outragous calcium level????!!??

[iamquockie]

60g tall w/30gal sump
trates 0
trites 0
ammonia 0
phospates 0
iodine ??
alk-?? medium (my test gives me a color grid and my tank result is in the middle)



I just tested my calcium level using a Hagan Test tube test and I stopped when I saw my Calcium level 600ppm or more. I stopped because I already know that 600ppm is rediculously high. What should I do????? Raise the alk? All I have is marine buffer that came with my alk test. My lettuce coral is shrinking more and more each day and its ugly but I don't want to lose it.

Appreciate it.

:mixed: :rolleye1: :mixed: :mixed: :mixed: :mixed:

[sir_dudeguy]

what salt are you using?

[reefshadow]

I've got to encourage you to buy some accurate reliable tests, first of all... seachem or salifert are good ones. You need to get an accurate number on both tests before anyone can really advise you correctly. I know, this hobby is a money pit.

You can raise alk with pure baking soda.

[jdieck]

You need to know the alkalinity level, grid is not enough. For Calcium double check the test with a more accurate kit.

Have you added any calcium additives, How did calcium got there? and as sir asks, what salt are you using? is it Oceanic?

[Peter Eichler]

If your calcium level is acurate I would suspect your alkalinity is quite low which is probably causing PH fluctuations and stressing things out moreso than the elevated calcium levels. Get something to test the PH, it's far more important than other test kits you have.

I'm guessing you're using straight tapwater rather than RO/DI water which is probably making your buffering capacity and calcium and who knows what else screwy.

Lastly, don't use baking soda to raise your alkalinity. It will raise your PH and alk for a short time but in the long run is not very effective and can actually cause calcium levels to rise. Also if your PH level is low they will just drop again within a few days. It's also not smart to use Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) without proper test kits to see how it's affacting your water since it's fairly easy to overdose it. You need a something with various carbonates and bicarbonates in it. I've always liked Marine Buffer from Seachem. This is assuming that your DKH/Alkalinity is in fact low. Get yourself some better test kits and then go from there.

[affan]

Why did you stop at 600? I would've gone all the way! :smokin:

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7822725#post7822725 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Lastly, don't use baking soda to raise your alkalinity. It will raise your PH and alk for a short time but in the long run is not very effective and can actually cause calcium levels to rise. Also if your PH level is low they will just drop again within a few days.

Sorry but I think you need to research this a bit more as it is not really accurate.

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7822754#post7822754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Sorry but I think you need to research this a bit more as it is not really accurate.


You might want to tell me what "this" is considering I made more than one proclamation in what you quoted. Perhaps telling me what you disagree with and why I'm wrong would work.

[reefshadow]

I wasn't suggesting he raise the alk, rather telling him what he could use if needed. The test kit buffer is probably like 20 mll or something, lol. BUT if the calcium is that high, the alk is probably depressed.

The commercial buffers ARE baking and washing soda. You can save about 40 bucks a pound going to the supermarket rather than the lfs. Plus it is food grade versus some unknown grade of product. I've also heard that some commercial buffers contain borate, not the best thing... Baking soda alone has a tendency to decrease ph, while washing soda will raise it. You can make a mix of the two tailored to your tank's range, I like a 5 to 1 ratio of b.s. to w.s. . Alkalinity buffers alone will not cause the calcium to rise unless you are using kalkwasser, which isn't good for raising levels anyhow, rather maintaining them.

End of story you really need to get some decent kits asap or else you're just totally in the dark as to what is going on chemically. Don't guess, you can make things much worse.

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7822940#post7822940 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefshadow
I wasn't suggesting he raise the alk, rather telling him what he could use if needed. The test kit buffer is probably like 20 mll or something, lol. BUT if the calcium is that high, the alk is probably depressed.

The commercial buffers ARE baking and washing soda. You can save about 40 bucks a pound going to the supermarket rather than the lfs. Plus it is food grade versus some unknown grade of product. I've also heard that some commercial buffers contain borate, not the best thing... Baking soda alone has a tendency to decrease ph, while washing soda will raise it. You can make a mix of the two tailored to your tank's range, I like a 5 to 1 ratio of b.s. to w.s. . Alkalinity buffers alone will not cause the calcium to rise unless you are using kalkwasser, which isn't good for raising levels anyhow, rather maintaining them.

