Kalk Reactor = cloudy water

[coral_reefer_25]

The water in my tank has been cloudy ever since I got my Kalk reactor up and running. At first I thought that I was just mixing the solution too many times per day so I backed it off. Now I only stir the mix every 4 hours, and the pump only runs for 5 minutes each time.

When you're looking at the tank straight on, you can't really tell that the water is cloudy except for above the rocks where you can see the black background.

However if you look down the long end of the tank, it's quite cloudy.

I have added a simple HOB Power Filter to the sump in hopes of clearing it up, but it hasn't helped much, if at all.

Any suggestions?

[crumbletop]

What is your Ca, Alk and pH? How are you adding the kalkwasser (how much at a time, and how often)? Is the mixture that you are putting in milky white, or more clear?

[coral_reefer_25]

It's not milky white...but it's not totall clear either. All of my levels are fine. I'm dosing via a DIY Kalk reactor and a float switch that tops off the tank automatically. It pumps fresh RO/DI water into the mid-section of the reactor, which forces the buffered water out the top of the reactor and that water goes into the sump until the float switch is deactivated.

I'd say that it tops off once every 2-3 hours, and the pump runs for about 5 or 6 seconds each time.

[coral_reefer_25]

By the way, I'm using Mrs. Wages...

[crumbletop]

The actual parameters are important. Things can be within the "normal range" but if the alk and Ca are out of balance you can get cloudy water. So post the actual values for Ca, Alk and pH.

Re: the topoff -- what volume flows during that 5 or 6 seconds? What kind of pump are you pushing the topoff with?

[coral_reefer_25]

I'll go measure those things now.

It's not pushing much at all. It requires very little to cut that switch off. I'd say about one cup. The pump is a MaxiJet 1200, and it's at the bottom of a 6 gallon bucket, pushing water up and over, and into the Kalk reactor. The gravity from the column of water in the reactor, above where the inlet is for the fresh water is pushing against the pump as well, so it's not an easy job for that pump.

[crumbletop]

Here are some possible reasons for the cloudy water:

1) if you are pushing too much kalkwasser into the tank at a time, you can get a locally high pH (>9) and if the flow isn't great enough to dillute that out pretty quickly you can get a precipitate of calcium carbonate -- the white stuff.

2) if your Alkalinity is at the upper ranges for a proper balance with the Ca level, you can get a precipitate of calcium carbonate when you run the kalk in.

3) I think the same can happen if the pH is high and the Ca level is at the upper end of a balance with the pH -- adding kalk can cause calcium to precipitate out.

Off the top of my head I may have those jumbled up, but I think they are on target.

[crumbletop]

An MJ1200 I think pushes about 80 gph at 4' of head (measured from the top of the water in the bucket to where the pump dumps out. Thats about 2 cups so that's probably okay for the volume. If the distance is less then you will have more volume pushed -- so if you have say 2' between the top of the ro/di resevoir and the outlet for the MJ you could be pushing as much as a quart at a time. That would be a bit much for the size of your tank/sump.

One further question about the volume infused (while we are waiting on test results) -- is this dumping into your sump, and if so, what is the size of the return chamber?

[VikeBron]

Be careful not to overdose. I killed $1000 worth of corals a year ago while trying to get the right setting. Are you using a pinpoint or checking manually?
Steve

[coral_reefer_25]

And the magic numbers are...

pH = 8.0
dKH = 10
Ca = 520ppm

[coral_reefer_25]

Vikebron, I'm checking everything manually. The pH has never been a problem.

[coral_reefer_25]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7840201#post7840201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crumbletop
An MJ1200 I think pushes about 80 gph at 4' of head (measured from the top of the water in the bucket to where the pump dumps out. Thats about 2 cups so that's probably okay for the volume. If the distance is less then you will have more volume pushed -- so if you have say 2' between the top of the ro/di resevoir and the outlet for the MJ you could be pushing as much as a quart at a time. That would be a bit much for the size of your tank/sump.

One further question about the volume infused (while we are waiting on test results) -- is this dumping into your sump, and if so, what is the size of the return chamber?

The bucket and Kalk reactor are about 14 feet away from the sump/tank. The pump is on the very bottom of the bucket, and the top of the reactor where the buffered water leaves to go toward the tank is about 2 feet above the top of the bucket. I'm assuming it is pushing water up about 4 feet. But that head pressure is taking into consideration the volume of water inside the tube...for instance if you were using a MJ1200 as a return pump. That rate at 4' of head pressure is calculated by how much water is inside the 1/2" (roughly) pipe coming off the pump.

In my case, the pump is pushing water through about 3 feet of 1/2" tubing, and then it goes into the reactor which is 4" in diameter. There is a column of water above where the fresh water comes in that is about 20" tall, give or take. Calculating what the pump is dumping into the sump is skewed by the fact that there is roughly 2 feet of headpressure from the weight of the water in a 4" diameter pipe.

If I take the end of the kalk carrying pipe out of the water in the sump and watch...it isn't pushing out much more than 1 cup. The float switch is very sensitive...therefore it shuts the pump off after about 5-6 seconds.

