disturbing zoanthid trend

[Blitz99]

on my local reefer forum i am noticing the same disturbing trend i am noticing here and the other boards as well. PRICES!!! people pay 50 dollars for a single polyp of x palythoa... it multiplies and they then charge 50 per polyp... now, am i wrong to think that you should be trying to break even, not make a 100 percent profit for each paly/zoa sold? profiting in this seems kind of petty and disturbing... i was considering buying a 50 dollar polyp but i thought better of it as i would never frag my colonies to make a buck. Trading is one thing, but the money that things are selling for now is flat out silly.

flame away if you believe i am mistaken.

[Bebo77]

no its true.. i was at a local frag swap and they were selling all zoas for $5 a polyp and more.. what the... thats retail price... I have been to the wholesellers here in LA and you can buy a rock the size of your fist for $15 covered in zoas. It really is the hobbiest that is driving these prices higher.

[eckrynock]

Ditto

[Blitz99]

it's a shame that we reefers are the ones to blame this time.

[drouner]

Is it a shame that they are sold at $50 or people are paying $50.

I do have to say that I paid $40 for one polyp of Armor of God. If and when it is time to frag I will probably sell them for alot less.

I can say that this one has already made 4 more less than a month.

The problem that I have is much like SPS, pictures are not always what they look like in your tank. So paying $50 or $40 is taking a risk.

[FunGuy]

I agree with what everyone has said about the disturbing trend of crazy prices.

I think we all need to just do our part in not buying when prices are outrageous and eventually prices will go down since the market can't support it. Let's make this an affordable hobby.

[twon8]

If the zoa in question was grown out in a tank, it should cost more than a wild chopped up colony. 50 a polyp is ridiculous, but if I had a bunch going for that, I can say I would have to try and make some money from them

[MrChico]

Zoas will cost what the market can bear. I personally won't spend that much, but if money wasn't an issue, then I would have a tank full of some pretty cool stuff.

As long as doctors and lawyers and the alike are in the hobby then there will always be a niche for some really nice high priced items.

[bobafett]

The sad thing is that sooner or later these "rare" morphs usually turn up in my LFS and I pick them up at a fraction of the cost. Example - I recently picked up a 7 polyp frag of the really nice RPE's with the bluish mouth for only $10.


It's even sadder when people start playing with lighting or even worse photoshop to make their zoos look really nice and appealing just to make a few more bucks. I'm not mentioning names but a few are sponsors here on RC.

[Jon in SW Ohio]

Like any hobby, some "collectibles" are much more desirable than others and people want them badly enough to spend much more on them. I know I've spent a good deal of money for a collection of ones I "must have now!" and have done the same with all things I collect.

The nice thing about coral and orchids(my other hobby) is that they multiply and can then be traded for other desirable ones. From my initial investment, I can probably trade for all the other ones I want in a coulple months time.

[Peter Eichler]

It's quite sad. Years ago when propagation wasn't very common the few people that were doing weren't doing it to make money, they were doing it to help out other hobbyists. Some people like myself traded in frags to the LFS for small amounts of credit when there wasn't another hobbyist. Now so much of it is based on greed and it's a sad time in this hobby as a result.

Companies that have this LE nonsense and polyps that they're charging $20+ a polyp for should be ashamed of themselves.

[aSixyReef]

its even worse when you try to sell at reasonable prices and the buyer turns around and sells the colony or small frags of it for a profit. ive had that happen several times. i tried to help people out to save them some money and they took advantage of me. i think twice before selling anything b/c i know i HAVE to charge X amount or screw myself.

i usually only trade now.

[mecold]

I definately think charging $50 or so per polyp is insane, but truth be told I have spent $45 for a three polyp frag of phes, and way more than I care to admit for the 20 polyp colony of my purple palys (long story, but they are truly unique in the hobby thus far). That said, I can see asking a little bit more for a really nice polyp, but not $40 though. Of course, if you buy more, the price generally goes down.

[smp]

This issue has been brought up many times before.
I'm not one to spend 20 dollars a polyp for any zoo, BUT I totally understand why people charge so much .. because others will pay it.
This is what the market is all about, if someone will pay 20 a polyp, someone will sell it for that much.

Do you expect any different from fruit growers, or dress makers or what have you?

It's just the market. I'm not happy about it either and I don't pay that much for zoos.

However, I did pay 60 bucks for a tiny acan frag this past weekend .. I dont' regret it, it's doing well in my tank and I love it. Hopefully I'll have a nice healthy colony one day and it'll be worth it.

[ViPeR_930]

I know for a fact that an entire colony of lunar eclipse zoas are about $22 bucks give or take at wholesale price. And that's for a colony with about 200-300 polyps.

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8000016#post8000016 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aSixyReef
its even worse when you try to sell at reasonable prices and the buyer turns around and sells the colony or small frags of it for a profit. ive had that happen several times. i tried to help people out to save them some money and they took advantage of me. i think twice before selling anything b/c i know i HAVE to charge X amount or screw myself.

i usually only trade now.

completely agree with all of the above. and has anyone else noticed the trend of all these stressed zoas that are dying on people lately? i sure dont remember these types of posts in large numbers ever before. its all this chop shop mentality, to make frags of colonies, then make frags of those frags, and then make 5 polyp frags of what is left to sell. all of this chopping up and selling in a weeks time before it goes to another person has stressed zoas out so much people arent having anything more than a 75% survival rate once it gets to the home aquarium......pretty sad if you ask me.

i dont like selling much, as i tend to have a philosophy of "if you aren't helping the problem, you are part of it". so i only do trades. i only sell stuff if i need to make room for other stuff and no one wants to trade.

[Polyptician]

I think some prices are justified due to genuine rarity. I would site as an example the ppe. They have not been available in large numbers until very recently. And I think you can see that there price is slowly coming down.

Also, I believe that genuine aquacultured frags should command a higher price because they have not been harvested from the wild, are hardier and should be pest free. Plus the farmer took time and space to grow the frag out.

