online car pricing set. a bmw x5 and a ford explorer are pretty similar in size. bmw might be a little smaller but not much. to get a fully outfitted explorer your loooking at over 42,000 and you can get a bmw x5 similarly outfitted for 47,000. now chances are if your looking at a truck in that price range the extra 5 g's isnt that big of a deal. plus the gas mileage is a pretty a nit better on the x5. you get the bmw name plus all the wood trims, nicer speakers,manufacturing, so on.... just trying to prove a point here

HippieSmell
07/01/2006, 08:43 PM
I think you're getting too caught up in the analogy, rsxs. It was to make a point, not to be taken literally. My point is that you can buy what's cheap (line electricity), or buy what costs a little more (PV panels) and reduces your footprint on the planet. It's a moral/philosophical question more than anything.

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 08:45 PM
Your arguement only makes sense if you believe that man has the ability to pump enough CO2 in the atmosphere to really make a difference. I would also have to agree that using natural resources is selfish. I would also have to agree with a lot of other premisis that you bring forth (redistribution of wealth, fiarness in distribution of resources, and a host of other subjects that are involved with the "view" you put forth in your scenario).

I may or may not agree with any of those things...

With regards to "tree huggers", why should I be careful? They certainly are not careful when calling the like of me names or accuse "us" of "selfish pleasure" They certainly don't see the damage THEY do when they burn down a lumber mill in the name of saving lumber(or a thousand other examples).

Hippie... I fully respect those who have legitmate concern for the environment and undertake a responsible approach to do something about it. They key part is basing their concerns on PROVEN science and considering ALL OF THE RAMIFICATIONS of their proposed actions or "fixes". Sadly, this is rarely the case.

The same folks that say CO2 is going to cause us all to BAKE in 10 years were the same folks that said the ice age was coming 20 years ago.

The same folks that are crying about the cost of power in California are the same folks who lobbied to close the coal fired power plants.

The same folks the cry about the price of oil are the same folks who won't let us drill for it....

They gave us the joke we call "low vapor pressure fuel" and have allowed a false supply and demand to double our fuel prices.

They pushed to mandate MTBE for emisions only to find out it is worse than the emisions were in the first place and now most of the water supply in the western US is full of it.

They have given the world RoHS (the effects of which will be devastating to techology and economies).

We live in a world were Brad Pitt owns a jet but tells "us" to not use our dishwashers, where eco terrorists justify the killing of humans who don't agree with them. We listen to drivel from movie stars who own a house on every continent but tell us we should ride a bike when possible...

Hippie.. don't misunderstand me. If you (or anybody) wants to live off the grid, that is wonderful. I thinks it's a pretty cool idea. However, cool idea and the cost are two different things.

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 08:49 PM
Hippie, i could as easily say doing ones moral part would be to donate all of their money to environmental research and live in a hut with a small garden and compost bin. Where exactly is the line?

I guess the OP did not tell us if his reasons were monetary or moral. Therefore... I guess we are both aproaching this from a different angle.

rsxs1212
07/01/2006, 08:59 PM
i respect those who want to save the enviroment also..i was just stating a point... no i was not taking it literally just stating the actual points....

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 09:07 PM
Armed with the facts of real word cost and your pre-derived notions of environmental benefit or impact, you can make a sound decision that gives you that warm feeling :)

When using factors other than absolute monetary cost, the same decision may not work (or make "moral" sense) for somebody else. THAT is the key point that many "activists" with any issue often forget.

I would still like to get this discussion back onto the actual costs of setting up a reliable working SOLAR setup and see if we can look at a real work ROI. Everything I have looked at shows it to be about impossible (without freebies of course). Maybe somebody has better information.

HippieSmell
07/01/2006, 09:16 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7666152#post7666152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Your arguement only makes sense if you believe that man has the ability to pump enough CO2 in the atmosphere to really make a difference. I would also have to agree that using natural resources is selfish. I would also have to agree with a lot of other premisis that you bring forth (redistribution of wealth, fiarness in distribution of resources, and a host of other subjects that are involved with the "view" you put forth in your scenario).

I may or may not agree with any of those things...

With regards to "tree huggers", why should I be careful? They certainly are not careful when calling the like of me names or accuse "us" of "selfish pleasure" They certainly don't see the damage THEY do when they burn down a lumber mill in the name of saving lumber(or a thousand other examples).

Hippie... I fully respect those who have legitmate concern for the environment and undertake a responsible approach to do something about it. They key part is basing their concerns on PROVEN science and considering ALL OF THE RAMIFICATIONS of their proposed actions or "fixes". Sadly, this is rarely the case.

The same folks that say CO2 is going to cause us all to BAKE in 10 years were the same folks that said the ice age was coming 20 years ago.

The same folks that are crying about the cost of power in California are the same folks who lobbied to close the coal fired power plants.

The same folks the cry about the price of oil are the same folks who won't let us drill for it....

They gave us the joke we call "low vapor pressure fuel" and have allowed a false supply and demand to double our fuel prices.

They pushed to mandate MTBE for emisions only to find out it is worse than the emisions were in the first place and now most of the water supply in the western US is full of it.

They have given the world RoHS (the effects of which will be devastating to techology and economies).

We live in a world were Brad Pitt owns a jet but tells "us" to not use our dishwashers, where eco terrorists justify the killing of humans who don't agree with them. We listen to drivel from movie stars who own a house on every continent but tell us we should ride a bike when possible...

Hippie.. don't misunderstand me. If you (or anybody) wants to live off the grid, that is wonderful. I thinks it's a pretty cool idea. However, cool idea and the cost are two different things.
First off, CO2 levels have an impact on the environment. If you don't believe that, then you are not educated in that area. If you can find TWO good, non-popular, peer reviewed papers saying that CO2 emissions don't impact the environment, I will mess my pants for the world to see. You're trying to bring all of the 'environmentalist's' faults into the picture, when in reality there has to be anti-environmentalists for there to be environmentalists. Who is anti-environmentalist? Nobody (or very few wackos). The 'anti-environmentalists' are just pro something else, usually money. So to say that the 'environmentalists' have made all of these stupid laws that are actually bad for the environment is to promote a false dichotomy.

coralcats
07/01/2006, 09:26 PM
Don't get me going on closing the Salmon season, and protcting the Seals, closing the forest, to protect the spotted owl 3rd most polluted river in the nation, but bring in more ship repair, ok crap what was the question,, oh yea alternate power

BeanAnimal
07/01/2006, 10:29 PM
Hippie beleive what you want or what makes you happy. The irony is that most of the people on the planet running around repeating the words "global warming" have no freaking clue what they are talking about.

