Worst Birthday Of My Life!

[Gordonious]

HELP! I am seriously hurting today. Today is my birthday and will probably be the worst birthday of my life. Two days ago I bought myself a birthday present, a copperbanded butterflyfish.

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I did my research, I talked with the shop owner, I made them feed it so I could see it eat, acclimated for 30-40 minutes with a drip line, fed it live brine the next day, and watched it carefully. This morning I woke up to find it had bruises all over its body.

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August 8th 10:00</CENTER>

Today I had to take the last exam for my condensed summer chemistry course, so I could not deal with the problem right away. When I returned home from taking, and probably failing, my exam the fish was on it’s side at the bottom. I lifted him out with my bare hand and set him into a tank I have been putting my water changes into.(it has aragonite, a heater, and a powerhead) For the moment he is still barely alive I believe as he keeps shifting positions in the tank, but is surely on his way out.

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August 8th 3pm(A moment ago)</CENTER>


The only thing I think could have possibly happened was the fish was either diseased when I got it or tormented to death by my convict gobies. My Ammonia and Nitrite readings are at 0 and the Nitrates are less then 5ppm. The temp is normal, but my salinity has been slightly high. I had hoped that the acclimation time would be alright. The only question I have about my tanks chemistry is my tanks PH. My animals have been fine for the most part however all I have is extremely hardy stuff and a Yellow Gorgonian. The reason I question the PH began when the LFS tested it and it came up a little off; however they were using a test strip that tests for multiple things. After they used the test strip they then used some indicator from the same company that makes my test kit and it showed up normal. I went out and purchased a second indicator kit from a second company, RedSea, and with that it shows up slightly high.

I have been trying desperately, but patiently, to get my tanks back on track this summer and I seem to be going no where, but down hill. I really would like to know what exactly caused the demise of my birthday present, if anyone has any ideas please chime in. If anyone local could spare a little bit of time and take a look at my water it would be greatly appreciated.(pm me please) Also please look at my plans for my tank so I don’t make a huge mistake in the near future http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=899673

[chefthomasr]

I cannot offer you any advice. But I feel your pain man. So sorry your CBB isn't doing so good.

[flameangel88]

Sorry for your lost. Acclimation of 30-40 min sounds too quick and most recommend you float the bag in the tank for 30 min then start the drip process for a total of 2-3 hours. I've added fishes in the past and never to be seen again and can't even find the skeleton.

[STEELERFAN747]

I agree, I usually have the bag float in the tank 30-60 minutes then begin adding water and I too have had loses. However I dont feel your situation is due with how you acclimated but rather stress or disease.

Sorry about your loss.

Try to have a happy birthday anyway.

[zemuron114]

you only need to temp acclimate for 20 min tops. It shouldn't take longer then that since there isn't alot of water in the bag.
If it is coming from the LFS then a drip of no more then an hour will be perfectly fine. The only reason why we drip is to stabalize PH. The PH will not drop much if at all on the ride home (unless you live 5 hours away from the LFS) I drip for 6 hours after i receive shipments from Australia only because the PH is around 6.5-7.0 when i get them (30 hour bag time).. any longer it is just repetitive and will just stress them out longer.

It sounds like you got a bad one... They have a semi-poor survival rate anyway, but the ones from the phillipines never last long.

:( sorry for the loss...

[Gordonious]

It swam into and around my tank as if it has just found a new spot in the ocean. It investigated everything and seemed to settle in fine happily eating the next day. Acclimation could have contributed to the stressed, but if it were the main cause I would have thought I would have seen him extremely shy in a corner never zipping about the tank.

These fish are often said to have died from starvation, but when they fed him at the store he only grabbed a couple of pieces, so I think he was still pretty full. I also fed him as much brine as he would eat even allowing a bit of brine to swim around when he looked content and full.

I am learning towards thinking my tank chemistry is ok for the most part and I should not have even worried when a test strip said something was up. At the moment though I am scared to do anything and questioning how far my tanks will ever get. I do not want to run out and buy any more text kits or indicators, nor do I went to spend the money on a PH meter which I will use for all of a week and then it will be worthless to me.

I want to set up some probes in my tank attached to a DAQ attached to my PC. I would like to program my PC to monitor and record the chemistry of my tank constantly and eventually program it with alerts when things are not right. I have little need for a commercial controller as my lights and other components are already controlled by the PC using X-10 devices. I just want a better eye on the chemistry.

[nathan_unsane]

man if you figure how to run your tank chemistry by your PC, you may never have to work again...

i know i would love to have a setup like that

[Slickdonkey]

Indeed, if you find a way to replace your test kits with a PC I'm all ears.

But really, how much effort is it to test water parameters every few days, or once a week?

[Gordonious]

How quickly do we try to make changes in our system and how quickly do things normally turn from bad to disastrous? I have read about people, and know at least one personally, that were in the hobby with well established systems for years that all of a sudden one small thing happens at it's all over. Kids unplugging heaters to plug in there video game systems or feeding fish Peanut butter and Jelly sandwhiches. Get used to a routine of mixing the salt into the RO/DI water the next day in the same bucket with a power head and a heater, but one day do a water change before you put the salt in. A reliable heater that has worked wonders for year gets bumped accidentally and all of a sudden raise your tank temp close to 100*F. All of the above I have heard happen with disastrous results. Roommate burns some food and leaves the window open to air the place out, which happens to be next to the reef tank and it's below freezing outside. People quit the hobby and give up on even doing fish tanks for life for less tragic events then these. A lot of these things with in the mater of 30 minutes could destroy a delicate reef tank and could happen at any time. I am not bothered by testing the Nitrate cycle or looking at the temperature in my tank. It does bother me though that all of us just cross our fingers that our equipment we have works, nothing unexpected happens, and that the tests we do once every 2-3 weeks we hope will alert us to any problems.

With my tanks I get almost obsessive compulsive, mostly because I love the animals I keep and they mean the world to me. I run my room almost like a lab and clean everything repeatedly. I hate technology however I work with it every day of my life and know more about it then most people. I am going to figure out how to make this work. I will never trust or count on a computer to do anything for me, but with reef keeping I believe it is best to remove as many risks as possible and to backup everything wherever it is feasible.

[flameangel88]

In the beginning I test the parameters everyday then every week and now every 2 weeks especially seeing everybody look happy in there. I just get lazy and there's no other excuse I can give and I know the para can change overnight.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7902336#post7902336 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slickdonkey


But really, how much effort is it to test water parameters every few days, or once a week?

[Slickdonkey]

I feel your pain. All I'm saying is you won't find a way to test ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, calcium, alkalinity, etc with your PC.

But in reality you don't need to test these all the time anyway once you know how your tank behaves.

[RobbyG]

LOL work will cure you of that obsessive behavior :) Once you are finished with school your time will be so limited that you just learn to relax and take it in stride.

As for Automation, that's my goal, what you need to keep a reef tank safe is redundancy in all major systems and a method to alert you when something is wrong. For now a controler and SMS messaging seem to be the best bets. Forget a PC, you don't want to come home and see your Tank dead and the PC Crashed with a Blue Screen ;) Windoz is just too unreliable

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7902587#post7902587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gordonious

With my tanks I get almost obsessive compulsive, mostly because I love the animals I keep and they mean the world to me. I run my room almost like a lab and clean everything repeatedly. I hate technology however I work with it every day of my life and know more about it then most people. I am going to figure out how to make this work. I will never trust or count on a computer to do anything for me, but with reef keeping I believe it is best to remove as many risks as possible and to backup everything wherever it is feasible.

[Gordonious]

I have a PC dedicated to my salt system which I have just run X-10 devices on and web cams in the past. SMS messaging was part of the plan. I really don't have the money on a controller and think they are more then I need and way to expensive. All I want is the information on my computer. Then I or anyone can see the info on my website to check in on things, log it all, and look at it easily with graphs As well as set up the alerts. If the PC crashed the tanks would still run, the lights may stay on, but I'm around enough to see that. Also if I have a stream to my website I might be able to set up an alert where if it stopped receiving info it would let me know the PC isn't running.

[McCrary]

Sorry to hear about your fish.

[Sk8r]

So sorry.

