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reefnewbie54321
07/21/2006, 08:25 PM
After seeing Steves amazing cold water reef it really made me want to try one out. I still need to buy a few bags of ice this weekend to see how bad my tank is going to sweat but in the mean time I need to brain storm on stocking ideas. I am mainly interested in anemones and coral right now.

Pacific Condylactis Anemone's,

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/highoctane723/Condylactisanemone.jpg

From my understanding these are temperate water anemones. Any other information at what temperature they are normally found would be appreciated.

Parazoanthus Axinellae,

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/highoctane723/ParazoanthusAxinellae.jpg

Considered a form a Zoanthids but also mentioned as colonial anemones. Any information at what temperature these are found at and were they come from would be appreciated.

"Parazoanthus axinellae from the Mediterranean. A beautiful temperate species that grows freely on rocks, unlike most other members of the genus that associate with sponges and other animals that provide a position for them out in strong currents where they can catch plankton." -Julien Sprung

According to Sprungs quote they are filter feeders which may be a problem.

Strawberry Anemones,

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/highoctane723/strawberryanemone.jpg

"Corynactis californica
Diet: Copepods and invertebrate larvae.
This creature grows in colonies, somewhat like coral, but lacks a protective covering, or exoskeleton. It prefers shaded rocky areas but will also live on wharf pilings from San Diego to British Columbia.

Strawberry anemones grow to one inch in diameter and have potent, club-tipped tentacles. This animal is a favorite in biology labs because the nematocysts (tiny organs that contain a stinger) are easily seen under magnification. These animals are harmless despite the size of the nematocysts.

Reproduction is by fission; the strawberry anemone divides itself into two identical animals. Clones of the same animal have been found covering over a square meter of sea floor." I am assuming they can be fed mysid shrimp.

Tube Anemones,

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/highoctane723/tube_anemone.jpg

"Tube Anemones are often found on the muddy bottoms of Puget Sound, and Southern Puget Sound has more than it's fair share of muddy bottoms. These anemones are somewhat unique among Puget Sound anemones in that they create a hard tube that thy can retract into when threatened. Although occasionally encountered throughout Puget Sound, they seem to really flourish in southern Hood's Canal."

Not sure what there diet is but I also see these in warm water reefs so would like to confirm that these are temperate water anemones.

Swimming Anemone,

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/highoctane723/swimanemone.jpg

Scientific Name : Stomphia coccinea
"This is a fairly common anemone that may be spotted in most popular Puget Sound dive sites. This anemone's claim to fame is that it can actually kind of swim by unanchoring itself from the substrate and twisting back and forth. This allows it to escape predators (like certain starfish) and find better feeding grounds when needed. I usually find them in isolation of one another"

As mentioned in its name this is a swimming anemone and could be a problem.

Crimson Anemone,

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/highoctane723/crimsonanemone.jpg

Scientific Name : Cribrinopsis fernaldi
Not sure about much more other then it can be found in north east pacific.

Giant Green Anemone,

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/highoctane723/greenanemone.jpg

Scientific Name : Anthopleura xanthogrammica
It is my understanding that these are tidal anemones so I am not sure if these could be kept in a non-tidal system.

Beaded Anemone,

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/highoctane723/beadedanemone.jpg

Scientific Name : Tealia coriacea
Don't have much info on this ... anything would help

As for corals all I can think of is sun coral if anyone else has some ideas feel free to share.

And last I have found a link to what I believe to be a coldwater tank with some very interesting stuff that I have not seen before. The onlyy problem is the link is in another language which I'm nto even sure of. If anyone can decipher it that would be great.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.aiam.info/pic_06/antonio_zofrea/Actinia%2520Equina.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.aiam.info/05/amici_antonio_zofrea.htm&h=600&w=800&sz=304&hl=en&start=18&tbnid=E7wdV3iUZHERDM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DActinia%2Bequina%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DX

steveweast
07/22/2006, 10:27 AM
Well....you're off on an exciting new adventure.....unfortuneatly, we are doing it alone. I shouldn't say alone....just very few of us out there. The vast majority of folks out there think of cold water tanks (temerate really) as dull, colorless, boring, and expensive....of course, we know that they are just misguided. There are some cold water tanks out there....but, they are mostly just coastal, tidal, lobster-like tanks to keep a few hermits. The basic problem is : there are no cold water suppliers ....because there are no cold water tanks.....and there are no cold water tanks.....because there are no cold water suppliers.

The tanks themselves are cheaper and easier to run than their warm water brothers......but, the stock avalability is the real issue. There are a few options out there:

1) if you live on the West coast, collect your own.

2) I'm not sure about the East coast.....I don't know if they have the colorful cold water life that we have out here.

3) There are cold water species that come through the warm water trade....turbo snails red foot snails, wartah anemones, catalina gobies, some seahorses, and some Australian fish crop up on warm water lists all the time

4) Don't rule out your local fish mart. My local Japanese market has live cold water clams, oysters, shrimp, and abalone.

5) There is a cold water supplier (the only one that I'm aware of) that is located in Tasmania and will sell to the general public.... in fact, I was one of their very few hobbiest sales since they ususlly just supply public aquariums. Ordering from them is not like ordering from marine depot.....you'll have to place an order....wait a several weeks until the order ships (usually tagging along with a public aquarium order).....arrange for a broker in LA to get the critters through customs and onto their domestic flight....then pick them up at your local airport. It's only cost effective if you're ordering at least a full box....or better yet....several boxes. Here's their link...

http://www.aquaticbiodiversitygroup.com.au/


Past that....cold water is a great adventure....I've been able to keep things that are nearly impossible to keep in warm water...like oysters, mussels, and crinoids.

reefnewbie54321
07/22/2006, 03:04 PM
Thanks for all the info. I am not sure of what could be collected on the east coast but I am planning a spring vacation to california and plan to do some collecting then.

steveweast
07/24/2006, 05:04 PM
It's obvious by the no responses that we're going down a lonely.....but interesting road. Here's a new goody that I picked up yesterday from Puget Sound.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/strawberrycloseup.jpg

reefnewbie54321
07/24/2006, 05:25 PM
Wow those are nice ... although there have been no responses in this thread I did get a PM about someone who kept Giant Green Anemones in a cold water reef for a few years while it was running. I wasnt sure if I could keep them becuase there tidal but apparently he didnt have any problems. I am kinda glad becuase they were one of the eye catching cold water anemones I found.

Herpervet
07/24/2006, 08:11 PM
Steve,

Can you post a pic or link to your temperate reef?

Herpervet
07/24/2006, 08:24 PM
Just fyi: I havn't been to Monterey Bay Aquarium (sp?) and I bet it is way better but the Birch Aquarium at Scripps in San Diego has some really nice cold water displays including a couple with huge colonies of those pink colonial anemonies you guys posted pic's of.

Every time I pass by the live lobster tanks at the Meat market I think to my OCD self: "I wonder if they would sell me that system so I can set up a temperate tank"

Kudo's to you guys. The colors of temperate cnidarians are stunning.

I can still see pic's in my head of Actina aquina from my first marine invert. book I got as a kid.

P.S. a Juvi Garabaldi is a must have imo even if they are a holy terror.

GreshamH
07/25/2006, 01:58 AM
Being the Girabaldi is our state fish, you won't be doing eny legal collecting of it. What ones enter the trade, do som via Baja, Mexico.

CA F&G is very strict as what you can collect unfortunatly. Anemonies are a grey zone as their not listed in the reg book as something with a quota, but there's no mention of them being OK either.

I've kept cold water stuff myself, and have several friends that have done it over the years. In fact, I have a buddy doing it right now :D

Nice addition Steve :D

Herpervet
07/25/2006, 06:41 AM
I was pretty sure they were illegal to collect but they are available legally in the trade as I have seen them listed.

GreshamH
07/25/2006, 09:29 AM
They're legal to catch in Baja, Mexico, where they're commonly imported from.

tecoral
07/25/2006, 03:55 PM
Pretty cool thread and something Im interested in also. I have a friend up here that keeps a cold water 150 stalked with local items. Its basically a tidewater tank but very cool. He has it down now but it is so easy to get up and run. A good chiller is needed to push it down to around 45-50*. Ive seen him keep lots of different things including live King Crab waiting for the pot:D and black bass.

I plan on trying something in the future but instead of a chiller I want to try a heat exchange using buried plastic line and a good pump. Something that was deep enough to not freeze in the winter. If I can get a handle on my other projects I would be able to start. Love to see some picts of your setups.

Herpervet
07/25/2006, 04:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7809297#post7809297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
They're legal to catch in Baja, Mexico, where they're commonly imported from.

Just curious on this. Mexico is very strict these days about collecting wildlife (i.e 30 years ago you could get a permit to collect about any reptile you wanted but now it's virtually impossible to get a permit at all)

Would they allow someone to collect fish and carry them across the border? Do you know anything about the regulations on this if a person wanted to do a collecting trip?

tecoral
07/25/2006, 05:24 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7812316#post7812316 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Herpervet
Just curious on this. Mexico is very strict these days about collecting wildlife (i.e 30 years ago you could get a permit to collect about any reptile you wanted but now it's virtually impossible to get a permit at all)

Would they allow someone to collect fish and carry them across the border? Do you know anything about the regulations on this if a person wanted to do a collecting trip?

Im pretty sure you would have to go through a wholesaler/retailer that would have to order one for you. I know you cant even come back or go over with a piece of fruit so I would imagine a live fish would be out of the question. Pretty cool fish, big giant damsel. I used to see them alot growing up, we used to snorkle out at Catalina. Not sure what you could keep with it though.

Id be curious what US Customs would say. You might call them and ask. Im sure they would be familiar with Mexican regulation also, especially if you called an office on the boarder like San Diego.

GreshamH
07/29/2006, 01:15 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7812316#post7812316 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Herpervet
Just curious on this. Mexico is very strict these days about collecting wildlife (i.e 30 years ago you could get a permit to collect about any reptile you wanted but now it's virtually impossible to get a permit at all)

Would they allow someone to collect fish and carry them across the border? Do you know anything about the regulations on this if a person wanted to do a collecting trip?

Having worked for a importer whom has collected in baja for 25+ years, and knowing all but one permit holder, you asked the right person. :D

The permit system will brake a normal person, our permit has been down for 3 years. A normal person could not go collect on thier own. It's illegal, and there is no permit for such activities. In order to work, which what a permit holder is doing, you'd have to be a citizen, or be issued a working visa. You have to deal with state, federal in Mexico, and Customs/USF&WS in the states. The best way for you to get em, is via the Los Angeles wholesalers currently. There's 1 permit in Baja Sur in action.

GreshamH
07/29/2006, 01:16 AM
DP

Chaloupa
08/07/2006, 03:44 PM
link to Steve Weast's cold water tank please? THANKS!!

Cody Ray
08/07/2006, 06:48 PM
I've collected from the baja (obviously not with a permit ;) ) for my own aquarium. There are several coral species that can be found including encrusting porities, gorgonia, colonial anemonies, and inverts like sponges.

wds21921
08/12/2006, 10:16 PM
Tube Anenomes LOVE brine shrimp. I believe they also like to intake some phyto as well from what I've seen from mine. If there food source is minimal they also will take in small flatworms.

The Pacific Condylactis Anemone is zooanthalea fed (light source) to the best of my knowledge. Mine has been doing fine in 82 f - 86 f temperatures.

Herpervet
08/13/2006, 07:49 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7895949#post7895949 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Chaloupa
link to Steve Weast's cold water tank please? THANKS!!

ditto

mermin
08/13/2006, 01:35 PM
just so you know here on the east coast we have wicked colorful anemonies around cape cod and such. check into getting a basket star. they are absolutly nuts. We have a cold water tank at mystic aquarium where i work. runs at 45 degrees

JHemdal
08/14/2006, 10:47 AM
I gave a talk on temperate marines at MACNA last year - I must say that there was very little interest in the topic.