There is a world of science out there, applying only what serves ones puporose or agenda is irresponsible. I certainly do not wish to argue global warming or greenhouse gasses, as it is very obvious that we likely disagree on many points and the topic is WAY off topic here.

With regards to "environemtalists".... again beleive what you want. There are a few good poeple out there working on some great projects. There are also a TON of people out there with blinders on and all they see is their pet project with little regard to fact, reality, or the effects of their wishes.

I enjoy your posts and your perpsective on many things. However, I could as easily say that your use of the internet (electricity all along the way, plastic products used to build the infrastrucutre, copper to carry the signals, air conditioning (those server have to be cooled), and a million other related products and capitalistic companies... is a very selfish act all for the sake of your enjoyment of fish. You should unplug now and never look back, as every little bit helps :) Afterall you do agree that everybody is "pro" something else!!!

I never said I didn't blame greed or ignorance for problems.... that was not the subject, and that would entail an enirely different list of moronic laws, statutues and policies :)

I hope you see my point.

You can do what you feel is your part by going SOLAR and I will do my part by driving my V8 and keeping the tax revenue up and global warming rhetoric fresh so you can help pay for hte SOLAR setup with the extra tax dollars my waste generates :) We could even be roomates! Just shower before before the girls come over and don't try to convince me that cool people share their beer with everybody invcuding the seven poor guys that never buy any but sleep on our floor 3 nites a week.

badpacket
07/01/2006, 10:33 PM
Bean, I gotta agree with the other poster. Did ya get off the wrong side of the bed or what?

Biodiesel is in fact doable. Yahoo has several groups where there is a brisk community that is active. Here in the SF Bay Area, one of the groups has monthly seminars to teach people the process from a chemistry standpoint, how to build your own safe reactor (Appleseed), etc. Yes, it becomes econimically unfeasible if any great percentage of people start doing it. However in the long run, at the current pricepoint of gas, the messing around with old, nasty cooking oil, storage of it, rodent attraction, etc, means it is going to remain a small niche.

Solar is certainly not a joke. Solar has continued to drop in cost while increasing in efficiency. For people paying freakin' $300K, $400K, $500K+ for a 3-4 bedroom house, adding $15K to get solar on your roof that will handle most of the daily power requirements is not stupid. Whether you want to run your house, sell back too grid, or potentially both.
Without sounding to much like a smelly hippy, every home with solar connected to the grid is one more free electricity producing plant.
There are a lot of people who have had solar panels that have lasted 20 years on their roofs. And I haven't heard of many problems outside the occasional inverter going bad.

Me? I've been following this crazy Australian the last year or so. He is at http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au/
and he's looking to undercut the standard solar panel big boys.

Next time there's a run of power blackouts due to the heat, or plant "maintanence", or some terrorist attack, I wouldn't mind having power during the day.
If I said I wanted it as a power back-up w/battery for my reef would it pass the smell test ? :)




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7664823#post7664823 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by moonpod
storage cells? You put the energy back into the grid. You don't "store it". You get a "credit" for the energy you generate which of course is at its peak at peak rates. All you need to worry about are the PV cells themselves failing, which to my understanding isn't common in socal. Realistically we don't get much rain or anything else that'll hit/damage the cells. You don't set this up and it's your source of electricity. You are still connected to "the grid". Basically your PV setup is another "generator" that's "inline" with the grid. Whatever electricity you generate doesn't even necessarily go to your house. It goes into "the system".

HippieSmell
07/01/2006, 10:53 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7666646#post7666646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Hippie beleive what you want or what makes you happy. The irony is that most of the people on the planet running around repeating the words "global warming" have no freaking clue what they are talking about.

There is a world of science out there, applying only what serves ones puporose or agenda is irresponsible. I certainly do not wish to argue global warming or greenhouse gasses, as it is very obvious that we likely disagree on many points and the topic is WAY off topic here.

With regards to "environemtalists".... again beleive what you want. There are a few good poeple out there working on some great projects. There are also a TON of people out there with blinders on and all they see is their pet project with little regard to fact, reality, or the effects of their wishes.

I enjoy your posts and your perpsective on many things. However, I could as easily say that your use of the internet (electricity all along the way, plastic products used to build the infrastrucutre, copper to carry the signals, air conditioning (those server have to be cooled), and a million other related products and capitalistic companies... is a very selfish act all for the sake of your enjoyment of fish. You should unplug now and never look back, as every little bit helps :) Afterall you do agree that everybody is "pro" something else!!!

I never said I didn't blame greed or ignorance for problems.... that was not the subject, and that would entail an enirely different list of moronic laws, statutues and policies :)

I hope you see my point.

You can do what you feel is your part by going SOLAR and I will do my part by driving my V8 and keeping the tax revenue up and global warming rhetoric fresh so you can help pay for hte SOLAR setup with the extra tax dollars my waste generates :) We could even be roomates! Just shower before before the girls come over and don't try to convince me that cool people share their beer with everybody invcuding the seven poor guys that never buy any but sleep on our floor 3 nites a week.
It doen't matter if "most of the people" have a clue about global warming. What matters is that the people who do know are correct in the fact that global warming is a real phenomenom. I can understand that you do not want to argue the reality and causes of global warming, as it would be a complete waste of time and ultimate failure on your part. Have fun rationalizing your admittedly gluttonous lifestyle; I hope it gives you peace in the end.