[bernie lyons]

Dripping fish should be done Immediately after bringing it home from a fish store . Firstly what is the point off floating the fish bag when the fish is constantly peeing and releasing carbon dioxide plus ammonia through his gills? It lowers the fish's water quality while he's in the bag (ph , ammonia ) and after deciding to open the bag after 50-60 minutes , his ph has dropped dangeriuosly low so now by adding your water from your tank (high ph) into the fish's water (low ph ) , you now risk ammonium ( low ph) turning into ammonia burn (high ph). You need to add some form of acid to slowly lower your tanks ph , which means removing some of your tank water into another vat , and constantly add your acid until it matches the ph of the fish's bag of water and slowly raise it by adding ph up . or some form of ph boost .
Keep this method going until you have successfully reached the desired ph of your main tanks water , then net your new fish into your tank. This procedure can take anywhere from 1hour to about 2 hours work. However if you know where you store's fish tanks ph is to begin with and it's fairly close to your tanks ph at home , then dripping your fish into a seperate pail from your tank can be done in about an hour SUCCESSFULLY.
cheers
bernie lyons

[Gordonious]

Huh? Why in the world would you do all that? Was that your point that the whole first paragraph is the only way to do that right and there for not worth it? Why did you put stress on the word SUCCESSFULLY?

[stevedola]

you didnt do anything drastically wrong in acclimation-his post was unclear to me also.
you have to face that fish might have been a "dud". what other fish did you say you had? damsels...it looks like trauma to the CB. Did you see any parasites on the gills? what ever it was, sorry about the loss...it sucks, I know, I just had my wrasse go jumping.

[Gordonious]

I did not see any parasites on him and I got used to looking for them while I was working in the lab. I do not have any damsels, the only fish that were in with him were Pholidichthyidae.

[vanmo92]

very sorry to hear about that. I hope he isnt on his way out. BTW i only temp acclimate my fish for about 15 minutes. then add a cup of water....wait 5 minutes and net them out and drop them in. corse all i have is clown,chromis and a 6-line.

[Gordonious]

The fish is gone already.

[Lunchbucket]

Gordonious - my CBB did the SAME THING. looked great the day before was eating wonderful then came home from work and it showed the same markings as yours did. almost like it was bleeding through its skin or somthing. no one could give me a great answer either. i'd love to know. my fav fish but i couldn't keep one alive and my tank is established and been great parameters

Lunchbucket

[TOYMAN357]

I may just be very lucky, but I have had fresh and salt water tanks for about 10 years and have never floated a bag. I bring home fish from fish store and empty contents into net so not to add lfs water to my tank and release fish. My friends in this hobby think I am crazy but the less time in the bag of dirty water the better. I think your copper band was damaged due to stress from fish in tank not water related.

[Steve01]

Those red areas on the body sure look like a bacterial infection to me. The cause can be due to a number of things and may not have anything to do with the way you acclimated the fish. Stress, poor diet, or injuries inflicted by it's tank mates or running into rocks can all trigger an infection. The fish could have been stressed before you bought it and the move to your tank was the last straw. Do you happen to know how long the fish had been in the fish store? Some stores have no problem selling you a fish they just received the day before. I buy from a store that posts the arrival dates of every fish and I'll buy only if (1) it's been in the store for at least two weeks and (2) it eats like a pig and (3) it has no visible parasites or lesions. As you can tell from other posters this sort of thing happens quite often so don't feel bad.

[Slickdonkey]

Ok this is an obvious thing to say, but no one has said it yet so I will... you should quarantine all new fish. On day two you could have immediately started treatment for a bacterial infection without the stress of having to catch the fish again.

[ReefWreak]

Maybe it's just my inexperience in reeftankdom, but as soon as I looked at those pictures, I immediatly thought that something beat the shizen out of that fish. I mean, maybe there was an infection or disease of some other sort, however, fish in perfect LFS health don't usually deteriorate that quickly, or so I would be led to believe, especially if acclimated correctly.

My opinion also stems from the reddish marks and "bruises" described. Definatly sounds like some fish-on-fish crime.

Sorry to hear about it though, regardless. I definatly know the pain of losing beautiful fish, so I sympathize with you. I'm sure you'll rebound though. Fishkeeping has it's ups and downs.

[raddogz]

Bummer!

I feel your pain. Copperband Butterfly's are really hit or miss (more often the latter).

I typically do not drip acclimate, but let the bag settle and then slowly add water to bag. These fish may eat well at the store, but can do a complete 180 and refuse to eat once you get it home.

I really don't think you did anything wrong, and your water parameters seem good.

It could be worse - I will celebrating my birthday next week along with a tank full of sps that all have Acro-Eating Flatworms. Talking about slow death.

[SDguy]

Just a note. I know you said it was eating, but that pinched look above the eye is the classic indication of butterfly starvation/malnutrition. Perhaps it just wasn't eating enough. A weakened immune system just leaves it open to infection. Sorry for your loss.

[Gordonious]

No way I could have immediately treated for a bacterial infection. That's like saying as soon as you start getting a runny nose you start taking drugs. Which antibacterial would I have used? Some meds are worse for particular fish then the sickness they have. Also there was few if any signs of anything on the surface of this fish until right before my exam as you can see in the photos. When I got home from the exam it was dead.

The only thing qt time would have helped here is eliminated the possibility of tank mate bullying, but that could of then happened after the qt time. The qt time would have also added yet another capture stress and the stress of a 4/5 different system stress.(breeder/captor, LFS, QT, my tank) If you can see the size of my tank and the limited number in habitants you can also tell what kind of budget I am on. I am trying to get my two tanks set up right, working on a third can't be easily done right now.

[Gordonious]

This fish ate like a champ the day after I got it home. I don't think I left the LFS till 6pm, so I did not feed it when I got home. But the next day it ate as much food as I would expect any fish to eat.
When we fed it in the LFS it did not eat right away, but then again both me and the sales person were in the small isle right in front of the tank, when we left the isle it started eating. I'm not sure about this species but some fish you can see there stomachs grow and shrink from the outside if you watch them enough, and well he seemed pretty full.

Live brine should have done it well. The LFS feeds a mixture of good foods so it could have picked on other stuff as well if it choose to. Before it got to the LFS it could have been eating beta flakes for all I know. So malnutrition could have been a contributor, but the LFS had it for a week or two. (Shop owner told me she had received the fish on Tuesday, not sure if it was that Tuesday or the Tuesday before.) I brought it home Sunday night.

[SDguy]

I wasn't saying you did anything wrong. I was just pointing out that your CBB was already pinched/sunken-in above the eyes, indicating it was not getting enough food or the right food. Very common amongst finicky butterflies. In fact many years ago I had a small CBB survive for almost a month, but it only ever ate live blackworms. It too quickly developed that pinched forehead. Eventually it started to sample other foods, but by then it was too late. When it finally died, I have to say it wasn't totally emaciated, just pinched looking. I think you just had one of the many CBB's that were bound to simply "not make it" I wouldn't blame yourself, frankly.

[poconofishy]

Just curious, did you have a cleaner shrimp in with him?

[Slickdonkey]

The only thing qt time would have helped here is eliminated the possibility of tank mate bullying, but that could of then happened after the qt time. The qt time would have also added yet another capture stress and the stress of a 4/5 different system stress.(breeder/captor, LFS, QT, my tank) If you can see the size of my tank and the limited number in habitants you can also tell what kind of budget I am on. I am trying to get my two tanks set up right, working on a third can't be easily done right now.

Well I am not going to debate with you the benefits of quarantining fish. I can't convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced. You're right there's no guarantee it would have helped in this case. Talk to most successful reefkeepers and they'll tell you they always quarantine new fish. You talk about cost, but what does it cost if a new fish wipes out all your other fish?

That's all I will say on this subject as it has been beaten to death.

[JER-Z]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7902003#post7902003 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114
you only need to temp acclimate for 20 min tops. It shouldn't take longer then that since there isn't alot of water in the bag.
If it is coming from the LFS then a drip of no more then an hour will be perfectly fine. The only reason why we drip is to stabalize PH. The PH will not drop much if at all on the ride home (unless you live 5 hours away from the LFS) I drip for 6 hours after i receive shipments from Australia only because the PH is around 6.5-7.0 when i get them (30 hour bag time).. any longer it is just repetitive and will just stress them out longer.


not always the case...I drip acclimate very slowly until salinity raises to my tank level....This usually takes several hours...

