Is TBS worth it for small tanks?

[ClamIAm]

I have a 12 gallon tank that is freshwater right now but I am soon going to convert it to saltwater. I have always been interested in TBS rock from seeing all of the pictures on the forums, but I can't decide if it's worth it to try it out with such a small tank. The price without shipping isn't much more than what I would pay locally, but that shipping cost is pretty much the only thing making me question this decision. What do you all think?

[Fin McCoul]

I would advise against it. First, the rock that you get from TBS is not picked out by you. This means that you may get some larger pieces that you do not want. I bough a 20 gallon package and had a really difficult time aquascaping.

Next the rock is really dense. So the density affects the porus nature of the rock. You might not have the surface area that you would like for growing beneficial bacteria. While you might get a lot of rock by mass, you really get not enough surface area.

Also, you might want to think about what kind of tank you want. If you plan on keeping corals in the future, you really can only keep corals with similar lighting needs. I have VHOs on my 20 and they have been more than the corals that came on my TBS like.

Furthermore, you get a lot of life on the rock. While this might be fascinating initially, there is a perpetual die-off. There is just no way to keep all of that stuff alive, and I mean even post-cycle. While the rock looks awesome, eventually you want to focus on corals, not rock. If you maintain good water parameters, the rock from an LFS can be covered in coralline in only a few months.

Lastly, my experience has been the rock leeches a lot of phosphate. I have an awesome skimmer, I feed once a day only, I do 25% weekly water changes, I use RO/DI H2O for top off and kalk dosing and I battle PO4 to this day. Hair algae has been a problem from the begining. The only source of PO4 that I can think of is the rock.

All that being said, TBS has a lovely product if you intend to do FOWLR. But I think you could find some good rock locally and probably save yourself some money. The focus is on coral and not rock, once you make that jump you should stick to SPS species that have similar lighting needs. Corals from the Gulf and the South Pacific are not really compatible. If you stick to softies you should be happy with their product. IMO

[DiverDownBrian]

I've got "The Package" in a NanoCube 12DX ... been up since last Aug ... no prob so far

[Safir]

I have a 4G nano with a few rocks i pulled from my 46G TBS tank and think it is wonderful.

I think a TBS only nano would be cool, but may not work as well if you want to keep other stuff in there, as the TBS rocks have so much life on them already, it doesn't leave a lot of room for othe rcorals on the smaller rocks

[Jocko]

LOL, Fin McCoul... I have phosphates so it must be TBS' fault! Funny I've never had measurable phosphates EVER in my TBS tank. I have both gulf and keys rock in the tank.

All of the corals that came on the TBS rock a year and a half ago are fine under my super intense T5 lights. I have added various LPS, zoos and SPS including Acros and all live together happily. In fact the only thing I DON'T keep are softies.

I'm not trying to be rude, but it really sounds like you should look closer at your water quality instead of blaming everything on TBS.

[HowardW]

<<< You might not have the surface area that you would like for growing beneficial bacteria. While you might get a lot of rock by mass, you really get not enough surface area. >>>

Utter nonsense.....who told you that?



<<< If you maintain good water parameters, the rock from an LFS can be covered in coralline in only a few months. >>>

How can you compare LFS rock covered with a bit of coralline with TBS rock??? Not even a remote comparison.



<<< there is a perpetual die-off. There is just no way to keep all of that stuff alive, and I mean even post-cycle. >>>

Not true......having a lot of die-off is typically due to poor husbandry and not the fact that it cannot survive. There is only a small percentage of organisms that probably will not make it with proper husbandry.



<<< I feed once a day only, and I battle PO4 to this day. Hair algae has been a problem from the begining. The only source of PO4 that I can think of is the rock.

Your phosphate issue is from your daily feeding more than likely and not leaching from the rocks. Do you know that many foods (especially frozen and brine shrimp) are absolutely LOADED with phosphates? In fact, Anthony Calfo calls most frozen foods "algae rocket fuel".



<<< But I think you could find some good rock locally and probably save yourself some money. >>>

I have never seen rock at any LFS that even comes close to TBS rock.......not by a longshot, and even the 90% bare crappy rock they call 'premium' is $9.00 a lb.




<<< Corals from the Gulf and the South Pacific are not really compatible >>>

That's not true, many corals from the caribbean and south pacific are 100% compatible.

[hbn1234]

'fins' claim of having phosphates from TBS is possible. Most of the florida live rock aquaculturers get their rock from nearby limestone fields...go offshore, drops them off at their designated plot, and comes back for them a year or two later. Being from florida with ample limestone quarries, i've looked into using the limestone rock for my holding tanks. i've even had a few different sites tested for composition, and all did have quite a bit of phosphate in them.
Now, i by no means discredit TBS liverock...i'm sure they have a very nice rock, and i never tried their product before...i'm just saying that if they do use the rock from the limerock quarry(which is very likely), the rock could very much leech phosphates in the water.

