RO/DI noisy!

[Shekki]

I recently installed the Coralife Pure-flow II with a Kent Marine auto shut off. The solenoid makes a horrible chirping sound every 20 seconds when NOT producing water. I have it set up according to the instructions. I've tried backing down the incoming water pressure, but that doesn't help. The line shakes violently when this happens.

Hopefully someone knows of a fix. It's driving me crazy.

Robb

[McBeck]

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer and/or retailer?

[Shekki]

I've been in contact with Kent Marine and my retailer. The retailer has never heard of this. When this happened a few weeks ago, Kent told me that the solenoid was not designed for use as a top off system. The problem disappeared for a week and then of my filter cartridge containers cracked and flooded my basement. The LFS gave me a new container and now the noise is back. I emailed Kent again today and they responded by asking me about my setup and where the float valves were located. Hopefully I'll have an answer tomorrow.

Robb

[jdieck]

What is your in line pressure? How is your float switch connected?
Do you have a single float switch or one for high and anotherone for low? Are the switches in 120 V or 12 V?

[tacocat]

Did you install the metal check valve on the output of the RO housing?

[AZDesertRat]

You are experiencing water hammer and thats what cracked the housing . Do you have level fluctuations in the area where the float resides? You might need a stilling well to keep the float still or a float with a wider range between on and off.

[Shekki]

The reason I bought this system was to be able to directly top off with RO/DI water. It seems that the float will be fine for my large drum of water but not for the flucuating water in the sump. Any recommendations on what to do next? Is the JBJ auto top off a good product?

[AZDesertRat]

You either need a stilling well for the float or use two float switches with an inch or two differential between them so it is not constantly going on and off.
There are other versions such as here that use an air activated system that has a differential built in:

http://www.spectrapure.com/St_alc_p1.htm

[jdieck]

I would personally go for a dual float switch system. Although the stilling well may solve the issue of triggering a single float will turn on the RO/DI unit to add relatively small amounts of water, this will deteriorate the water quality as the first water produced from a system is usually contaminated. If having the system on and off frequently it will never reach the point of pure water addition.

[marcrothschild]

I hate to get off topic, but jdieck.....that is one hell of a website you have.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7953029#post7953029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marcrothschild
I hate to get off topic, but jdieck.....that is one hell of a website you have.
Thanks!

[Shekki]

I agree on the amazing website Jdieck! Here I am feeling like an idiot because I can't get a little top off issue resolved and you have a national aquarium in your house. Just how many MH lights do you have running and what is your electric bill like? Anyway, Kent emailed me back today and said I should try the float in the upmost position. I did that and am patiently waiting for my water to top off. Then we'll see if the squealing continues.

Robb

[jdieck]

The main runs three 400W MH and four 96W PC actinics. the prop tank uses two 250 MH and two 55 W T-5 actinics, the refugium one 175 MH and 110W PCs. The Q tank uses a 250 W MH.

The power bill for the aquarium alone is around $100.00 what kills me is the house air con.

[hex1]

Are you talking about the water valve on/off solenoid, the relay that controls the float switch or the actual R/O filters making the noise?
I used to get a very loud vibration ie"'water hammer" on my RO filters. the manufacturer said it was air in the lines & suggested i take the entire filter unit and while running the water slowy rotate it upside down and back 5 to 10 times to dislodge the air bubble,, that solved it. you mentioning the filter housing being cracked leads me to the air bubble theory

[AZDesertRat]

Water hammer is the result of the water oscillating backwards and forwards caused by the solenoid turning on and off. It does not require air although air can make it worse. It can easily build up pressure in the 100s of pounds which would result in failures such as the housing cracking. That is why you never close a valve rapidly in a closed system. An extreme example would be closing a fire hydrant under full flow and pressure, something has to give and its usually the weakest point such as nearby plastic water services or PVC piping. The solenoid valve is just a smaller example of the same thing resulting in a brittle plastic housing failing.

[Shekki]

Now a new problem. I adjusted both of my floats down so they'd have more time in the closed position. That worked. Now the waste water keeps flowing even though NO filtered water is being put out. Am I out of my mind or do I have a defective part somewhere? I did the "put everything together with the water running" trick as well. I've emailed Kent again so I'll have to wait till tomorrow to see what their suggestion is.