My LFS keeps the salinity really low...I am sure there are other places that do this as well to keep infections to a minimum...

drip acllimating for an hour is not enough acclimate fish to my salinity...lost the first fish i purchased from there because i didn't acclimate slow enough.

[Gordonious]

Either a cleaner shrimp(Lysmata amboinensis), or a banded coral shrimp(Stenopus hispidus) which I believe some people also consider a "cleaner shrimp" will be added in the near future. I had a banded coral before, but it disappeared from my tank one week when I was away at school.(may have just died and the bristle worms ate it, may have been taken back by an Indian gift giver.)

[Gordonious]

I believe in guaranteeing surly. I didn't mean to argue about it's value. I am just stating that guaranteeing wouldn't have helped much in this case at all and that I just barely have enough money to run one tank and don't believe spending the limited funds I have and time I have is worth it for a qt tank for me. (I however had one other species of fish in the tank and they are hardier then 99.9% of other reef tank inhabitants, so my case is unique.)

Jon

[Frankysreef]

CBB's are extremely hard to keep. I tried 2 of them, and they both died. He may of not liked your system and just quit.

Buy that fish book, and dont put in a fish lower than a 4 rating.

Dont beat yourself up... they are hard to keep.

I tried 4 naso tangs and finally gave up, they would live for a month or a 3 mo's and then just die overnight.

I just had my rabbitfish of 4 yrs just die because of a tumor... What could I have have done? Operate?

Sorry for your loss...

F

[Gordonious]

Ok that was suppose to be quarantining not guaranteeing, I think I clicked a little too fast on the spell checker. I wish I could guarantee anything with my tank.

A fish rating means nothing to me. Might as well put a difficulty rating on individual women. For instance the difficulty rating on Mandarins is usually really high. Does that mean someone with a 200 gallon tank full of LR and pods is going to have an extremely difficult time with them? Probably not.

I spend hours a day reading, I've spend time working in a Marine biology lab, I work for a center for marine policy across the hall from the marine biology graduates. Just cause doesn't work, I have to know why. You can't just tell me something is hard give up before you try I want to understand. I spent a lot of time reading about this fish and 90% of the time the reason for there fatalities is because of refusing to eat or in proper nourishment. The fish looked almost perfectly healthy and was swimming and eating like a champ. The LFS shop owner knows her stuff and had been feeding it well. I did what I could and I am not done. I will find out more about these fish and I would like to try one again in the future.

[Reef_bones]

could have it been a cyanide cassuality?

[Gordonious]

You know, I have been ashamed of myself for not having asked if it was wild caught or not. Been really ****ed I don't know the answer to that question and I never thought about that possibility. Cyanide often does cause sudden unexpected casualties like that out of no where doesn't it?..... I am going to ask the shop asap.

[fvandijk]

There's a very interesting article about bacterial infections in this month's issue of Coral magazine. There are some pics that look much like yours. Gist of the article was that due to the stresses of collection, and subsequent weakened immune system the fish can become susceptible to bacteria which may be present at a low level in the environment (i.e. either in your tank or in one of the tanks that it sat in after it was collected- wholesaler, retailer, etc.) and that these bacteria can kill very quickly- in hours or days.
Probably not much you could have done (they did go into some antibiotics but many of these strains are not very sensitive to most antibiotics).
Sorry for your loss.

[Gary Majchrzak]

What size aquarium was the CBB in? What is the flow like- what kind of powerheads?
Do you run any nightlights near the aquarium?

[Angel*Fish]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I read that pinched look referred to earlier is due to something like muscle atrophy due to malnourishment which can be caused by intestinal flukes or other types of starvation.

Just a thought -

[Gordonious]

I am really doubting starvation. If it swam normally and happily and ate live foods like a champ for a week I find it unlikely that something that didn't take it out earlier all of a sudden came back and took it out over night. I am not sure what the pinched look that was being refer to is, it's hard to know exactly how a species normally looks when you've only kept one for two days.

There were no night lights near the aquarium I don't think. About 8 feet away my leo gecko's night light runs, but that isn't that much light. The aquarium was a 20 gallon long with every little live rock in it. (Please don't yell at me for the amount of LR and water volume as this tank is connected to others sharing water. There are areas of the tank that are slow(for a marine tank) and areas with pretty quick circulation(for filter feeding gorgonians), so if it was unhappy with one or the other it had some options.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Never any need for yelling. :)
IMO a 20 gallon long is much too small for a CBB- even if it's hooked up to a larger system.
These fish have a tall profile and often drift to a quiet corner at night to sleep.
From the damage that I see in your pic it's very possible that your CBB got sucked against a powerhead intake screen.

[Gordonious]

I thought of the possibility, but the fact that bruises were in multiple places and frayed fins... I dunno it is possible. The power heads are only Aqua clear 30s, two of them that is. One is blowing onto my gorgs, the other actually had a tube connected to it running to a parallel tank. <A HREF="http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=899673">Check out this link if that isn't too clear.</A>

Perhaps I will have my 40g up when I get another one and put him in there from day one. I am not sure though what I am going to do with the 40 and have been thinking species tank, like a frog fish or a cuttle fish.(ruled out cuttle fish though)

[Reef_bones]

If it had the fins all messed up then it was injured either by a piece of equpment or tank mate.... I have never heard of a disease causing the fins to frey like that...

[Gordonious]

That's why I had thought my convicts may have chased him, but it could have been one of the power heads as well. There is little chance of the whole reason being disease, but if he was a tiny bit sick then chased around his immune system could have just not been able to keep up.

I suppose I should have brought up the wounds on his fins again as people started debating cyanide and disease, but I think because it's finals week and I've been able to keep myself busy enough not to dwell on the tragedy on my birthday. Since I obviously have not hung onto the carcass and the photographic documentation was week I don't think will be able to tell for sure if a disease was present or if it was just pure physical abuse, when the lights where out. I had not watched him to late that night as I had a final, I had to put a towel over the tank so I would not study, otherwise I find myself staring into my tank and 30 minutes of study time disappears.

I am going to go up to That Pet Place up in PA(for those of you not around it's a pretty big store). I may take a water sample and ask if they could test the pH for me and alkalinity.

[DJM32189]

In my humble opinion, as this thread has intrigued me, if this would have happened to me, I would suspect that some sort of organism attacked it in the tank. If, like you stated, the fish was in the LFS eating, swimming, healthy as can be, than I doubt that it was killed by a bacterial infection because I would think that an infection that can kill a fish in one day would display some sort of symptom at the LFS. Now, maybe the stress on capture and release did trigger it, but I think that it is less likely.

However, the fact that the fins were frayed, and the legions/bruises appeared on the skin, suggests to me a fight with a hidden crab, or invert (even though you do not have a lot of l
LR), powerhead, or perhaps because of the delicate nature of the fish that it went crazy at night in the new environment swum furiously (fraying the fins) and slamming itself into the rough live rocks (legions) and the smooth glass (bruises). You did state that little light penetrated the tank and therefore, it could have just literally gone crazy in the new environment. That is the theory that I found most likely,

HTH

DJM32189

[MadTownMax]

Gordonious

What follows is a ton of speculaiton - so take it w/ a grain of salt - but since you wanted some answers, I thought I'd add my $0.02

I happen to know some of the local LFS's used to (before recently upgrading ;) ) run copper in their fish-only tanks as a rule of thumb - I'm not sure if they are continuing this practice in their new tanks, but I would assume so. That being said, pm me where you got it from, and I can give some more insight - I personally did not have any luck with all but 1 of the local LFS's in Newark - most fish I purchased from shops around 45-mins to an hour away.

The lfs's copper treatment could explain why a malnurished fish would not get a bacterial infection at the LFS, but would get it in your tank. Malnurished in this case meaning that a fish can eat a lot, but if 1: the food is not a solid diet - live brine would fall under this category; or 2: stomache parasites, or 3: It was not fed well for quite some time before getting to the LFS's regular feedings - these are a few answers that come to mind . The shredded fins could be a result of excessive scraping on rocks - but you didnt' mention seeing that, so ....