I agree that some of the prices are a bit high. 40 dollars a polyp for most zoas seems outrageous. I think that value will be realized once those cool looking but "hard to find" morphs start flooding the lfs which they will in due time. For instance I have seen a ton of the eye of rah lately at the lfs. I had never seen one in person before last month, now theyre coming in every week.

In defence of the price craze we must understand that zoas have become collectables. There size and seemingly endless variation of colors is attractive. Its fun to collect things and more desirable collectables like anything else demand a higher price. Zoaid I think has spurred this craze with showing the masses what is out there. Broadening our zoa knowledge from the often dull frags we see at local fish stores.

I think we just need to use common sense. Buy aquacultured. Dont buy from the guy who obiously bought the 15 dollar frag and is clearly cutting that rock up into 10 frags and making 1500 dollars.

Whatever you do, dont do, spend or dont spend. Lets just have fun enjoying our zoas.

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8000997#post8000997 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BryanBusza

I think we just need to use common sense. Buy aquacultured. Dont buy from the guy who obiously bought the 15 dollar frag and is clearly cutting that rock up into 10 frags and making 1500 dollars.


i think thats the big question...as most of these places you see selling large frag packs, over 75% of the time they are chop shopped. and no where near aquacultured. its so obvious seeing the same people on here, ebay, nanoreef, and 2 other sites. buy in one place, turn around and sell in another.

IMO the only way you can be sure they are aquacultured have not been stressed by chopping up and shipped multiple times in the recent past is if they are on frag plugs, or if you know the seller.

[Reefski's]

i would like to see osme pictures of these incredible Zoa's. anyone who has one of these amazingly expensive ones please post a picture or two.

[smp]

I think a lot of people experience dissapointment when they get a certain zoa that they've seen pictures of .. pictures are more often than not taken under 20k lighting and had their levels played with in photoshop. I'm not saying that this is wrong, because they really do look that good in some people's tanks .. but IMO, if you're some kid that's all excited about zoos and you're running PCs or something and you get those eye of rahs that were shot under 20k 400 watt halides .. you're in for a surprise.
I was!

[MorandiWine]

I totally agree with the spirit if this thread! Being a LFS owner, I see people coming into my store and accusing me of having high prices etc. And not to toot my own horn, but I would say that I am more than reasonable with my pricing unlike some of my competition here in the SF Bay Area. So a couple times I simply got on a web site of a local store who happened to be selling frags that were EXACTLY the same as what I was selling and his were 150% more. Yet I digress.

Its a free market if you feel that you have to have so-and-so's Zoa that you paid $100 a polyp thats your deal. But dont scream at your LFS for ripping you off. Case in point is the link that I have at the bottom of this relpy. I dont know the company, I dont know who they are, but I can bet that this is someone who DOES NOT have a retail and DOES see out of this garage/etc.

Take a look, I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw this!!!

http://www.frags.org/memberfragdetails.php?fid=2561

Thanks

tyler

[grisha]

hey, anybody here have cats eyes for cheap?
thats it
and seriosly i went to by a flowers for my girlfriend and they charge me fourty bucks, boom and it was gone she just said thank you.
i really wish salt, electric bill and other things would cost a lot less in my tank
so if it is a fact that nobody in my area have X polys i will pay thirty a poly just because it is part of the fun
hte problem every time some body post rare stuff for cheap it is gone by the time you able to pm, or it is a crook like a guy with the PPE a month ago, so you go to well established ripp offs like bestfrags.$$$ to make sure
and after this why would you charge less
best way is a trade

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8001859#post8001859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MorandiWine
I totally agree with the spirit if this thread! Being a LFS owner, I see people coming into my store and accusing me of having high prices etc. And not to toot my own horn, but I would say that I am more than reasonable with my pricing unlike some of my competition here in the SF Bay Area. So a couple times I simply got on a web site of a local store who happened to be selling frags that were EXACTLY the same as what I was selling and his were 150% more. Yet I digress.

Its a free market if you feel that you have to have so-and-so's Zoa that you paid $100 a polyp thats your deal. But dont scream at your LFS for ripping you off. Case in point is the link that I have at the bottom of this relpy. I dont know the company, I dont know who they are, but I can bet that this is someone who DOES NOT have a retail and DOES see out of this garage/etc.

Take a look, I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw this!!!

http://www.frags.org/memberfragdetails.php?fid=2561

Thanks

tyler

well, the thing with those polyps in question, is that there are only 2 other people who have them (at least to the publics knowledge). if you can find someone/somewhere who has true orange people eaters (not faded red ones under 10k) by all means, share with the class!! :)

enough people beg him for them, and they dont grow, so he can ask whatever he wants.

i know alot of people dont like ebay. but its still the most true predictor of the going rate for X or Y polyp if the auction starts at $0. (i.e. no buy it now or reserves). if people are willing to pay $X for Y polyp, more power to them, if they arent willing to pay that much, then the seller has no business saying that his polyps are worth that much if he cant sell them for that much.

[Mr. Ugly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8000928#post8000928 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by surfnvb7
completely agree with all of the above. and has anyone else noticed the trend of all these stressed zoas that are dying on people lately? i sure dont remember these types of posts in large numbers ever before. its all this chop shop mentality, to make frags of colonies, then make frags of those frags, and then make 5 polyp frags of what is left to sell. all of this chopping up and selling in a weeks time before it goes to another person has stressed zoas out so much people arent having anything more than a 75% survival rate once it gets to the home aquarium......pretty sad if you ask me.
Yah, what he said. And 75% is being generous too.