[liverock]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7758939#post7758939 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hbn1234
'fins' claim of having phosphates from TBS is possible. Most of the florida live rock aquaculturers get their rock from nearby limestone fields...go offshore, drops them off at their designated plot, and comes back for them a year or two later. Being from florida with ample limestone quarries, i've looked into using the limestone rock for my holding tanks. i've even had a few different sites tested for composition, and all did have quite a bit of phosphate in them.
Now, i by no means discredit TBS liverock...i'm sure they have a very nice rock, and i never tried their product before...i'm just saying that if they do use the rock from the limerock quarry(which is very likely), the rock could very much leech phosphates in the water.

Ahhhh the old <Florida cultured rock has phosphates> rumor is hard to kill, but read here

http://www.nbizz.com/tritonmarine/upload/falls.pdf

and you will see cultured florida rock has the least amount of phosphates of ANY rock in the industry!

TBS

[HowardW]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7758939#post7758939 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hbn1234
'fins' claim of having phosphates from TBS is possible. Most of the florida live rock aquaculturers get their rock from nearby limestone fields...go offshore, drops them off at their designated plot, and comes back for them a year or two later. Being from florida with ample limestone quarries, i've looked into using the limestone rock for my holding tanks. i've even had a few different sites tested for composition, and all did have quite a bit of phosphate in them.
Now, i by no means discredit TBS liverock...i'm sure they have a very nice rock, and i never tried their product before...i'm just saying that if they do use the rock from the limerock quarry(which is very likely), the rock could very much leech phosphates in the water.



I have over 70 lbs. of TBS rock in one of my tanks and the phosphate levels are near undetectable using the very sensitive Merck testing kit, and completely undetectable on the cheaper less sensitive test kits.

Again.....tanks with high phosphates / silicates that have chronic microalgae or cyano problems are typically due to husbandry and feeding issues, but people have to blame something I guess. :)

[Fin McCoul]

<<< Corals from the Gulf and the South Pacific are not really compatible >>>

That's not true, many corals from the caribbean and south pacific are 100% compatible.

I was talking about lighting. Gulf Corals do not thrive under higher intensity lighting. The Gulf is murky, therefore species have evolved to use less light. All of the other corals in my tank are thriving, except the cup corals on TBS liverock.

I had PCs that were the original lightsource on my tank. Cup corals were open under the light. Upgraded to VHOs no polyp extension. Of course there may have been another issue that was the source of the change, but all of my other corals were fine. However, they were under MH and VHO at the LFS.

Also, I wasn't pointing a finger at TBS. However, PO4 was high from day one. That means before I stocked or fed anything. Put in H20 and measured PO4 0ppm. Put in the rock PO4 jumped almost immediatly. Does that exhaust all posibilities for a conclusive decision on my part, no. In point of fact though it does suffice to provide sufficient evidence for me.

<<< You might not have the surface area that you would like for growing beneficial bacteria. While you might get a lot of rock by mass, you really get not enough surface area. >>>

Utter nonsense.....who told you that?

Obviously I should explain my statement since it appears that my meaning was obscure. 40 lbs of rock from TBS is more dense than 40 lbs of LR from Fiji. Rock that is dense is solid. This comparison is only between the two rocks. Solid rock does not have pores running throughout the interior. While you may have surface area, the ammount of surface area between 40 lbs of Fiji and 40 lbs of TBS do not compare. Consequently, the solid core of TBS
gives you mass that does nothing. Think a block of swiss cheese vs a block of chedder cheese. Two equal blocks would not have the same density. Also, the swiss would have more surface area.

I am happy with my TBS, to a point. I do think that I spent the same sum and received a pretty good product. But do I think there are drawbacks, yes. That is a question that you need to address yourself.

[HowardW]

<<< I was talking about lighting. Gulf Corals do not thrive under higher intensity lighting. The Gulf is murky, therefore species have evolved to use less light. All of the other corals in my tank are thriving, except the cup corals on TBS liverock. >>>

Gulf rock is compatible with nearly any soft corals, zoos, shrooms, LPS corals, etc. In addition, gulf rock can and will survive long term under a variety of lighting conditions.




<<< I had PCs that were the original lightsource on my tank. Cup corals were open under the light. Upgraded to VHOs no polyp extension. >>>

That makes no sense whatsoever unless you doubled the wattage of the VHOs overnight and shocked the tank. PC lighting watt for watt is actually putting out more PAR than VHO's in many instances and a typical 65W daylight PC bulb is about equivelent to a 95W VHO bulb.