Your other assumption may be correct - it was your gobies - which usually would not be the case (with them being mostly bottom-dwelling) but in such a small tank (no offense intended, just constructive criticism here) the gobies have their territory established as the entire 20-gallons. It also may follow that you didn't see any harassment during the day when the CB was swimming in the open, but when it tried to sleep in the rocks at night (all goby territory) it was harassed non-stop.

I think you forgot to mention how old the gobies are ;) - this might help others understand how such a normally "docile" fish would be the agressor in this situation.

A good check for these two causes would to get some stuff under the microscope in the biology lab - check the gills and stomache contents for parasites - and if possible trace amounts of copper for a start (if you still have the fish that is :rolleyes: )

[Gordonious]

There is one crab in the tank besides hermits and the hermits are all small. The one crab would not do this, not could I really see anyone crab chasing a fish around a tank enough to get it to look like this. Crab you might also see what would look like sword slashes on it. I would say with 98% surety that a crab didn't do this. People are always hating on the crabs, lol.

I think there was some light at night, but it is possible. Fish freak out all the time because of sudden light changes. I suppose if your swimming in the reef and all of a sudden something large blocks the sun, you better just get out of there. Though I haven't known a fish to go crazy after the lights go out in the middle of the night.

Big thing is in my opinion he seemed happy as could be in the tank and was eating well, he had no bruises on him after the first night, so I doubt it was the second night.

It had to have been either a power head or the convicts. I've never seen convicts as an aggressor, but then again when you just were lucky enough to survive a beating from the last tank invader and had just gotten rid of him, a new tank mate may not have been welcomed. They seems scared of him at first, but perhaps they realized in time he wasn't a that big and bad and they could take him. They weren't out to kill just defending there home as a group. They don't have crazy agressive mating behaivor, so there is no reason for a sudden change to a bully.

[Gordonious]

The fish swam well and never seemed to bump into anything when I watched him which was for a long while the first day and half. The gobies are years old. I have had them for a long time. Actually got them at Newark Tropicals which is now the worst pet store I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot.

The CBB navigated into a tight small dug out spot in the front of the tank and was chilling with the crab. Wasn't an easy spot to get to. The convicts did chase him from there a couple of times, but not to much. I guess the convicts don't go docile at night.(yeah of course they don't Jon they rearrange the tank over night, duh) The convicts also may have no chased as much when I was near as they were hiding from me. They roam around a lot when I'm on the opposite side of the room, but when I'm close by they are hidden. One of my brothers friends used to come over walk right up to the tank, put his nose two inches from the tank and say your fish suck they are always hiding.(I wonder why they hid? Did I mention some of my bro's friends weren't to smart. )

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7916866#post7916866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angel*Fish
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I read that pinched look referred to earlier is due to something like muscle atrophy due to malnourishment which can be caused by intestinal flukes or other types of starvation.

Just a thought -

Well, I'm not sure about the muscle atrophy part, but I have seen this "look" many times over the years in starving/malnurished butterflies (they are my favorite non reef safe fish :) )


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7916955#post7916955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gordonious
I am really doubting starvation. If it swam normally and happily and ate live foods like a champ for a week I find it unlikely that something that didn't take it out earlier all of a sudden came back and took it out over night. I am not sure what the pinched look that was being refer to is, it's hard to know exactly how a species normally looks when you've only kept one for two days.


Sorry I wasn't clear. This is what I was refering to:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/26113CBB.jpg

When butterflies get skinny, it really doesn't show up like on other fish (ie anthias or twinspot gobies, for example, which get a very clearly visible sunken in stomach). Butterflies get pinched in above the eye, and an overall lateral compression of the body, resulting in slightly visible distinctions of internal body structure, as can also be seen in the above pic. If all your CBB was eating was live brine, and the store had it for up to a month, I'll bet money that it simply succumbed to malnutrition. I personally owned a CBB that only ate live blackworms. When it finally died, it wasn't super paper thin or anything, but clearly showed the pinched in forehead, and slightly sunken in areas around the body. Yours appears to have had the added misfortune of an infection of some sort taking advantage of its weak immune system. Hope I made myself clearer. Again, sorry for your loss. Don't think there was much you could have done.

[Angel*Fish]

I am really doubting starvation. If it swam normally and happily and ate live foods like a champ for a week I find it unlikely that something that didn't take it out earlier all of a sudden came back and took it out over night. I am not sure what the pinched look that was being refer to is, it's hard to know exactly how a species normally looks when you've only kept one for two days.

What I was trying to suggest is that it may have been intestinal flagellates. If you look at your first photo (Aug. 6) you can see this was starting from the inside out. It can penetrate the intestinal wall causing a nasty bacterial infection that starts from the inside of the fish and can work its way out. I think there are at least a few different outcomes for a fish that has these.

Once a fish starts getting sick all sorts of things can start to develop as its immune system weakens like "fin rot'

I also think there is merit to the power head theory - but at least on my computer, it desn't look like it was attacked by other fish.

Your fish looks pinched behind the head to me where it's circled above and it looks like it continues along and above the lateral line which is a diagnostic clue for IF.

Seems possible he could have recieved an injury when they caught him at the LFS, also.

Sorry about your fish - what ever killed it, I seriously doubt it was in any way your fault.

[Gordonious]

I heard black worms mentioned only after it passed away. I had bought some the same time I bout him and had them in the fridge. Not that it would have done much, just would have been nice to have given it to him. The LFS had him either one or two weeks and one of the employees claim they feed a bunch of different things, I'm not sure if the worms were on the list.

I had not known the way a sick CBB looks vs most other fish. I've kept freshwaters for years and worked in a lab with local fish. Just starting to get my reef tank going as I just moved out of the dorms which only allowed me to have a 20 gallon tank. (didn't keep me from sneaking a 29 gallon into my closet and just showing the hall director my 10g and 5g,lol)

I should have looked at photos of sick CBBs before hand so I knew what to look for, I hadn't thought I would need to look for anything different then I normally did. I guess this is one lesson I learned.

I knew CBBs had a low survival rate, however I was going to learn as much about the fish and seeing as the fish appeared to me to be one of the rare ones that was fairing will I thought I had a chance.

[Chaloupa]

Hey Gordonious-same deal with me. I bought my CBB...had him flown here with a rabbit fish I needed...the flight was about 30 minutes. Acclimated both fish perfectly as per the requirements of the place I got them. Both fish looked good, the Rabbit ate well from day 1, the CBB not as well but did eat. After 2nd day, it started to "scratch" on rock, while the other fish were perfect, but the whole time it was actively "hunting" or picking at the rocks. Then after a few days appeared the same way yours does. I did it all correctly too, the only other fish in the tank are 3 saddleback clowns, a Valentini Puffer, and the Rabbit (whom he shared the tank with at the LFS) my tank is 120g, with over 100lbs of LR and live sand.......after 10 days in tank he finally died. It almost makes you cry it is so sad as they are such a beautiful fish. And he looked so good when I got him. I completely understand how you feel...

[Gordonious]

Sure your Puffer didn't contribute as well? I don't know about that particular species, but many puffers are fin biters. Mine also never hit the rock when I watched it. It did peck at it a lot. Cleaned up the one aptasia I had and possible others I didn't see. Sorry to hear you went through this as well.

Jon

[dcombs44]

After reading all of this, I have a couple questions. Has this condition seemed to "spread" to any other tank inhabitants? I think that is why quaranteening was being emphasized, to protect other fish, not the new one. Bacterial and viral infections from my knowledge usually spread quite quickly in a marine environment, if this condition doesn't seem to spread to the cbb's other tankmates, could we possibly rule out disease, and assume it was more of a physical injury, rather than an infection.

[Gordonious]

Yes that is one of the main reasons for a quarantine and no we can't rule it out completely, though because I have not seen anything on the other fish it does support the idea that it was not a bacterial or viral infection. Some infections could have built up on a food source and only spread to the larger organism if they had developed on the food for a while. Other infections can infect only certain types of fish, or certain species. My convicts body structure is very different then that of the CBB. My french angle is in a tank annoying and seems to be fine, but wouldn't come into direct contact. Scary part though, the way this happened, seemingly over night if it was the infection that brought it down and had it lose it's mind and bang against rocks, then I may not see any signs in my other fish until it is to late as well. I also can't treat my convicts with much of anything or treat anything in my reef tank with the inverts. I would have to be sure my fish were sick before pulling them into a qt tank and putting them under that stress.