[smp]

Anyone think that high mortality has something to do with all the newbs jumping into the hobby and starting with zoos?!!!
Personally, I think this forum is full of teenagers that just got their first 20 gallon SW tank and they are posting asking "is this a PPE", "are these OPEs?", "are these raspberry limeaids?", "How much are these worth?" etc

you get a good enough bandwagon and enough people jump aboard that have zero experience.
I'm not one to talk though, I've been in the hobby less than a year. I'm certainly no teenager though and I don't buy things because they are rare .. commodity fetishism isn't what I'm about. I'm about beautiful zoos! (which means bright colours, short skirts :) )

[Blitz99]

with all that said, i just went and spent 120 bucks on 3 polyps of purple deaths....


i then sold two of them for 120 dollars...


not true at all, but thats what's going on.

[surfnvb7]

like i said....if you arent helping to correct the problem, you are a part of the problem. its pretty cut and dry

[TheBigOne]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8001859#post8001859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MorandiWine

Take a look, I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw this!!!

http://www.frags.org/memberfragdetails.php?fid=2561



Photoshop does cost $500, doesn't it? That makes them $100/polyp. hahahaaaa....


heres an example of smash and grab :
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=95621
someone looking to buy

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=95224
someone who sees an easy mark for a sale. just bought their colony last week!

just because you dont know that selling and shipping unhealed zoa frags is bad is no excuse. ask before you buy people! or else you're just another easy mark.
:rollface:

[TheBigOne]

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8005366#post8005366 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Blitz99
with all that said, i just went and spent 120 bucks on 3 polyps of purple deaths....


i then sold two of them for 120 dollars...


not true at all, but thats what's going on. [/QUOTE

that coming from someone with under 50 posts. :bum:

[Reef Junkie]

This is a trend that has been getting a lot worse lately.
People see an opportunity to make some quick cash and go for it.

Be smart, if you see something you like ask around. Post on this board and I'm sure you'll get some great responses that will save you some cash.

Watch out especially for ebay auctions. There are a few reputable sellers on there, but a lot of garbage. Photoshop heaven.

If you think someone is price gauging, post about it.

[msman825]

I agree with R/J about this trend. What about the folks that bought OPE'S for a 100 a polyp. I bet they were some sold fast for 500$ And there are more than 2 peeps that have them right here on RC

[redFishblue]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8005434#post8005434 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by surfnvb7
like i said....if you arent helping to correct the problem, you are a part of the problem. its pretty cut and dry

I read and agree with what you said about ebay and if someone is willing to bid an crazy price for a couple polyps, more power to them.
But high prices on ebay might then inspire high prices for the same zoas sold elsewhere.
So in effect, sellers on ebay are not helping to correct the problem and are part of the "problem" of high pirces as well?

[drouner]

Again, who's at fault. The seller, buyer or a hobby that has to certain point "trying to keep up with the Jones" syndrome.

Now to defend that, usually it is the experienced hobbyst who through time has created a beautiful tank and newbie's jumping in and wanting the same results fast.

But I also see everyday, the "if you don't have this skimmer or that coral then you are not worthy". "I will show you this is you show me yours". It drives the market crazy. It is all over these boards.

Today I went in my favorite LFS and they are selling dendros the size of peas for $75 a peice. I asked why and they tell me that you can't get them anymore and that is what they are going for online. As much as I would like to have one I said no thanks. The guy then tells me that they are selling like hot cakes. The reason is someone now thinks that they can sell them down the line at $75 each on day. By then maybe they will not be the flavor of the day.

I know a guy right down the road that bought LR full of PPE for like $50. He first sold them at $10 a polyp, then ran into the chop shop guys and felt cheated. Now he sells them for $40 just to keep everyone honest.

I see it in my other passion of fly fishing. When I first started I remember a guy coming over to me stating that I had to have $400 real and $400 fly rod to catch trout. I stood there with my dad's 45 yr old rod and a Wal Mart special reel. I caught fish just as well as he did that day. But as I gained expereinced I learned the hobby and upgraded the equipment. I just did not start off walking out of an Orvis store. Just because you shopped at Orvis does not make you a good fly fisherman.

[TheBigOne]

i do, however, enjoy searching ebay for "rare live coral" some stuff on there can be pretty good if you keep checking back. lots of zoas.

[Azurel]

If you think someone is price gauging, post about it.


That pure speculation and conjecture....Why should someone get flamed because you or I think they are gauging? How many bubble corals are out there? The price hasn't dropped over the years very much. You still pay $30-50 for a single colony, same thing with a lot of other corals. If you don't like the price then don't buy it, it's that simple. You can also wait till the price drops if it does. One of the reasons that zoanthids has a serious following is because there is no other coral out there that can compete with the variations in color and size. This is one of the reasons that some can and have a high price, and the ones that don't take for example eagle eyes you won't get much more then a .50-$1 a polyp for those but others like PPE and Purple Deaths and a few others, they are either slow growers or not in large circulation which in business will drive the price up within reason. Large demand/little supply= higher price. I prefer to trade but I will sell a few polyps here and there of some stuff that is a little more costly to help fund the hobby and get new color morphs which helps for trades. All these post crying about prices is getting just as old as "ID these please" threads. IF you don't think somebody is reputable or is gouging in your perception then don't buy from them. There is one site that has gotten outrageous with the prices of there stock and the only reason it has happened is because of the popularity of the site and the reputation of the site owner. I Haven't bought from this site in awhile because of the trend over the last year.....That's how you slow or deflate the prices not by continuing the crying on the boards about the prices, but not giving these folks money. Every person has a certain price standard your's maybe lower or higher then mine, does that mean I should come on the boards and flame you for it? Nope, sure don't, thats your business on how you spend YOUR money you earned it and deserve to not have some stranger flame you for how YOU spend it, that's your business not mine.

I will say though I don't support people that give or have the appearance of being a chop-shop......