Robb

[jdieck]

Do you have an ASOV (Auto shut off valve)? It is the boxy part that has four connections into it. When the pressure in the product line rises it will shut off the input to the membrane thus cutting the waste water flow also.
http://www.purelyh2o.com/images/P/aso.jpg

[john rochon]

WELL I'LL be damned! I just posted the same thing!! I'm having the exact same issue. shakes like hell every 10 or 20 seconds for awhile then stopds until the next fill.
how can I add 2 float swicthes to 1 shutoff??details please.
I guess I need to drill my sump again.
does 1 float swicth need to be slightly higher than the other and T'd off before going to the unit?
I bought this setup under the impression I could get rid! of my big garbage can bucket

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7956468#post7956468 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by john rochon
WELL I'LL be damned! I just posted the same thing!! I'm having the exact same issue. shakes like hell every 10 or 20 seconds for awhile then stopds until the next fill.
how can I add 2 float swicthes to 1 shutoff??details please.
I guess I need to drill my sump again.
does 1 float swicth need to be slightly higher than the other and T'd off before going to the unit?
I bought this setup under the impression I could get rid! of my big garbage can bucket
Float switches not float valves. In an electrical control that turns the solenoid on and off. The lower switch ovens the valve the higher switch turns it off, the float is located higher than the higher switch in case the switch fails to turn the solenoid off the float will prevent a float.
Let me know if this clarify if not I can post a diagram later today.

[john rochon]

ahh my bad, I was wondering how 2 float ''valves'' could work together LOL.guess this would mean the KENTS float valve and autoshutoof are basically useless?? I'd need a double switch kit before the RO.
could I just leave the float valve inplace as backup but the higher swicth would need to be equal to the valve correct.

[rigleautomotive]

JD>>>i hate to chime in like this but.i am running a kalk pail with a float valve coming from rodi.it keeps thepail full and i dose off that.my ro has a perastilic pump and a couple gallon drinking water vessel which is pressurized.is what you said above true in my case where i am putting impure water in cause i am only adding small amount at one time.TIA,

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7957462#post7957462 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rigleautomotive
JD>>>i hate to chime in like this but.i am running a kalk pail with a float valve coming from rodi.it keeps thepail full and i dose off that.my ro has a perastilic pump and a couple gallon drinking water vessel which is pressurized.is what you said above true in my case where i am putting impure water in cause i am only adding small amount at one time.TIA,
Yes you probably are.
I am in a rush but I will post a solution when I come back.

[rigleautomotive]

thanks,whenever you have time

[Shekki]

J,

I don't have that part. Is that a hardware store part or do I have to order it online? When I told the LFS that Kent didn't recommend using their product for evaporation top off, they looked at me like I was crazy.

Robb

[jdieck]

Sorry Shekki, you do not need that part. Your system operates a bit differently.
Here is how it should work.
The Kent Pressure solenoid installed at the input of the membrane lets the input water pass when the pressure on the product line is low (Float is open), when the float closes the pressure in the product line increases, this pressure increase actuates the pressure solenoid which in turn closes the water input to the membrane thus shutting off the supply. If working properly all water into the membrane is stopped and no waste water shall run.
Here is what you need to check:

a) The Pressure solenoid has three ports, one is for the water inlet, the other is for the membrane input and the third one is were you connect the T off line from the product line. Check that the pressure solenoid is installed properly on the inlet of the membrane and that the inlet line is connected to it (Check that you are using the right port), the solenoid is attached to the membrane trough the the inlet and that the T line is also attached propely.

b) Air trapped inside the pressure detection chamber of the solenoid can prevent it from closing. Folow the Kent instructions to purge it out. Basically close the inlet to the unit, install a bucket under the solenoid, disconnect the T off line from the solenoid, and point it down to the bucket, open the inlet to the unit adn connect the T off line back to the solenoid while it is working and full of water.

c) Check that the check valve is properly installed at the membrane product line output. Without this check valve you will have this symphtom.... The float closes, the pressure increase, the solenoid closes the pressure drops the solenoid opens again and keep cycling like crazy for ever. The check valve prevents the pressure to drop by preventing back flow trough the membrane into the waste line.

d) Check thet there are no leaks on your product line. Even small leaks will prevent the pressure to rise enough for the pressure solenoid to actuate.

e) Finally just wait. depending on your inlet pressure it might take 5 to 10 minutes for the pressure to build up high enough to turn off the solenoid.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7958316#post7958316 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shekki
J,

I don't have that part. Is that a hardware store part or do I have to order it online? When I told the LFS that Kent didn't recommend using their product for evaporation top off, they looked at me like I was crazy.