End of story you really need to get some decent kits asap or else you're just totally in the dark as to what is going on chemically. Don't guess, you can make things much worse.

I just thought with him not knowing his PH levels and our skepticism with the accuracy of his test kits adding baking soda would be a bit premature. It's been a while since I've used the Seachem buffer but now that I think about it I bet it has borate in it. Doesn't their salt?

Didn't mean to step on any toes, I've just never liked the idea of throwing off your balance by just using sodium bicarbonate or carbonate without really knowing what's going on and why you're having the problem.

Since I was told to do some research... ;)

I came up with this on an internet search. Hopefully it's accurate despite it beeing a promotion for their buffer. I always had great luck with their line but it looks like I really need to do some research about the borate that may be in their products.

http://www.seachem.com/support/Articles/MarinepH.html

[Peter Eichler]

Lastly, is it even possible to have a 600ppm calcium level without adding outrageous amounts of calcium carbonate? I wouldn't think so unless the salt he's using has really high levels as well as his makeup water.

[bubblethumper]

Ok, let's step back a moment and realistically, rationally think about this.

A little bit of common sense goes a long way. And afterall, the most simple explanation is usually the correct one.

My guess is that (no offense) the original poster doesn't know how to use the test kit (titration is easily misunderstood). Or quite possibly that he has an old test kit. Still.... most likely explanation is misuse of the test kit.

To the original poster: take a water sample to your LFS and have them verify your calcium readings. Then you'll know have a point to work from (without spending money on more kits).

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7822916#post7822916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
You might want to tell me what "this" is considering I made more than one proclamation in what you quoted. Perhaps telling me what you disagree with and why I'm wrong would work.

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Lastly, don't use baking soda to raise your alkalinity. It will raise your PH and alk for a short time but in the long run is not very effective and can actually cause calcium levels to rise. Also if your PH level is low they will just drop again within a few days.

first off, adding baking soda will actually lower your ph in the short term. It is very effective at raising alk, and there is no way adding baking soda alone can raise ca levels.

you are correct in that he shoudn't add anything until he knows his alk. but if he confirms that ca level, then his alk will be needing all the help it can get.

original poster needs to get an alk. titration kit

[jdieck]

First I want to support that double checking test readings out of wack is always a good practice as you might be trying to correct something that do not really exist.
As Anthony (Twon8) mentions above baking soda is a very effective Alkalinity supplement but has a couple of areas that have to be considered:

a) It will slightly reduce PH temporarily, once the CO2 released during the reactions is vented out of the system the PH returns to it's original level, usually within 12 to 24 hours. This reduces the chances of a precipitation and makes it a bit safer to use when your PH is normal to high.

b) It will slightly increase the level of Sodium ions in the water. Without water changes and over the long run (a year) this might throw things out of balance so it is recommended to counter balance that by adding Calcium Chloride as a Calcium supplement. This will increase the Chloride Ions which will return the Sodium and Chloride back to balance.
The amounts of both supplements can be calculated so a balanced addition of Calcium and Alkalinity can be achieved (20 ppm Ca per 1 meq/lt of Alkalinity) and at the same time maintain the right balance of Sodium and Chloride Ions, this is how most two part additives were born.

c) Baking soda will not affect Calcium levels so a Calcium supplement is recommended; see (b) above, specifically Calcium Chloride either Anhydrous (TurboCalcium, Peladow or ESV CaCl) or Hydrated (Dow Flake)

d) It will not affect Magnesium so eventually it has to be added preferably in the form of Magnesium Sulfate Hexahydrate (Epsom Salts) or a mix of it with Magnesium Chloride (Kent's Tech-M) which will help bring back the Sulfate Ions in balance with the Sodium and Chloride Ions added with the combo of Baking Soda and Calcium Chloride.

Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) can be baked at 350 *F for one hour to turn it into Soda Ash (Washing Soda or Sodium Carbonate) by driving the CO2 out of it. Without the CO2 it will substantially increase the PH temporarily until aeration in the tank returns the CO2 level back to balance. Again usually within 12 to 24 hours when the PH returns to its original levels.