Typical conversation, Aquarist: "Oh - I see you are speaking here, whats your topic?" Me: "Temperate Marine Aquariums". Aquarist: "Anything about mini-reefs?, I just set up a 100 gallon reef" Me: "No, sorry". And then they would just sort of wander away...

I bet there was less than 50 people in the audience.


Jay Hemdal

steveweast
08/14/2006, 02:47 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7936732#post7936732 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
I gave a talk on temperate marines at MACNA last year - I must say that there was very little interest in the topic.

Typical conversation, Aquarist: "Oh - I see you are speaking here, whats your topic?" Me: "Temperate Marine Aquariums". Aquarist: "Anything about mini-reefs?, I just set up a 100 gallon reef" Me: "No, sorry". And then they would just sort of wander away...

I bet there was less than 50 people in the audience.


Jay Hemdal


That's because most folks are under the misconception that cold water systems are dull, brown, and lifeless....with a lobster tank being the zenith. We cold water keepers know that couldn't be farther from the truth......and that, cold water, is far easier, cheaper, as diverse, and possibly even more colorful than its warm water sps rival. Word is getting out.....but obtaining stock is still a limiting factor unless you're near the coast. But....it's changing.......several folks are setting up a cold tank around here. Most have just not been exposed to the possibilities and opportunities that come with a temperate system.

steveweast
08/14/2006, 02:54 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7930214#post7930214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Herpervet
ditto



I don't have a site for my cold system....but, I will add it to my warm water site when I update it. There are a few threads on this site and others that show a few pics though....you just have to search under "temperate" or "cold water"

steveweast
08/14/2006, 03:05 PM
Here's a few pics of my system that I have handy...




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/featherstar.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/corynactus.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/whiteanemone.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/redstar1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/seahorse.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/coldtanks.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/shawbox1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/gruntsculpin.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/smallbox.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/westernbluedevil.jpg

wds21921
08/14/2006, 04:07 PM
Incredible Steve ;)!!!

Ciarán
08/14/2006, 05:49 PM
Holy moley abalone! Man that is spectacular!

Most have just not been exposed to the possibilities and opportunities that come with a temperate system.

You are too right, what better way to take the pressure of the tropical reefs? I was considering setting up a large tropical set up, i am now reconsidering. Thanks so much for this epiphany! Amazing set up.

Major kudos!

finsurgeon
08/15/2006, 09:17 PM
Love your set-up Steve! I was at the Oregon Coast Aquarium last week and was extremely impressed. All of their tanks are cold/temperate and they have many impressive and colorful species that I had never encountered. I especially liked the strawberry anemones of many color variations, as well as red and pink striped, giant greens, and others. The sea pens were very cool, as were the sand dollars and the many beautiful sea stars and the bright orange "burrowing cucumber". They may have some advice for you (as if you needed any) or others. I came away impressed and excited - but some of the excitement has cooled after finding little chance of obtaining much in the way of livestock here in Texas. I will watch this thread, though, hoping to see more.

sleizure
08/15/2006, 09:45 PM
I am currently in the proces of getting my diving certification and coincidentally moving back to the west coast of canada looking forward to doing some dives. One of my major motivators for this is I would like to start up a temperate reef with a 65gallon tank that I will be bringing with me and continuing the "tropical" reef addiction on a 220. I once read a book at the bookstore of the marine life in the pacific northwest and I haven't thought the same since. Seeing this thread just motivates me more to have an open house to get this house sold :)

Herpervet
08/15/2006, 10:28 PM
Awesome stuff Steve.


Some of the fish pics are tropical right? (i.e. Box fish, Calleplesiops sp. and the trigger)

What is the bottom dwelling fish? Sea robin or gudgeon of some sort? Really unusal creature.

steveweast
08/16/2006, 01:12 AM
There's no trigger.....just the white bar box, the shaw's box, catalina gobies, the western blue devil, a few perch, seahorses, and the grunt sculpin. The fish are not tropical...they come from the temperate waters of southern Australia (the grunt sculpin comes from Puget Sound though). I've corresponded with one of the collectors over there in Perth....and their temps are around 58 -62.....so....I keep my cold tanks a little cool for the fish....but a little warm for the Puget Sound stuff....which would perfer temps at 50.....but tolerable for all. Some of the fish that I have do sometimes come through the warm water trade....but, they are really temperate animals and will only last a few months at warmer reef temps.

Herpervet
08/16/2006, 06:45 AM
Thanks for the info Steve. I have always felt that collectors should give some basic data when they sell creatures. (depth, temp, etc) so we can match their requirements.

JHemdal
08/16/2006, 07:59 AM
Herpervet:

It is more like the retail dealers that ought to be doling out the information - the collectors are just too removed from the final consumer. I see those temperate Australian marines being sold as tropicals all the time, and I agree with steveweast, they burn out rather fast. I typically use a maximum of 72 degrees F. for these fish, with a target of 68 and a minimum of around 64. Because the physical ranges of these fish varies through temperate Australia, not all the species have exactly the same requirements. For example, moonlighters, talma butterflyfish and stripeys will do fine up to at least 78 degrees. Ornate cowfish are more stenothermic and really don't do well outside of the low 60's.
TFH just published a book of mine, "Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques" that (in part) covers the husbandry of many of these temperate species - including some really nice temperate Japanese species. My MACNA talk mentioned above was derived from that - I just hope the book sells better than might be indicated by the attendance at that talk!

Jay Hemdal

steveweast
08/16/2006, 09:51 AM
My conversation with the white bar collector was very enlightening......basically, he collects in the temperate waters off of Perth.....the fish are flown 3000 miles away to a distribution point in the city Cairnes (which is a warm water port on the warm Coral Sea).....the fish are then distributed to the US. Our wholesalers buy the fish thinking that they are from the Coral Sea.....ie....that they are warm water.....the misinformation then gets passed down the line to the hobbiest. Everytime a few of the white bars hit the US wholesalers, I get an email about their care since mine is on my website. The hobbiests are always surprised to find out that they are cold water and will last only a few months in the warm water. They are then angry that their online sourse or LFS didn't tell them that the fish is cold water.....the fact is....they may not have known since very few cold Australian critters make it into our market each year.

Herpervet
08/16/2006, 12:09 PM
The same kind of things happen in the reptile trade. Unless you are buying directly from the collector you can get misinformation or simply error my omission.

BTW, I have visited your site on numerous occasions and I must admit I thought the whitebar boxfish was in your tropical reef because it was on the front page.

You might want to include a statment or something to help folks from making a sad (and very expensive) mistake.

I have had that fish in the back of my mind for a while and had considered ordering one mainly because it's beauty is indellibly etched on my brain from looking at your site.

(PLEASE Don't take offense as I have nothing but admiration for your skill's and success as a hobbyist.)

P.S. Is that a feather star/Crinoid? How long have you had it and what are you feeding?

steveweast
08/16/2006, 05:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7951471#post7951471 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Herpervet
The same kind of things happen in the reptile trade. Unless you are buying directly from the collector you can get misinformation or simply error my omission.

BTW, I have visited your site on numerous occasions and I must admit I thought the whitebar boxfish was in your tropical reef because it was on the front page.

You might want to include a statment or something to help folks from making a sad (and very expensive) mistake.

I have had that fish in the back of my mind for a while and had considered ordering one mainly because it's beauty is indellibly etched on my brain from looking at your site.

(PLEASE Don't take offense as I have nothing but admiration for your skill's and success as a hobbyist.)

P.S. Is that a feather star/Crinoid? How long have you had it and what are you feeding?


No offense taken.....you're absolutely correct. I've had my white bar for a little over 2 1/2 years now....in fact...it was that fish that put me on the road to cold water reef keeping. I kept him in my warm water reef's refugium for about 6 weeks while I readied his cold tank. His colors improved so much when he finally got back into cold water. When I update my site, it will include a complete section on the cold water system......I keep waiting until I'm completely satisfied with the cold tanks before updating the site. I never thought my having the white bar on my site would pose a problem since VERY few are ever imported into this country...but....recently there have been a few and it could pose a problem.

The crinoid came to me as a filler in a box of Australian fish....I never ordered him....but, he's now 2 years old and is doing great with new growth. I don't feed him directly...but, the tank in general is heavily fed with mysis, krill, rotifers, cyclopeeze and I always bring back live plankton from my dive trips.

WarrenG
08/25/2006, 11:35 PM
Great photos!

I've done a fair bit of diving in CA and most of the invertebrates seem to thrive in water with lots of plankton in the water (a main reason the visibility is only 20-30% of what's found in tropical locales) . How do you provide this much food for the animals in your tank without creating problems from all the food going in the tank?


NOT colorless and bland...
http://www.usvh.com/Monterey.html

2fishy
08/25/2006, 11:47 PM
Wow! Those are awesome pictures!

steveweast
08/26/2006, 07:12 AM
There is no doubt that theses critters demand alot of food. I feed them five times a week. I'm under no illusion that the cold water tank's water quality is as good as in my sps reef.....but with a powerful slimmer and frequent large water changes....it isn't that bad either.

AcroSteve
08/30/2006, 06:32 PM
Steve, those tanks looks great.

Do you have any plans on putting them in your house someplace? Or is it destined to remain in your sump room?


And, any particular reason for the two seperate tanks?

steveweast
08/30/2006, 08:29 PM
someday I might set up a real cold water display tank in the house.

There are two tanks because a few things are not compatable with large cold water anemones....like seahorses and small box fish.

reefez
08/30/2006, 11:36 PM
Stunning photos Steve!:eek2: So what are the main things you perform as far as husbandry on this tank? Weekly water changes? Do you need to supplament Ca? Man I have a thousand questions! How many gallons is the tank? And how long have you had it running? Is the thickness of the acrylic to keep the sweating down to a minimum? Sorry for the flood of questions but sheesh! This could be the beginning of a revolution:thumbsup: Are all of the creatures non photosynthic? Thanks for all your help..

Rob

steveweast
08/31/2006, 06:50 AM
1) the vast majority of cold water critters are non photosynthetic...there are a couple of tidal anemones out there that are somewhat photosynthetic ....but, that's about it.

2) Husbandtry is no different than warm water tanks.....except that there's no coralline algae to deal with. I water change around 50% once a month.

3) My total system....tanks and sump...is about 180 gals.

4) he syem has been running for about 18months now.

5) the 1" acrylic is indeed to prevent sweating.

6) There are no calcium additions necessary since there are very few stonies in cold water. The only stonies that I have are a type of tubastrea....and oysters. I do run my top off water through a kalk reactor to help with pH though.

reefez
08/31/2006, 11:32 PM
Thanks For the info Steve. That is yet another amazing tank!

latazyo
09/01/2006, 08:55 AM
anyone who thinks temperate tanks are dull is crazy

steveweast's tank has some of the most amazing creatures and fish I have ever seen

that is awesome

steve,

are those all things you can see off the coast of PAC NW?

steveweast
09/01/2006, 09:31 AM
Most of the fish and some of the starfish are from the temperate regions of Australia.....everything else is from Puget Sound.

bboyin4lyf
09/02/2006, 09:08 AM
steveweast: abosuletly amazing to say the least.

Im from melbourne (southern australia where steve's fish are collected from) and dive frequently. The colours of the sponges and invertbrate life out does the great barrier reef any day of the week. The fish biomass isnt as great but the diversity is incredible. The main issue with temperatre species is that many of them are endemic to certain areas making there collection difficult to say the least whereas many reef species can be found in a variety of locations.

bboyin4lyf
09/02/2006, 09:10 AM
Also,

Check out this link for an example of some of the macro life we encounter down here. This was taken about 5 minutes from my house :)

http://www.sims.monash.edu.au/staff/klynch/MONUC/BlackRock/index.html

reefez
09/04/2006, 08:19 PM
I love the tidepool areas along the Oregon Washington coast. The green and purple tidal anenomes and starfish. Are the tidepool creatures we see on the PNW coast able to be in your tanks Steve? It looks like the majority of your livestock is from the temprate regions off of Australia.