ECEKatko
07/01/2006, 11:17 PM
In terms of actual cost, this isn't directly related to a whole house-style PV grid, but a smaller one. I'm actually on the solar car team at OSU (great engineering experience more than anything), so we tend to look at the higher-end commercially available PVs. I don't remember the exact numbers, but for somewhere around a 5m by 2 (or 3)m grid of high efficiency (over 21%) PV cells, including lamination, pre-processing, shipping, and wiring (granted that some of that could be done by hand at home), it was around 30-32k. This isn't an accurate representation of costs for a home system - the high efficiency cells have actually been tough to buy lately from most of the companies, as they're devoting more of their time and money to developing lower efficiency, but more affordable home systems.

1-2 years ago, though similar cells for the same system would've been around 15-20k. The price for these can fluctuate a HECK of a lot. Depending on what's being run, the grid we've checked out can deliver a lot of power for its size. I think our design was 60V throughout, max of 30A, which is pretty high current for...well, a lot of stuff. I think the cells we looked at were 21% efficient or so, which is very high (and pricy) for all the PVs out there. As long as money isn't being poured into it, it'll be years before this type of cell would become cheap enough for common use. Granted, the sun belt doesn't need anything like this, but other less sunny areas would need more efficient cells.

While I'm rambling at length about not a lot (sorry, but I love this stuff), they're actually pretty close to solving the battery problem, hopefully. They've built nanoscale batteries that have incredibly longer shelf lives (10-20+ times as long) that recharge faster. This one http://www.voyle.net/Nano%20Battery/Nano%20Battery%202005-0003.htm talks about them a little but doesn't get too technical. It'll take years before they become really readily available and decently cheap, but once they do, it should help a lot with shelf lives for all battery applications, including PV arrays.

Sorry for the tangents, this is the kind of stuff I hope to be doing post-college. Just some thoughts on aspects of setting up a PV grid.

Beenalongtime79
07/01/2006, 11:26 PM
Global warming happens. :) It's just a matter of what or who is causing it? Is it all natural phenomen or has it been greatly accelerated by our doing. Who knows?

All I know is that I probably won't be around to see its ultimate effects. :) Just think, maybe in 100,000 years, they'll be talking about the possible future devastation caused by global cooling. :)

Peace,
John H.

Beenalongtime79
07/01/2006, 11:28 PM
I can't wait for solar power to become truly feasible for the masses. In about 7-10 more years I'll have the actual cash to invest in such system and hopefully, things we'll have progressed a little bit by then.

HippieSmell
07/01/2006, 11:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7666899#post7666899 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rufio173
Global warming happens. :) It's just a matter of what or who is causing it? Is it all natural phenomen or has it been greatly accelerated by our doing. Who knows?

All I know is that I probably won't be around to see its ultimate effects. :) Just think, maybe in 100,000 years, they'll be talking about the possible future devastation caused by global cooling. :)

Peace,
John H.
Who knows? WE KNOW. I think global warming skeptics have about 20 yrs (if that) left to be a skeptic. Then I'm afraid that there won't be any room left for denying it, and sadly maybe not enough time to do anything about it. Global warming and cooling does happen naturally, corresponding with natural fluctuations of CO2. But, guess what? We put massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere that are WAY ABOVE natural fluctuations. Go read about it for god's sake, it's not a secret.

breakn
07/02/2006, 03:58 AM
ok so i am confused
what?
where am i?
who am i?
damn so confused?
oh thats right reef tanks, that is what was on my mind
before being sucked into this vortex of futile conversation.
.naw who am kidding i like reading all this stuff, its like a soap opera

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 07:14 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7666668#post7666668 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badpacket
[B]Bean, I gotta agree with the other poster. Did ya get off the wrong side of the bed or what?

Biodiesel is in fact doable.... Yes, it becomes econimically unfeasible if any great percentage of people start doing it. However in the long run, at the current pricepoint of gas, the messing around with old, nasty cooking oil, storage of it, rodent attraction, etc, means it is going to remain a small niche.


So what? Putting a dyno on the basement and forcing the kids to peedle to watch TV is doable. Using a composting toilet is doable, the resulting methane can even be used for cooking and heating. Planting food instead of grass is doable...

Ohh wait back to the point... The point is that biodiesel is certainly doable... but the proponents are babbling that we should all be doing it. If you are a biodiesel user, I would PRAY that it does not catch on. It will certainly ruin it for you.


Solar is certainly not a joke. Solar has continued to drop in cost while increasing in efficiency.

Of course it has! And in 10 years it may be feasible.


For people paying freakin' $300K, $400K, $500K+ for a 3-4 bedroom house, adding $15K to get solar on your roof that will handle most of the daily power requirements is not stupid. Whether you want to run your house, sell back too grid, or potentially both.

What does the price of the house have to do with it? Unless of course you are saying that rich people should pay more for their juice to help the environment.


Without sounding to much like a smelly hippy, every home with solar connected to the grid is one more free electricity producing plant.

IT'S NOT FREE. YOUR SUBSIDY is costing somebody else more for grid power. That the problem.


There are a lot of people who have had solar panels that have lasted 20 years on their roofs. And I haven't heard of many problems outside the occasional inverter going bad.

Yes inverters are the highest failure part. Nobody said that they wouldn't last 20 years... again your confusing the issue. PAYOFF was the topic.


Me? I've been following this crazy Australian the last year or so. He is at http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au/
and he's looking to undercut the standard solar panel big boys.

Yeah I have looked at that a few times... It will be nice when the systems do get to the point where real world savings can be realized in a short amount of time.


Next time there's a run of power blackouts due to the heat, or plant "maintanence", or some terrorist attack, I wouldn't mind having power during the day.

Of course that is a benefit of solar (or wind, or a simple CH4/PROPANE generator).


If I said I wanted it as a power back-up w/battery for my reef would it pass the smell test ? :)
You better have deep pockets for the battery arrays :)

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 07:28 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7666776#post7666776 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
It doen't matter if "most of the people" have a clue about global warming. What matters is that the people who do know are correct in the fact that global warming is a real phenomenom. I can understand that you do not want to argue the reality and causes of global warming, as it would be a complete waste of time and ultimate failure on your part. Have fun rationalizing your admittedly gluttonous lifestyle; I hope it gives you peace in the end.