[mecold]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8007197#post8007197 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azurel
That pure speculation and conjecture....Why should someone get flamed because you or I think they are gauging? How many bubble corals are out there? The price hasn't dropped over the years very much. You still pay $30-50 for a single colony, same thing with a lot of other corals. If you don't like the price then don't buy it, it's that simple. You can also wait till the price drops if it does. One of the reasons that zoanthids has a serious following is because there is no other coral out there that can compete with the variations in color and size. This is one of the reasons that some can and have a high price, and the ones that don't take for example eagle eyes you won't get much more then a .50-$1 a polyp for those but others like PPE and Purple Deaths and a few others, they are either slow growers or not in large circulation which in business will drive the price up within reason. Large demand/little supply= higher price. I prefer to trade but I will sell a few polyps here and there of some stuff that is a little more costly to help fund the hobby and get new color morphs which helps for trades. All these post crying about prices is getting just as old as "ID these please" threads. IF you don't think somebody is reputable or is gouging in your perception then don't buy from them. There is one site that has gotten outrageous with the prices of there stock and the only reason it has happened is because of the popularity of the site and the reputation of the site owner. I Haven't bought from this site in awhile because of the trend over the last year.....That's how you slow or deflate the prices not by continuing the crying on the boards about the prices, but not giving these folks money. Every person has a certain price standard your's maybe lower or higher then mine, does that mean I should come on the boards and flame you for it? Nope, sure don't, thats your business on how you spend YOUR money you earned it and deserve to not have some stranger flame you for how YOU spend it, that's your business not mine.

I will say though I don't support people that give or have the appearance of being a chop-shop......


Well said. It is nice to get alittle profit from a coral. If it can help offset my hobby and electric bill, I am all for selling a few polyps. I have purchased a few choice frags for high prices, but those are my trade bait :)

[TheBigOne]

^sounds like a defence to selling overpriced corals IMO.

[Azurel]

^sounds like a defence to selling overpriced corals IMO.

See that's what I mean, that's your opinion. Which means what? Nothing. You can't prove it nor have I defended what you think you have an uninformed opinion of. If it's not in your realm of affordablity why bash, **** and moan about it? I would like a eye of the sea but don't have the $700 or Orange envy but don't have the cash to purchase one of those. Have you seen me post a thread about it? Nope you know why? Cause there are other sweet stuff I can afford......So you can have your opinon and that's cool with me as I have mine, and you know what they say about opinions?

[mecold]

No, sounds like telling people to stop whining.

If you don't want to pay high prices, don't. Most of my expensive and rare corals I got for a trade, free, or a reasonable price. The cheap price was due to patience, free was do to fellow hobbiests in my area, and trades was due to generous reefers. Now in turn, I have given away tons of frags to club members in my reef club.

If you don't like waht is being asked for a coral, don't pay it. Wait, and you will eventually find it for less. It may be a few years, but you can get it for less.

[Azurel]

By the way I'm not trying to start an argument I was just stating my opinion on these threads......Like I said "you know what they say about opinions".......NO ill intent ment by any of my post.....I just though I would clarify that before somebody took offense.

[Reef Junkie]

I thinks it's healthy for the community to "out" price gougers.

If this were Ebay or some other site dedicated to musicians, then I can see why it wouldn't be anyones concern.

This is a site dedicated to exactly this, reefkeeping. I believe it's kind of our duty to "out" people that think it's ok to gouge the pockets of our fellow members.

If after you've been warned not to spend the money by fellow reefers and you still do it, then we have a right to make fun of you, plain and simple.

If you knew a store had a reputation for price gouging, would you shop there? Seriously.

[Azurel]

then we have a right to make fun of you, plain and simple.

Are you serious? You have the right? That's a load of bull who are you to tell someone what and where they can spend there cash? Yes you can give them your opinion or advice that's fine. But to sit there and tell me you have the right to make fun of them in public is BS. If there is a case of of outright gouging then that is one thing and I can understand that. But who decides what is gouging to me? You? What is the price for a specific type of polyp? Who sets the price? What the market will bare right? That's how it works in business and if somebody has a morph and want to sell some at market price or under that, I would have no problem with that. IF they try to sell it for more then that well, let say PPE per polyp goes for $35-50 and anything thing over the top price is gouging, sure I can understand that. But because you or I can't afford $50 a polyp doesn't give me the right to disparage your name publicly because you do or can buy one for that price. $50 a polyp might be to much for me, that don't mean your being gouged if you don't think it is and you buy it. That's my point if it isn't blatant then it's all conjecture and speculation of your perceived idea of what gouging is. Just because I or someone else don't agree with you don't make me right and you wrong or vise versa. It also don't mean you have the right to "make fun of" this said person and belittle there name in public. If that's what you think these boards are for and the reef community should do then I seriously think you need to rethink your purpose here. Cause belittling people that don't agree with you or those that share your same ideology is cool and isn't right.

Now in a PM that's different......

[drouner]

I don't understand the gouging statement either. It is just economics 101.

Again, if no ones pays $50 per polyp then the seller will reduce his price until the price point is made. But as long as people pay that then the seller will continue to sell at the $50.

You are blaming the seller, but what about the buyer?

[Reef Junkie]

Well, first off.
I wasn't singling you out. This isn't about you Azurel.

I understand the arguement you can make about marketing, business, economics... Blah Blah Blah. Save that for Ebay.

This is a HOBBY. This is also a board owned, run and shared by HOBBYISTS.

Does that make sense? Or does everyone here just look like a $ sign?

The last time I checked, I have a mortgage, 2 car payments, a student loan and assorted bills to pay monthly, oh yeah a wife and 2 kids.

I believe there are a lot of people on this board just like me. Why should I have to or want pay some price gouging fool a ton of cash for coral when I already have $5k+ of monthly bills already?
Even if I were rich, it goes against common sense.
Price gougers feed on the impulsive and newcomers.

Call me crazy, but whatever it is you're trying to tell me, I'm against it.

Oh, and I would never blatantly make fun of you or anyone here in a hurtful manner. I was joking and apologize for the misunderstanding.;)

[drouner]

I am still confused about why you are calling them price gougers. No, I think it is a two way street. They both feed off each other. I would say most of those impulsive buyers are not in the hobby for the long haul. Wasn't there a debate going on about LE stuff the other day?