GreshamH
09/05/2006, 12:06 AM
All his anemones are from the PNW, and at least the grunt. All the PNW nearshore critters are just fine for this :D

steveweast
09/05/2006, 09:15 AM
Only some of my fish and a couple of stars are from Australia..... the majority of the tank's critters are from Puget Sound and include anemones, rocks, plants, oysters, fish, stars, barnacles and nudibranchs.

jgarrison
09/11/2006, 08:48 PM
If you have a chance go the quebec city aquarium they have a huge cold atlantic tank.

gastone
09/24/2006, 11:36 AM
Steve,

what do you use to maintain the required temp?

Garrett.

steveweast
09/25/2006, 09:05 AM
just a 1/2 hp Pacific Coast chiller. It runs about 20 minutes....then off for about an hour in summer.

coldwater reef
10/01/2006, 03:45 PM
I can supply coldwater flora and fauna from the puget sound...contact me if you want stuff.

steveweast
10/01/2006, 07:42 PM
Are you Will ? if so, good to see you here. Ryan and I are looking forward to hooking up with you again at Skyline, Burrows, Deception, or Neah....I could use a few more little things.

coldwater reef
10/01/2006, 10:14 PM
Yeppers Steve I'm Will. I finally got the bugs worked out and my coldwater reef is up and running complete with live rock and 3 warbonnets (nugator) so far. I'll have the boat up and running here this week. Also I have ordered a few items which will make collecting real quick and easy.

steveweast
10/02/2006, 08:51 AM
Welcome Will....I would like to see your system on my next trip up there....which should be soon. I'm looking to catch a few warbonnets and grunts if I can find them....but, what I really want are more strawberries like the ones I posted on the first page....those came out of Neah Bay. If you see a second source, let me know. Neah will be a PITA in winter.

coldwater reef
10/02/2006, 12:29 PM
Hey Steve what's PITA mean?
Anyhow, yes come on up. I think DP would have plenty of strawberries. DP is one of those places where I like to dive with a group. Hope to see you up here soon!

steveweast
10/02/2006, 09:01 PM
PITA = pain in the (rear end).....The last time Jeff and Rob were at DP, there were only small brooding anemones (which kinda look like strawberries)....no true strawberries were seen. I hope that they are there.....but were just missed.

boomsticks
10/03/2006, 12:36 PM
I think this thread is great! I have had a Temperate/Cold system up for about 5 months now. All started when I saved a "baby" lobster from three seagulls. Now I have a winter flounder, hermit crab (the only one who surrvived the wraith of the rock crab), mummichog or saltwater minnow, and a rather large lobster (He eats alot and has molted once already!) I live in NH by the seacoast so there isn't much choice to take here, no strawberry anems or anything like that, but there still is some neat stuff...gotta be careful with a jerk for a lobster! LOL.

coldwater reef
10/12/2006, 12:47 PM
Well folks, I went down to the marina the other night and collected a dozen coon striped shrimp and a couple metridium anemones. Everything made it into the tank just fine and after an hour of observation I went to bed. I woke up at about 3am to a strange noise from the fishroom. SO I go check it out to find a clogged overflow. Half of the shrimp had found their way into the overflow during the night and got stuck. I had to crawl under the stand and disconnect the hose and clear the overflow. The shrimp in and of themselves were not the problem however. A medium sized snail plus the shrimp is what did the job. Needless to say I was a little irritated! Anyhow, everything is back in order, I'm working on some way to make the system fail safe. For the moment however, no more large shrimp!
Today I'm planning a shore dive in the burroughs channel along the north shore wall, I'm after a grunt sculpin or two, plus whatever else catches my attention down there. Maybe a small octopus would be cool. I'll report on that afterwards....

acroboy
10/12/2006, 01:39 PM
To me there is nothing more interesting than keeping native marine aquaria no matter where one lives. Catching and keeping has so much more to it than going to a shop and just pointing to livestock. I think most people don't keep temperate aquariums because of the cost of chilling the water. Though the cooler water fish are so interesting and unusual.

DrBegalke
10/12/2006, 01:46 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8327749#post8327749 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by acroboy
To me there is nothing more interesting than keeping native marine aquaria no matter where one lives.

I wonder what I can catch here in the Sonoran Desert? Maybe some fossils? LOL. Great thread, someday I will set up a cold water system.

acroboy
10/12/2006, 01:52 PM
theres always the rivers

coldwater reef
10/12/2006, 03:03 PM
The Puget Sound has some really interesting life in it, there is more biodiversity here than anywhere else so I've heard. The fish aren't as colorful as the tropicals, but make up for it with their unusual appearances and habits. The inverts, such as anemones etc., I would put up against all the tropical reef animals! Another plus point is that I get to combine scuba diving with aquaria, the two things really go together. Trying to get out for a dive today.
People always seem to balk at the cost of a chiller, however all in all, a chiller is less expensive than is a lighting system for a tropical reef tank. I got a few deals and made some of my own stuff, but all in all I've set up a 100 gallon coldwater system for less than $1,000 total. I've got much more than that in my tropical setup. Another thing is stocking the tank, free for me, if you don't count the cost of my dive gear for coldwater diving. Anyhow, once you have the gear, going for a dive costs less than 5 bucks, and in one dive I can collect lots and lots of things. It's like going to the fish store and getting all you want for free...

acroboy
10/12/2006, 05:03 PM
I know exactly how you feel. We do get Caribbean tropicals from the Gulf Stream as well as temperate species as well. Now with the addition of lionfish it like a free for all. But the personality of the temperate fish is unrivaled. Seahorses for those of us who have had the experience and time to care for them were like going out and picking weeds. They were everywhere. There is so much more to fish keeping then color.

steveweast
10/12/2006, 06:52 PM
Good Luck Will. I'd like to get up there with you and catch a few more grunts for my system in the near future. I also heard from Jeff that there are baby king crabs this time of year....you know, the box looking crabs that are related to king crabs. The babies are the size of a quarter and bright red. I'm trying to get to Seiku maybe next week sometime.

coldwater reef
10/12/2006, 08:46 PM
Thanks Steve...I just wrote up a collection report for the coldwaterfish group. For everyone else, well I didn't get any grunt sculpins but the cnidaria were good. Yes I know about the puget sound king crab, lopholithodes mandtii I believe it's called. I have found them before. They aren't too common, I'd feel really lucky to get one. I know where I can find the larger ones but we want the juveniles. Anyhow let me know when ya'll want to come up so I can have the skiff ready...

skylsdale
10/12/2006, 10:39 PM
Hey Steve, what nudibranchs are you managing to keep successfully? I've researched a few, but all the ones available in the Sound seemed to have some pretty specific diets, and I was worried wouldn't be able to be sustained all that well in a captive system.

steveweast
10/13/2006, 09:46 AM
I've only tried two. I generally avoid nudibranchs as I do in my warm water reef. The first one I tried was a yellow nudibranch (archidoris odhneri) that I see mostly on kelp plants. Well, they did not fare too well since a few of my starfish thought they were candy. The second nudibranch that I tried was dirona albolineata. It's a beautiful nudibranch that has been doing ok for about six months now. I'm sure it's probably feeding off of the bryozoans in the tank. I've read that they also feed off of small snails....which I have many of. Here he is :




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/whitenudi.jpg

skylsdale
10/13/2006, 11:06 AM
Thanks for the info. If you happen to find and try some Hermissenda crassicornis, I'd be interested to hear if your starfish leave them alone (I think fish tend to stay away from them).

ReefRascals
10/13/2006, 03:27 PM
Tagging. Great dialog guys!

steveweast
10/13/2006, 03:32 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8333671#post8333671 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by skylsdale
Thanks for the info. If you happen to find and try some Hermissenda crassicornis, I'd be interested to hear if your starfish leave them alone (I think fish tend to stay away from them).


I wouldn't mind trying a Hermissenda crassicornis .....there is no better looking nudi out there. They are out there though....I just haven't come across one yet. Hey Will, where are they most likely found ?

DrBegalke
10/13/2006, 03:58 PM
That nudibranch is awesome! I better unsubsribe this thread before I spend half of my medical loans on a cold water system!

Dale Carlisle
10/13/2006, 08:23 PM
Tagging along fellas

I'm just putting the final touches on my fishroom in the garage. I plan to set up a tidal zone tank. I am currently weaving my way through the Fed./Prov. bureaucracy re collecting livestock :lol:
Ordinarily I'd just do my thing but a lot of others want to know what the rules are as well so.. I'm the guinea pig.
I see that you guys are running chillers with the intention of maintaining constant coldwater temps. What are your thoughts on an ambient temp tank (My garage runs from lows 40's in winter to mid 60's in summer). I've researched the annual surface temps off our coast and they closely match those #'s. (Keep in mind that I plan a tidal zone tank). I'm planning a fairly large set up and I think running ambient temps will reduce humidity concerns plus reduce my energy input.
I'll try to edit in some links I've found on the subject.

Species list (http://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/projects/msap/PS/masterlist/index.html)

Lighthouse temps (http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sci/OSAP/data/SearchTools/Searchlighthouse_e.htm)

coldwater reef
10/13/2006, 08:42 PM
Hi Dale...I'd run a chiller just to take the edge off in the summer, but with just tide zone critters I'd say ambient would be just fine. I'm dawn in Anacortes, Wa. so I have pretty much the same climate. I run a 1/2 Hp chiller on a 100 gallon tank and with the insulation I added the chiller runs about once or twice an hour keeping a 55F temp. Most of my livestock is from 30'-100' depths, so I can't have it be too warm.
Sorry about the bureaucracy...I'm working on that one myself. I figure that for personal aquaria that as long as it isn't a game species or threatened/endangered there shouldn't be a problem. But of course the USA and Canada have different regs...

acroboy
10/13/2006, 08:48 PM
Dale I think that is great. I just did the same thing. I have an airconditioning vent from one of my central air units from the main house put in for summer and I have natural gas piped in from the house that is going to a small modine heater that will be on a thermastat, for winter. I insulated the heck out of the garage since it was new construction, So it should hold the heat well. I also painted it with 3 coats of mildew resistant paint for the humid conditions.

acroboy
10/13/2006, 08:52 PM
Just got back from collecting myself. It is so weird to see grouper in New York In October! Plenty of blennies, 1 inch toadfish and a few urchins. Pretty quiet tonight.

coldwater reef
10/13/2006, 09:58 PM
grouper in NY??? Odd.

coldwater reef
10/14/2006, 01:17 PM
Here are a few pics of my recent aquisitions. They aren't that good but I'll be improving my photography soon.

coldwater reef
10/14/2006, 01:47 PM
ok I'm having trouble with the pics...I'll take a break before I go into neanderthal mode...

acroboy
10/14/2006, 02:20 PM
Coldwater,

Grouper is just the start. We had hundreds of voltan Lionfish this year. I have too bright red cardinal fish, Bigeye orange filefish, lookdowns, goatfish, cowfish, bluespot corronetfish, feather blennies and so on. Caribbean fish were so abundant in New York until the end of this month that it is amazing, and I don't even dive.

coldwater reef
10/14/2006, 02:52 PM
Amazing! So what's the water tempurature there? I'm wondering if a lionfish would do well in a temperate aquarium.
When I was in Bristol Bay, Alaska salmon fishing I took temp. readings, up there it was in the mid 60's!
Anyhow I'm trying to figure out how to post some pics of my tank...

acroboy
10/14/2006, 08:43 PM
Ive caught them in temps as low as 68

coldwater reef
10/14/2006, 10:11 PM
I keep my stuff at 55F, so too bad. I know I was just dreaming anyhow.

skylsdale
10/15/2006, 09:37 AM
Dale, I agree with what's been said: a chiller would help keep things just a bit lower during the summer, however, if you stick with animals from the intertidal zone and pools that you can easily collect yourself, they'll be more resilient to those temps (keep in mind, when the tide comes back in, all those 'warm' pools get a huge flush with nice COLD water, so they're obviously not existing in those higher temps for a few months, but just certain temporary times during the day).

coldwater reef
10/15/2006, 12:15 PM
Well said skylsdale that was what I was trying to get at but failed to articulate.
By the way everybody, christmas tree anemones are NOT compatible with warbonnets, neither are metridiums. However, rose anemones are!!! I have a bonded pair warbonnets and a lone female, They came up from 75' with some live rock horse barnacle clusters...they still have their original home. They've adapted quite well to their new home and cruise around the tank together when they think I'm not looking. That bad part though is that anemones are on their food chain. By chance I noticed that they had totally eaten a small medtridium...So here's my plan-down in the marina a 3 minutes drive from my house there are gazillions of little metridiums. I'll harvest a hundred or so of the smallest and place them around the area where the warbonnets live. The chrismas tree anemones will be at the far end of the tank and out of sight, out of mind I hope. One thing for sure though is that the rose anemones aren't being bothered, they're open all the time and really colorful. If worse comes to worse I'll have to plumb in another tank, I already have the capacity. My chiller can handle another 200 gallons :) and I really like the warbonnets. I'm out of the diving until further notice, the seals on both my drysuits need replaced :( Anyhow I've got some really beautiful christmas tree anemones if anybody wants them...

skylsdale
10/15/2006, 01:48 PM
coldwater, have you had longterm success with metridiums? For some reason I thought they tended not to do well longterm in a captive system (not able to supply enough food without turning the water to garbage).

coldwater reef
10/15/2006, 02:22 PM
never tried them long term. Like I mentioned I get them fro the marina so they must be pretty hardy coming from that nasty water there. Y'know they can live up to 800 years so they must be tough. What I'd do is target feed with fine chopped fish such as silversides. I seem to have good luck with inverts.

