CHILLER: If you have one, come on in! Few ??'s

[coralfarmer84]

I am setting up my 300 gallon tank which will have a 65 gallon sump. Would it be possible for me to use a 1/3 horse chiller or would i absolutely have to have a 1/2 horse. Also which is better inline or drop in. How much does your electric bill increase, and I've heard they are loud and cause heat issues in the room they are in. This is going in my bedroom so I need some advice. Thanks to everyone who helps me :)

[king1522]

For a 300, I would suggest at least a 1/2 horsepower. I prefer the inline, but that is the only kind I have owned. How much does it increase electric bill, hard to say. I have never researched that one. The brand and how much you spend will determine how noisey and any heat issues. I currently own two Articas by JBJ Lighting. They are very quite and do not produce a lot of heat.
Don

[steveweast]

The impact on your bill is a function of many things....

a) your local rates
b) your set up and how much heat is added through equipment
c) the temp that you want to maintain
d) outside temp....summer/winter
e) whether you exhaust the heat outside or in the same room as the chiller

But, you can thumbnail it though....assume 1/2hp.....assume your local rates are 10 cents per kwhr......assume the chiller runs half on/half off to maintain the set point. A 1/2hp chiller will pull around 13 amps.

then......cost per month = (12hr) x (.10/1000) x ( 110watts) x (13amps) x (31 days) = $53.20 per month

[coralfarmer84]

wow thats a huge jump in the electric bill, my entire setup only adds about that much to the bill already. I know thats just an example but wow. So you guys are thinking 1/2, chillers sure are expensive lol.

[steveweast]

Remember.....a smaller chiller isn't going to save you a dime.....it will draw less power...but, it will need to run longer to pull down the temp. Same with a larger unit......it will draw more power, but it will run less. It is really hard to say exactly how much your tank will require in cooling since there are so many variables.....if the chiller was running 1/3 on and 2/3 off (like mine do)....then your monthly cost would be around $35 per month......but, your cost will be in that magnitude. What you don't want is a chiller that runs 2/3 on and 1/3 off....this wears out the compressor....a 1/2hp should be OK.

[coralfarmer84]

Cool, now its time to find one on the selling forum :)

[EvilMel]

Something else to consider is the temperature of the room you are going to put it in. If you try to decrease your electric bill by having the temp up in the house, then your chiller is going to run more.

At least that's what mine was doing. We were having a problem with our air conditioner and the room was at like 80, with the chiller set to 77 (+- 1degree) and the thing was running all the time. I've got a 240g with a 1/3 HP Aqualogic inline chiller (I also prefer inline chillers btw) and it was able to keep up easily, but it just ran a lot. Now that we got the air fixed, the room is 76 during the day and 75 at night, so that's made a huge difference. It runs much less.

But really...even at 240g I am seriously considering going to a 1/2 HP chiller.

[coralfarmer84]

Thankyou for the advise. The tank will be going in my room, but it used to be a garage. For some reason it is slightly warmer than the main house. The A/C is set at 78 or 77 so I figure my room is a degree or two warmer. I'm not going to buy the chiller until i'm sure that I'll need one. But at this point i'm fairly sure, just looking for ideas, def going with an inline, just seems more effecient in my head.

[Cuby2k]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7676321#post7676321 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by steveweast


But, you can thumbnail it though....assume 1/2hp.....assume your local rates are 10 cents per kwhr......assume the chiller runs half on/half off to maintain the set point. A 1/2hp chiller will pull around 13 amps.

then......cost per month = (12hr) x (.10/1000) x ( 110watts) x (13amps) x (31 days) = $53.20 per month

Steve I think you might be off on your estimated operating cost. Assuming that power is $0.10/kWh and going with your 1/2 hp chiller ; 1 hp=750 watts so 0.5 x 750 = 375 watts/1000 = .375 kWh/hour. At 12 hours per day x 31 days x .375 kWh x$0.10 per kWh = $13.95 per month.

You had a multiplier in there of 13 amps and I am not sure where that came from.

[coralfarmer84]

now thats much better. I was going to say the chiller alone was going to be 1/3 my total bill, didn't make sense since my entire tank setup only raised my bill about 40 bucks with everything running including the MH at 12 hours a day.

[8mycash]

My chiller is a 3/4 horse artic chiller. I would run quite a bit until I installed fans in the canopy for the halides. It turns on for the last 90 minutes off and on for the last part of the day. Venting your canopy will help a lot.