This is a hobby, and there are a lot of hobbyst that give way or charge very little for frags. I know that I have given a lot of frags way to newbies. But also the upside is if you want to be impulsive you can as well. To each there own.

I don't have the cash to by a Deltec skimmer. Is Deltec gauging at $400 a pop? My $200 skimmer that was a Christmas present works fine for me. So I am happy.

BTW, I hope you check every month on those bills. LOL. I hate doing that. Rather spend my time in doing anything else instead of trying to figure out where all the $ goes.

Who is that guy in your avitar?

[Azurel]

I never said it was about me nor did I take it that way.....I'm sure to some people we do look like dollar signs....Ever notice the increase of "Id these and how much they worth" threads? Just to have them turn up on eBay. I don't do business or deal with these people. Nor the ones that like to photo-shop pictures.

Why should I have to or want pay some price gouging fool a ton of cash for coral


You don't that's my point nobody says you have to, you can wait or get in a trade at a later time right?

What I'm"trying to tell" you is it is your opinion of what gouging is. That is the standard by which you spend money as I have my standard too. I'm also not saying it is cool to "gouge" people but it is a perceived notion of what the term gouging is.

Call me crazy, but whatever it is you're trying to tell me, I'm against it.

Against what? That different people have different opinions of what gouging is? Ok then you tell me and the hobby what polyps are worth. Hell I say they all should be free cause that's exactly what they are in the ocean right? Should they all be .50? or what? Simply cause we don't want to pay x amount for them. Don't buy them and if everyone don't buy them then the price will drop till someone is willing to buy them for said price.....Even if it isn't "business" in the sense of the word it still is money changing hands. We don't have to agree, but I bet in practice we agree more then you think.....I just have a more open idea of how someone can spend their money and if they want to wizz it away on what is considered an over priced coral wither it be a zoa or SPS then that is there business. But like I said I bet in practice we are more alike then different.

[Reefski's]

i still want to see these faboulous Zoa's. pictures please.

[Reef Junkie]

I couldn't agree with you more.

I do think it's good for people to make a couple of bucks selling their coral, but price gouging is unethical and those people should be outted.

I have been around here for a little while, I have made many friends (and some enemies), but I have consistently tried to guide people in the right direction. That is why this website was made in the first place.

Not just information, wisdom too.

You've got a good head on your shoulders and you agree that it's in our best interest to prevent the successive trend of price gouging.

It's like Al said, you're either helping or hurting. Indifference is hurting.

[redFishblue]

After people are done regulating the price of zoas, they should move on to the LPS forum and do something about the price of the watermelon chalice. Cause I want a big chunk of it for cheap :)

[Reef Junkie]

Heh, you should join your local reef club. I know a friend of mine has the Watermelon Chalice. He sells frags to members cheap and gives them to friends.;)

[Bebo77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8007197#post8007197 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azurel
That pure speculation and conjecture....Why should someone get flamed because you or I think they are gauging? How many bubble corals are out there? The price hasn't dropped over the years very much. You still pay $30-50 for a single colony, same thing with a lot of other corals. If you don't like the price then don't buy it, it's that simple. You can also wait till the price drops if it does. One of the reasons that zoanthids has a serious following is because there is no other coral out there that can compete with the variations in color and size. This is one of the reasons that some can and have a high price, and the ones that don't take for example eagle eyes you won't get much more then a .50-$1 a polyp for those but others like PPE and Purple Deaths and a few others, they are either slow growers or not in large circulation which in business will drive the price up within reason. Large demand/little supply= higher price. I prefer to trade but I will sell a few polyps here and there of some stuff that is a little more costly to help fund the hobby and get new color morphs which helps for trades. All these post crying about prices is getting just as old as "ID these please" threads. IF you don't think somebody is reputable or is gouging in your perception then don't buy from them. There is one site that has gotten outrageous with the prices of there stock and the only reason it has happened is because of the popularity of the site and the reputation of the site owner. I Haven't bought from this site in awhile because of the trend over the last year.....That's how you slow or deflate the prices not by continuing the crying on the boards about the prices, but not giving these folks money. Every person has a certain price standard your's maybe lower or higher then mine, does that mean I should come on the boards and flame you for it? Nope, sure don't, thats your business on how you spend YOUR money you earned it and deserve to not have some stranger flame you for how YOU spend it, that's your business not mine.

I will say though I don't support people that give or have the appearance of being a chop-shop......

:rolleyes: you are part of the problem

[MUCHO REEF]

Can we all agree to keep the peace and allow everyone to state his or her opinion. I'm not taking sides, I just hope we can all make nice and discuss the issues at hand politely.

Mucho Reef

[TheBigOne]

To each their own. some people buy status symbol cars, some the newest latest phone or gaming system each time it comes out, others buy coral. We all know the most expensive cars , phones and etc are NOT the best quality, but that's part of the point, right?

Some people spend money just to say they spent the money. The reef hobby just has a lot of those people.

[Reef Junkie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8009201#post8009201 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheBigOne


Some people spend money just to say they spent the money. The reef hobby just has a lot of those people.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Those are the people I would make fun of. Like a good friend of mine. Spent $thousands$ on trendy corals just so he could say he has them. I make fun of him all the time, but not in a mean spirited way and not behind his back. He reciprocates.:blown:

Yet, I don't think paying the price gougers reflects the core community here on RC. I think everyone here is looking to have these corals, but not at $600 a polyp.

I've publically said something (on these boards) directly to a person that is a price gouger, because I don't feel it's right.
I'm entitled to my opinion and theres a good chance that most of the community here agrees.

Again, this IS the perfect place to complain that someone is a price gouger. Because this is a board dedicated to the hobby. It's kind of our responsibility to do the right thing.