Dale Carlisle
10/15/2006, 11:38 PM
Good point skylsdale. I'm gonna have to chew on that.
I'm going to try running ambient temps. The fact that not many people have these systems intrigues me. Worst case scenario I'll have to plug a chiller in but I'm as interested in the design model as I am in the aesthetics, if you know what I mean.
My goal is to try and create a low energy input system. One main external pump, gravity feeds, simple lighting and no/limited temp control. I'm interested in the design as an economic way to create a large system down the road. I'd also like to get back to basics and stop being so reliant on increasingly complex systems and devices that I have to buy instead of build as is the trend in tropical reefing at the moment.
A question.
Who is or isn't using tropical origin live rock? What experiences did you have when adding it to cold water (die off, re populating etc...)?

jeremai
10/16/2006, 12:14 AM
coldwater reef, I sent you a PM a while back, before I joined the Yahoo group. I have a 10g tank that could do with some small anemones, if you've got any lying around. ;)

reefworldaq
10/16/2006, 08:28 AM
Very interesting and beautiful tank. Does anyone know the supplier from puget or australi. I'm from Indonesia, maybe the supplier in here. Thank's

skylsdale
10/16/2006, 10:08 AM
I totally understand where you're coming from Dale, and am not suggesting against it at all...but am wondering if sustained exposure at those warmer temps might cause some illness or die-off with some of the inhabitants you might get. I think sticking with animals that you get out of the pools toward the top of the intertidal zone will be your best bet as they get the most exposure and will most likely be able to handle it the best.

As for the tropical liverock, I think you'll get quite a bit of die-off. You might have some fauna that will survive, but personally, I would go with completely site-specific rock from near you to get all the inverts and creatures that are from the same area (there are PLENTY of shrimp and worms and 'bugs' in this part of the Pacific). Another thing to keep in mind is disease transmission--if you ever decide to remove or release something from your coldwater system and it's possibly been exposed to some sort of tropical 'nasty'...not a good thing. For that reason I would stick solely with native rocks and materials and animals, just to prevent any sort of cross-contaimination.

coldwater reef
10/16/2006, 08:26 PM
There's a lot of native live rock with pinl coralline algae encrustation which looks good...and you can collect it yourself :)
With the warm temps I'd expect diatom bloom. I'd really go with a chiller Dale.

keefsama2003
10/18/2006, 07:16 AM
Do you guys need special permits to collect in Neah or do you guys go out with the natives in that area?

my wife is native and her family is from neah bay so shes up there alot and if you need anything let me know i can get her to make a few call.

steveweast
10/18/2006, 09:02 AM
IMO....3 pieces of equipment are mandatory in keeping a coldwater reef.....

1) a insulated tank/sump....ie. thicker acrylic (if only a little thicker)

2) a chiller.....for the reasons discussed above.

3) an oversized skimmer. The feeding necessary for most cold invertebrates rapidly degrades water quality.

My skimmer does a great job at removing waste....but, NO3 build up is still a problem. As a result, I'm also going to add an S- denitrator on my system. Between the fish and high amounts of food fed to the anemones, I have to water change twice a month to keep NO3 below 20ppm. The local Puget Sound rock is like granite rocks.....little, if any, significant dentrification is taking place. Coldwater reefs are really closer to warm water fish only systems in operation.... where NO3 becomes a problem. I knew that NO3 was going to become a problem I just didn't know as to what extent. The reactor should eliminate any NO3 build up betweem monthly water changes.

coldwater reef
10/21/2006, 05:10 PM
I guess I meet those criteria Steve...my wet/dry filter and skimmer are oversized for the tank. Reminds me though, I'm due for a water change here in the next couple days. One of my new additions is an RO filter, it makes things easier on me and the critters I think.

acroboy
10/22/2006, 09:12 PM
New york city caught horses and a New York caught cardnal, Natives are great!

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=189305&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=189306&papass=&sort=1&size=medium&thecat=500

coldwater reef
10/23/2006, 09:59 AM
NY city?!? I thought it was so polluted that not even microbes could survive....

acroboy
10/23/2006, 10:03 AM
there are so many tropicals from Brooklyn NYC to Long Island it's amazing!!!! July thru october is like walking through a pet shop on a shopping spree.

But I think I still love the 1" searobbins best

DrBegalke
10/23/2006, 11:54 AM
Seahorse from NY? That's pretty wild.

acroboy
10/23/2006, 12:04 PM
They have been here for ever. There are millions of them

coldwater reef
10/26/2006, 06:12 PM
40% water change today...the critters will like that :)

invincible569
11/09/2006, 05:34 AM
Steve, how long do you leave your lights on for during the day?

steveweast
11/09/2006, 10:01 AM
About 10 hrs....but...they are just a few T-5s. Nothing in the tank is photosynthetic (except my kelp plant and eel grass) I run the lights opposite of my main tank so that I can work on my warm tank by day and my cold tank by night.

redwinger02
11/11/2006, 12:59 AM
Steve could you provide more of a detailed layout of your setup as far as equiptment? I am severelly thinking about the possibility of this but am in the intial planning/reasearch phase of this. The main problem I have found as you state is the availability of livestock. Which your link helps tremendously.

steveweast
11/11/2006, 11:21 AM
The setup is very basic. It's just two tanks with a common sump. There's a 1/2hp chiller, a skimmer in the sump, a single return pump, a Tunze in each tank for water movement,a few T5's over each tank, and a sulfer NO3 reactor. Cold water tanks do bring a few challenges besides finding stock though....


1) sweating......this can be eliminated by using a thicker tank/sump acylic of at least 1/2" (my tanks and sump are 1")......don't use glass.

2) most of the animals are non photosynthetic........so heavy feedings are required but on the plus side....no lighting is required.

3) NO3......because of the heavy feedings, NO3 will build up. Cold water rocks are dense and provide no dentrification. NO3 needs to be delt with by means of frequent water changes or a NO3 reactor. I've noticed some critters (like corynactus) are negatively affected at a NO3 level above 15ppm.

4) your arm gets really cold when cleaning the tank.

redwinger02
11/12/2006, 08:00 PM
Thanks Steve. What about the cost of importing livestock? I would imagine that most of the cost associated with livestock would be in the shipping. I know you collect most of yours off of the puget sound but have also had some imported. Would you mind elaborating on roughly how much a order from where you order from would run?

steveweast
11/12/2006, 09:34 PM
There is an outfit in Tasmania that supplies most of the public aquariums with temperate stock....but, they will sell to the public too. The cost really depends upon the items ordered....I'm mean you could have a box of $2 snails or a box of $500 fish. The shipping per box to LA runs I'd say around $100 per box (could be less if the order is large and there's a break from the airline).....then there's the domestic shipping which is around $75 per box (again dependant upon the volume).......then there's the agent's fee who accepts your shipment in LA, gets it through customs, and puts it on a domestic flight to you (lets say another $50 per box).

These are just ballpark averages....it really is only cost effective when you can attach your shipment with one going to a public aquarium in the USA......you could do your small shipment seperately; but, the shipping costs will turn that $100 boxfish into a $400 boxfish. By attaching your shipment to a larger shipment, your portion of the international shipping is way less since you're receiving a volume discount without having the volume. I've had a pending order with them for a few small things (maybe one box) for over six months now while awaiting a big order to be finalized that the Shedd aquarium is slowly putting together.

Lpabsolute
11/13/2006, 04:53 PM
steveweast - Beautiful Tank/Pics

melsteve
11/18/2006, 10:05 PM
I( am a tempertae fish collector in Australia and have most of the fish etc Steve has on our stock lists it would be good to see more tanks like this as they are very preety and if done right with temp etc most temperate animals are very hardy indeed.
Well done to some one doing their homework and giving the animals the right enviroment to thrive in
Regards Steve:)

oregonanenome
11/22/2006, 10:05 PM
Steve W.- I saw the pics of your tank and I am very impressed. I'm from Eugene OR and am a teacher. I want to get a tidepool going in my classroom. Do you think tide organisms will survive in a non chilled system? If no, what would be a "sustainable temp.?" We can't really afford a 1000 dollar chiller in my middle school classroom. But we could make a diy chiller from a dorm fridge or something.

steveweast
11/23/2006, 12:44 AM
You really need a chiller for Puget Sound critters. I wouldn't go above 55 F for their long....or even short....term health. PCI (in Woodburn) makes a good 1/2hp chiller for around $700 retail. Maybe they could sell to you at wholesale or even donate a chiller. They also rebuild chillers there too....maybe they have a rebuilt one that they could get to you cheap/free. I would contact the owner there . His name is Steve Weeks. I know....similar to my name....but not the same.

diving4 you
11/23/2006, 05:31 PM
May I start by saying you have an impressive system. The pics. are incredible saying the least. I have a few ques. and i will keep them brief.
1. What temp. ranges do you consider cold/ temparate vs. tropical.
2. you mentioned that cold water species are less photosynthetic and require heavy feeding is nescesary, What do you use for feeding? (Anenomes,and invertibrates inperticular)
3.could you give me a brief descrip. of a tank that would be ideal for a tidel pool enviroment?
4. could you give me a brief description of your filtration system. (the system in the pic.)

************THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME*****************

steveweast
11/23/2006, 11:26 PM
1) Tropical.......greater than 76

Temperate.....between.....65 to 75

Cold Less than 65

That's just my opinion though.....temperate and cold are used interchangeably it seems.... probably since so few colder hobbiest tanks are out there.

2) Feeding consists of mysis, plankton that I collect, scallops, clams, cyclopeeze, oyster eggs, and brine.

3) Tidepool....shallow tank kept at 55 F or below. Cold critters are very hardy except for anemones which don't like nitates above 15ppm. These tanks really have few requirements beyond temp.

4) Water flows from tank to sump....there are some bioballs in the overflow.....a skimmer is in the sump....one return pump returns water from the sump to the tank via the chiller. I have a single Tunze pump in each tank for circulation.....that's it. Oh, I recently hooked up a sulfer denitrator to help with nitrate control.

Dale Carlisle
11/24/2006, 12:56 AM
Jumping back in...

I've been working on the system for a while and thought I'd share a bit. This system really has two themes: West coast tidal zone and Do it yourself. I've taken to refering to it as the "Hoboreef" (living by thrift and not tied to convention).