Robb
Forgot to mention that the most probable reason that they do not recommend it is two fold.
If the top of float fails the system will get flooded causing water all over plus a large drop in salinity that may kill your critters.
The second reason is what I mentioned regarding the accumulation of impurities on the product side when the system is off released to the aquarium when turned on.

[jdieck]

OK here is what I would suggest for a top off system.
Going directly to the sump will always be riskier and the purity will never be as good as producing to a reservoir in large batches of production and use a peristaltic pump either on a timer or a second float system to transfer the water from the reservoir to the sump but going direct will be cheaper for obvious reasons.

Reef Only System:
This method do not require the ASOV valve.
For this installation you need a dual float switch top off controller (I recommend using low voltage one), you also need an electrical actuated normally closed solenoid rated for 100 psi with a coil rated for the voltage output of the top off controller (usually 110V but there are some out there that output at 12 or 24 volts).

Two float switches are used to provide a more positive control of the solenoid and to allow for more flexibility in selecting the amount of water to be produced with every batch.
The lower float switch will turn the solenoid ON then opening the inlet line to the membrane and start producing water. When the water level reaches the top float switch it will turn the solenoid off cutting the water feed to the membrane and as a result the waste water too.
By setting the height between the two floats you can adjust the amount of water that gets produced on each batch, the larger the batch the better the purity but if you go directly to the sump you need to insure that the size of the batch does not significantly affects the salinity and make it swing too much so the smaller the aquarium volume the smaller the production batch should be.

Also notice that a float valve is also used at the outlet of the product line. This valve located higher than the high level float switch will never close unless the controller or the high float fails to turn the solenoid off. In this case the float valve will prevent a flood in the system but note that it will not cut off the waste water if the solenoid has not been activated.
If you want to have the benefit of also cut off the waste water then you need the ASOV installed and locate the solenoid as described in the second diagram below.
http://reef.diesyst.com/RODITopoffnoasov.GIF

Reef System with Drink Water supply If you have a drinking water system, I suggest the set up below.
In addition to above parts you need a check valve. It is similar to the one above but the solenoid is moved to the product line. When the solenoid closes (assuming the drinking water is closed) the increase in pressure in the product line will cause the ASOV to close then cutting the supply to the membrane and closing the waste water.
When the lower float turns the solenoid open the check valve will prevent the bladder tank to empty into the reservoir so even when the top off is open filling the reservoir you will still have the water in the bladder to drink.
http://reef.diesyst.com/RODITopoffdrink.GIF

Note for Shekki or those using the Kent pressure actuated solenoid: The Kent pressure actuated solenoid perform the functions of the ASOV valve. You can use this same setup in your system just insure that the T off pressure line that actuates the Pressure Solenoid is T off in the product line right after the membrane and before the DI (or GAC filter if also using drinking system) filter.

http://reef.diesyst.com/RODIKenttopoff.GIF


Hope this helps.

[rigleautomotive]

JD,it looks like i need 2 float switches,a top off controller and solenoid andpower adapter.where can i get these parts.this set up you recommend will give me better water to the kalk bucket,correct.TIA

[jdieck]

You can get the top off controller with the floats and adapter included at:
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RF-RFLC&Category_Code=Dosers
Note that this controller has open floats (no snail guard) which work perfectly for an RO/DI reservoir. If you use the floats in your sump or aquarium the floats will have to be adapted to operate inside PVC pipe to prevent snails or similar critters from making them stuck this mod is not difficult if the case may be.

The solenoid you can get at:
http://autotopoff.com/products/S/index.htm

[Shekki]

So here's the latest from Kent: They're pretty sure my solenoid is bad because water flows through it even when it's not calling for water. They're going to send me a new one. They also told me to disconnect the float from my sump, as this is probably what ruined the solenoid in the first place. Looks like I'm nearly back to square one!