So overall this method of addition will not affect PH permanently. If you want to do so you have two alternatives.
a) Improve aeration with fresh air in your tank to drive excess CO2 off (My preferred method)

b) Add alkalinity supplements that increase your Borate. Borate will tend to drive the PH toward the 8.3 level but IMO if excessive may create Borate Ions unbalance. Borate do not get consumed like carbonates and because most salts already have natural Borate levels you may create an unnatural level; most alkalinity test kits will include them as part of the carbonate alkalinity test measure then skewing your reading toward the high side.
Some alkalinity supplements, to regulate PH contain were originally designed for fish only tanks and contain a very high level of Phosphates. (about 6% of Seachem Supplement is Borate) while others are more balanced (Kent contains only about 21 ppm of Borate) SO for reef tanks as I mentioned my preference will be aeration but if you have to use and alkalinity supplement, one with lower Borate content like Kento or Warner marine will be my preference unless your tank is a Fish only tank then Seachem's will keep your PH more stable.

As usual if you need to maintain your levels you can use a balanced addition like mentioned in (b) above, a two part supplement, use Kalk or a Calcium Reactor. If you need to make adjustments do not use Kalk or the reactor to do so, try commercial supplements that individually only affect either Calcium, Alkalinity or Magnesium as your case might be and you can use the chemistry calculator to determine the amounts.

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chem_calc3.html

Enjoy!

[iamquockie]

well here we go.

* I add ro/di water
* I use instant ocean salt
* PH is 8.0 after lights out, 8.2-8.3 lights on

PH doesnt make sense, I tested that right after I got that stupid calcium reading. I dosed calcium a couple days ago but it was only 1/4 of what the instructions said. I.E. 1 tsp per 50 gal, I added 1/4 tsp-- My LFS said with the amount of softies in the tank, (non pulsing xenia, tons of pulsing xenia, pom pom xenia, yellow polyps, lettuce coral, brain, zoas, shrooms, frogspawn) they all are doing fine. This is the first time I dosed it in this 60. I used to dose it in my 30g about once every week and half. I used to take my water to the LFS so they can test calcium since he does it for me for free 99.

I will get an alk testing kit. The one i have was inherited and I swear I must have spend close to a $100 in friggon test kits alone hahahahahahahhahahahaha

[iamquockie]

anyone have any experiences with the hagan ca kit?

[iamquockie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7823045#post7823045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bubblethumper
Ok, let's step back a moment and realistically, rationally think about this.

A little bit of common sense goes a long way. And afterall, the most simple explanation is usually the correct one.

My guess is that (no offense) the original poster doesn't know how to use the test kit (titration is easily misunderstood). Or quite possibly that he has an old test kit. Still.... most likely explanation is misuse of the test kit.

To the original poster: take a water sample to your LFS and have them verify your calcium readings. Then you'll know have a point to work from (without spending money on more kits).

okay-no offense taken but really--I followed instructions step by step--it says add this, wait 30 seconds add that--shake well then wait 30 seconds---solution should be pink. add in bottle #3 drop by drop and mix test tube well until the solution turns into a deep violet color. multiply number of drops of bottle #3 it took to turn the solution violet by 20 and that is ur calcium level /ppm. :eek2:

[jdieck]

What product did you used to add Calcium (the 1/4 tsp/50 gal)?
1/4 tsp per 50 gal of any of the additives I know is not enough to get you to that Calcium level if you are using IO salt.
We need to find out where that Ca come from or shall assume that the reading might not be right.

[reefshadow]

Thanks Jdieck- I think you already stated this briefly- My understanding is that the problem with borate is that it is not utilised by corals to build their skeletons, so when borate is excessive you are getting a high alk reading that isn't actually doing anything for your corals, when in reality they need LOTS of carbonates that they can actually utilise. So, I guess it's ok for fish only tanks where enough carbonates to keep the ph high and stable are the primary concern.

I would not believe anything that any supplement company puts out as fact. They are into it for profit. Of course, if you really want to put borate into your alk buffer, you can use 20 mule team borax from the supermarket, but i don't recommend it!