<<< Solid rock does not have pores running throughout the interior. While you may have surface area, the ammount of surface area between 40 lbs of Fiji and 40 lbs of TBS do not compare. >>>

Not all TBS rock is dense, many pieces have incredible surface area and porosity and certainly WAY more than enough surface area to support the beneficial bacteria colonies along with the sandbed and every other surface in the tank. Believe it or not.....people actually kept marine tanks successfully before people even used any type of live rock in tanks :-)

[Fin McCoul]

<<< Solid rock does not have pores running throughout the interior. While you may have surface area, the ammount of surface area between 40 lbs of Fiji and 40 lbs of TBS do not compare. >>>

Not all TBS rock is dense, many pieces have incredible surface area and porosity and certainly WAY more than enough surface area to support the beneficial bacteria colonies along with the sandbed and every other surface in the tank. Believe it or not.....people actually kept marine tanks successfully before people even used any type of live rock in tanks :-)

All of the rock I received from TBS was dense. Much more dense than Fiji.

<<<Not all TBS rock is dense, many pieces have incredible surface area and porosity and certainly WAY more than enough surface area to support the beneficial bacteria colonies along with the sandbed and every other surface in the tank. >>>

My point was not that there was not enough surface area. But many individuals rave about the weight of rock that comes in their package, when actually they would get just as much surface area in their tank with less lbs of a comprable LR. The surface area of TBS in an equal amount of rock is more than likely going to be less than Fiji.

<<<That makes no sense whatsoever unless you doubled the wattage of the VHOs overnight and shocked the tank. PC lighting watt for watt is actually putting out more PAR than VHO's in many instances and a typical 65W daylight PC bulb is about equivelent to a 95W VHO bulb.>>>

Even if I shocked my system, which I didn't, the fact of the matter is it happened. If it does not make sense maybe you should research it for me a publish a paper, because it is what happened. Also, the corals have never adjusted. They still stay closed and many have bleached, while other corals that are used to much more light than Gulf corals are doing fine.

I am just telling you my personal expieriences with TBS.

[HowardW]

<<< My point was not that there was not enough surface area. But many individuals rave about the weight of rock that comes in their package, when actually they would get just as much surface area in their tank with less lbs of a comprable LR. The surface area of TBS in an equal amount of rock is more than likely going to be less than Fiji. >>>


I guess I still don't understand your point. Regardless of whatever rock you use you're going to have PLENTY of surface area to colonize the various beneficial bacteria.......Figi, Tonga, Florida Gulf, Marshall Islands, whatever. The arguement that you get more surface area with Figi rock lb. for lb. is moot in my opinion. The advantage of buying TBS rock is that you actually get real LIVE ROCK, not a light weight rock with minimal life that's been out of water for who knows how long and probably about 90% of whatever was once on it is now long since dead or currently rotting away.



<<< Even if I shocked my system, which I didn't, the fact of the matter is it happened. If it does not make sense maybe you should research it for me a publish a paper, because it is what happened. Also, the corals have never adjusted. They still stay closed and many have bleached, while other corals that are used to much more light than Gulf corals are doing fine. >>>


I don't think I would need to publish a paper since the technical info on VHO vs. PC lighting is well known and documented and available right here in numerous threads if you do a search in the lighting forum. Also, if you had corals not opening and subsequently bleaching immediatly after changing your lighting, then you did not slowly adapt the tank to the new bulbs. PC bulbs tend to drop off quite a bit after 8-10 months or so, and replacing them all at the same time (even with new bulbs of the same wattage and kelvin) can cause problems with certain corals.

[chrisstie]

To answer the OP's question...

My first tank and the one im working on now are one in a same- a 12g aquapod.

I have plans in the near future for a 55 which I plan to order from TBS - the package is great... however..

For our 12g we just visited a few of our LFS and found LR that we really liked and could easily scape into our tank. I haven't looked at the package for a litlte tank but suspect that their cleanup crew might be too much for such a small tank.

It is very difficult off the top of one's head to see exactly how your tank will look down the road with critters and corals in it... But I would say visit your LFS first and see what feels right to you- Can you find some good colorful rock that doesn't smell? You'll probably still have a cycle from the dye off from transportation but it may be very quick (ours was cured int he store but it went by in like a week .. say in a mini cycle) and we used the live arag sand stuff to cultivate all the good stuff we need in our tank.

It comes down to personal preference - random shaped rock with random hitchikers for the adventure of finding out just what everything is - or picking and choosing what goes into your tank.


Good luck with whatever choice you make but these guys above me arguing are silly- If youwant TBS, get it, plain and simple. I love reading threads about them and hope to get my 55 up and running soon!