Peace:bum:

[Azurel]

you are part of the problem

Great to be a part of something.....:rolleyes:


I never said that we can't call someone out if in fact they are gouging, but you have to be sure they are before you do other wise it can be considered libel, just be sure that the person is gouging before you publicly disparage someones name.....My point is again at what point is it considered price gouging? Nobody still has given me a definition of it. I'll tell you why, is because it is a personal preference. Should I come on here and call a guy out because he is selling some polyps for $10 a polyp when I think they are only worth $2? That's my point if I believed that then he is gouging in my eye's. That doesn't mean he is in yours or anybody else's. $500 a polyp for orange envy's is ridiculous for example, would I buy them for that price? Nope to rich for my blood plus the wife would kill me, but they are not in a whole lot of tanks cause if they were there would be people bragging about them or showing them off but you don't see it. So in a way they are rare in the hobby or trade thus the high price. I would hope nobody would buy them for that price as to prove a point in that they are to much and don't deserve the price being asked. That would be the way to change the trend by not buying these corals from eBay or retail shops. As they drop the price cause of the lack of sales then trader/sellers would also have to drop the prices. People that have been in the hobby know who to stay away from and who is a reputable person seller or trader. But at the same time if somebody wants something and treats himself to a extravagant purchase then why not.....It's his cash and he probably knows better. I think in the end we agree more then we disagree, when it comes to putting money on the table....I personally prefer to trade, saves cash for other things.

Can we all agree to keep the peace and allow everyone to state his or her opinion. I'm not taking sides, I just hope we can all make nice and discuss the issues at hand politely.

I would hope that nobody thinks I hold any hard feelings or mean anything personal especially RJ....I think we can debate with out it turning nasty....I would hope anyway.

I think we can also agree that giving out good advice gained from experience to those that don't have the knowledge or experience is also a good way to help stop the trend.

[KafudaFish]

Man oh man I love these types of threads. I think they are great because it informs people what they could be getting into as a hobby. But remember this: It is a hobby. Some people treat it as that and others treat it as a business. Both situations are acceptable. There is nothing about it that is essential to your life unlike food, water, and shelter.
Is there price gouging? Yes as with anything else in life you must make the decision what to spend your money on as you deem necessary and what brings enjoyment to your life. Enjoyment is defined differently by different people.
Think about this: Why does one zoa color morph bring more pleasure to you as a hobbist? The color? Because it is "rare"? Because of its "given name"? Cost?
Again this is different for different people. As my wife says they don't do anything and they really don't.
So are there any solutions to price gouging? Yes. As stated before do not buy a polyp that you deem price excessive. Other people will and may frag them out and over time price may drop.
Quit the hobby and collect potato chips that look like people.
Buy the cheaper ones only.
If you must have that $100 polyp get 4 reef friends to chip in and agree to frag to those people first then sell or trade to others.

[MUCHO REEF]

Azurel, my friend I hope you didn't think I was speaking to you directly. I was just making a general statment to all based on how I saw the thread headed down. Friends?

Based upon another thread that you are aware of, I just wanted to make sure that no one crosses the line. We can all agree to disagree and still be chummy at the end of the day.

Mucho Reef

[Azurel]

Nope I didn't think you were talking to me......I just saw it as you did and wanted to make the point that I wasn't going down that road either.......No worries m8...It's all good.

[ReefWifey]

Two things stick out in this thread to me:

1)If we're suposed to agree that it is good hobbyist form to 'out' the 'price gougers', then someone needs to come up with a list of what everything is 'worth' and maintain it. Because I sure don't know. If we're gonna put a red X on a seller in a public forum, I'd like to think there is some kind of factual formula being used. Any volenteers to create and maintain daily such a list?

2)I see people griping alot and 'making fun of' people who pay large prices for zoas. You say ask around, post, etc. Well, a lot of us are just starting out, we don't have the killer collection already for 'trade bait', and we haven't been here forever to have such good relationships with the 'high rollers'. Some of us don't have those things, but we DO have cash. If we have cash, and want something, and we buy it.....all of a sudden we're 'part of the problem'. Whatever. If I want Armageddons, and I haven't smoozed my way into the high roller network where people just throw them at me cuz I'm a zoa god or something.....and I have cash....I'm gonna buy them. Not all hobbyists are starving students, or strapped for cash. And not all of us throw money around irresponsibly to show off either. Some of us actually love the hobby, LOVE the zoas, and will pay for them. I don't know about you, but when I go out to buy a designer pair of shoes...the weight of the whole shoe economic market isn't on my shoulders.

I just don't see why there is all this squabbling about 'to pay or not to pay'. If something is worth it to you, buy it. If it's not, don't. I don't see why we need to advocate 'making fun of' each other. With that mentality, I'd make fun of folks without the money to spend.

It should be said also that not everyone who is dropping mad cash on zoas is trying to make mad cash back. Personally, I enjoying trading around, and share the wealth. I hook up friends where I can. Sometimes it all just goes back into the hobbyists anyway.

[BS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8007942#post8007942 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azurel
But to sit there and tell me you have the right to make fun of them in public is BS. ....

Hey Hey Hey..... leave me out of this OK :lol:

This is why I just trade ;)

[Azurel]

LOL.....Very funny:)

[TheBigOne]

I think as long as the coral frags are 100% purely captive, charge whatever you want for them.

It's the smash and grab that's problematic. People scouring LFS and online stores for the 'best deal" on a colony, chopping it up immediately to make back part of their loss. Sure, look forward to fragging it once it's healthy and thriving, but ripping off chunks that same week isn't "propagating".

[The Beaut]

Reefwifey,
Well said.

[The Beaut]

The last time I checked we live in a capitalistic country with free enterprise. Supply and demand is simple economics. If someone has the money to pay for something, anything, be it an old car or one zoa polyp it is their right and their right only to do so if they wish. I thought gouging is when we have a catastrophe and the stores start selling life necessities for ridiculous prices. I don't think anyone ever forced us to have reef aquariums. I also wish I had the money to buy these beautiful frags. I only buy what I can afford.