I'm going to check out the link above and maybe that will end this once and for all.

Robb

[Shekki]

I just checked out the link and that looks like a nice setup. I can still use the one kent float and solenoid to fill my barrel of filtered water. Now I just need to pump the water to my sump, which is about 9 feet of lift. Any recommendations on a submersible pump?

Robb

[rigleautomotive]

JD . i dont mean to sound stupid but it does not look like the kent float valve is doing anything here.is it a saftey .the water level will never reach it unless the high float switch fails.

[rigleautomotive]

what micron do you suggest.my ro di is just like your figure JD ,nice job,it helped greatly.thanks

[Thefilterguys]

OK well now I don't have to ask JD been following this thread and was about to ask for more of your great drawing skills. One last piece of the puzzle to add auto topoff to our line of products.

Notice we have moved up to an RC sponsor this week and now have a little more freedom to post.

Jim

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7964707#post7964707 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shekki
I just checked out the link and that looks like a nice setup. I can still use the one kent float and solenoid to fill my barrel of filtered water. Now I just need to pump the water to my sump, which is about 9 feet of lift. Any recommendations on a submersible pump?

Robb
I think that having a pure reservoir is the way to go purity wise but it become costly as you need a second float for the sump to operate the pump. If you go for the expense then I would recommend to take advantage of it and get a doser pump rather than a submersible one and have it top off using Kalk so you can "hit two balls with the same bat"
Otherwise just go direct to the sump and have a regular reservoir and float valve to accumulate RO/DI for water changes.

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7965696#post7965696 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rigleautomotive
JD . i dont mean to sound stupid but it does not look like the kent float valve is doing anything here.is it a saftey .the water level will never reach it unless the high float switch fails.
On the contrary that is precisely what it is for. The float of the float switch contains a magnet and slides on a pole that contains a reed switch which is closed when the magnet slides in front of it. Detritus or similar things may make the float get stuck if not regularly maintained so there are more chances a float switch can fail than a float valve so the valve will be there doing absolutely nothing until you need it. It is one of those things that it is better to have and do not need than need and do not have.
Remember? Design it to fail :D
Here is what the floats look like installed in a Rubbermaid 32 gal Brute can I use as a reservoir to feed the Kalk reactor.
http://reef.diesyst.com/floats.jpg

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7967463#post7967463 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Thefilterguys
OK well now I don't have to ask JD been following this thread and was about to ask for more of your great drawing skills. One last piece of the puzzle to add auto topoff to our line of products.

Notice we have moved up to an RC sponsor this week and now have a little more freedom to post.

Jim
Nice to see you guys became an sponsor. Welcome!

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7964660#post7964660 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shekki
So here's the latest from Kent: They also told me to disconnect the float from my sump, as this is probably what ruined the solenoid in the first place. Looks like I'm nearly back to square one!

Robb
It really does not make much sense to remove the float if that is precisely what they sell the solenoid for.
What is your tap pressure?, May be the check valve is failing also or has some back flow that create the effect.
In any case if you go for the float switches and electronic solenoid and you do not have drinking tap then you can just get rid of the Kent and use the first diagram for your setup.
IMO the kent valve might be too sensitive to pressure changes in the signal line and has no delay or latching capability like an ASOV does. I have used single floats with ASOV valves and never had the feedback rattling problem.

[rigleautomotive]

here is a mistake i made a while back maybe it will help someone to not make the same.the kent float kit came with a ck valve and in the directions it said to remove the original fitting and reuse it on another port if necessary.i did and it made my ro produce some bad water.40 or 50 tds.after freaking out for a couple of hours checking everything including changing membranes i found the ro i had already had a ch valve and i had 2 on my system not 1 where it was suppose to be.it is a stupid mistake but i think it is worth mentioning.