First I had to build the room

Before:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2223.jpg



http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2220.jpg

and after:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2464.jpg


http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2466.jpg

Positioning the 135G. display and 50G. sump (the white standpipe in the display was just used for test filling)

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2489.jpg

An early schematic of the fishroom:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/garagefishroom5.jpg

and an updated version:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/fishroomfinal.jpg

Dale Carlisle
11/24/2006, 01:30 AM
For substrate I'm using a Target product called Blue Diamond 20-50 grit:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2662.jpg

and for superduper lighting I'm going for an IKEA pendant with a screw in Coralife 50/50 CF:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2664.jpg

I've built a DIY 5G. water bottle biofilter that operates solely via the syphon effect (no pumps). I never thought I'd say this but I need more bioballs!:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2686.jpg

and a DIY 5G. water bottle skimmer:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2563.jpg

Here's a schematic of the system:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/135schematic.jpg

and a shot of the back so far (no surge tanks yet). The submersible return pump and line are temporary and will be switched out for an in line model. I'm probably going to switch the sump itself as I want a narrower tank that will sit between the 2X4's (on the floor) to make use of the cooling effect of the concrete slab:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2712.jpg

and the front:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2709.jpg

Everything is being roughed in so I can get the system up and cycling and then I will go back and add the finishing touches and tweaks. I'm eliminating as many sources of heat input as possible but have mostly resigned myself to adding a chiller down the road. The tank has been cycling for two weeks now... Time to start collecting.

Finally, here's a little video of the tank at night. Very boring but a nice shimmer effect!

ckick here for video (http://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/fisherder/?action=view&current=100_2625.flv)

steveweast
11/24/2006, 09:06 AM
I like the look of the sand....could you tell me more about it ?

uberfugu
11/24/2006, 09:17 AM
Nice work Dale.

Regarding the 5 gal biofilter, do you have a mechanism to stop
the siphon in case of a power outage?

norskfisk
11/24/2006, 04:21 PM
Cool setup. I am thinking about setting up a native tank myself. North East Atlantic in my case. So I am looking forward to following this thread. Especially to hear you experiences with various critters.

Liked the skimmer! Is it working well?

When you live in a temperate area you typically have some species that are more adapted to cold water and some that are adapted to warmer water. So choosing the right ones is important if you don't have a chiller.

toonces
11/25/2006, 08:59 PM
more info!

i'll be following this tank closely...

Dale Carlisle
11/26/2006, 07:07 PM
Hi guys, sorry for the slow response.

Steve, the substrate is used for sandblasting. Here's a link:20-50 blue diamond abrasive grit (http://www.targetproducts.com/catalog/specsheets/grndiam.pdf)

The skimmer works fine, I'll edit in a link to the DIY build (link is at the botom of the post).

The biofilter is one of my favorite new toys as it is sooooo basic.
1. Close the tee valve on the outlet pipe
2. Prime the system
3. Open the tee valve

The siphon effect kicks in and you have a perpetual motion machine. The key is to only sink the intake an inch or two below the surface of the display and to ensure your sump can hold that inch or two of water. As long as your return pump is pumping more than you're siphoning, all will be well. The one problem that can occur is if your return pump stops. Then your biofilter will continue siphoning the display till it breaks siphon (in my case 10-15G.'s). All I need now is 3 more G.'s of bioballs.

Dales DIY 5G. skimmer (http://www.aquahobby.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=38764&highlight=)
Dales DIY 5G. biofilter (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=28531)

invincible569
11/26/2006, 07:18 PM
Dale, I like your approach, but I dont see how you can keep these corals without a chiller. Maybe I missed something you said.

Dale Carlisle
11/26/2006, 08:12 PM
I only said I was going to try :D

I don't have a problem running a chiller, I just want to see if I can maintain my tank without one first. I want to do this for two reasons:

a.) The cost. This 135G. is just a precursor to a much bigger system in the future. I am concerned with the capital outlay for a chiller suitable for a 1000 - 2000G. tank and more importantly, the ongoing operational cost.

b.) Condensation issues. If I can run a tank at my ambient garage temps I can avoid most of the condensation issues Steve has eluded to.

It is also important to remember that this will be a temperate or tidal zone tank and not a true coldwater tank. I will be stocking with flora and fauna found in tidal pools/flats and mud bays where the temps vary depending on tidal and weather conditions.

I'm finding it all quite interesting as it is all one big learning curve!

steveweast
11/26/2006, 10:07 PM
I'm really confused on that sand link.....even though it looks great, why are you using something that is Nickle slag (metal) containing 21.6% iron....3.19% Al......and 43.05% SiO2 ? and has the warning that "this product has a moderate to low toxicity to fish" ? Invertebrates, I'm sure, are even more sensitive than fish.

Cold water tanks generally have a tough time keeping the pH above 8.0. A CaCo3 based sand would be much better in adding a little buffering plus have no "moderate to low toxicity to fish".

steveweast
11/26/2006, 10:14 PM
I also agree with Edward.....I don't see how you're going to succeed without a chiller. I'm assuming you're keeping critters from B.C......which is close to my neck of the woods. Even tidal areas get flushed with cold water with every tide and the summertime water temp rarely gets above 58....and winter is usually in the 40's (and sometimes 30's). I thought that I was making my critters experience an endless summer at 55 F.....are you planning to keep your tank above 55 F ? If it weren't for my temperate Australian critters.... which like 60+/-....I'd be keeping my tank in the upper 40's.

coldwater reef
11/27/2006, 01:23 PM
Metals in a coldwater marine tank are a recipe for disaster. I use an aragonite substrate. I take care to avoid putting my hands in the water after even touching anything metal.

Dale Carlisle
11/27/2006, 11:05 PM
Well, isn't that a kick in the pants!

I actually had no idea about the content of the substrate until I posted that link. It appeared to me to be a granitic based sand mixture. It just seems to be another twist in my search for an alternative substrate. I'm glad you pointed it out Steve, although it may mean that I have to remove my substrate :(

I still have my happy face on but I must say that (in general) the nay saying is a little frustrating and non conducive to exploration. I think some are misconstruing curiosity with a rejection of known principles.
Yes, Ca based substrates have advantages that I am quite aware of and agree with but we don't actually have Ca based substrates off of the west coast so, if we want to develop representative examples of these areas, we have to look to alternative substrates.
Yes, chillers are an easy and effective way to reduce tank temps and they will do the job but are they the only way? Should they be the first line of temp control or can we reduce HP requirements by taking advantage of passive forms of cooling first (like eliminating forms of heat input such as using inline instead of submersible pumps, eliminating power heads by using surge tanks and making use of the stable cooling effect of those great big concrete slabs)?
Yes, temperate flora and fauna need cooler temps than their tropical counterparts but we really don't know what the temp requirements are for some marginal tidal zone species. Right now we are just guessing.

I guess that's the motivation behind my build - to try/learn something new. This field is pretty undeveloped and I'm not afraid of making a mistake or two along the way in order to push the envelope a bit. In the end, if I have to plug in a chiller or anything else, at least I'll have exhausted my alternatives and we'll have something concrete to offer the next time someone tries the same thing.

Dale Carlisle
11/28/2006, 01:05 AM
editing mistake

invincible569
11/28/2006, 05:39 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8632907#post8632907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dale Carlisle
Well, isn't that a kick in the pants!
Yes, chillers are an easy and effective way to reduce tank temps and they will do the job but are they the only way? Should they be the first line of temp control or can we reduce HP requirements by taking advantage of passive forms of cooling first (like eliminating forms of heat input such as using inline instead of submersible pumps, eliminating power heads by using surge tanks and making use of the stable cooling effect of those great big concrete slabs)?
Yes, temperate flora and fauna need cooler temps than their tropical counterparts but we really don't know what the temp requirements are for some marginal tidal zone species. Right now we are just guessing.


Even if you take out any heat from your tank.. what will the water temps lower too? Room temperature. Do you live in Antarctica?

steveweast
11/28/2006, 09:48 AM
Dale....I'm sorry that the substrate isn't going to work. I wish it would.....it looks awesome. I guess the hunt contiues. I've been using a very pure CaCO3 that is kind of salt/pepper looking....and gives an OK appearance....but not great. I've thought of just using local beach sand but, it's not user friendly. Since I top off with kalk, my substrate doesn't need to CaCO3....just something inert.

As for the temp thing.....I don't think anyone here is bagging on you for not using a chiller.....they are just trying to relate their experiences. In my case, I'm amazed at how much heat actually accumulates. Today, I have a foot of snow on the ground and nightime temps are in the teens....and I'm still chiller driven. My aquariums add quite a bit of heating to my garage even though it's cold outside. I have no problem with your wanting to have a go without a chiller......I just think that the peace of mind that a chiller brings overcomes the cost....to me at least.

norskfisk
11/28/2006, 10:39 AM
I have lots of experience with keeping freshwater species without a chiller. It works. I know about people who have kept native marine species for a long time without a chiller. My philosophy here is that in a temperate area the species come from the north and from the south. None of them have a perfect environment. Some would like it colder and some warmer. Pick those that would like it warmer. Check out the distribution area of the species. If you area is in the far northern part of it, they would probably like a warmer environment.

But I would still very much recommend one because it is so relaxing not having to worry about the temperature.

billsreef
11/28/2006, 11:58 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8632907#post8632907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dale Carlisle
Yes, temperate flora and fauna need cooler temps than their tropical counterparts but we really don't know what the temp requirements are for some marginal tidal zone species. Right now we are just guessing.

There really is no reason to be just guessing what temps are adequate. It's really very simple to figure out. Look up the natural range for the species of interest, than look at the normal water temps for the range. Consider the Northernmost and Southernmost parts of the range the extreme, and go for a water temperature in between.

As for alternative cooling, certainly worth looking into. Just set up the system and run it for awhile to determine what temp it keeps and either keep species that are known to live well at that temp, or do something to futher cool it down to accptable levels for the species that you want to keep.

coldwater reef
11/28/2006, 02:15 PM
ok here goes about substrate-I find some places on the beach where a lot of small oyster/clam shell fragments accumulate up above the high water mark. I can easily be gathered and used as an authentic substrate. I myself simply use regular substrate because most is covered by barnacle clusters etc that I put in the tank. BTW the barnacles are still going strong for me.

rekn
11/28/2006, 07:16 PM
ok i have a 56 acrylic tank that im thinking of going cold with. i live in CO in a basement (lol) that stays around 65 in the summer and 55 in the winter. my lighting is 4 t5 but it came with rerally bright led moon lights. do you think i could just keep the moons on and not have a chiller?



also, seeing as how i live in colorado would it be possible to get CW livestock?

coldwater reef
11/28/2006, 08:16 PM
there's an outfit in Maine- http://gulfofme.com/ and then myself being I live 5 minutes from the water. I think also there's an outfit in New Zealand. Otherwise it's pretty much non-existent. Keeping CW marines is a rare disorder. Few aquarists are afflicted and are little understood by normal people who just keep fish and live a normal life.

coldwater reef
11/28/2006, 08:17 PM
65f is way too hot.

rekn
11/29/2006, 06:24 AM
i just wish they had more pics of what they had available

mr. bojangsjang
11/29/2006, 08:19 AM
OMG thank you coldwater reef! I don't live too far from Maine and I guess I will get my livestock from there and Billsreef, thanks!

rekn
11/29/2006, 09:16 AM
billsreef?

mr. bojangsjang
11/29/2006, 09:53 AM
Yea, go to the livestock section and on the bottom right hand you'll see a Temperate section.

rekn
11/29/2006, 10:06 AM
still no pics of what hes got...

mr. bojangsjang
11/29/2006, 10:10 AM
He doesn't have any pics for some reason, but I guess thats because all the livestock is caught to order. I tried e-mailing him twice about what livestock he can catch but still no answer =(

rekn
11/29/2006, 10:30 AM
i just wanna see some anenomes and such that can be collected in the area

billsreef
11/29/2006, 10:47 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8642005#post8642005 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr. bojangsjang
He doesn't have any pics for some reason, but I guess thats because all the livestock is caught to order. I tried e-mailing him twice about what livestock he can catch but still no answer =(

Sorry, might have lost your email in my spam filters. With a 100 so pieces of spam a day I occasionally screw up and miss a real email :( Feel free to PM me ;)

mr. bojangsjang
11/29/2006, 11:05 AM
No worries Bill! It's a tough job going through a million e-mails a day, will shoot you a PM in a bit.

coldwater reef
11/29/2006, 01:55 PM
I can collect and ship puget sound critters, right now though I am limited by really crappy weather and lack of motivation. Eventually here, like by early spring, I intend to have a website up and running and attempt to supply coldwater aquarists with the cool stuff. In the meantime some input would be greatly appreciated!

mr. bojangsjang
11/29/2006, 02:06 PM
Wow thats cool coldwater reef! Must be fun setting up your own business, even if it only for fun. I'll give you a PM.

mr. bojangsjang
11/29/2006, 02:37 PM
I want to set up a cold water tank (not temperate) with livestock from that Maine outlet. Are there any Puget Sound fish/inverts that can be kept at the same temperature? What about the ones from Billsreef (long island NY) and that Australian outlet?