Hippie, again you base everything you say on the premise that YOU have the facts. You then go on to put yourself ABOVE ME and my lifestyle? Very typical of the "hippie" mindest I guess.

The irony is that you are wasting mother natures resources right here right now talking to me about this. I guess you can justify it because you are attempting to "teach" the rest of us. Gimme a break.

I don't want to argue global warming or greenhouse gases with you because It is not appropriate here. I also have a feeling that you would cause my head to explode by shoving it full of twisted nonsense. I like my head... and I like my nonsense in small doses, where I can purge it and/or ignore it.

Someboday in private, when your ready to dig through the peer review, grant money greed, world polotics and wealth redistribution schemes... maybe then we can have a civil talk about real science and what happens on this planet. Until then enjoy your sandals and keep those knee jerks to a minimum...

Hippie... I do like talking to you... can we get back to fish and away from the whole "your a planet killer" talk?

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 07:37 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7666993#post7666993 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
Who knows? WE KNOW. I think global warming skeptics have about 20 yrs (if that) left to be a skeptic. Then I'm afraid that there won't be any room left for denying it, and sadly maybe not enough time to do anything about it. Global warming and cooling does happen naturally, corresponding with natural fluctuations of CO2. But, guess what? We put massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere that are WAY ABOVE natural fluctuations. Go read about it for god's sake, it's not a secret.

My plan would be to kill all of the cows... that would certainly reduce the methane and C02.

I would then kill about 2/3 of the poeple... they breathe out C02 as well. Of course, the Evil US would be the first place to go (though I would leave the hippies, as they are well.. moraly superior). The EU is big on kyoto and the likes... but they do drive cars. I guess they would have to go. China could care less about warming... and they certainly do not have clean air standards AND they drive cars! They would have to go.

Bah.. what am I talking about! Why not just wipe all the humans out so that mother nature can take the planet back :)

In an attempt to get back on track...

do any of you wish to share your monthyly kWh usage and rates? It may be fun to "price out" an off-grid and grid-tied system for a few different scenarios and zipcodes.

Roland Jacques
07/02/2006, 08:26 AM
OH MY GOODNESS,

Bean, you Animal you, WOW you are in rare form. Bravo, Bravo...

Again, you are the voice of reason. Thanks for saving me the time and energy (pun intended).


Truly Roland,
President of, the Bean for President, of the Bean for President fan club. :mixed:

Beenalongtime79
07/02/2006, 08:46 AM
Get a life Hippiesmell. Your eco commie propaganda is getting on my nerves. We only have like 20 years, give me a break.

I was trying to help you out a little, but since you are the VOICE of eco conservation, no help needed, since you are the smartest man in the world.

Hey look at me, I'm hippiesmell, not only am I the smartest, most well informed and well versed person on issues such as alternative power and global warming, but my car fumes smell like roses and yours smell like ****.

Peace,
John

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 08:55 AM
Nah, the jobs not for me... you have to put up with to many morons in suits. In addition, when would I have time to play with my fish tank.

I think for now I will just stick to beer, girls, fish and fun. Someplace in between I will keep my business running and water the plants while waiting for the Hydrogen fuel cells to become affordable.

I currently use about $200 worth of juice a month. I am in the process of taking down about 8 servers and combining them into 1. That should reduce our bill by a decent amount. I have pretty much reduced our gas bill to nothing by using a wood stove in the winter... GASP!!!! I am burning trees and creating unfiltered emissions!!! I am also looking at putting a warm water recovery heat exchanger on our waste pipe... but have not been able to determine if it will pay for itself soon enough to worth the trouble.

"bean for prez" does have a nice ring to it. I wonder how many hippies would throw rocks at me and then accuse me of starting a fight when I punched them out?

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 09:00 AM
While I'm rambling at length about not a lot (sorry, but I love this stuff), they're actually pretty close to solving the battery problem, hopefully. They've built nanoscale batteries that have incredibly longer shelf lives (10-20+ times as long) that recharge faster. This one http://www.voyle.net/Nano%20Battery/Nano%20Battery%202005-0003.htm talks about them a little but doesn't get too technical. It'll take years before they become really readily available and decently cheap, but once they do, it should help a lot with shelf lives for all battery applications, including PV arrays.
These cells are a BIG DEAL. If and when the technology moves forward, it will be HUGE. I have been keeping track of the technology for quite a while. It will make a difference in a LOT of products and certainly reduce the cost of harmful consumables. Used in conjunction with nanotube technology in building structures... the possibilities are endless.

Sadly, I am not sure if I will see it in my lifetime. The Aerogel that NASA and others are using is some pretty neat stuff. If you guys have not looked into it... please do. It is just now (20 years later?) becoming available to BIG industry at a BIG cost. Will it ever make it to the mainstream? Who knows, but it is certainly another product that has HUGE ramifications for everything from house insulations to more efficient steel production.

LBCBJ
07/02/2006, 09:24 AM
I find it both sad and ridiculous that a thread like this, which is totally out there and unfeasible, has received so much attention...3 pages of post. I posted a thread 2-3 days ago about Rowaphos, something actually pertinant to reefkeeping, that still has not received one reply, not one. Disgusting.

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 09:33 AM
And your addition to this thread has done what? It has added to the disgusting nonsense.... gotta love it :)

There was once a virus called "good times" on the interent. The virus was not really a virus at all. It was a hoax, the "payload" of the virus was the masses of people that emailed back and forth warning of the virus, followed by the masses of people warning that it was a hoax, followed by the masses of people replying that it WAS a virus because it brought down their mail servers...

The other common internet phenominon is a USENET thread with 99.9% of the posts in a large being rants and replies about off topic posts, with each party feeling that their .02 is justified, yet the whole thing is nothing but off topic argueing. Kinda fun to watch...

[looking for your rowa thread now... to see if I can help... maybe others here can do the same]

LBCBJ
07/02/2006, 09:41 AM
BeanAnimal I just bumped it in the Reef Discussion forum. It's not so much about my question, as just a general priniciple. I usually see 50% or more of post here either go unanswered or get maybe one or two replies. Many people come here either desperate for help or are new to the hobby and looking for good advice, but most get scanty help at most. Yet someone post a thread like this and people start coming out the woodwork.