I like that many people are putting in there input and that people have shown their support. Some of my other posts recently have been getting zero replies and I was beginning to lose faith in the RC community. Thank you all for your ideas and support.

I may be going to That pet place tonight and ask them to test my water, though I'm not sure they could accurately test it either. Wish me luck. Perhaps I will bring something home a little easier and safer if they agree that my water quality is good. Perhaps a goby of some sort like a neon goby.

[LargeAngels]

My guess would be a severe internal infection. One pygmy angelfish I got went from eating like a pig on day one to a slight reddish spot near its tail to the tail rotting off and the fish dying within 24 hours. And, Yes, it was put into a quarentine tank first thing. Could have been an internal infection from being pinned (deep water fish being pinned by a needle to remove excess gas in their swim bladder) to who knows what.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7905316#post7905316 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefWreak
Maybe it's just my inexperience in reeftankdom, but as soon as I looked at those pictures, I immediatly thought that something beat the shizen out of that fish. I mean, maybe there was an infection or disease of some other sort, however, fish in perfect LFS health don't usually deteriorate that quickly, or so I would be led to believe, especially if acclimated correctly.

My opinion also stems from the reddish marks and "bruises" described. Definatly sounds like some fish-on-fish crime.

Sorry to hear about it though, regardless. I definatly know the pain of losing beautiful fish, so I sympathize with you. I'm sure you'll rebound though. Fishkeeping has it's ups and downs.
I completely agree. Something beat the hell out of that fish.

[Reeling Reefer]

I think this was a case of a brutual beating. Fine one day, beat to hell the next = territory beating..

[techreef]

Re: bacterial infections, it's also possible that the bacteria that did in your CBB (if in fact that's what killed it) would not harm your Convicts because the Convicts' immune systems were stronger than the CBB's, thus just like we humans shrug off colds when we're healthy, the Convicts are resisting whatever bacteria is present in your tank's water. Reef tank water is chock full of bacteria, some which can be nasty. Another good reason to use gloves in your tank, at least whenver you have a cut/scrape on your hands.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7920196#post7920196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reeling Reefer
I think this was a case of a brutual beating. Fine one day, beat to hell the next = territory beating..

I've seen fish go through this exact same thing, alone in a tank. I'd expect more fin loss from a beating, IMO/E.

[Gordonious]

I think the picture blurs the amount of holes and chips out of the fins that there were. Today as I was sitting there taking my chem final I was thinking maybe these guys could be to territorial for anything I put in there. (yeah I know concentrate on the exam, but it was three hours long and I needed a break)

I am curious now what would happen if I were to add more convict gobies, but young ones. I guess it would be tough to see if they accept them or not. Picturing these guys and new guys popping there heads in and out of the LR and all the drama that could be involved, sounds a little like meerkrat manor on the animal planet. lol

[Angel*Fish]

Am i the only one who sees this infection was already starting from Day 1 (Aug6) ? I guess it could be my computer screen (?) If he was "pinched behind the head and along & above the lateral line that's a symptom of possible intestinal flagellates which will puncture the intestine and develop into a horrible bacterial infection that works its way out.

This bacteria is not something you would expect the other fish to catch, but the flagellates are. This can present differently depending on the fish's own immune response, ----one fish might slowly starve (even though he's eating), another might have the busting intestine and wind up with his tail "falling off", another might drop dead with no apparent symptoms.

I don't know if the initial problem was IF, but I feel pretty sure that something caused an internal infection that worked its way through your fish. Once you can actually see signs of it coming (first picture) just anterior to the black spot, a fish is "lucky" to live for whole 2 more days.

http://www.gordonious.com/H2O/Marine/CBB/hpim5503cs.jpg

Not to push the intestinal flagellates , but these are easily treated in a reef tank - if this were my tank , I'd feed all my fish some worm medicine. :)

[dcombs44]

I see it too now that you mention it....i did look very closely at the first pic at first, but i couldn't really pick anything out...but now that you mention it, i can see the "faded" area where the infection was just starting to work it's way out....

Someone was talking about an LFS using copper earlier. IF they were using it and the fish was in the store for a fair amount of time, would that not prevent many of the parasites etc. etc. rather then holding it off until it entered an untreated environment...I would think that there would have to be something cause a problem after leaving the copper treated environment, rather than the copper holding off the disease for the patron to deal with. My lfs uses copper, and i'm glad he does.....to me it's really a safety blanket that helps protect me from problems at home rather than hiding them from me.

[MadTownMax]

The LFS he went to is not the one that I know *used to* use copper - I have no idea if this other LFS does use copper (I have never gotten more than an enthusiastic grunt from them when asking questions :rolleyes: or simply the wrong answer), but they do keep the fish on a separate filtration system from their corals - so the use of copper is possible.

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7922357#post7922357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dcombs44
I see it too now that you mention it....i did look very closely at the first pic at first, but i couldn't really pick anything out...but now that you mention it, i can see the "faded" area where the infection was just starting to work it's way out....

Someone was talking about an LFS using copper earlier. IF they were using it and the fish was in the store for a fair amount of time, would that not prevent many of the parasites etc. etc. rather then holding it off until it entered an untreated environment...I would think that there would have to be something cause a problem after leaving the copper treated environment, rather than the copper holding off the disease for the patron to deal with. My lfs uses copper, and i'm glad he does.....to me it's really a safety blanket that helps protect me from problems at home rather than hiding them from me.
I don't believe copper works on intesinal flagellates, though.

It wouldn't help a bacterial infection either as far as I know. Any number of things could have caused an internal infection. i focus on the IF's because at least you can treat them (kinda like looking for the key under the street lamp ;) ) But since it's easily treatable & the treatment is thought to do no harm, it could prevent further deaths on the chance that it is in the tank

[Gordonious]

? are you saying that if I see any trouble with my other fish I may consider treating for intesinal flagellates? Sorry I'm confused

[Freed]

Gordonious, I know you don't want to listen and probably won't but earlier you said you would be hard pressed to pull the fish out and put in QT, BUT you need to understand that QT is used primarily to observe and then treat any diseases BEFORE putting them into the main tank, thereby limiting any diseases or parasites that could be introduced into the main system and killing ALL of the fish in the main tank. Which would you rather do, put a fish in your main system and kill all the fish because you don't have the money to set up a VERY cheap QT tank OR save up the money and set up a VERY cheap QT and spare yourself the expense of spending hundreds of dollars to replace all the fish you just killed because you didn't QT and introduced a disease or a parasite into the tank? It's your call but it really seems as though your stubborness to listen will be the downfall of your tanks inhabitants sooner rather than later.

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7922914#post7922914 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gordonious
? are you saying that if I see any trouble with my other fish I may consider treating for intesinal flagellates? Sorry I'm confused
I'm saying there is nothing to be lost and potentially something to be gained by treating for intestinal flagellates. Basically - it can't hurt.

One of the things you've mentionerd, if I understand it correctly, is that having possibly never seen a healthy CBB, it's pretty hard to know a healthy one from a sick one - how tue that is.. And the LFS isn't always helpful... Once I bought an angel after being told that it was normal for that species to jerk like that :rolleyes: Of course that fish lasted less than a week.

My point is in this hobby there are tons of pitfalls and mistakes to be made. And no matter how much hobbyists read and how careful they are everybody makes some. If you could learn it all the first year, RC would be out of business!

[Gordonious]

I am a student. I am here to learn and the value of quarantining I knew and never argued:

"I believe in quarantining surly. I didn't mean to argue about its value. I am just stating t......"

"Ok that was suppose to be quarantining not guaranteeing, I think I clicked a little too fast on the spell checker. I wish I could guarantee anything with my tank. "


I had one species of fish in the tank that is probably the most hardy fish kept in reef tanks. If I had a full blown reef the value of a qt would be worth it. I also inspected this fish and watched it for a week in the store as well as all the fish around it.