Also coldwater reef, you said you set up your 100 gallon system for under $1,000, how the hell did you manage that? Hopefully when I set up mine (around 40 gallons) I can stay under $700 excluding the livestock.

coldwater reef
11/29/2006, 03:24 PM
bought a used plexiglas tank and wet/dry filter, used iwaki pump, got killer deal on a returned 1,2 hp chiller, paid $480 for it and it didn't work so the factory replaced it with new, it's a $900+ unit, built my own stand, had a protein skimmer lying anound and a small flourescent light, done deal! The tank has a few small scratches but it work....

mr. bojangsjang
11/29/2006, 04:21 PM
Where did you get the chiller from? only $480 for a 1/2 HP chiller (new or returned) is awesome.

coldwater reef
11/29/2006, 05:58 PM
It's an ECO-Plus chiller from seeds etc company advertises on ebay. by chance the distributor guy lives about 30 mins drive away. I email him and he tells me he has a return in stock, will sell half price and guarantee that it works. Turns out it didn't work because it had been overloaded(people use them for hydoponics ie cannabis production). SO I call him up and he says take it to fedex and send it to the main company down in Vancouver Wa (free shipping). 4 weeks later a brand new unit comes back. Good deal.

stressboy
12/03/2006, 07:20 AM
I am following this thread with a lot of interest. I have been wanting to get back into this hobby for years, and have always wanted to keep native marines.

The fish I am most interested in is the Decorated Warbonnet. Do they adapt well to captivity, or are they best left in the ocean?

steveweast
12/03/2006, 10:00 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8669016#post8669016 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stressboy
I am following this thread with a lot of interest. I have been wanting to get back into this hobby for years, and have always wanted to keep native marines.

The fish I am most interested in is the Decorated Warbonnet. Do they adapt well to captivity, or are they best left in the ocean?

Will is better suited to answer this question since I haven't caught one yet....but, I think they adapt well....but, tend to nip anemones if I remember correctly.

coldwater reef
12/03/2006, 04:03 PM
Warbonnets-they've got issues! I've got a pair in my tank. As far as hardiness goes, so far they are bulletproof. Yes, they nip anemones, however, they tend to leave the crimson anemones alone. They are hell on the chrismas tree anemones. Another issue is that they like to hide most of the time. Fortunately one of them has taken up residence in a location where it's head is visible. I have a pair, as mentioned. The female is drab green/olive but the male is a nice bright reddish color.
Wait a minute...I'm talking about the warbonnet chirolophis nugator, not the decoratus! I would assune though, that they are in the same genus, that the husbandry would be the same. The decoratus is much larger but also less frequent. I am a happy diver when I encounter one. Catching the decoratus isn't as difficult as the nugator though! They're bigger and slower, and if you miss them the 1st time they usually go right home after a while. On one occasion I was diving in Deception Pass and caught on. It escaped the net as I was getting back into the boat. I caught it again on my second dive, right where it was before! Anyhow, warbonnets of both species are good aquarium fish aside from their animosity towards certain anemones. Good deal that they get along fine with the anemone I prefer. On a final note, I have never observed then showing an interest in prepared foods, but it seems there's enough for them to eat in my system, and BTW Steve, my horse barnacles are doing fine, recently I've been adding marine snow and formula one frozen, which breaks up into small enough particles for my barnacles, which form the "live rock" in my tank.

coldwater reef
12/03/2006, 04:04 PM
forgive my grammar error -it's head...should be "its head". I am ashamed!!!!!

Dale Carlisle
12/03/2006, 10:10 PM
Well, if you are ashamed I must be abashed!

I just finished about 5 hours straight working on my tank. Steve, you are correct - that water is cold.
Most of the work was composed of dredging my nickel slag (ha ha ha), siphoning the tank, rinsing, refilling, re siphoning, rinsing new substrate, refilling tank, switching sumps... Whew!

All this work has also helped me to make some decisions about my set up. In the end I have to say that adding a chiller will be necessary for, if nothing else, piece of mind. Even if I could "surf" the upper temperature limit passively I'd probably be adding undue stress on most species (not something I want to do) and I would probably lose a lot before I found the few that would thrive. In the end I think running a chiller less system would take too many interesting species out of the equation. It just took me a while to get there. So, now I'm on the hunt for a hobo chiller.
The experiment has been a success in the sense that I've learned a lot of ways to reduce heat input though and... I've discovered that crow does taste half bad. I doff my hat to the chiller advocates.

The substrate I've added is #1 grade crushed granite or good old chicken grit. I've used it in my FW systems for years.
Here's the bag:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2749.jpg


and a look at the tank (still a little silty). I am thinking I will blend in some pebbles (aggregate used for concrete) and either some crushed coral or oyster shells (for buffering). Any ideas on crushed oyster shells? They sell it for chicken feed additive but I've never used it.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2744.jpg

This is the new sump (sans skimmer). A 30G. Hagen for $20 because of a small chip on the top rim. I switched to this one because it sits directly on the concrete slab (passive cooling).

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2748.jpg

This is my 75G. tropical reef. It has 48hr's left to live before it is torn down and transfered to my diningroom 140G. tank. When it is fallow the tank will be plumbed into the Hoboreef system and will be the first tank I begin to stock.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2750.jpg

No need to ask me what I do with my spare time :rolleyes:

coldwater reef
12/04/2006, 12:10 PM
good deal dale! one concern I have though is residual metals in your water which coldwater critters are not tolerant of. you may wish to go real heavy on the activated carbon for a while. looks like you have a good system going though!

uberfugu
12/04/2006, 12:19 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8677341#post8677341 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coldwater reef
you may wish to go real heavy on the activated carbon for a while.

Or Seachem's Purigen or Cuprisorb

coldwater reef
12/04/2006, 12:45 PM
for the pebbles, well I'd hit the beach and find loose seashell frags that accumulate between larger rocks. With a little bit of searching you can find some good stuff.

coldwater reef
12/05/2006, 11:22 AM
yay I just found a place to put my dive skiff right in deception pass!!!strawberry anemones here I come!!!

jeremai
12/05/2006, 06:18 PM
Hehe, I better get that box shipped back soon, eh? Save me a couple strawberries. ;)

coldwater reef
12/05/2006, 09:34 PM
Yes I could use that box! I have smaller ones which will work a lot better, and I've got to send a GPO out.

coldwater reef
12/05/2006, 09:34 PM
Yes I could use that box! I have smaller ones which will work a lot better, and I've got to send a GPO out.

edwing206
12/05/2006, 10:08 PM
you guys should see the coldwater reefs at the seattle aquariums INCREDILBE
i will try to get some pics maybe this saturday since i have training. you should look into getting some ratfish, not sure if they are saltwater though, but def. need to check them out

coldwater reef
12/05/2006, 10:15 PM
ratfish are saltwater.

Dale Carlisle
12/06/2006, 01:36 AM
Some inspiration from the Vancouver aquarium:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fishherder/100_2326.jpg

coldwater reef
12/06/2006, 07:52 PM
Hi guys! just got back from scuba diving, lucked out and found a quantity of proliferative anemones, so I collected a good amount. Other than that I managed to catch 2 grunt sculpins. I also picked up a couple more rocks and a new hermit crab and a small orange starfish. All in all a good trip. Going out again tommorow. I'm after an octopus but didn't find any today. Oh well, try again tommorow. Finally though, some grunt sculpins in the tank!

invincible569
12/06/2006, 08:59 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8690610#post8690610 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dale Carlisle
Some inspiration from the Vancouver aquarium:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d190/fi\hherder/100_2326.jpg

Wow, that is nice!! What temp do they have the tank on?

mr. bojangsjang
12/06/2006, 10:25 PM
Wow are those all strawberry anemones in that Vancouver Aquarium display?

steveweast
12/07/2006, 09:53 AM
Will....congrats on the sculpins and brooding anemones....sounds like you were in Deception Pass ? I really want to get out to Neah Bay to collect true Corynactus strawberries (unless you know of another place where they are located) like in the photo above. The one colony that I have does very well....but, they need more friends. If you get a chance to go to Neah, let me know....I would join you.

Edward....The Vancouver Aquarium is right on the water....so, I imagine that their system is open. Right now, Puget Sound temps are in the upper 40's.

Dale Carlisle
12/07/2006, 11:27 AM
Yes, they run ambient ocean temps on most of their systems.

Congrats on the grunts! Please keep us informed on their progress in the tank (feeding etc...) as this is a species I'm quite interested in.

Marathon 10 hour day yesterday tearing down one reef and setting up another. No fish losses and only one droopy cabbage coral. Whew!

coldwater reef
12/07/2006, 11:49 AM
I set the temp at 48f. The grunts are hopping around looking for food. I'm working on filling up my air tanks and getting our again...BTW the strawberries I refer to are proliferative or brooding anemones, I was where I took you before Steve, but just more to the west of the point. I lucked out, no significant current. I punctured a wrist seal somehow and got wet, but made a second dive anyway, my right arm and upper body was soaked all the way to my waist! Proof that argon gas works, I did cut the second dive a little short when I began to get slightly chilled, but nothing serious. A have a backup drysuit now with a new neck seal and inflate valve(viking sport) that I'll pick up from the shop today($200 repair bill...EEEK!) I still have to check on the moorage inside DP but it looks like a go! Yes I want some true Corynactus strawberries, but none closeby, I'll have to go out more around San Juan or Orcas I think. I've found some huge, beautiful coralline colored umbrella crabs there. Also I want some juvenile Puget Sound kings, I've found only 1 here though, 10 years ago. Strange I found no octos, but the vis was really bad yesterday due to previous high tidal volumes. BTW I'm putting together a website for all this stuff...but it'll be awhile yet. The grunt sculpins are happy this morning, my woman has fallen in love hehe("you never said they were so cute!!!") As far as feeding goes, they need live food and I find what they'll instantly feed on are the small hermits found during low tide. collect a few handfull then break them out of their shells. Grunts love them! I'll also be collecting as many amphipods as possible, another good foodsource. Anyhow, I'll make another report this evening...

steveweast
12/07/2006, 06:46 PM
Will....Let me know if you get further into the San Juans. Ryan and I would love to join you....especially if it means more corynactus. I think I might head up to Seiku next week....I hear from Jeff that baby Kings can be found there.

coldwater reef
12/07/2006, 07:15 PM
My boat is pretty fast Steve-Today I didn't dive but I took it from Skyline around the island though DP and now it's at a dock there. I could cruise out into the San Juans easily weather permitting(I had a bumpy ride today) then meet you guys and load up the gear. With myself, dive gear and another person I can still get up on plane. With myself and two diver It'd be cramped but could manage. It's just a 12' hard bottom inflatable. It's supposed to have a 15 horse engine, I use a 25 horse, so plenty of power! Anyhow I still have to find a GPO so I'm waiting on a bit better weather, today wasn't so good and I have a punctured wrist seal.
Let me know when you want to come up. Neah is a bit far for my boat though. I'd like to find corynactus somewhere close!

rekn
12/08/2006, 09:05 PM
pics!

coldwater reef
12/08/2006, 09:48 PM
yeah how the heck do I post my pics? I tried and failed, says they're too big.

coldwater reef
12/09/2006, 01:50 AM
Well folks, I just got back from a night dive. Spent about an hour cruising around underwater. Got myself 4 piling perch, a few surf perch, and 3 sailfin sculpins. In addition I picked up some kind of crab I'll ID later, and 3 keyhole limpets. Then I spent awhile wading around with my dive light and mask/snorkel netting shrimp and amphipods. The grunt sculpins were happy about that! They are much more predatory than I had thought, and go after larger prey than I imagined! I changed 10 gallons water with natural seawater, everything in the tank perked up a bit with that. The brooding anemones finally opened etc. I'll be doing a 10 gallon water change every day for the next week until I'm sure it's pristine. My aquarium is getting very well stocked finally. I'll be wanting some more horse barnacle clusters next, and after that just small inverts. Anyhow the dive was perfect, when I entered the water there was a slight current which stopped about 5 minutes into it...I had checked the tide table and there was only 11 inches of exchange. It was in a spot where normally there's a bit of current normally. One of the sailfins is a bit large for my taste, I may release it. All in all, a really productive night.