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 10:00 AM
Yeah it is very anoying when you ask a question that YOU KNOW has an answer...

Poeple would also riot if Opera or Jerry Springer got canceled :)

ohh wait, the clouds are starting to move in... I gotta log off before I lose power :D

rsxs1212
07/02/2006, 02:42 PM
bean offers you his protection

lol

it is annoying, very i might add, when people dont answer threads. i have been in that situation many times. i look through the forums quite a bit and when i know a little something about something i say something (that was alot of somethings) . or if i am just interested in a thread i will subscribe....i have learned much from this thread and am glad it is going on...

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 06:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7667745#post7667745 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rufio173
Get a life Hippiesmell. Your eco commie propaganda is getting on my nerves. We only have like 20 years, give me a break.

I was trying to help you out a little, but since you are the VOICE of eco conservation, no help needed, since you are the smartest man in the world.

Hey look at me, I'm hippiesmell, not only am I the smartest, most well informed and well versed person on issues such as alternative power and global warming, but my car fumes smell like roses and yours smell like ****.

Peace,
John
Oh, boohoo, grow some thicker skin. At least Bean still swings it out and doesn't get all flaky on me. I'm sorry if I come off as the smartest man in the world, it's just that when people don't look at the facts and try to deny things and call me names and generally don't care that I feel the need wake you up a little. And yes, I believe we have 20 yrs until there is no doubt that global warming is real. Did I say we would all be dead by then? No. I said there will be no more denying it. Do you realize how long it takes for the entire planet to shift gears on a scale that is probably needed in order to make an appreciable impact on emissions? Decades. Do we have decades to do what we need to do AFTER we spend a couple decades wondering if these changes are needed? After China and India are fully industrialized? After the poplulation is 12 billion? I sure hope so, because there are a lot of people like yourself who want to ignore it.

Beenalongtime79
07/02/2006, 06:22 PM
Don't worry, human ingenuity will save all hippie. :)

To be totally honest, I used to be like you hippie and then stopped caring about it since in the end, only catastrophic measures or changes will cause a response from the mass public. Trying to blow smoke up other people's a***** won't do anything but **** them off more.

Screaming and yelling about it now when the change is not apparent on a catastrophic scale will engender no response from anybody that matters for ****.

I do agree that when the stuff hits the happen, things will get done, but then again, it'll probably be at a huge cost to the world wide population as a whole.

I was trying to put another thought out there and say that well, these things do happen naturally and that, "Yeah, maybe we are accelerating its course", but what's that mean in the long run? Is changing anything now going to reap any benefits within the next 100 years. I sure as hell know I probably won't be alive by that time to see any of this happen.

Plus, I hate hypocrites. You run a reef, you run a computer, I'm sure you run electricity just like the rest of us, and I bet you've even got your AC running at a good steady rate. By just running your reef, you've probably already supplanted many other laypeople out there in terms of energy use, so stuff a sock in it. I mean, if people like you aren't willing to make sacrifices, then don't expect the rest of the world to no matter how much you yell and scream. By the way, being a plant biologist doesn't make you anymore closely connected to "mother earth" than anybody else. Haha

Peace,
John H.

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 06:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7667526#post7667526 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Hippie, again you base everything you say on the premise that YOU have the facts. You then go on to put yourself ABOVE ME and my lifestyle? Very typical of the "hippie" mindest I guess.

The irony is that you are wasting mother natures resources right here right now talking to me about this. I guess you can justify it because you are attempting to "teach" the rest of us. Gimme a break.

I don't want to argue global warming or greenhouse gases with you because It is not appropriate here. I also have a feeling that you would cause my head to explode by shoving it full of twisted nonsense. I like my head... and I like my nonsense in small doses, where I can purge it and/or ignore it.

Someboday in private, when your ready to dig through the peer review, grant money greed, world polotics and wealth redistribution schemes... maybe then we can have a civil talk about real science and what happens on this planet. Until then enjoy your sandals and keep those knee jerks to a minimum...

Hippie... I do like talking to you... can we get back to fish and away from the whole "your a planet killer" talk?
Why do people feel like I'm putting myself up on a pedestal? All I'm saying is don't crap where you sleep. I'm not saying to ditch the SUV or stop having bonfires. I'm saying SUPPORT a more earth-friendly way of living that can become mainstream, cheap, and EASY to do, and stop thinking that it's ok to be eco-ignorant. That's it. Simply realizing that what you are doing might be bad for the environment is the first step. Stupid, self-righteous hippies like me will be the guinea pigs, but it will ultimately benefit everyone.

And Bean, trying to reduce the global warming phenomenom into a GLOBAL conspiracy fabricated by greedy grant money scientists is laughable. Are some people going to use global warming to further their own agendas? Sure, but what else is new?

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 06:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7670148#post7670148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rufio173
don't worry, human ingenuity will save all hippie. :)
Uhhh, not if we don't wake up and start using our ingenuity.

rsxs1212
07/02/2006, 06:36 PM
well i acknowledge that yes what i am doing is harming the enviroment to a degree... but so is everyone else on earth...its just the cycle that happens on earth and we have to accept it. im not changing my whole life style because unless everyone in the world does it its not going to make that much of an effect.....im not like harming it purposely but like mowing the lawn, my little gas rc cars, my trucks, my boat, everything almost harms the enviroment to some degree, even me. if global warming is supposed to happen its gonna happen there is no stopping it. im not at all worried about it to tell you the truth.