[steveweast]

It comes from the label that details what the amperage draw is. Like I said, there are alot of variables.....you need to look at the specs of the particular unit that you are considering using. My PCI 1/2hp chiller that I use on my cold tank has a stated amperage draw of 13.5 amps.

EDIT: I went and looked at the label again....and it says the amp draw is 9.9 amps. So, doing the math again.... = $40.50 per month. There are really a ton a variables....the running time of the chiller being a big unknown.

EDIT #2: I poked around and found several of the 1/2hp chillers are stated to draw 9.5 - 10.5 amps....remember, the "hp" is just a name for the size chiller....it's the stated amperage draw that counts.

[BFG]

Let me contribute my 2 cents worth.

I've gotten some feedback that if you have a chiller with an external temperature probe in the main tank, it would run lesser as with a chiller with a built in temperature probe in the chiller. A member of a planted tank I moderated had made a modification of his made in China chiller and discovered it runs lesser than when it was run stock. He had engaged an electrician to connect an external temperature probe and place the probe in the main tank. I would go with this modification too when I get my made in China chiller for my new reef setup. For my part, I have a Sfiligoi chiller with an external temperature probe for my 2ft cube planted tank.

[moonpod]

I got something for you to look into. Deltec ecocooler.

[Cuby2k]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7692207#post7692207 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by steveweast

EDIT: I went and looked at the label again....and it says the amp draw is 9.9 amps. So, doing the math again.... = $40.50 per month. There are really a ton a variables....the running time of the chiller being a big unknown.

EDIT #2: I poked around and found several of the 1/2hp chillers are stated to draw 9.5 - 10.5 amps....remember, the "hp" is just a name for the size chiller....it's the stated amperage draw that counts.

Yes I agree, I see where the confusion came in. In your formula you said "(12hr) x (.10/1000) x ( 110watts) x (13amps) x (31 days) = $53.20 per month" and I think you made a typo on the 110 watts when it should have been 110 volts. We are on the same page.

Thinking about it though that still seems like a lot of power demand for a small chiller, a 4-ton house condensing unit pulls about the same amperage albeit at 240 volts which would half the demand. That puts the load equal to a 2-ton condensing unit at 110 volts.

QUESTION, have you ever put an amprobe on the power feeds to check the actual amperage used? Or does your chiller have a BTUH rating that you could share?

If I get a chance today I will try to measure the amps on my buddies chiller and report back.

Jeeze I hope I am not jacking this thread, although it seems like it fits the theme.

[steveweast]

Yes....the units should have read volts instead of watts....but, the bottom line number doesn't change. I did check the draw this morning....and it's pulling over 9amps @110v. Are you sure about the 4 ton unit ? I just checked the rating on my 5 ton house AC unit and it pulls 45 amps @ 240v. It's an older unit, but if there's a 5 ton unit out there that draws less....I'd switch it out.

[coralfarmer84]

this thread is confusing me more and more. i understand what your saying but.... if you run the A/C in the house your bill goes up a certain amount, this chiller is going to make my electric bill go up as or almost as much as my A/C is costing me. Why don't people just turn the A/C down two more degrees and that should make a difference no.. and how much more would your bill suffer. couldn't be more than 53 dollars a month i'd imagine. Anyone out there have a before and after electric bill from when they added the chiller?

[moonpod]

I'm telling you, look into a Deltec Ecocooler. It's essentially a swamp cooler. If you can externalize your "chiller" (you CANNOT have this thing indoors), you cannot beat the performance of this thing. I have the largest model and it uses about 60w and does the work of a 1/2hp+ chiller.

[steveweast]

coralfarmer.....you are confusing house AC and a chiller....that's our fault (we have two threads in one here). The reason that house AC has little to do a chiller as tanks grow is:

1) as the system volume grows larger, and the more lights, uv, pumps, etc. are added.....the more that you will have to rely upon a chiller.

2) also, as the water volume increases, it holds more heat....heat that is hard to remove from just a slightly lower ambient air temp.

To give you an example....my system is totally located in the garage and subject to outside air temps....house AC has no effect on the tank. I've had winter days when the outside temp is in single digits.....and my tank is still chiller driven. This is what happens when you're running 7000 watts of light. I'm even chiller driven at night....mostly from my 400watt uv unit. These numbers sound excessive....but, when compared with smaller tanks, I'm running less of everything per gallon of system water. This is another one of those areas where large tank reality is not just supersized small tank thinking......ie....cranking up the AC a bit will not necessarily cool the tank enough...if at all. Also, I'd rather run an applliance (AC unit) targeted right where I need it (the tank) and not have to cool the whole all the time.....of course, in my case, it wouldn't do any good anyway.