Chaloupa
12/09/2006, 02:06 AM
WOW! just checked out what the Sailfin Sculpin looks like...very cool fish! as said...PICTURES would be great!

coldwater reef
12/09/2006, 02:34 AM
What are you doing up so late?
No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted...actually according to murphy, no good deed ever goes unpunished.
Yeah I still have to figure out how to post pictures.

billsreef
12/09/2006, 08:27 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8711454#post8711454 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coldwater reef
yeah how the heck do I post my pics? I tried and failed, says they're too big.

I usually resize images to about 640x480 and save as a jpeg. Depending on the original image size, you might need to play around with the jpeg quality settings. IIRC you need to get the image to be less than 100kb.

"Umm, fish?"
12/09/2006, 09:49 AM
Honestly, I don't like the size limits of the forums. So, I put my pictures up elsewhere on the internet and just post a link to them here. It saves me much headache in trying to get my images to some arbitrary size limit.

billsreef
12/09/2006, 10:33 AM
The size limits really aren't so arbitrary, it has to do with being able to host so much data from so many users. Also the size limits are really more than adequate for an image to look good on on a monitor, larger file sizes really aren't needed ;)

coldwater reef
12/09/2006, 10:46 AM
hmmm well I've got to make another dive today, I'll try and git-r-done over the weekend.

"Umm, fish?"
12/09/2006, 01:18 PM
I'm sorry. It wasn't meant as a criticism. I meant it was arbitrary in that it could have been 98kb or 102kb, but someone just decided 100kb. Arbitrary.

Dale Carlisle
12/10/2006, 10:16 AM
I use photobucket which has a resizing function. but it isn't the best for creating multi pic posts though.

coldwater reef
12/11/2006, 03:38 PM
ok got the digital camera and will have some pics up here soon. Don't expect them to be high quality though...

coldwater reef
12/13/2006, 01:00 PM
anemone

coldwater reef
12/13/2006, 01:07 PM
alright I'm not posting photos here. Just attempted after ruducing file size etc. I'll be doing a website here soon, and I'll have my pics there.
Anyhow, my piling perch are taking flake food and everything seems to be doing ok.

Fishboy1230
12/15/2006, 05:01 PM
bump
great thread
makes me want another tank......

Fishfreak218
12/17/2006, 09:01 PM
Steaveweast,
first off, amazing tanks! I have a few questions
What are the dimensions of both of your coldwater tanks?
What are you feeding your anemones?
Can we see closer Full tank shots?

coldwater reef
12/18/2006, 04:04 PM
Just added a basket star, some ostrich plume hydroids and 3 umbrella crabs!

rekn
12/18/2006, 06:32 PM
pics cwr!

coldwater reef
12/18/2006, 06:51 PM
ok ok I'll get busy on it!

dendro982
12/19/2006, 06:18 AM
Does anybody know the Canadian suppliers for the colorful temperate reef habitants, Ontario (Toronto) preferably? I had never seen anything like this in retail.
Really great tanks!

Fishboy1230
12/19/2006, 02:38 PM
What would you guys reccomend as the min. thickness for glass without sweating? Also very noob question for temprate reefs, Where is the Pugent sound? (states?)
Thanks
Keep this forum rollin

steveweast
12/19/2006, 02:47 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8786082#post8786082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fishboy1230
What would you guys reccomend as the min. thickness for glass without sweating? Also very noob question for temprate reefs, Where is the Pugent sound? (states?)
Thanks
Keep this forum rollin


I would suggest no less than 3/4".....I've seen tanks with 1/2" that did have minor sweating in 95 F summer heat. But, with the humidity of NJ, I'd suggest for you no less than 3/4".

Where's Puget Sound ???? That would the huge Sound that stretches from Olympia, Wa in the South ....through Seattle....and onto the Canadian border.

coldwater reef
12/19/2006, 03:41 PM
As Steve says, 3/4". My tank is standard thickness though and hasn't given me any problems so far, but it isn't summer yet.
Another thing is the existence of insulated tanks from aquatico, but they cost more.
What I've done with my tank, although it's a hack job, is glue styrofoam sheet on all but the front. Also, having the tank on top of stryo sheet goes far. Thermodynamics and stuff y'know.
As far as Puget Sound goes, use GOOGLE image search, terms like Puget Sound scuba etc. and you should get some good results. The marine biodiversity here in the sound is extraordinary, I may be incorrect but I've read somewhere or heard that there are more species per square foot here than anywhere else. Another thing is that with the critters from here you can pack more variety into the tank and not have the compatability problems as with tropical reefs. I really am starting to prefer my coldwater system over the tropical for that reason, plus I collect for myself, which is a blast. Additionally, the maintenance with my system is much, much less than the tropical. Almost zero evaporation, no algae issues, I just go and get about 20 gallons of water per week from the bay and that's it.

aquaruki
12/20/2006, 05:28 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7812159#post7812159 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tecoral

I plan on trying something in the future but instead of a chiller I want to try a heat exchange using buried plastic line and a good pump. Something that was deep enough to not freeze in the winter. If I can get a handle on my other projects I would be able to start. Love to see some picts of your setups.

Hey, I wanted to do a heat exchanger also! I have a bunch of plastic water line that is left over from installing new water main in our house. I figured a good pump could push the water thru and cool it.:)

aquaruki
12/20/2006, 05:33 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8786082#post8786082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fishboy1230
What would you guys reccomend as the min. thickness for glass without sweating? Also very noob question for temprate reefs, Where is the Pugent sound? (states?)
Thanks
Keep this forum rollin

Ha ha ha!:lol: I have lived by the Sound for a decade and a half, and it just recently occurred to me that someone might not know where it is! I asked one guy online if he had ever seen beadlet anemones in Puget Sound (thinking he is local), and realized afterwards that he lives in Greece!

Fishboy1230
12/21/2006, 02:08 PM
How much Lighting Do these aneomones and other inverts/ corals require? What type of Lighting is best for coldwater reef, MH, PC, T5, Strip light. Thanks!

Fishboy1230
12/21/2006, 02:08 PM
How much Lighting Do these aneomones and other inverts/ corals require? What type of Lighting is best for coldwater reef, MH, PC, T5, Strip light.

Fishboy1230
12/21/2006, 02:09 PM
Srry double post

steveweast
12/21/2006, 04:49 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8801742#post8801742 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fishboy1230
How much Lighting Do these aneomones and other inverts/ corals require? What type of Lighting is best for coldwater reef, MH, PC, T5, Strip light. Thanks!


I think that this was addressed eariler. These critters require no light....nada.....none....use whatever light you like. There are a few photosynthetic tidepool anemones (the green ones up here) and of course kelp or sea grasses need light.....but, the very vast majority of cold water coral and inteverbrates are non photosynthetic and require no light. You MUST feed them well though if they are to do well.

mr. bojangsjang
12/21/2006, 05:40 PM
Steve, have you had any difficulty feeding the corals and anemones? Do you think a plankton reactor would be a good investment?

steveweast
12/21/2006, 05:43 PM
I just stick a scallop into the tentacles.....and use cyclopeeze for the strawberry anemones. Couldn't be easier.

mr. bojangsjang
12/21/2006, 06:23 PM
LOL that is easy.

Do you think a plankton reactor would be a good investment? Would make some small plankton for the anemones/corals and some amphipods for the fish. Would have to find a source of cold water 'pods to seed it though.

steveweast
12/21/2006, 07:43 PM
No, I don't see the benefit relative to the effort.

Fishboy1230
12/21/2006, 09:04 PM
Does anyone know any websites to buy the coldwater species? If not does anyone know a ok spot to collect specimens on the NJ coast? I think its too poluted...

mr. bojangsjang
12/21/2006, 09:12 PM
Fishboy, where to obtain cold water species has been covered many times in this thread, read through the pages.

Steve, if the reactor isn't worth the effort, what would you recommend for providing lots of zooplankton growth? Would do a fuge but since I will have a nitrate and phosphate reactor I don't think any macros would grow.

melev
12/24/2006, 08:54 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7938324#post7938324 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by steveweast
I don't have a site for my cold system....but, I will add it to my warm water site when I update it. There are a few threads on this site and others that show a few pics though....you just have to search under "temperate" or "cold water"

Steve, do you still plan to add your coldwater tank on the oregonreef site at some point?

invincible569
12/25/2006, 10:58 AM
Steve, I thought you would like this since you own one yourself. The guy from Japan says you can find these fish at shallow waters during the months of winter, but usually they are 30m-60m below starting in April because of the cold water they need 67 degrees temps to live comfortably.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4845/200611051uw5.jpg

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/798/200611052ng3.jpg

steveweast
12/25/2006, 11:24 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8822560#post8822560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Steve, do you still plan to add your coldwater tank on the oregonreef site at some point?

Yes, when I update my site, it will include a cold water section. I'm still working on getting the cold water tank up to snuff....maybe this spring.

steveweast
12/25/2006, 11:28 AM
[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8824381#post8824381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by invincible569
[B]Steve, I thought you would like this since you own own yourself. The guy from Japan says you can find these fish at shallow waters during the months of winter, but usually they are 30m-60m below starting in April because of the cold water they need 67 degrees temps to live comforably.



Thanks Edward....I really like the darker white bar....I haven't seen that morph yet. They do seem to have a little ich on the fins though.....I hope that the water is kept cooler for them since they seem to be very suseptible to disease when kept in warmer water.

Dale Carlisle
01/01/2007, 09:01 PM
Hi all.

I just recieved a great book for Xmas: Marine Life of the Pacific Northwest by Andy Lamb and Bernard P Hanby. Harbour Publishing 2005. $69.95CAD. They have a website www.harbourpublishing.com. It's a hardcover, 398 Pg. reference guide of inverts, seaweeds and selected fish. Lots and lots of beautiful pic's including worms, hydroids, jellies, sponges, nudibranchs, tunicates etc...

Current ambient temp in the fishroom 54.9*F!

naka
01/02/2007, 05:50 PM
For someone interested in getting a. lenticularis.
Reefermadness (http://www.reefermadness.us/RMD_Anoplocapros_lenticularis_cow.htm) has 3 for sale right now.

http://www.reefermadness.us/images/RMD_Anoplocapros_lenticularis_cow.jpg

James

DrBDC
01/02/2007, 05:55 PM
That's so ugly it's cool.

invincible569
01/02/2007, 08:00 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8880946#post8880946 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by naka
For someone interested in getting a. lenticularis.
Reefermadness (http://www.reefermadness.us/RMD_Anoplocapros_lenticularis_cow.htm) has 3 for sale right now.