Beenalongtime79
07/02/2006, 06:40 PM
You know, honestly, I like this thread. It's brought up some good issues and sure people have gotten irritated, but what's wrong with a little irritation now and then when the posts are this good. Haha

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 07:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7670226#post7670226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsxs1212
well i acknowledge that yes what i am doing is harming the enviroment to a degree... but so is everyone else on earth...its just the cycle that happens on earth and we have to accept it. im not changing my whole life style because unless everyone in the world does it its not going to make that much of an effect.....im not like harming it purposely but like mowing the lawn, my little gas rc cars, my trucks, my boat, everything almost harms the enviroment to some degree, even me. if global warming is supposed to happen its gonna happen there is no stopping it. im not at all worried about it to tell you the truth.
You're talking about small apples, the things that I don't think are a big deal. I'm talking about large scale projects, like electricity generation, massive deforestation, urban sprawl, etc. If the planet spent a fraction of what is spent on the military on things such as alternative fuel, clean water for 3rd world countries, economic opportunity for developing countries, etc, we would be far ahead of the game. But, people are greedy and crave power. It's our own fault, really, we can't blame anyone else. And don't get discouraged by thinking that what you do is insignificant. It all helps, and it might give you an undeserved smug feeling like it gives me.

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 07:15 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7670148#post7670148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rufio173
Don't worry, human ingenuity will save all hippie. :)

To be totally honest, I used to be like you hippie and then stopped caring about it since in the end, only catastrophic measures or changes will cause a response from the mass public. Trying to blow smoke up other people's a***** won't do anything but **** them off more.

Screaming and yelling about it now when the change is not apparent on a catastrophic scale will engender no response from anybody that matters for ****.

I do agree that when the stuff hits the happen, things will get done, but then again, it'll probably be at a huge cost to the world wide population as a whole.

I was trying to put another thought out there and say that well, these things do happen naturally and that, "Yeah, maybe we are accelerating its course", but what's that mean in the long run? Is changing anything now going to reap any benefits within the next 100 years. I sure as hell know I probably won't be alive by that time to see any of this happen.

Plus, I hate hypocrites. You run a reef, you run a computer, I'm sure you run electricity just like the rest of us, and I bet you've even got your AC running at a good steady rate. By just running your reef, you've probably already supplanted many other laypeople out there in terms of energy use, so stuff a sock in it. I mean, if people like you aren't willing to make sacrifices, then don't expect the rest of the world to no matter how much you yell and scream. By the way, being a plant biologist doesn't make you anymore closely connected to "mother earth" than anybody else. Haha

Peace,
John H.
So, if you're not around to see the benefits then it isn't worth doing? Come on man, have a heart. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you don't have any kids.

Just because I have a reef doesn't make me a hypocrite, look at what I've said in these posts. Plus, you don't know anything about my lifestyle, my reef is the only luxury I have. Also, my plant biology background doesn't give me the views I have about ecology, my views about ecology made me go into plant biology, there's a difference.

rsxs1212
07/02/2006, 07:27 PM
well i understand that..but some things just have to happen...like the war for instance. i think bush is spending a bit much but im better that then just sit here while terrorist plan to invade the whole country or whatever. we have done pretty good so far but any loss in life is one to many.as for electric generation...that is pretty good one....we have all been brought up with electricity around us here in america so we just keep making more and more things that use more and more of it. i think if we are going to change to solar...the government should make a huge solar place out in the desert or something and make like a solar powerplant...it would help quite a bit in my opinion....it might be kind of impractical but its an idea....other than that i dont know how else to improve on our usings of electricity..i doubt many will want to give up some electric to help the enviroment...i think we just need to improve the efficiancy of our powerplants, i think that will help the most

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 07:36 PM
I'm saying SUPPORT a more earth-friendly way of living that can become mainstream, cheap, and EASY to do, and stop thinking that it's ok to be eco-ignorant.

Part of the point is/was that a vast majority of the stuff people pawn off as "earth-friendly" is utterly nonsense. I for one am tired of having "earth-friendly" shoved down my throat. Day after day we see laws and policies based on questionable science, questionable conservation measures, and questionable logic. Yet if you attach "eath-friendly" to anything it becomes a guilt issue. Again, I am not against the environment. I AM against self rightous people using the environment to redistribute wealth and prosperity in the name of humankind. I am tired of people saying "so what if it costs a little more, it is good for the planet" without also taking the time to figure out what the real cost or detriment to other people is. I am tired of paying for recylcing programs that do nothing but line the pockets of waste companies and politicians while they burry over 90% of the collected materials along side the normal waste. I am tired of hearing how "plastic" takes 200 years to decompose. Bah rock takes even longer. So what?

Because I have $100 and you have $50 does not mean I have an obligation to give you $25. Yet that is what most of this crap boils down to.

Back to the off topic topic:
We are/were talking about solar energy, but the hybrid car issue is the same, except for the fact that hollywood and the moron media has embranced it. Hybrid cars are a complete joke, yet none of the talking heads are willing to broach the subject. Will they lead to "better" technology? I am sure. However, in their current form (and any near off form) all they are is very wasteful taxpayer subsidised transportation. They are the next political guilt trip that is going to be shoved down consumers throats, no matter if they like them or not. Why? becuase ill-informed people have made them out to be a boon and detroit has taken the bait (or helpded promote it as sales are sales afterall... and what better way to sell cars than to have the media and government sell them for you).

When somebody can honestly show me a usable solar setup that meets my demands without a lifestyle change, one that can pay for itself or save money, then I will listen. I have spent A LOT of time over the years looking at these systems and have yet to really find one that meets the above criteria (or really even comes close).

And Bean, trying to reduce the global warming phenomenom into a GLOBAL conspiracy fabricated by greedy grant money scientists is laughable. Are some people going to use global warming to further their own agendas? Sure, but what else is new? [/B]
Again we have very different views on this subject. Of course there is more to the whole mess than that. If you really believe that you know the truth and nothing can refute it, then I hope it gives you comfort. I don't agree, and my position gives me comfort. I am unwilling to argue this subject here, not for fear of losing, but simply because this is not the appropriate place. In addition, I simply don't have the energy or the desire to waste my time with something that is sure to be more than a bit frustrating.