[Shekki]

So, another trip to the LFS, "THE AQUARIUM" and I have a conversation with the owner, who is a super nice and well educated man. The have some incredible tanks in their store, plus they do custom installs. Needless to say, they know their products. I went there to tell them that Kent doesn't recommend using that system to top off evaporated water. He told me that nearly all the systems in the store and over 50 local installs have the exact setup as me. He has never heard of my issue but is willing to help nonetheless. When I relayed the message from Kent, which was use the system to fill a resevoir and then pump it to the sump, the manager's first comment was " Then the float on the resevoir is acting just like to float in the sump." He's right. If I'm only pumping a little at a time out of the resevoir, THAT float switch will only call for a little amount of water. Kooky. He also told me how to check my check valve and with that newfound knowledge I do believe my check valve is bad. Maybe that was the problem all along and my solenoid was fine. Anyone know where to find a replacement check valve for the RO/DI unit?

Robb

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7977311#post7977311 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shekki
So, another trip to the LFS, "THE AQUARIUM" and I have a conversation with the owner, who is a super nice and well educated man. The have some incredible tanks in their store, plus they do custom installs. Needless to say, they know their products. I went there to tell them that Kent doesn't recommend using that system to top off evaporated water. He told me that nearly all the systems in the store and over 50 local installs have the exact setup as me. He has never heard of my issue but is willing to help nonetheless. When I relayed the message from Kent, which was use the system to fill a resevoir and then pump it to the sump, the manager's first comment was " Then the float on the resevoir is acting just like to float in the sump." He's right. If I'm only pumping a little at a time out of the resevoir, THAT float switch will only call for a little amount of water. Kooky. He also told me how to check my check valve and with that newfound knowledge I do believe my check valve is bad. Maybe that was the problem all along and my solenoid was fine. Anyone know where to find a replacement check valve for the RO/DI unit?

Robb

Robb:
you might have missed the comment I made above..
I think that having a pure reservoir is the way to go purity wise but it become costly as you need a second float for the sump to operate the pump. If you go for the expense then I would recommend to take advantage of it and get a doser pump rather than a submersible one and have it top off using Kalk so you can "hit two balls with the same bat"
Otherwise just go direct to the sump and have a regular reservoir and float valve to accumulate RO/DI for water changes.
In other words if you want to produce large amounts of water in every batch to improve th epurity you need the reservoir with the two float switches and then another two switches in the sump to operate a doser pump from the reservoir to the sump and while you are at it pass it trough a Kalk reactor.
So what I means is that it will be a lot more expensive so in your case do not use the reservoir but I still recommend the use of the two float switches and top off controller in the sump. It still give you a better purity and prevent the system from turning on and off too often.

In any case in my post about troubleshooting the Kent pressure solenoid I recommended to test your check valve as it could be part of the problem.
If you need a replacement I am sure Jim from purely H2o who posted above could help.

Here is what you need to check:

a) The Pressure solenoid has three ports, one is for the water inlet, the other is for the membrane input and the third one is were you connect the T off line from the product line. Check that the pressure solenoid is installed properly on the inlet of the membrane and that the inlet line is connected to it (Check that you are using the right port), the solenoid is attached to the membrane trough the the inlet and that the T line is also attached propely.

b) Air trapped inside the pressure detection chamber of the solenoid can prevent it from closing. Folow the Kent instructions to purge it out. Basically close the inlet to the unit, install a bucket under the solenoid, disconnect the T off line from the solenoid, and point it down to the bucket, open the inlet to the unit adn connect the T off line back to the solenoid while it is working and full of water.

c) Check that the check valve is properly installed at the membrane product line output and it is in proper order. Without this check valve you will have this symphtom.... The float closes, the pressure increase, the solenoid closes the pressure drops the solenoid opens again and keep cycling like crazy for ever. The check valve prevents the pressure to drop by preventing back flow trough the membrane into the waste line.

d) Check that there are no leaks on your product line. Even small leaks will prevent the pressure to rise enough for the pressure solenoid to actuate.

e) Finally just wait. depending on your inlet pressure it might take 5 to 10 minutes for the pressure to build up high enough to turn off the solenoid.

[Thefilterguys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7979805#post7979805 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Robb:

If you need a replacement I am sure Jim from purely H2o who posted above could help.[/I]



JD I can help but it's thefilterguys.biz and yes we have both membrane check valves and inline check valves.

Jim

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7980652#post7980652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Thefilterguys
JD ...it's thefilterguys.biz

Jim

Now I am really embarrased. Sorry..:sad1:

[Shekki]

Jim,

Thanks for the offer and if Kent doesn't come through with the replacement parts I will be in contact.

Robb