You should look into moonpods suggestion. I've heard good things about those units....although, I'm curious as to how well they will do with high pull down requirements that are necessary on some systems.

[steveweast]

Here's another example of small tank thinking with a large tank. I've seen some folks set up...let's say....a 300 gal reef in their lving room. They soon realize that their house AC can't cool the tank enough to off set all those lights for their sps.....so, they add a chiller just like they did when they had that old 55 gal tank...BUT, they place the large chiller in the same room as the tank (hey, it wasn't bad on that old 55). I've seen this done several times. You have to remotely locate large chillers. The amount of heat that they remove is enormous....and will quickly make any room feel like Vegas in August. These larger chillers need to be located outside....or at very least...have their exhaust air power vented to the outside.

[coralfarmer84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7694922#post7694922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by moonpod
I got something for you to look into. Deltec ecocooler.

Can I have a link Moonpod. I'm looking into this right now.

Thanks everyone for the advise. My tank is not going on an outside wall, but the attic is above the tank, could i put the chiller in my canopy and vent it to the attic or would that cause too much heat and make the chiller run poorly? My canopy will look like part of the ceiling so that would be easy enough to do....

[coralfarmer84]

I can't find one that is in american money and sizes... all british.

[steveweast]

Deltec is a sponsor on this site. Contact Doug at Deltec through the Deltec forum. I would not put your chiller in the hood. A chiller's efficiency is a function of how cool the air that feeds it is.... and....chillers, especially big chillers, are noisy....and....chillers need to be cleaned out with vinegar once a year to remove crap that builds up on the exchange coils. If you don't make it easily accessible, it will never get cleaned. You don't want it in the house. My tank is not on an outside wall either....I ran the supply and feed lines through the crawl. There is always a way to get it done right....you just have to find a way. No one said this is easy.

[moonpod]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=867593

Link Removed

[Cuby2k]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7697152#post7697152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by steveweast
Yes....the units should have read volts instead of watts....but, the bottom line number doesn't change. I did check the draw this morning....and it's pulling over 9amps @110v. Are you sure about the 4 ton unit ? I just checked the rating on my 5 ton house AC unit and it pulls 45 amps @ 240v. It's an older unit, but if there's a 5 ton unit out there that draws less....I'd switch it out.

Well I have egg on my face Steve, I swear I was testing a 4.0 ton unit and the amperage draw was a little over 8.0 on each leg the other day but the I just looked at the name plate and it states 13.6 amps at 230 volt and it's a 3-ton, so my bad. Still lower than what you are experiencing on your home unit (pro-rated) but it clearly shows I was off on my numbers. My apologies.

I did some checking into the efficiency ratings of small water chillers and I couldn't find where they are restricted by any government energy ratings. I know that small rooftop units and packaged window units don't fall under the new minimum 13.0 SEER rating as are residential condensing units so I assume that these small chillers don't either. That is one thing I find frustrating about these packaged chillers, they indicate the trade HP rating but neglect to indicate the BTUH rating. Unless we know that capacity there can be no fair evaluation.

I would guess that your residential unit is 10 SEER and I know that 14 SEER units are not uncommon so you could save a few bucks on your monthly electrical costs by upgrading. Whether or not it pays back the investment you wouldn't be able to say until you got a bid for the replacement cost.

My house has a 5-ton roof top unit and a 3-ton split system and the older unit is 10 SEER or less I know. To replace the unit will not pay me back on the investment for over 10 years so I am going to wait until it poops out and/or until the rooftop equipment has the higher ratings.

I wasn't able to connect with my buddy to check his 1/2 HP chiller to test the actual power use but I will and I will post the info here when I do, just FYI.

Bottom line is I agree with your numbers on the packaged chillers and it hurts!

I am not quite at the point I need a chiller but when I do I am going to buy a small window unit and provide a split titanium chiller barrel so I can place the condensing unit outdoors and get rid of the heat gain to the space. it's cost a bit more than a packaged chiller but it won't be placing the load on my home units.

BTW, I checked out the worm you had and WOW, that'l keep me awake at night for a while.

Cuby

[coralfarmer84]

All i can say now is Hopefully i can get away without a chiller... and if not then i'll have to suck it up. I have a 240 now in ohio and no chiller but sometimes when its 90 out and my family doesn't turn the AC on the temp has seen 84, but thats makes me nervous so I dont' want that to happen anymore.