Enjoy

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 07:41 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7670499#post7670499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rsxs1212
well i understand that..but some things just have to happen...like the war for instance. i think bush is spending a bit much but im better that then just sit here while terrorist plan to invade the whole country or whatever. we have done pretty good so far but any loss in life is one to many.as for electric generation...that is pretty good one....we have all been brought up with electricity around us here in america so we just keep making more and more things that use more and more of it. i think if we are going to change to solar...the government should make a huge solar place out in the desert or something and make like a solar powerplant...it would help quite a bit in my opinion....it might be kind of impractical but its an idea....other than that i dont know how else to improve on our usings of electricity..i doubt many will want to give up some electric to help the enviroment...i think we just need to improve the efficiancy of our powerplants, i think that will help the most
Well, the war is something I don't want to get into. And you're right, I think the best thing is to improve on energy generation. If we had clean, cheap, abundant energy, almost all of our problems would be solved. But what would cheap, clean, abundant energy entail? It would entail loss of profits by the major energy corporations, and it would remove the influence enjoyed by those that contol the flow of energy. If you control energy flow, you control the country.

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 07:46 PM
rsxs.. we need to keep direct polotics out of this, or the thread is sure to get locked.

The problem with a government "solar" project is simply the cost. At this time the cost per megawat from a full scale solar plant is almost exactly twice that of a coal fired or hydro plant.

Sadly, the nuke plants are not far behind in terms of cost per megawat. There is just SO MUCH freakin overhead that they are not money makers for the people who run them.

But lets take you proposition at face value... Can you guess how many environmental groups would tie the project up in court? One of the biggest costs of any energy related project is the initial site study, phase1 and phase2 environmental impact studies, lawsuit mitigation and site redesign to please the tree huggers (who are never happy, unless the project is totaly aborted). So many criteria (most of them nonsense) have to be met, that most companies simply don't go down the path of building new or more modern facilities. Why would Shell, Exxon Mobile, or any other company want to build a new facility when faced with those kind of hurdles? Instead they smile everytime some idiot proposes a new gasoline formulation. It means limited supply and higher prices. The exact same thing is true with power generation. California is the poster child for idiot laws that do more harm than good. Look into it sometime, it is sure to be worth a few laughs for you.

Nano Chris
07/02/2006, 07:51 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7663523#post7663523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I believe in beer... grain fed angus beef, pretty girls, the US military and of course santa claus and the little guy in the refridgerator that turns the light on and off when you open and close the door.

I don't beleive in laywyers, poloticians, tree huggers, or anybody that says "just wait a few months and see, I know of a secret product that is going to change the way we live".

That said... when the power cells become affordable, sign me up. That will happen about the same time that most of the morons realize that hybrid cars are a flat out waste of time and resources :) I will wait for the fuel cells or better yet the nuke cars!
Lol that is so funny i had to lmao :rollface:

mech
07/02/2006, 08:08 PM
heh, up until 200 years ago our entire infrastructure was based on capturing energy from the local environment

the ecosystem of the planet is powered by the sun and the moon(pump) able to support trillions of organisms over millions of years,

when you speak of green agendas its interesting because that's like only one side of the multi-sided dice

The largest corperations in the world have much bigger agendas, and that is keeping the $$$ flowing not electricity or oil or gold or wheat, do you honestly think that the "GREEN" agenda/lobby is more powerful than that, hehe maybe you are seeing RED

to speak of one and not mention the elephant standing in the rooms is a little weird

I could go on and on, history says - the best idea does not always win, its the the most lucrative one that w$ns...


re biodisiel: ummm wasn't diesel originally from peanut oil, so really the argument is diesel vs. petrodiesel, i agree that diesel from corn is crazy, but there are a whole lotta ways to skin a cat, there are Green agendas, and Exxon's agenda, and Corn agendas cause that's a hell of an inefficient plant to grow for power there are tons of other plants that are a lot more environmentally sound and grow very well with much less input than corn<insert corn joke here>

RE hybrids: please take your arguments to the railroad industry, they seem to be using TRUE diesel electric for almost 100 years, they must be crazy to be using it, of course then you have to ask why hybrids on the market arent true hybrids like trains? might be something to do with keeping you coming back to the service center....gotta keep the $$ flowing

in 50 years our great great grandchildren will be learning to either drive some type of electric vehicle or they will be learning to plow a field with a horse....its up to us to choose.

rsxs1212
07/02/2006, 08:11 PM
yeah i agree cost would be through the roof...like i said just an idea...allthough impractical an idea..maybe nasa could chip in after all its not like we HAVE to know if there was life on mars lol

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 08:40 PM
Mech..

You said alot.. and of course a lot of it makes sense.

However, I don't agree with the railroad analogy. One of my lifelong hobbies is railraoding. I actually enjoy it more than reefing, but simply don't have the room or money to support my habbit (My family collects American Flyer trains... lots of them)

There is a lot that goes into a locomotives design, things like tractive effort, adhesive weight and the abuse that it delivers to the rail system. Steam locos were very hard on the track due to what is called "hammer blow". Each stroke of the piston sent a huge shock wave down through the drive wheels to the track (and the the mechanical systems of the loco itself).

There are lot of reasons that all diesel locos are not used. One of the main problems is clutching. A transmisioned pure diesel loco with that much tractive effort would eat clutches for lunch. The diesel over electric is great because the electric motors are "the clutches". In addition they can apply power in a steady smooth curve without out causing wheel slip. Hammer blow is also a big problem with a direct drive diesel. Diesel electrics don't have hammer blow problems. Even in terms of straight gearing, the power transmision of a pure diesel unit was a nightmare, and they really never made it past the size of switchers. The bigger pure diesels had a lot of mechanical problems.

However the MAIN advantage is the dynamic breaking that you gain from the use of electric motors. Without the dynamic breaking a modern loco would not be able to pull the type of loads that are needed.

Are modern locos true hybrids? I guess it depends on how you look at it. But you also have to look at the cost and the reasons behind those costs (just touched on above).

In any case, a hybrid car and a GE Dash9 or AC series are worlds apart... economies of scale, size and many other factors make the comparison silly at best. Just because a certain marriage of technology makes sense for one market does not mean it can be applied to another.

A pure diesel loco is more efficient in many ways.... there is a lot of loss on the diesel over electric system. But again it is a best fit for the railroad industry.