[MUCHO REEF]

Good point Reefwifey on # , but # 1 would be purely subjective if a group set out to set prices. I don't think anyone on earth can tell you what a zoa is worth, but I can tell you what it's not worth, and I will never say it in public and certainly not in private,. I wouldn't want to offend anyone who might be trying to secure top dollar for something. But if someone wants to pay $ 600 for a zoa colony, I say let them. It's their money. It's no different than a guy who pays top dollar for a car when the Blue Book price is half what he/she paid for it. "Let the buyer beware". Sure, retailers and wholesalers set their prices and profit margins, but they have to make a living and to stay in business. So we have to submit to their pricing points and that is what and how we have gauged value in the past. I hear people saying, “well it sold for $ 300 on Ebay�, that’s Ebay. You won’t find a LFS doing that, why, because they would never sell them. They have to rely on rapid turnover as often cash flow needs to remain constant.

Many many years ago when I sold my propagated corals on Ebay, I listed some items and placed my reserve, which I thought was fair for frags and colonies that were aquacultured in the best of long term stable parameters. I took great pride in growing what I grew. Then it happened, I placed a reserve of $ 80 on something, and it sold for well over $ 450. Now should I say, "oh, no my friend, that's too much, let me send you $ 370 back". No, it's call free enterprise. I didn't charge that much, but he saw fit to pay that amount because in his mind it was worth it, or, he wanted that particular piece that badly. It wasn't worth more than a hundred dollar, yet he paid several times more than its value. "One man's junk is another man's treasure" Conversely, the inverse is also true, "One man's treasure is another man's junk".

I see so many reefers calling this rare and that common. I don't consider anything rare anymore. If you know where, how, and when to look, you can find just about anything. I find stuff that I have never seen all the time. Everything in a LFS, on line on Ebay is worth what you’ll pay for it. I personally have my own formula and limits based upon certain elements, but that’s me. I went to a store earlier this year that I went to 30 days apart for 3 solid months. I wanted to see if anyone noticed what I saw in their tanks. I saw reefers come in and ask for this name and that catchy name, and not a single person ever noticed what was sitting in plane site. I couldn't believe what I saw, but there they were, 5 stunning colonies, not frags, but colonies just sitting there, for almost 3 months. I personally am not into names so I don't know what they are, but I found blue, purple, yellow and lime, watermelon and lime and a bloody red. If you can read the lights in the tanks, you can find just about anything. I only wish I hadn't deleted my database of every zoas and palys I have seen, photographed or had in my possession in the past 13 years. There were over 500 pictures of some of the craziest stuff you'll ever see. Many of which I haven't seen in years. What I’m saying is this, if you like it, buy it. If you don’t or if you do, yet someone else pays 10 times what it’s not worth or what you would have paid for it, they hey, let them. Doesn’t make them stupid, maybe uninformed, but I’m not going to pounce on them. Sorry I went off on a tangent.

If any group or duo of reefers sits here in judgement and try to place a monetary value on this zoa and that zoa, I can see all hell breaking loose over it.

Mucho Reef

[ReefWifey]

Mucho - That was the point I was hoping to make with #1, no one is going to do that because it can't be done. :)

[twon8]

an interesting parallel can be found in pure bred dogs- people pay sometimes 1000 or more for a documented dog, and if they breed them you can be sure they will be sold for as much as the market will allow;

we are the market, our common perceptions and desires drive these crazy prices, and this 3 page thread will only fuel the fire more; a self-fulfilling prophecy about the scarcity/value of zoas.

imo best way to remedy the situation is to educate the consumer, or a large scale aquaculture of some of the better types. but we are still very impulsive animals, and quite swayed to have things other people don't have. I'm guilty of it.

about 8 months ago at a lfs they had an aquacultured colony of red pe type zoas for $120; i thought that was ridiculous and said no way was i paying that. they turned out to be armor of gods, and two months ago the same lfs got another colony for me, and i gladly paid 130 for it. I would like to think the my colony had more polyps on it, but i can't be sure.

[surfnvb7]

ya know what would be interesting to see?

someone use some common sense and take advantage of these price increases. b/c the places that are getting all the business, are also the places that keep increasing prices, and have steadily had the most expensive prices on "rare" zoas more than any where else.

what do you think would happen, if someone were to create a new online store for "rare" zoas. but they decided to sell them at 50-75% less than these other places that sell lunar eclipse/xmen palys for almost $30? instead sell them $5/polyp or less, since you can buy entire colonies of these, pink elephants, "OPE's" from wholesalers for dirt cheap. (and if you have no idea what i'm talking about you obviously havent done your homework) why not pass on this savings to the consumer?

whoever went into this business, would make a killing from profit on sheer volume, not selling high in low volumes like the current places, and force these other places to either drop their prices, or go out of business.

i think all of us as hobbyists, need to be responsible and take a proactive approach into controlling our hobby. just use your head, if you pay a ton of money for something, and want to get your money back by selling it, you will most likely have to sell it for more if you plan on turning around and selling polyps in an acute manner, so you have to sell for more than you paid in order to make a profit, and so does the next person, so when you have to go back and buy more, you will be paying more than you sold them for eventually. its just gonna keep going up until people wake up.

[Reef Junkie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8013186#post8013186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
imo best way to remedy the situation is to educate the consumer, or a large scale aquaculture of some of the better types.

AMEN!:D

I think twon nailed it. It is surely a capitalist society we live in.
The market will bring what it can, but this forum (dedicated to zoanthid freaks) is about education.

Azurel, no offense taken at all. We're cool.;)

Now as far as outing, it is absolutely ok for one member to specifically ask the entire Zoanthid Forum if another person selling zoas in the Selling forum (or anywhere) is giving a good deal or not.

People can ask questions or make comments or even "out" the person without flaming them.

Plus, as far as "who's to say that what a polyp is worth?" Most of us know what a fair price is. It's like knowing the difference between right and wrong. You would have to be green to not know better. That's why if you are green, ask.