If there is nothing to be lost for medicating there would be no meds that you couldn't get over the counter for animals, or humans for that matter. Wouldn’t we also just medicate our tanks with drippers constantly? Why were people bringing up that it was bad to put copper in tanks in a fish store?

Wetwebmedia:
"Disease:
This is a scaleless species that doesn’t take well to exposure to harsh chemical treatments. Usually copper or formalin-containing medications are more toxic than a parasitic disease. Best to avoid having to use these altogether by quarantining new fishes for a good two weeks, assuring yourself that you’ve excluded the common external complaints of reef fishes. "

PLEASE. I am not arguing the value of quarantining. Have never and will never. I am a poor college student and I am just trying to keep my tank running. If you would like I can take more photos of my tank and show them to you. It is a qt tank. There is no fish in it accept these gobys. If I had a reef tank I would QT. I am not going to take apart my whole tank and remove all the LR to capture three fish that will hide place them in a new tank I set up which I do not have the money for, put them under medication I researched for a week and cross my fingers will be safe with them, and put those fish threw all the stress, not to mention what would happen with the chemistry of my tank with such a dramatic change.

I am hear to listen and learn that is why I post and ask for people to comment, but please listen to me. I am not arguing with you on the importance of quarantining I just don’t want to be yelled at because I did not in this situation.

[melev]

Hi Jon,

I just read your entire thread, and read each and every comment you've posted. It does <i>appear</i> that you are not quite open to taking advice at this time, but on a message board such as this one, you'll get plenty of it.

Since the discussion seems to point to a disease, your next option would be to post the images and observations in the Fish Disease forum for confirmation one way or another. I don't believe water quality nor your acclimation method were the problem.

I've had three Copperband Butterfly Fish over the past few years. The first one was at the LFS for "four weeks" supposedly. It was eating their LFS-made fishfood. I brought it home, put it in a 29g packed with aiptasia, and expected it to feel at home. It swam around daily, but around Day 5, I noticed its stomach was severely pinched. Stunned, I tried to figure out what to do, but within 48 hours it was dead. Maybe I should have purchased the LFS food since it was already eating that.

The second one I purchased from a club member. He had it in his system for a while, but it was eating his clams and he wanted these more than the fish. I was happy to accept it. I had it for about six months or more. It was a glorious and beautiful fish. I named it "Tom" because it vanished the day after I put it in the tank, and was officially gone for five full days. Eventually it came out in the open more and more, until it was out all the time. (Tom was the guy that won Survivor that season, so it was quite fitting.) Last November, I made the fatal error of leaving all my pumps off, and fell asleep. Eight hours later, half my fish population littered the sandbed, including poor Tom. :(

The third CBB I purchased in January of this year. I put it in quarantine, and that consisted of a 14g cube tank, a powerhead, heater, and a couple of pieces of LR. Each day I dropped in mysis, and each day it saw it but essentially ignored the food. Finally by the fifth day, it realized that was something delicious to eat, and consumed it readily. I even video'd it because he loved chasing the tender morsels.
http://www.melevsreef.com/video/cbb1.wmv (6 megs)

He stayed in quarantine for a total of 5 weeks. After two weeks, it broke out in Lymphosystis, but this dropped off on its own about 14 days later. Each day it ate the food, recognizing the time of day as well as the look, shape, and smell. When it was added to my reef, healthy and disease-free, it knew what to look for at meal times when the other 14 fish were voraciously devouring the 9pm buffet. He was so well-trained to eat that prepared food that he didn't touch aiptasia for a good month.

He's a great citizen, and keeps the aiptasia completely in check now.

The benefit of quarantine is disease control, observation of the fish's health, and the opportunity to train it to eat food without competition. I think you know this already, and as your tank progresses (upgrades, more livestock, etc), I hope you'll follow that practice and teach it to others.

I doubt there was anything you could have done for your birthday fish. I too feel that it looked 'off' from the very first picture. Keep reading, keep learning, and maintain good husbandry practices. Your success stories will outweigh the negative events.

[Serioussnaps]

Something like that normally doesnt show up overnight....and no need to acclimate so long but that is not what caused it.....my CBB always gets beat up by other fish(until i get rid of all of em because i like him the most) even a clown was beating him up...i suspect something was bullying the hell out of him

[Gordonious]

<DD>I do not understand though why it appears I am not open and taking advice. As people began speculating more and more what happened to my fish I was trying to narrow it down and listing my observations as to support or refute possibilities. I have not been arguing with anyone. Just after someone comes up with an idea I want to make sure they know exactly what happened and what I saw and did, so they could possibly narrow it down as well. I am not being stuck up or anything nor am I arguing with anyone. I consider myself a newbie and I know how much left I have to learn. I never expected to narrow down exactly what happened to the fish as I was pretty sure we would not. Even when I originally posted it was not to find out why. "The only thing I think could have possibly happened was the fish was either diseased when I got it or tormented to death by my convict gobies. " The rest of the post was asking for support and opinions on the rest of my system so I could make progress with my tanks and have something positive happening.

<DD>That first post I was really trying to get someone to help me figure out what I am doing with my tanks. I have been trying hard for the last several months to get feed back on <A HREF=” http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=899673”>my plans</A>. In the last couple of weeks before my birthday I posted several threads which got 0 responses. I am starting to think it is because I give too much information. The way to get answers in a thread seems to be to use it like a conversation that lasts for days, not to tell a story and get feedback because people are too busy to read it all at once. I try to be descriptive as I can so people understand what is going on and I do not want anyone to come on posting about what I have not planned for and what I haven't thought of and just assuming I haven't.
<DD>I am not saying that I did not want to find out what happened to my CBB as I really did. I hate when something happens that I could have prevented and want badly to learn from my mistakes and not to let things happen more then once that do not need to. A friend of mine and I have started to think that perhaps I do a bit too much research, planning, and thinking before I do something with my tanks because the fact is I have read endless amounts of info for years and my tanks have not hardly had anything done to them. Mistakes are going to be made occasionally and unpredictable situations are going to happen regardless of what I do. I want to have a set up reef tank and not just read about them.
<DD>I have even more recently thought about making a narrated video of photos and short movie clips of my plans for my tanks, so people do not have to read a long paragraph and might be more interested to find out about my plans and give input.
<DD>Again I’m sorry if anyone thought I was arguing. I am all ears and I want to learn. When I comment on what you post it is just to give more background and to explore any possibilities of what you have said.

[Angel*Fish]

If there is nothing to be lost for medicating there would be no meds that you couldn't get over the counter for animals, or humans for that matter. Wouldn’t we also just medicate our tanks with drippers constantly? Why were people bringing up that it was bad to put copper in tanks in a fish store? I don't think this was directed at me, but just to avoid any misunderstanding - What I said was there is nothing to be lost for treating your fish for intestinal flagellates. The reason is because the proper treatment should be oral. You soak or gut load the food in praziquantel (Prazipro) and carefully feed this to your fish while avoiding its being taken up by other tank animals. Some actually say it's ok to treat a reef with Prazipro (pour it into the water), but I would never do that and would never recommend it- still it should give you some confidence that the very small amount you introduce to your tank by feeding it to the fish directly would do more good than harm.

If your fish has an internal infection of any kind, bacteria or parasites, it's normally better to get the fish to ingest the medicine orally.

Copper is a whole different thing. I have some Coppersafe on the shelf, but I've never used it and hope I never need to.

[Gordonious]

So this is safe for any fish at all? Including my non-goby/non-blenny engineer convict do-hickies? (Pholidichthys leucotaenia)

[Gordonious]

Should I hold off on other new fish for a while? My parents are going to be in town in a couple hours and taking going by the biggest fish store in the area... they had helped me by the CBB and may want to get me something else.
For not I'm thinking maybe a little LR or some hermits to be safe. Maybe I will get another Porcelain crab, I love the one I have. (PLEASE no debates on the reefsafeness of these guys)
I am going to look at the store today for praziquantel (Prazipro) just incase. I want to read a little more about it as I have not got a chance to.