The return chamber holds about 4 gallons I'd say. But the kalk enters the sump at the opposite end, in efforts to dilute it a little more before it heads to the tank.

[crumbletop]

Unless the pump is above the water level, you calculate the head pressure from the top of the water resevoir, not from where the pump is. Regardless, it looks like the volume is okay. The reason for asking about the return chamber size, is this is typically where the float switch is installed and thus water level fluctuations in a small chamber mean more frequent, smaller volume top offs, and larger return chambers (length x width) will push less frequent, larger volume top offs. My top off fires about every 10 minutes or so.

So based on your numbers, it looks like your Ca is too high and you are precipitating calcium carbonate. That will bring _down_ your pH. Balanced calcium at your current alkalinity is around 430.

[coral_reefer_25]

How do I get the calcium level down? And where can I find a "balance" chart?

[crumbletop]

There are a bunch of good chemistry articles here. Scroll down the page to the calcium articles.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102605

I'm not sure how to get the Ca down except to wait. I've never had calcium that high, so I haven't had to research it. It isn't dangerously elevated, it is likely just elevated enough to cause problems with your kalk dosing.

Some of the articles on the linked page have some "balance" information. I just plugged your numbers into the reef chemistry calculator (http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html) and it tells you what the balanced number would be for a given Ca or Alk. I dose Randy's two-part for the majority of my Ca and Alk needs, and run kalkwasser topoff cause my ph runs a little low. If I had to guess, I'd say that your Ca likely got high because of dosing based on the directions on supplement bottles (the "two capfulls, twice a week" kind of thing). Dosing based on actual measurements and using the chemistry calculator to see how much to dose works well and keeps things in balance.

I surely am no expert at this. The above links I have found to be very helpful, though. Hope this helps...

Jack

[coral_reefer_25]

After retesting my water, here is the rundown again. It's more accurate this time. Last night I was in a rush. (Sorry guys)

This was tested at 10:55AM CDT. The lights on my tank don't come on until 2PM.

pH = 7.8
Alk = 8 dKH
Ca = 500 ppm

I'm getting ready to do a 6g water change. I'm using a sea salt that contains calcium. Is the water change going to make it worse?

[crumbletop]

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of a water change to bring it down. I would be cautious with bringing it down too fast, though. The corals get used to the levels and rapid changes can cause problems.

Test the new water before you do the water change. If the Ca in the new water is high then it will keep your tank water high...

[coral_reefer_25]

I just tested the new water. The Ca level is 440 ppm. It's almost like I need to use a mix that doesn't contain calcium, or at least doesn't contain THAT much calcium.

I still don't have a good understanding of how to maintain a balanced level of Ca and Alk.

What about adding magnesium? Shouldn't that help to lower the Ca level and raise the Alk level? Trust me, I'm trying to understand it, but it hasn't sunken in yet.

[crumbletop]

No need to add Mg at this point. Also, the Ca level in your salt sounds okay depending on what the alk is. Here is a good article to read. I'll try to look for others later -- I'm heading out with the family for a little while.

Reef Aquarium Water Parameters:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

[coral_reefer_25]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7843937#post7843937 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crumbletop
No need to add Mg at this point. Also, the Ca level in your salt sounds okay depending on what the alk is. Here is a good article to read. I'll try to look for others later -- I'm heading out with the family for a little while.

Reef Aquarium Water Parameters:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php


Should I have tested the Alk level in the new water?

[crumbletop]

Yeah. For the purposes of trying to get a hang on the water parameters in your tank, it would be good to know the Alk and Ca, since that is what you are mainly struggling with. Your alk (if the morning reading is correct) is a bit low, and the Ca is a bit high. I'll bet your salt has a reasonably balanced Ca and Alk -- 440 is fine for the Ca -- much higher than the IO salt I use.

When I was first trying to maintain consistent and "ideal" params for my reef inhabitants I started off by using stuff like the seachem marine buffer. My alk got out of control doing that (not too high, but high). Then I realized that it was better to measure the values and then use something like Randy's two part or a commercial product like b-ionic two-part. That has worked very well, and many successful reefers do that. I use the two-part to dose when necessary based on the measured values and then use kalk-topoff to maintain Ca and Alk (and pH) a little better. My pH tends to run a bit low.

Here are a couple more articles that should be useful for your purposes:

Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

[coral_reefer_25]

Crap. I've already changed the water...I didn't pull an Alk reading on it.

I also emptied and cleaned my Kalk reactor and refilled it with water. I figured out today that it holds 2.5 gallons of fresh water, so I put in 5 tablespoons of Mrs. Wages. It may need more in a couple of days, but at least I know I didn't put in too much.

Unfortunately, the water change didn't do much at all for the cloudiness. It's still just as cloudy as it was before the water change.

I'm going to look at the articles. Actually I've already read the first one, but the one on pH seems helpful.

[coral_reefer_25]

Well, after the water change and emptying/refilling the Kalk reactor, and adding only 5 tablespoons of Mrs. Wages, my tank parameters have drastically improved.

