Testing for calcium

[antonsemrad]

My first calcium test I bought was made by seachem. After a while (6 months or so) I started to ? the results. So I bought one made by Lamotte. Same thing. So I bought another one. (lamotte) At this point I ran a test with all 3 test kits plus by bests friends salifert. ( his was older than all of mine). Guess what, four different results. I can't remember the values (long time ago) but they were all over the map. So I stoped testing for calcium and pay more attention to alk. I use lime water and spend to much time fussing around with my new calcium reactor. (PITA). 10 to 20% water changes are performed regular to bring me back to a base level. So when some one says my calcium is x, I think, hmmmm. So, am I the only one? Am I really to stupid to figure out how to use these things? (To lazy, for sure.) Do you need to test for calcium every 10 min to get your $ worth before they go bad? Is coraline algae-moni cap- acros a better idicator of calcium than these stupid test kits? Can some point out the flaws in my thinking.

[Boomer]

Atom, what were the results and how are you expressing those results? How far off are the 4 kits form each other ?

Some kits have an x value that need to be used so the all express the same value ( in instructions) . Example LaMotte, often uses or expresses Calcium as CaCO3, that is not going be the same number as a Ca++ expression.

If you know your system there are many indicator that will show a response when something is wrong.

[antonsemrad]

Ok, the results were as high as 600 and as low as the 300's. In other words, the results were meaningless. X value? caco3, ca++? I don't know what these terms mean. Do I need to? Perhaps I should rephrase my question. As long as it is supersaturated why worry? Will corals grow better at 375 and high alk and or ph. Or at 475 on the lower end of the alk-ph range. Or can they ajust to there enviornment. And better yet wouldn't coral growth be a beter test kit. I guess I am ? the utility of the test kits.

[Boomer]

If that 600 was CaCO3, then .40 x 600 = 240 Ca

X value? caco3, ca++? I don't know what these terms mean. Do I need to?

Yes :D A kit may give the reading as CaCO3 or just as Calcium. It is like measuring something in cm or inches. An 8 ft 2 x 4 is not the same in numbers when measured in inches and cm :) 77F is the same as 25 C, etc. 600 ppm CaCO3 = 240 ppm Calcium

As long as it is supersaturated why worry?

It can go beyond that easily, and with a high pH and or Alk the calcium can precip out of water == Snowstorm, which can crash the pH and Alk.

Will corals grow better at 375 and high alk and or ph.

No, as far as calcium goes, better at higher Alk, pH normal. Meaning, Calcium above say 380 does not do anything as far as growth. Raising the Alk above NSW does causes slightly more growth according to some studies.

They can do well in a wide range but much better when the water parameters are more stable.

[antonsemrad]

Thanks for the quick responce. My lamotte expresses in ca++. I will look for this the in the future. Thanks for the tip. I agree about the stable water parameters. So I add every day in small amounts. I dont get doposits on my pumps, mabe slow buildup on my metal heaters (not glass). Ph is low. (stupid reactor) 7.8 to 8.1. Reactor drips are 6.5 and lime drips are at 12. Alk is at 4.5 (12.6dkh) Can oversupersaturation (is that a word?) cause "alk burn" or is it a stability thing. "Alk burn" opens a new can of worms and I think should be the subject of a new thred. But to come back around arn't these signs (precip,growth,ect) better indicators that the kits?

[Boomer]

Can oversupersaturation (is that a word?) cause "alk burn" or is it a stability thing. "Alk burn" opens a new can of worms and I think should be the subject of a new thred. But to come back around arn't these signs (precip,growth,ect) better indicators that the kits?

Saturated or over saturated deals with Ca++ not ALk. Seawater is no sat with respect to Alk. Alk "burn" is at very high Alk, usually due to OH-

[b]But to come back around arn't these signs (precip,growth,ect) better indicators that the kits?[b]

No, not even close :D

Your Alk of 4.5 meq / l is about as high as you want to go. Ca reactors are often the case with low pH due to the CO2 injection. Kalk usually can fix this, as long as you don't push your kalk/limewater to over drive the system and end up with to high a Alk. Lower pH will also slow down on the precip.

[antonsemrad]

Ok, I think we disagree. And you obviously know alot more about this than I do. So could you please explain. Alk plays a role at where ca++ becomes over saturated, right. (ph too!) And we agree that ca++ levels over say, 380 wont make or break ya. So do you think that my ca++ levels are below 380 or above? I think it got to be at least 380! If anything it tends to drift upward for various reasons. So I should be concerned about having to much right? I do sometimes take the lime off line and use soda to drop ca++ levels when I get sick of soaking heaters. (aim for 30ppm drop maybe once a year or so). Whats wrong with this strategy? Oh and could you please comment on OH- causing burn. How exactly does this happen? Thanks again!!!

[Billybeau1]

Ant. Get yourself a Salifert Calcium kit. I have no problems with mine. And give this a read. Good stuff.