Nobody with a before and after bill? Appreciate the indepth you guys are going into.

Ryan

[steveweast]

Bottom line is.....if you have a large tank, you should have a chiller. The eventual investment in the inhabtants pale in comparission to the cost of a chiller. You don't, one day, to face a heatwave (which wil come) without a chiller......which will put at risk thousands of dollars of livestock. I can understand a small tank which has a much smaller investment involved.....and could be controlled through other means......but, not a large tank which eventualy wil be housing a huge investment. Even if you don't need to run the chiller on a daily basis, it's priceless to have that insurance policy and peace of mind. Every summer, there are many threads on how the heat wiped out their tank....you don't want to be one of them. On a final note....if you're setting up a large tank....and you're concerned with the affordability of a $50 jump in the power bill.....perhaps you should re-evaluate setting up the large tank as a reef in the first place. There are going to many more monthly expenses that are more than that. Big reef tanks demand big budgets.

[Cuby2k]

Hey if you run AC in your home you are going to pay the price anyway. That heat has to go someplace and exhausting the hood into your room while trying to maintain a 75 deg ambient ain't free. Your home unit is going to be more efficient than a chiller but without it you are reducing the capacity of your home system. It is already trying to absorb the heatgain from the tank itself. I also agree that the ambient temp has much less effect on the tank temp on larger systems, where the limiting line occurs is a not the same in every situation.

If I recall Steve, you have your chiller located in your garage, right? I think that is about as good as it gets because your house AC doesn't foot the load (regardless of the amperage)(oops, sorry Steve) . My plan is to place the compressor and condenser portion outdoors but we rarely get freezing temps here so it's less of a problem in that regard.

AND very long term, I am going to build a cooling tower evap cooler similar ONLY BETTER :D than the Deltec eco-cooler. Thanks for the link moonpod. (Although I noticed it is no longer active)

[Cuby2k]

AND, one more thing, please bear with me.

Although a chiller is expensive and expensive to operate, I am completely convinced that in the effort to jerry-rig or try to skirt the issue, you will spend more in the long run.

I know that splitting a window cooler to place the condenser outdoors is going to cost more than a packaged chiller. Even if you take into account the lower operating costs.

AND, I know that building my own cooling tower evap cooler will be more costly than just plunking down the bucks for a deltec eco chiller.

AND, I have priced the costs of a geothermal cooler where the only operating costs are the pumping of the fluid but the first costs are higher still.

The bottom line is the reason I got into this hobby in the first place. Hey I like fish, but I like to eat 'em too, I don't love 'em. And I love the colors of coral and watching them grow is akin to the love of gardening or even building something. But making things work, building the thing up and tinkering is what's it's all about IMO.

And that's all I have to say about that.

:rollface:

[steveweast]

Cuby2

I have two 2hp chillers that are both located outside of the house(they used to be in my crawlspace; but, I relocated them 2 years ago to the outside where they should be). I built a little roof over them to protect them somewhat from the elements. I have two because of my fear over losing chilling capacity. One is enough to provide all my cooling needs....but, two provides the peace of mind for me. I have them set .5 degrees apart.....if the primary fails (or gets overwhelmed)....the second kicks on. I rotate which is the primary chiller every three months so that they wear evenly. I can also take one offline for a few days for cleaning and not disrupt operations. I've never been a fan of double handling the heat.....dumping heat into the house and then removing that heat to the outside seems like a waste to me. Even dumping the heat into my garage (as you suspected) wouldn't work.....there's just too much heat......the garage would become Vegas in July.

[falcondob]

My experience on my 300 gallon:

Running a 1/3 hp drop-in chiller, four - 4 inch fans in the hood, and a Medusa temperature controller.
(1) The fans reduced the amount of time the chiller had to work. (2) Vented the air under the tank (sump and fuge) to the outside. Chiller/fans ran less still and house A/C ran less.
(3) Vented air from hood to outside. Chiller/fans ran less still and house A/C ran much less.

I live in San Antonio. High outside temp and high humidity (why do I live here again?).

Lights and pumps seem to have a bigger impact on the electricity bill than the fans and chiller.

[hawaiianwargod]

Very informative thread everyone!!!

[Phantom Phish]

Has anyone found any information on the efficiency of an evaporative chiller like the Delte Eco Cooler in environments with higher outside humidity? I live in Georgia, and I'm wondering if a chiller like that is practical in our area (given fairly high summer temps and humidity), versus a more traditional refrigerant based chiller.

[hawaiianwargod]

Phantom Phish,

pm Fliger...he has one.