[Gordonious]

I may have been very wrong about one thing. “They ‘(the convicts)’ don't have crazy aggressive mating behavior, so there is no reason for a sudden change to a bully.” This statement was based on my own experiences and that I have read everything I could find on this species. Today however I believe I witnessed something that may very much conflict with that reasoning. I’m 99% sure I saw two of my convicts… going at it.(trying to keep this pg) It was rough and wild and did not last terribly long. Ok as I was typing this I guess he got all rested up looked like they were doing it again. When they are doing it the bottom half of there bodies have been under one of the pieces of LR so I could not see too much. Not sure if I should attempt to explain exactly what I saw.
I have asked around before about there mating behavior and was not able to find anyone that had witnessed it or had any young. The other thing I have posted about in the past is a strange white mass on the underside of one of the rocks. First time I saw it and posted about it I thought it may have been an egg mass. I can’t find that thread, but here is a more recent one: <A HREF=”http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=889307”?>Mystery blob!?!</A>

Jon

[Angel*Fish]

Hi, I don't know if I caught you in time :) But get them to buy you some great books! They are really pricey that you might not want to buy yourself ;)
Anything by S.Michael His reef series Vol. I,II, & III are out very very good and IME reliable info - i can't wait for the next one. Also Delbeek & Sprung Vol. III just came out and gives very up to date info on the technical aspects of running your tank. Ron Shimek's handbook on inverts is good to have and also S>Michael's new handbook of 500+ Reef fishes to know (as opposed to the old one that was 500+ saltwater fishes)

If you must have livestock - 1 or 2 cleaner skunk cleaners is a great choice - always out in the open unlike the prettier blood shrimp that hide. Might pick parasites off your fish, too!

Enjoy the store -- I love LFS trips!!

If you don't have any of these, the best fish books to start with would be SMichael Reef Fishes Vol. I & the 500+ Reef Fishes to know IMHO ---- The Vol. I book only covers certain fish in detail, but there is a wholelot of general info in the first third of the book that will really give you a good foundation for understanding your tank inhabitants. But I'll understand if you buy his Vol.III - Angelfishes and Butterflyfishes first :D

HTH

[Angel*Fish]

The other thing I have posted about in the past is a strange white mass on the underside of one of the rocks. First time I saw it and posted about it I thought it may have been an egg mass. I can’t find that thread, but here is a more recent one: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...readid=889307”?>Mystery blob!?!
Were you able to discover if they lay eggs that stick to rocks (demersal)? Your link didn't work for me, BTW.

[melev]

The link doesn't work for me to that thread.

The Reef Aquarium Vol III by Delbeck & Sprung is what you really want, and is worth its weight in cash. ;)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with porcelain crabs, and many have them. I guess a few people have posted negatively for you to state that plea, but the white ones tend to live in and near anemones while the pink or blue ones tend to live in the rocks. I'd get one myself, but I think my Lemon Meringue Wrasse would turn it into dinner in no time.

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7931267#post7931267 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev


The Reef Aquarium Vol III by Delbeck & Sprung is what you really want, and is worth its weight in cash. ;)



Well that was on my list -- and is as valuable as you say, but I have to force myself to read it - my weakness, I know :rolleyes: But it's just not the same as curling up to read every little thing about anthias fish (again) for example ;)

Wait, do guys "curl up" to read books?

BTW I have a white porcelain crab who lives on my BTA - been doing fine for at least a year now. :)

[Gordonious]

Today’s word of the day: (demersal)
Lol thanks, I did not know that any every bit of facts like that I try to absorb. (haven’t found out yet about the convicts mating) Just wish I knew someone that could say out loud the scientific names for me. It was embarrassing today at the store telling my mother about the Gorgonians and when I said Gorgonian I had to say, "I guess that’s is how you say it." Of course a costumer near by told me I was correct. I've read about them for for countless hours and talked about them online, but it's all text.

Sorry, I posted and realized the link was broke, but before I could fix it my parents were knocking on the door and well I was headed to the LFS, lol quickly forgot about posting.

I couldn't bring myself to buy any animals. Fish I have to read about for at least a week before I purchase and post on here if I have any questions I couldn't find answers to. And as far as inverts after I lost many hermits and snails at the start of the summer I was to scared to get any more till I had my sump running and knew my exact pH.

Ron Shimek's Marine Invertebrates and his Marine Fishes books were both sitting next to me on the car ride up, lol. I feel safer when I drive, but saving gas and getting a chance to read... worth it. I have seen the Reef Fishes book, but that came out after I had my two and have been too short on funds to pick it up. (btw we left a bit too early to get your posts, but thanks much for responding)

I may head to the book store tomorrow to take a look at "S.Michael His reef series Vol. I,II, & III", and "The Reef Aquarium Vol III by Delbeck & Sprung"… Did I miss any? Thanks for mentioning these I had not thought about some new book some new books in a while, though I do have a shelf on the book case just for fish books, lol.

I thought about a white anemone, but I didn't know how to identify the difference between the two species. Some say one will dye with out an anemone and the other would be ok. I don't have an anemone yet, so couldn't take any risks.

Unfortunately I am still in the middle of my transfer from FOWLR to reef, so a couple of essentials were on the list. Some good food, bulk heads, pre-filters(had no idea how fast I would go through them), as well as a few things for my hamster. I did however though get some more LR, Figi, which looks pretty nice.

Sorry I’m long winded that is all for my lengthy story about my day.

Jon

[melev]

Here's the book I'm recommending: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1883693144/sr=8-1/qid=1155533641/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8151312-2267247?ie=UTF8

What prefilters are you referring to? For your RO/DI unit? They should be good for six months at a time.

Regarding anemones, it would be better if your tank was mature and had the proper parameters and lighting to support it. Here's an article about BTAs:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/inverts/cnidaria/anthozoa/bubbletipanemones.htm

Happy reading. :)

[Gordonious]

:-( wow, they have a picture of a CBB on the bottle of PraziPro I picked up today. :-(

I'm looking at soaking some food tomorrow I need to know the best way to go about it and would like to read a little more on it, so if there is a good site or thread please let me know asap. I'm a little nervous now about my fish. I did a water change today and soon as I get my RO unit up I plan on doing more over the next couple of days.

[melev]

Soaking food is usually referring to taking the food you plan to offer, let it thaw in some tank water, and add a few drops of selcon or garlic. Wait about 10 minutes, then add it to your tank.

On the Hidden Treasure page of my site, look under the Food Category for Proper Feeding Techniques. It'll probably answer most questions.

[Angel*Fish]

400 mg/100 g food OID for 7 days
500 mg/kg ONCE

I found the above for exact dosing -


What I have done is suction out some live brine into a bowl, strain off about 3/4 of the water and add 10 drops prazipro. Let sit 4 hours - strain and rinse well in RO water then feed to the fish.

Leebca in the Fish Diseases forum told me if I do it that way, I should repeat for a week and then dose again in 6 weeks

I have also soaked dried brine in Prazipro and they kept spitting it out

[Gordonious]

Could I ask why it was you were treating them and who was "they" that had spit it out? Just curious how picky there tastes were normally. My angel is a little fussy, but the convicts will eat just about anything. I'll try to get some brine eggs started before I head to work. I could try to do it with frozen brine tonight however letting them soak for a while would probably get a bit odorous.

I wanted to say thanks again for those of you still reading and posting. I appreciate all of the help and support.

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7936340#post7936340 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gordonious
Could I ask why it was you were treating them and who was "they" that had spit it out? Just curious how picky there tastes were normally. My angel is a little fussy, but the convicts will eat just about anything. I'll try to get some brine eggs started before I head to work. I could try to do it with frozen brine tonight however letting them soak for a while would probably get a bit odorous.

I wanted to say thanks again for those of you still reading and posting. I appreciate all of the help and support. My fish are a little picky - I guess i've spoiled them, but basically I'm talking about angels and anthias who were doing the spitting out. Seems like the clowns maybe didn't have a problem.

I was referring to gut loading adult brine, BTW, loading the baby brine is a little different. I believe you wait until 24 hours after they've hatched and it may only take an hour or 2 to load them (?)

Whatever you use, be sure and rinse them before feeding to the tank :)

This will also treat for flukes, if that's what it was -http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=686476&highlight=flukes+AND+CBB

[r0bin]

"My point is in this hobby there are tons of pitfalls and mistakes to be made. And no matter how much hobbyists read and how careful they are everybody makes some. If you could learn it all the first year, RC would be out of business!"