Also, I may have been on this board a while, but I know people here that have been here less then a year with nicer zoas then I have ever had and I have awesome friends and connections! The kicker, the new members got most of their zoas from trades and just plain asking nicely.

I'm having a hard time understanding why someone would want to protect a price gouger? Especially on a hobbyists site that is supposed to help members get around paying what Joe ignorant would pay.

We already know how addictive this hobby is, we can help our impulsive brethren not lose their homes or spouses. :rolleyes:

Al,
Awesome idea.
When you open, just make sure to have A LOT of stock. You'll be sold out on day one.;)

[Mr. Ugly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8013984#post8013984 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef Junkie
When you open, just make sure to have A LOT of stock. You'll be sold out on day one.;)
And you'll probably see most of your stuff on Ebay on day two :(

[Mr. Ugly]

And on day six, there'll be a ton of posts here from people asking, "Why are my new zoas melting?"

[Reef Junkie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8014769#post8014769 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
And you'll probably see most of your stuff on Ebay on day two :(

:lmao:

My god, sad but true.

[surfnvb7]

yeah, that is true. which is why i always say if you arent part of the solution, you are a part of the problem.

[Mr. Ugly]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8013359#post8013359 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by surfnvb7
whoever went into this business, would make a killing from profit on sheer volume, not selling high in low volumes like the current places, and force these other places to either drop their prices, or go out of business. We do see some vendors doing that with some of the more readily available nice zoas... Pinks, Eagle Eyes, Ring of Fire, etc. Harder to do that with something like true Safecrackers, true PPE, or Red Wines.

[Reefski's]

nobody has pictures of these fabulous things. i want to see what all the excitement is about.

[Blitz99]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8005638#post8005638 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheBigOne
[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8005366#post8005366 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Blitz99
with all that said, i just went and spent 120 bucks on 3 polyps of purple deaths....


i then sold two of them for 120 dollars...


not true at all, but thats what's going on. [/QUOTE

that coming from someone with under 50 posts. :bum:

i'm sorry, my post count here at RC means something about my experience or knowledge or ability to use sarcasm? i guess i should start frequenting this board instead of my local one so i can have some board cred when i feel like posting... wait, do i need to have over 50 posts to be sarcastic with you?

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8015981#post8015981 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Blitz99
i'm sorry, my post count here at RC means something about my experience or knowledge or ability to use sarcasm? i guess i should start frequenting this board instead of my local one so i can have some board cred when i feel like posting... wait, do i need to have over 50 posts to be sarcastic with you?

I believe 100 posts is when you're allowed to use sarcasm, 500 posts for critisism. Wooo, I'm almost there! :lol:

[gflat65]

Just wait til you hit 1000;). Almost no holds barred. You don't get puns until you hit 10,000...

[TheBigOne]

i guess your post count should go up by 1000 for buying 'rare pop coral'. no, wait, it doesnt make you a better, more experienced reefer, just someone with green paper and nothing else to do with it.

hows that for sarcasm? or was that borderline profanity removed? :D i get those confused.

[Reef Junkie]

I hear at 5000 you get the ability to place members in the grip of doubt!
Whoohoo!
:rolleyes:

[gflat65]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8016676#post8016676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef Junkie
I hear at 5000 you get the ability to place members in the grip of doubt!
Whoohoo!
:rolleyes:
Almost there ;). Gotta love the little landmarks.

[Blitz99]

at what post count do my palys actually start eating me?

[gflat65]

Depends on your definition of 'Eating';).

[Reef Junkie]

And at page 4 the thread is officially deemed derailed...

At 20k you get the title of post whore extrodinare!:fun1:

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8019697#post8019697 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef Junkie
And at page 4 the thread is officially deemed derailed...

At 20k you get the title of post whore extrodinare!:fun1:

i think this is entirely relevant to the topic, 'disturbing zoanthid trend'

Blitz99:"at what post count do my palys actually start eating me?"

[Reef Junkie]

OK, how about rerailed?
:lol:

[surfnvb7]

i dont know about anyone else, but i wanna know what i need to feed my zoas to get them to start pooping out $20 bills. :lol:

[Reef Junkie]

My guess, $20 bills.;)

[RevHtree]

Wow! I have missed alot while out of town and there are very valid points from most posters here. But after reading this last page I have forgotten any good points that I have read, and I just want to be a part of the fun so here is my worthless post! ;)

I wonder if my zoas would know the difference between real 20's and fake ones.....hmmm.....

[Reef Junkie]

Only a doctor or men who frequent unsavory establishments know the difference between real and fake ones.;)

[TheBigOne]

i have glow in the dark palys. i used the glo-fish jellyfish gene, injected it into the paly, and WALA! there's no waiting list because they are ALL MINE! muhahahaaa

[surfnvb7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8020641#post8020641 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TheBigOne
i have glow in the dark palys. i used the glo-fish jellyfish gene, injected it into the paly, and WALA! there's no waiting list because they are ALL MINE! muhahahaaa

ya know, scientists have already cloned the fire-fly luminescence gene into tobacco leaves.....why? i have no clue lol

they can also make different colors of wild cotton plants.

i guess there is no market value for a zoa that glows (other than hobbyists who have too much money) :lol:

[gflat65]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8020316#post8020316 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reef Junkie
Only a doctor or men who frequent unsavory establishments know the difference between real and fake ones.;)
An experienced 'eye' can help make the distinction:D.

[twon8]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8021359#post8021359 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by surfnvb7
ya know, scientists have already cloned the fire-fly luminescence gene into tobacco leaves.....why? i have no clue lol

they can also make different colors of wild cotton plants.

i guess there is no market value for a zoa that glows (other than hobbyists who have too much money) :lol:


cigarettes that light up themselves.

[DJ88©]

just popping in to say hi..

let's not go much further with the jabs than it already has..