Like I said, a hybrid car has a long way to go before it can even be looked at with an honest interest, yet the usual suspects are already touting their bliss, and of course Detroit is not going to pass up such a good deal.

mech
07/02/2006, 08:49 PM
Ohh that was cool, Id rather share info than fight!!!! I'm always down with being schooled on trains , one of my closest freinds works in the museum for The General down here in GA, thats a fun place to hang around

reef central rulez....

DaveG99
07/02/2006, 08:51 PM
I read some of this thread and now my head hurts. I am going back to reading about protein skimmers and t5 lighting!

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 08:58 PM
You may want to know that the PRIME MOVER in the AC6000 is a 16 Cylinder 6000 Horse Power 4 stroke engine... certainly not a friend to the Environment :D They are the first locos of their kind to sport AC motors.

Get the lowdown here (gives me chills standing next to a unit train pulled by a few of these, though I am still partial to the old 4-8-8-4 challengers from the steam era).

http://www.trainweb.org/csxrailfan/nov99/ac60/ac60.html

Wow... has this thread veered... I sure don't see to many solor locomotives in the future. The railroad industry is growing faster than it has in almost 75 years :)

Maybe we could have this moved to the lounge.

mech
07/02/2006, 09:04 PM
thanks for the link, awesome pictures, the engine control screen is very cool

hhehe the worlds biggest AC train is made by GE, Tesla must be rolling in his grave....

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 09:15 PM
You know Bean, you like to tout the value of any given product or technology based upon its market value. And although there is some merit to that argument, I think it overshadows the unseen value that ecological services have. Services such as air and water purification, nutrient cycling, food production, and aesthetic value are very, very expensive to reproduce. A classic example is the water filtration that the Catskill mountains provide for NY. They made the very wise and much cheaper choice of restoring the surrounding watersheds instead of spending billions on water filtration. Do you ever factor in the cost of the damage done to free services provided by nature when saying a certain product or development is more "expensive" than a mainstream counterpart?

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 09:19 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7671017#post7671017 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
You may want to know that the PRIME MOVER in the AC6000 is a 16 Cylinder 6000 Horse Power 4 stroke engine... certainly not a friend to the Environment :D
It probably is if you factor in how much it can move. I would imagine its efficiency is better than a semi.

BeanAnimal
07/02/2006, 09:50 PM
Every market or technology has pros and cons with regard to bottom line cost, convenience and environmental impact. Of course many market segments don't find a reasonable balance. I certainly do not "value" everything according to it's market value. Sadly though, "market values" are what makes the world go round.

The bully in the classroom stealing milk money is the living example. There will ALWAYS be somebody willing to prey upon those who are weaker, no matter what. Adding a "teacher" does not help, as they are flawed in the same way as the student (they are human). The same concept drives markets and cultures. Those who do not participate are certainly not immune to the effects.

None of this makes bad science or misguided activism the right thing. Modern history is pock marked with overpriced over touted environmental policy that is draining funds and resources that could be better used. The enviro weenies have squandered hundreds of billions of dollars of other peoples money in the court systems. The funny part is that the only winner is the lawyers. Yet, these folks see a bully for what it is in the classroom, yet never realize they are the same thing but with a different agenda.

Frankly this whole discussion is making me cranky (in my youth I would have taken it out on one of my hippie roomates, but alas I have grown up, and don't have hippie roomates.)...

I would much rather talk about trains and beer. If everybody grew their own hops and barley they could make their own beer, think of the energy savings. No transportation, no chemicals, no aluminum cans.. just beer!

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 09:55 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7671343#post7671343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
I would much rather talk about trains and beer. If everybody grew their own hops and barley they could make their own beer, think of the energy savings. No transportation, no chemicals, no aluminum cans.. just beer!
Well, I can't argue with that :beer:

HippieSmell
07/02/2006, 10:00 PM
I guess the bottom line is conservation is conserving, and conserving doesn't make money for the most part, yet. Carbon and sulfur dioxide trading being a rare exception. Good night everyone.

ECEKatko
07/02/2006, 10:09 PM
I love this thread, but it probably should be moved to the lounge :)

As long as we can talk about fuel cell cars, here's an interesting bit
http://engineering.osu.edu/news/archive/2006/hydrogenfuelingstation.php
of news for research. They don't say a lot about it on this website, but the refueling stations themselves are prohibitively expensive compared to the cars. Once the refueling stations can be made cheaper, fuel cell cars will be a big step closer to the market. Just a little more fun energy-related stuff :)

rsxs1212
07/02/2006, 10:42 PM
i myself have some model trains.....marklin....just thought i would throw that out there since it did come up :)

HornetMech242
07/03/2006, 12:31 AM
I knew someone in florida that would run his AC all the time and keep the TV and lights running. Just because i am sharing this does not mean i agree and he did get into troule for it. His thinking was why make your power if you can get it from the power company for olmost free. So he purchased a big magnet and placed it on the wall behind the meter. The force of the magnet somehow stopped the meter from turning but still allowed power to enter the house. I myself would never do this, the fines added up to more that what he would of spent on power.

Chris

usafa93
07/22/2006, 09:09 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7671158#post7671158 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
It probably is if you factor in how much it can move. I would imagine its efficiency is better than a semi.

That's true. Bean will confirm that modern diesel electric hybrids transport freight at least three times more efficiently than trucks (gallon of diesel per pound mile).

I dig trains also. BTW, my next car is going to be a Liberty CRD (common rail diesel). It rolls off the assembly line in Toledo, OH with biodiesel in its tank. Soybeans are far cheaper than petroleum.

PrangeWay
07/24/2006, 08:45 AM
"After all growing corn for fuel would be wasting the fresh water that mother nature rains down upon us." - comment from the first page. And a trade secret among civils & municipal service people.... Water IS more valuable than oil.

On diesel/gas-electric hybrids, with the advances in technology in this field you'll notice the military is moving towards it with their new vehicles (http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/defense/products~a3~home.cfm & http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/ddx/) This woudl hint well at were we are headed. Hybrids are more likely our future for the next 50years than hydrogen. If you've noticed the main researchers in hydrogen are petrol companies, and they use oil to make the hydrogen, not water.