This afternoon when I got home from work I found the tank water about 98% totally clear, the pH was 8.3, Alk was 11 dKH, and Calcium was still between 500 and 520ppm. Although the 11dKH was a heck of a lot better balance with the calcium than the 8 dKH it was yesterday morning.

I'm going to try to test again in the morning before work to see what the params are after the lights have been off for several hours.

Thanks for all of the help. Those articles, although somewhat confusing, were a help. Now I just have to really watch my levels for the next couple of weeks to hopefully determine when I need to add more Mrs. Wages.

[coral_reefer_25]

I tested the water again this morning at 6:30CDT....the lights have been off since 9PM.

pH is 8.2
Alk is 11 dKH

Ca wasn't tested, but my pH has never been better in the mornings!

[crumbletop]

Sounds good. The cloudiness should continue to clear. I'd keep an eye on the params daily for the next several days to see if any negative trends develop.

[coral_reefer_25]

Yeah, I'm going to test again on Thursday morning. The water is clearer now than I've seen it in months.

[jdieck]

Ryan:

After reading the all the posts I can conlude that you were overdosing Kalk creatin gthe recipitation (cloudiness). By the way precipitation may lower the PH under certain circumstances.
It seems that by using less powder in the last load your addition was reduced below the precipitation point but given your latest readings it may still more than what your tank consumption is.

Here are some notes that might help you:
a) Kalk adds Calcium and Alkalinity. For every 1 meq/lt (2.8 dKh) of alkalinity it adds 20 ppm of Calcium. It just happens that this ratio is the same as the ratio of consumption. The issue is if that if you are using a salt that is not balanced for your water changes, the unbalance will continue. As an example Oceanic has more calcium and Magnesium than it should and less alkalinity than it should. Tropic Marin Pro has about the right amount of Calcium and Magnesium but too little alkalinity. IO has the right alkalinity but low Calcium and Magnesium. Get the point? so even if you achieve a balance in your aquarium you are going to unbalance it again with a water change.
To prevent this to happen you need to balance your new water mix before you add it to your aquarium. In other words supplement your freshly made water as required to reach your targets for Calcium Alkalinity and Magnesium. To do this I would recommend using Baking Soda to adjust Alkalinity, Calcium Chloride Powder (Peladow, Dow flake, TurboCalcium, ESV CaCL etc) to adjust the Calcium and a commercial magnesium additive (Kent Tech-M) to balance Magnesium. The calculator will help you to do so. Once you get familiar with the readings on your salt and find out that each time you make the mix you add similar amounts of supplements you may not even need to test, just add the supplements to the freshly made mix.

b) Your tank consumption of alkalinity and calcium is lower than the amount of kalk you are adding to replace evaporation. In other words you need to reduce the volume of Kalk and whatever additional volume is needed to match evaporation should be added as fresh water (RO/DI). To do this you may need to use RO/DI in your top off and set up the reactor with a controlled doser pump or use gravity to feed it trough a small valve that regulates the drip so you can adjust the Kalk addition independent of your evaporation.

Hope this info helps.
Jose

[coral_reefer_25]

I kind of figured I'd end up buying a different brand of mix to get this right. As of this morning, the water seems like it's getting cloudy again. I didn't have time to test the parameters this morning before I left for work, but I will test them when I get home.

I guess I'll buy some Instant Ocean mix this time.

Anybody want to trade some Oceanic Natural Sea Mix for some Instant Ocean???

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7869734#post7869734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coral_reefer_25
I kind of figured I'd end up buying a different brand of mix to get this right. As of this morning, the water seems like it's getting cloudy again. I didn't have time to test the parameters this morning before I left for work, but I will test them when I get home.

I guess I'll buy some Instant Ocean mix this time.

Anybody want to trade some Oceanic Natural Sea Mix for some Instant Ocean???
You can always mix your water using half and half. Oceanic will increase the Calcium and Magnesium on the IO which will provide the alkalinit that Oceanic miss. You still need to adjust your mixed water levels but you will need to supplement less

[coral_reefer_25]

True...I suppose I could do that.

Like I said, I'll take another look at things this evening.

Thanks for your help. We have a club meeting coming up on the 13th. Hopefully I can get a pretty good deal on some IO....if Aquatic Critter still carries it. I think they may only sell Oceanic now....???

[jdieck]

Forgot to mention that if the water is getting cloudy again you may turn off the reactor. Your Alk and Calcium was high anyway.

[coral_reefer_25]

Yeah....I'll try topping off with pure RO/DI for a few days and watch what happens.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7872111#post7872111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coral_reefer_25
Yeah....I'll try topping off with pure RO/DI for a few days and watch what happens.
While you are at it. Test your alkalinity and then test again after 24 and 48 hours during the time you will be adding no supplements at all or making any water changes. This will help you determine your base line daily consumption making easier to calculate how much lime water you need to add to replace that consumption.
160 milliliters of saturated limewater will increase 10 gal of aquarium water by 0.5 dKh
So say if you find out that your daily consumption is 1 dKh then you will need to add 320 milliliters per day of Lime water for every 10 gallons in your tank.