I will never change my opinion that baking and/or washing soda is the way to go. Anything else is just wasting money and MAY not be as safe.

So, I think the consensus for you, iamquockie, is to get decent test kits and then go from there.

Oh wow, that's what I said in my first post, lol. :)

[iamquockie]

Its CA from my LFS. Brand is "fish paradise" I don't know if he manufactured it somewhere or he probably just took it out of a 5 gal bucket and sold it in little jars for profit. When I dosed it in my 30gal I did 1/4 tsp per day for 4 days to bring my CA level up to abt 410ppm. That number is accurate because the LFS checked it. From there I had to dose it every week and half to keep it up there. I'm going to take a sample of water to the LFS to have him check it out. I moved and the nearest lfs is about 45 min away.. not a exactly easy to get there when you are working 12 hrs a day.

[kybreos]

The Hagen Calcium test does not work, plain and simple.. I have it and it always tests 500 or higher, yet when i go to the petstore and they use salifert its always in the low 400s. get a bettter test kit or use LFS.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7826036#post7826036 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iamquockie
Its CA from my LFS. Brand is "fish paradise" I don't know if he manufactured it somewhere or he probably just took it out of a 5 gal bucket and sold it in little jars for profit.

Well difficult to know if it does anything else other than Calcium but for Calcium assuming it is the most concentrated supplement (Calcium Chloride Anydrous Powder) the amount you added 1/4tsp per 50 gal will only increase Calcium by a ridiculous amount of 3 ppm so if you do not have any other potential source of Calcium into your system (Using RO/DI and IO salt) then my conslucion is that the test is out of wack (As many others guessed above).
Lets see what the re-test result will be, for the time being I would not add anything until we are certain of the correct measurments.

[iamquockie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7826337#post7826337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kybreos
The Hagen Calcium test does not work, plain and simple.. I have it and it always tests 500 or higher, yet when i go to the petstore and they use salifert its always in the low 400s. get a bettter test kit or use LFS.

are all calcium tests such a pain in the arse? I mean "add one drop, mix well. Keep adding single drops until the solution turns a certain color?"

Welp, the results are going to have to wait till tommorrow. I get off of work after the LFS closes.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7827576#post7827576 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iamquockie
are all calcium tests such a pain in the arse? I mean "add one drop, mix well. Keep adding single drops until the solution turns a certain color?"

Welp, the results are going to have to wait till tommorrow. I get off of work after the LFS closes.
An accurate Calcium kit is difficult to manufacture as it seems that the range of Calcium concentration is usually too high for the protocols followed. Some recomendations I read to lower that concentration and get a more accurate result, call for diluting the sample 50/50 with distilled or RO/DI water, then test and multiply the result by two.

[iamquockie]

I had some test strips that used to be somewhat accurate, I can't tell exact PPM measurements but I can see if it is high or low, for the most part they are in the ballpark. I will try that to give me an idea. haha I feel so old school. BTW thanks jdieck and all u other posters. You'd think I'd know better by now, but all I had problems with is algae and stuff like that in the past.

[jdieck]

You are welcome, just be patient and keep on learning.

[iamquockie]

I learn stuff everyday. I am staying on this forum to be as informed as possible to prevent me from making an expensive mistake.

[iamquockie]

okay now I feel stupid. In the midst of all the madness I decided to do a salinity check last night. It was 1.034. Someone must have been pouring saltwater in to replenish my evaporated water. ***?? anyway, diluted it down to 1.025 where I usually keep it and everything went back to normal. Calcium is about 300ppm--a little low, and alk to be tested today. dang my stupid calcium test, dang my stupidity, and thanks too all the RC'ers

[jdieck]

Good lesson home critters are OK.

[reefshadow]

Well, at least your livestock is ok, and you did figure out what was going on, that's good! I think it's a learning curve for everyone.

Now you need to put the hurt down and whip some buns, then give the "caretakers" a little lesson in basics, lol.

[iamquockie]

omg it does say saltwater on one container and drinking water on the other container. Yea the critters are okay. I did a two part diluting so there wont be a drastic change in salinity just in case. Well I guess the old saying is true.. If you want htings done right, do it yourself.