James

WOW. Get one James! :) Just lower your photoperiod and drop the chiller degrees a couple notches. ;)

Freds
01/05/2007, 11:43 AM
HOLY COW~! (or boxfish)

$549!

ugh, I was thinking of doing a 120 coldwater by plumbing some pipe underground and keeping the tank in my basement. If low enough I figured the ground should always be around 55 degrees and would solve the cooling issue. $549 for a single fish presents a whole new problem.

steveweast
01/05/2007, 02:01 PM
The Australian boxfish are a unique (expensive) situation. There are several species that come through the regular warm water trade that are cheap....like catalina gobies, waratah anemones, margarita snails, etc. Of course it is even better if you have access to collect yourself.....meaning....being on the West coast or in the Northeast. There just isn't a cold water retail supplier.... YET... to make getting stock easy. The first supplier in will do quite well since the lure of a cold water system is becoming more known. It's possible that sometime soon critters like these will become more available.....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/blueanemone.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/steveweast/sunstar.jpg

SaraB
01/05/2007, 02:38 PM
Steve - What is the beautiful blue specimen you just posted ?

steveweast
01/05/2007, 02:49 PM
It's an anemone that is a bit closed up in the photo since it was just fed before this photo was taken. The anemone is Phymactis papillosa and is found in the temperate waters off Chile. I've had him for about 3 months now.

SaraB
01/05/2007, 02:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8905411#post8905411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by steveweast
It's an anemone that is a bit closed up in the photo since it was just fed before this photo was taken. The anemone is Phymactis papillosa and is found in the temperate waters off Chile. I've had him for about 3 months now.

Thanks, it's beautiful! My non-reefing husband wants a coldwater tank ... I showed him this thread and he loves your tanks. That's the nice thing ... I can purchase what he likes and not get in trouble for spending the $. After my 225 is set-up, this will be next! Thanks for sharing with us!

Sara

mr. bojangsjang
01/05/2007, 07:29 PM
Is the star that you just posted Crossaster papposus? If so, has it tried to eat any anemones or corals? What about shrimp?

steveweast
01/05/2007, 09:53 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8907694#post8907694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr. bojangsjang
Is the star that you just posted Crossaster papposus? If so, has it tried to eat any anemones or corals? What about shrimp?


No...he is a sunflower star (Pycnopodia helianthoides). He is a great scavenager and my best clean up crew member. After just a slight scent of food hits the water, he comes out on the prowl. He is very fast and is impossible to get to release from anything that he's attached to. I feed him scallops. I'm sure that he has taken a snail or two....but, that's about it. They are very common here and can get VERY large (up to 3 feet across). This is just a baby of 4 inches. One day, I'll have to take him back to Puget Sound though..... before the neighbor kids start disappearaing.

Fishboy1230
01/05/2007, 10:06 PM
I wouldn't mess with nature by reintroducing it.

invincible569
01/06/2007, 07:18 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8908969#post8908969 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fishboy1230
I wouldn't mess with nature by reintroducing it.

Good for you. How does your post help the discussion of Cold/Water Aquariums? Your morals as a follower should remain as the student at the back of the room. Just sit and watch.

billsreef
01/06/2007, 09:22 AM
invincible569,

That was uncalled for.

[chimp]

Fishboy does indeed make a valid point. If the starfish is in a tank with nothing but specimens collected locally, than it is fine to release back to it's collection site IMO. However, if it's been in a tank with specimens from other locals such as Australia, than releasing would be a no no.

steveweast
01/06/2007, 09:40 AM
I really don't want to get into an ethics debate....but....I have several close resources at some of the public aquariums here on the West coast......I'll have to speak to them again to get their take specifically to this case. From my limited conversations in the past with them, the native species release didn't pose a problem.....afterall they also have release of native species that may have contact with non-native species......but....these are mostly ottters, seals, dolphins,etc. I'll have to speak to them again specifically on starfish. I can always donate any critter to them......they are always looking for additions.

One interesting thing though......this particular starfish grows to 3 feet in the wild.....and has a natural lifespan of up to 5 years..... and I've had him for 2 years.....but, he has only grown from 3 inches to 4 inches in that time.

GreshamH
01/06/2007, 10:26 AM
Just food for thought, but, the Monterey Bay Aquarium no longer can dump their "waste" water straight into the bay! That's from display tanks that house local specimens (and some tanks that don't). Ideas and laws are changing rapidly in this debate ;)

mr. bojangsjang
01/06/2007, 12:19 PM
Steve, did you get the anemone from Chile off he web or did you dive and get it yourself? It would be great to see another temperate supplier, espically from some place other than Australia or around the US :)

steveweast
01/06/2007, 12:24 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8911337#post8911337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GreshamH
Just food for thought, but, the Monterey Bay Aquarium no longer can dump their "waste" water straight into the bay! That's from display tanks that house local specimens (and some tanks that don't). Ideas and laws are changing rapidly in this debate ;)

Interesting.....I know that our local aquariums just flow through their water to/from the ocean.....I'll have to ask if that practice is changing and why ....and is it a state or federal issue. I really don't want to change the flavor of this thread....but, I also wonder how that impact compares with shipping traffic and its associated ballast tanks.

steveweast
01/06/2007, 12:31 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8911910#post8911910 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr. bojangsjang
Steve, did you get the anemone from Chile off he web or did you dive and get it yourself? It would be great to see another temperate supplier, espically from some place other than Australia or around the US :)


http://www.coralseaonline.com/index.php?cPath=27


They are now billing some of their anemones as "needing cooler water".....but, 55F is working for me. You might want to go through this rather long...but very humerous thread. Just another example of cold water critters coming through the warm water trade. I knew these were cold as soon as I saw them. I have one of the beadlets too.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=967181

billsreef
01/06/2007, 02:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8911928#post8911928 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by steveweast
Interesting.....I know that our local aquariums just flow through their water to/from the ocean.....I'll have to ask if that practice is changing and why ....and is it a state or federal issue. I really don't want to change the flavor of this thread....but, I also wonder how that impact compares with shipping traffic and its associated ballast tanks.

That could indeed make for an interesting discussion in a thread of it's own.

GreshamH
01/07/2007, 01:03 AM
One last OT, then I'm done :lol:

In the MBA's case, it's due to the MB being federally protected (marine preserve). That is even with their flow thru bay display!

If the current rules are passed, it'll(MB) be classified as a true no take zone (MPA) and even sport fishing will be banned.

coldwater reef
01/07/2007, 01:17 PM
how much for that anemone steve? it's spectacular! must have!!!

Fishfreak218
01/07/2007, 06:50 PM
well he doesnt have any but I know that they go for around $200-$300 for the big ones and $99 for the small ones (from what i remember, I could be wrong)
I had one but it and another anemone clashed and both died from their injuries

Fishboy1230
01/09/2007, 04:48 PM
Im contimplating setting up a 50-100 gallon Coldwater reef. What size chiller would you recomend? Also is 3/8 glass thick enough to stop sweating? Thanks

coldwater reef
01/09/2007, 06:23 PM
no glass!!! ACRYLIC

AcroSteve
01/09/2007, 06:28 PM
I have no experience with this specifically, but i would say 3/8 in Jersey is no where near thick enough.


I think I remember Steveweast posting somewhere where he suggested 1".

steveweast
01/09/2007, 08:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8938266#post8938266 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fishboy1230
Im contimplating setting up a 50-100 gallon Coldwater reef. What size chiller would you recomend? Also is 3/8 glass thick enough to stop sweating? Thanks



If you want to completely eliminate sweating in all weather....then you'll need 1" (including the sump). I have a dive buddy who has a 60gal tank with 1/2".......most of the time it does not sweat.... but, when the temp gets above 90, it starts to sweat. Here in the Pacific Northwest, we seldom have humidity.....which isn't the case for NJ. Go with the 1"....or no less than 3/4' (I bet you'll still get some sweating with 3/4" though). Another trick is to blow a fan across the tank walls on those troublesome days to stop sweating....but, if your humidity is real high....even that may not help.

As for a chiller, somewhere from a 1/4hp to a 1/2hp will be fine.

Fishboy1230
01/10/2007, 02:20 PM
Thanks!
So it has to be acryic?

ranran
01/10/2007, 06:21 PM
Yes or it will sweat.

lucifersreef
01/15/2007, 12:40 AM
why is that

AcroSteve
01/15/2007, 04:54 AM
Same reason a glass of ice water will sweat. It has to do with the dew point of the air in the room and the temperature of the outside surface of the tank.

steveweast
01/15/2007, 09:55 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8984390#post8984390 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lucifersreef
why is that


The problem is in the temperature difference between the ambient air and the water. Glass is a poor insulator......acrylic is a good insulator. Some folks with glass tanks have placed sheet styrofoam on three sides so that it will only sweat on the front panel.

It's just like AcroSteve has said.....a glass of ice water on a hot day will sweat.....the same water in a styrofoam cup will not. Humidity also plays a role.....but... the insulating properties of the tank is the most important factor.

norskfisk
01/15/2007, 02:04 PM
I just want to argue a little against the idea that you can't keep a coldwater tank without acrylics. It's a very good idea to get acrylics if you live in the US where you can get it cheap. But in my country there is little tradition for it. So you can't really get acrylics tanks. I have kept cold water tanks for years and sweating was never a real issue. I used a glass tank with 8mm (1/4 inch) glass. And I live in a wet coastal climate and don't use air conditioning. Though the room was well ventilated and not subject to moist air from tropical tanks. The sweating didn't start until I tried to reach realistic winter temperatures and got below about 10C (50F). But when the tank was that cold I had the lights off most of the time anyway (changing seasons is part of the charm in northern areas). In the summer it never happened.

There is a big difference between a glass of ice water and a slightly chilled temperate aquarium!

Humidity is a *big* issue. If you keep the tank in a warm room with tropical tanks and lots of lights, a glass tank will sweat a lot even at only a few degrees below room temp.

So go ahead and get acrylics, but don't let it stop you if you can't get any.

mr. bojangsjang
01/15/2007, 03:45 PM
Great input Jon.

How's your 110 gallon cold tank coming along? (I think it was 110, right?)

steveweast
01/15/2007, 05:42 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8988047#post8988047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by norskfisk
I just want to argue a little against the idea that you can't keep a coldwater tank without acrylics. It's a very good idea to get acrylics if you live in the US where you can get it cheap. But in my country there is little tradition for it. So you can't really get acrylics tanks. I have kept cold water tanks for years and sweating was never a real issue. I used a glass tank with 8mm (1/4 inch) glass. And I live in a wet coastal climate and don't use air conditioning. Though the room was well ventilated and not subject to moist air from tropical tanks. The sweating didn't start until I tried to reach realistic winter temperatures and got below about 10C (50F). But when the tank was that cold I had the lights off most of the time anyway (changing seasons is part of the charm in northern areas). In the summer it never happened.

There is a big difference between a glass of ice water and a slightly chilled temperate aquarium!

Humidity is a *big* issue. If you keep the tank in a warm room with tropical tanks and lots of lights, a glass tank will sweat a lot even at only a few degrees below room temp.

So go ahead and get acrylics, but don't let it stop you if you can't get any.



All good points.....but over here....acrylic is as available (or maybe even more available) than glass. Also...I'm not quite sure what your climate is like in your part of Norway....but, many of the folks over here live in VERY hot, humid areas....like anywhere in the South or on the East coast where there will be many 90+ F days with 90% humidity.....or in just very hot areas like anywhere in the Southwest where daily summertime temps exced 100 F. Even in my neck of the woods (the Pacific Northwest), I can expect a few weeks of over 100 F temps a year.

For the folks over here, acrylic is cheap and readily available....there is no reason to make things hard on yourself.

steveweast
01/15/2007, 05:43 PM
.