A simplified guide to the relationship between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php

[antonsemrad]

I read that article when it came out and enjoyed it. However it does't adress "alk burn", and I don't see what a salifert calcium test kit will tell me that my dusty lamotte won't. The point of the thread is I think calcium test kits are a waste of time and $. And that I don't trust the results. Anyone share my opinion? If not why?

[antonsemrad]

Oh, and Billybeau1 have you ever tested your salifert agaist a different test kit? Can you get two tests to come out the same? If so why can't I?

[Billybeau1]

I have tested many brands of test kits. Salifert, Seachem, LaMotte, API, AS, Hagen......

On calcium, I have never got two kits to read the same. For that matter, I've never done two tests in a row from the same kit and got exactly the same result. Its called noise.

I understand your frustration with calcium test kits. I've been there. I said Salifert because out of all the tests I've tried, it seems to be the most consistant. For me anyway. I personally dont care if its off 20ppm either way. It tells me I'm close and short of me going out and spending $3000 on a piece of lab equipment, its good enough for me.

As far as calcium kits being a waste of time, I doubt you will get many to agree. I once changed salts and after a month found my calcium was through the roof. Did I loose any fish, no. Spent weeks cleaning equipment because of it.

Someone else I know couldnt figure out why his reef was doing poorly. He finally found out his calcium was under 300.

I do agree with one thing you said. If your tank looks good, it probably is good. :)

[Boomer]

Ok, I think we disagree

Disagree on what ?


Seawater is saturated with respect to Calcium carbonate, not Ca++

Alk plays a role at where ca++ becomes over saturated, right. (ph too!)

Not necessarily. If I add Calcium chloride I can get the Calcium way up, even to 1,000ppm. I can also add various buffers and raise the Ak quite high. We see this here all the time


And we agree that ca++ levels over say, 380 wont make or break ya.

Granted, but it is not in balance with other ions in seawater. Corals do not need much more Ca++ than this to grow correctly

I do sometimes take the lime off line and use soda to drop ca++ levels

What do you mean buy "soda"; baking soda, washing soda , soda water, there is a world of difference.

Yes, if the Ca++ is high you can increase the Al by adding buffers to drop Ca++


(aim for 30ppm drop maybe once a year or so).

What do mean drop once a year ? I f you are not using test kits to know where you are at or do not believe what they say, within reason, how do you know it has dropped 30 ppm. A reef tank can loose that much to corals in 1 week.

Oh and could you please comment on OH- causing burn. How exactly does this happen?

Kalk or lime is Calcium hydroxide. It is a very caustic chemical with a very, very high pH. It is the opposite of an acid and can burn. If dry kalk or lime water hits animals before it disperses it can burn them.

And I agree with Billy not just on Ca++ kits but some others are the same

[antonsemrad]

Boomer Thanks again, for being here for people like me!

We disagree on the need to test for Ca++

Ca++ at 1,000 ppm would affect alk levels I think.

I use baking soda (arm & hammer)

Mabe saying 30ppm is not quite appropriate. I add 1.5 meq of sodium bi
carbonate over the corse off about 10 days with no calcium to go along with it (lime water) The reason why I think its to high is because at the same ph and alk I get more precip on my heaters. Less is more weekly mg additions helps with this.(don't get me started on mg test kits)lol

Billyeau1, I have 10 buckets of salt in the garage from the same lot. Thanks for the tip on the salifert tests kits. Agreed its nice to have a test around, its a point of reference if nothing else. I thought that the color change on the salifert wasn't as nice as the lamotte. But I am no athority on calcium test kits! Perhaps in the distant future I will try out the salifert. lol.

[Billybeau1]

I dont push particuler brands of anything. I just say what works for me. LaMotte is a fine kit. I just prefer Salifert for calcium. :)

Every time I open a new bucket of salt, I test it for the big three before I put it in my tank. I've seen enough horror stories to make me cautious.

I think my fish appreciate it. :D

[Boomer]

We disagree on the need to test for Ca++

That's fine but you are disagreeing with about 99.9 % of the people in this hobby, to include Randy but that is still fine.

I might add that some Ca++ kits do come with ref. solutions so you can check the accuracy of the kit ;). Or you can get ref. solutions, HACH, LaMotte, SeaChem etc

An old saying, that still means something and has merit. If it is not broke don't fix it.

[antonsemrad]

So I am the one of the few. ?, how often do (did) you test? Am I really supposed to test every new bucket of salt? I would recomend to also but do people? How often would you recemend testing an estabilshed reef tank (for calcium that is)? I guess. Have one around, and use it somtimes, but I hate that thing, and I don't trust it either.

[Boomer]

I tested once a week and most batches of salt mix, pH, Alk, Mg, Ca and at timed PO4. I did not use hobby kits but have played with many of them.

Yes, almost all people I known of test for Ca ++, Alk, NO3- and many Mg++, PO4 and pH of course and often more than once a week. Some people just do not have a green thumb and need more tests to keep them in touch. Others like to test so they know what is going on and keep and some even graphically plot daily levels.

[antonsemrad]

I see. Thanks. Mabe i'll even dust of the lomotte. lol