I just want to say that I could not agree more with this comment and it made me feel better about some of the fish I have lost in the past, one in particular, a lemon peel angel that thrashed to much and broke a dorsal barb, which later got infected and it died. I still blame myself, and it still bothers me. It was a very hard learning experience.

[UGA XI]

Sorry to hear about your loss... I think everyone on here has some type of horror story when it comes to their tank. Things happen sometimes that no one can predict. It even goes beyond testing.

[Gordonious]

Coral banded shrimp are considers cleaner shrimp as well right? If I had one of those in my tank again do you think this would have possibly helped? I would like to get one again, but wasn't sure about there reef safeness.

[melev]

CBS can be predatory. They'll catch a sleeping fish or a shrimp and turn it into a meal. I think they are pretty, but their appetite is a bit too expensive to me.

[Gordonious]

If the fish would be ok and there is no shrimp would it be ok? In other words would it mess with the corals at all. The other shrimps that I can afford and keep alive in my tank don't look near as attractive to me and I think my fish should be ok. I had one with these fish before for almost a year and they were fine.

[Gordonious]

I didn't realize till now that I still needed to send you both of those links. I forgot there was one before that hadn't worked as well. Here they are(hopefully):

<A HREF="http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=899673">The cube</A>
<A HREF="http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=889307">Mystery blob!?!</A>

[Gordonious]

I thought this post went through before, but I do not see it. Sorry if it is a double post.

Angel*Fish during the week of treatment were the brine the only thing you fed your fish? If not about what percent of there diet did you make these gut loaded brine?

I am going to buy some right now.

[Angel*Fish]

I feed my fish twice a day, but only fed the gut-loaded brine once /day - I'm not sure that's the best way - but that's what worked for me - you might get better dosing info in the disease treatment forum

[melev]

It really should be okay to have a CBS in your tank.

[Gordonious]

<IMG SRC="http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/524/48214HPIM5904cs.JPG">

Little scared now, my French Angle looks lighter then normal. Temperature is fine, will report the rest of the chemistry in just a moment. However my salinity has fallen over the past week from around 39 to 35. It usually sits close to 37-38 and I have been working to get it down. I don't know how it got this low because it was right a week ago and I have not removed any water, just topped off and the tanks are not that high.
I might say he looks a little skinnier, but that could just me being paranoid and looking to closely.

It is fed pretty well, but I have to ask would Ocean Nutritions formula 1 or formula 2 be better for the Angle.

[Angel*Fish]

I don't know about those particular foods - I do know French angels are pretty hardy. I can't tell from the above photo, but if he's thinning out especially along and above that lateral line, he needs some Prazipro.

Sounds like you're using a refractometer? Could it need, I can't think of the word, but it's like "re-adjusting"?

In general angels should be fed a variety of foods and algae and sponges should be included. Maybe you can find something that says "angel formula"?

Large Angels knows this stuff I think - I'll PM him your thread :)

[melev]

Your salinity numbers don't make sense to me. 39? ppt? You want it to be lower, around 35ppt or 1.026sg?

[Gordonious]

I have ocean nutrition's angle formula with marine sponge in it. It's like trying to get a kid to take meds, lol. Damn thing will only eat that if he is starving, but I don't give him the choice. He gets that about every fifth feeding. One of the other five is other frozen foods such as the formulas or Ocean nutrition's Reef formula or Reef mix, I forget what they call it.

I know 39 is way to high and I have tried to bring it down slowly, but I think I was having problems with slow moving water and salt accumulating in the aragonite. Then after I had cleaned the tank and done a water change the engineer gobbys wouldn't be happy because I messed with there set up. The whole tank would get red done over night and every bit of aragonite moved. That problem should be solved now with the higher flow rates, but more recently I got a bit of evaporation.

Yeah my stuff has not levels have not been perfect and that is why I am keeping hardy stuff at this point until I can get my system really plumed. I am crossing my fingers that one of the Delaware reef club members will be coming over to help me drill several tanks.

I'm sick of little water changes often with little tanks. I don't mind doing them, but knowing how to plum my tanks and knowing the stability I will get is killing me. I was going to purchase a lighting system next, but I think I am going to get a Dr. DAQ and Dr. Aquarium. I would like to do a more elaborate set up, but I've tried for a long time to figure out how to set up more probes with other DAQs and it seems people have done it, but never document how. So all I can be told is I will have to learn how to write my own code. 16 credits at UD including some crazy hard courses is enough to study.

[melev]

I don't know of much livestock that will live at 39ppt. Just drop it to 35ppt and call it done. I wouldn't even be gradual about it. Just get it where it needs to be, and be sure to top off daily with freshwater to keep it at that point from now on.

Of course, it's your tank. You have to decide what you think is best.

[affan]

adjusting = calibration.

[Gordonious]

I think that is on my to do list for tomorrow. (calibrating) Wish I had some standards at home.

[melev]

To calibrate a refractometer, I'd use some distilled water. This should set it to 0. Salifert makes a calibration to set it to 35ppt, IIRC.

[LargeAngels]

As far as feeding The French I would use Formula 1, 2, Angel formula, Nori and Mysis shrimp. Many small feedings is really the best way to feed them and the best way to have them put on weight. If there is a particular food he does not like then feed that food when you have gone the longest from feeding him/her and only a little. I also really like Spectrum pellets. I also have the Hikari marine pellets, but all my angels seem to prefer the spectrum. Variety and small feedings is the key. Keep in mind that the French browses for food all day long. I can't remember the exact #'s, but the # of times per hour an angel picks for food in nature was astounding.

[Gordonious]

Which of the Spectrum pellets? I used to use them for my large fresh water animals often, but last time I ran out I stopped buying them because I had not heard them being mentioned as often.

[Cuby2k]

Worst birthday of your life? Dude, wait til you get a little older . . .

[LargeAngels]

I use the smaller Marine Spectrum pellets. I have found that most angels will eat this. Even Venustus and Red Sea Regals. One Red Sea regal almost only the pellets and it eats them like crazy.

[Gordonious]

I need to find the large formula pellets in an LFS. When I bought them before I was kind of in a rush because of who I brought with me to the LFS so I just grabbed them once I found then on the two massive walls of fish food at that pet place. Of course I grabbed the small ones which are cum size and my angle hardly even sees them and if he his facing the wrong way and they land they are no good.(one eye) I have never fed nori before I will have to look into that. Thanks for the input LargeAngels and AngelFish thanks for messaging LargeAngels.
I need to beef up my cleaner crew a bit in that tank. I bought a ton of hermits at one point and I think I may have had a few species that attacked the others. Some people say most hermits are safe, some say none, and no one seems to have proof one way or another. I have been thinking for over a year now about conducting an experiment with hermits. I wish I was going to a school or taking classes that could back me up on this, but perhaps I can talk with some of the marine biologist here about it anyways. I got the push to look into it more after listening to a pod cast on talkingreef that talked about people doing more experiments and well documenting what they have done. I'm a senior undergrad and have been through many labs, I think I could write up a good experiment. First step is finding someone that has studied hermits before, even better would be someone who has studied there niche or behavior. I'll post the link when I get it up.

[Gordonious]

Well I'm about at the one year anniversary of my crap birthday last year and I'm worried history may repeat itself. About a week ago I bought another fish for my birthday and he is starting to go down hill. Most everyone in this thread was very helpful last year I am hoping to save this fish while there is still time. Things aren't desperate yet, but I wanted to start to gather info now if things go down hill further.

Please check out this thread if you have a minute to spare.

<A HREF="http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1175404">More info here. </A>

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8062137#post8062137 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
To calibrate a refractometer, I'd use some distilled water. This should set it to 0. Salifert makes a calibration to set it to 35ppt, IIRC.

Mark, a large percentage of hobbiest refractometers wont calibrate correctly with distilled/RODI. Essentially the slope on them is correct, but the offset isnt, so if you calculate with RODI, you're going to be off by a couple PPT on the entire scale.

[Gordonious]

I never trusted calibrating anyting to 0 or to just a single point.

[melev]

Thanks Rich. I'll get some refractometer calibration solution next time I order drygoods.