No

[FishNutzBoi]

I had a mimic tang a month ago. It was eating fine (daily feeding of algae sheets, mysis, formula 1 pellets, brine shrimps). For some weird reason, it was getting really skinny and died after a month being in my tank. I got a powder brown tang 2 weeks ago. I daily feed it with algae sheets; garlic soaked mysis, formula 1 pellets, formula 2 flakes, formula 1 frozen. It eats just fine and its stomach seems full after every feeding. Unfortunately... I don't know WHY!?!?!?! It is getting really skinny, just like how my mimic tang was before it died. I only noticed its skinniness this afternoon. Please help! What's wrong with my tang? How can i help it?

TIA!

[nmprisons]

some thoughts, but i am no expert:

Your tank might be too small to really keep these fish happy. On the reef, they forage all day long on algae. In a 75 gallon tank there just may not be enough of the kind of stuff they need to eat in order to stay healthy available to them. I would suggest making sure that your tangs always have something to eat in the tank (nori may work here or leafy greens on a clip).

[petoonia]

I agree, if the tank is too small the tang may be really stressed. They usually like alot of space to swim in!

Good Luck!

[FishNutzBoi]

I keep algae sheets in my tank all day long. I feed twice daily - once w/ garlic soaked formula 1 and 2 then 4 hours later, i feed them w/ garlic soaked mysis and cycloopfreeze

[hopper]

What kind of temps are your tank kept at and have you checked your water parameters lately?

[Billybeau1]

Could be internal parasites. Try soaking all his food in garlic for a little while and see if he improves.

[FishNutzBoi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8005893#post8005893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hopper
What kind of temps are your tank kept at and have you checked your water parameters lately?

Gosh, i don't even know anymore :( My thermometer broke a few weeks ago. When i compare its display to my AC's, it's about 4F lower. It says my tank is in the range of 72 - 74 so i guess my tank's temp is around 76 - 78F. My corals, anemone, inverts and other fish are doing well so i doubt that it's a temp problem.

I garlic soak everything i feed except algae sheets and cycloopfreeze (side snack after main feedings). I'll try soaking the algae sheets in garlic to see if it helps

My first thought was parasites but im not so sure...

[FishNutzBoi]

I check para's once per 2 weeks or even more often. Last time i checked was last sunday:

NH3 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 17
PO4 - 0.03
PH - 8
SG - 1.026

[FishNutzBoi]

I just noticed that my longnose butterfly is very skinny too! OMG... He has a light red patch on his side and is breathing irregularly fast. He doesn't eat anything and is just swimming around for cover. My PBT is still eating somewhat. It's not hiding like my BF. They are both extremely skinny. 1 more thing about their appearance is that their gills are appeared to be red.

This is what i think my fish has:

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/compldiagnodisease/a/aa042801.htm

Help? :(

[Ciarán]

75G is too small for any tang and marginally adequate for a butterfly (IMHO its too little). The nitrates are way too high IMHO. A powder brown tang is one of the most difficult to keep healthy IME and you would do much better with a "hardier" tang that is slightly smaller. NB some from the genus Zebrasoma such as a Scopas or regular yellow tang.

[FishNutzBoi]

Ciaran... Thanks for the advice but... I'm not really asking for stocking advices... I need help treating my fish. Thanks

[hopper]

I agree with the 75 gal. being too small for the fish that you have. Have you been doing water changes on a regular basis? I'm thinking that your fish are stressed and the nitrates are too high as ciaran stated. Hard to pinpoint what it may be, but if you could post a pic of your fish that have this red streaking in the fish disease treatment forum, someone may be able to help you pinpoint the problem.

[hopper]

If you know anyone that has a QT tank, you may want to think about doing this also. We're not trying to give you stocking advice, it's just that we think this is part of the problem. If you lived in a house with a 4 ft. ceiling, you would get stressed also. Not bashing you, but trying to help you figure out what's wrong with your fish.

[scaryperson27]

"I'm not really asking for stocking advices... I need help treating my fish."

I would take it back to the store imediatly. Obviously your tank isn't big enough to have a powder brown tang and a butterfly fish. If your last one died then this one will probably do the same unless he gets the right treatment. Have you thought about getting something like a Red Sea Sailfin? Those are my favorite. I know you don't want to hear about stocking advise but your fish selection (brown tang, and a Butterfly fish) is not really suitable for the environment that they are in.

How much life is on your rock? Do you have any pics you can posts?

[FishNutzBoi]

Thanks for the replies

I've had the BF for almost 2 months w/o any problem. Most sites say that it requires a 80G tank. The PBT is actually one of the recommended tangs for 75G in the "reef fish" forum. Both of these fish are 2.5 inches long so I do not think they don't have enough space in my tank

Anyways, Im pretty sure that my fish have bacterial infection now. Weight loss + Red (bloody) patch on body + Red gills are what im seeing. If it is really bacterial infection. How can I treat it? Most sites that i've read say I have to QT and treat w/ antibiotic? Some sites say if the water conditions are good, the fish will recover on its own? Anyone w/ bacterial infection experience?

TIA

[FishNutzBoi]

O yea, i forgot. I do 10G WC every other week. The last WC was on last Sunday.

My LR+LS are 2 years old (being in the tank)

[Acronana06]

i would say your fish is probably doomed but if not take it back to the LFS quick 75 gallons is to small of a tank

[erc111]

"Have you thought about getting something like a Red Sea Sailfin? "

Everyone is beating up this guy for too much tang for his tank and then you suggest a tang that can reach 15 inches?

[FishNutzBoi]

Taking them back to the LFS is not an option nor it is a good idea! LFS will NOT take their fish back looking all sick and diseased. The tanks at the LFS are not even as big as mine and are WAY overcrowded so it's not even good for the fish either.

I'm really disappointed by these replies... You guys are not helping at all... How about we start talking about treatmeants please?

[hopper]

You probably will not get an answer until tomorrow, but I would go to the Seachem forum and ask for some advice there. You need to identify what your fish have first and I am sure you are going to need a pic. By describing what your fish's syptoms are, they may be able to recommend a product to treat them with. I would only treat them after you have identified the problem though. I don't have a clue as to what it could be. After identifing the problem, you need to find out what caused it, or else you will encounter it again. Again, pics would help tremendously.

[Salty Bginners]

You all are obviously doomed, your parents should trade you back to the hospital for a healthy baby, because the appartment you live in is too small to keep you in.


Now how do you feel. If you all arent going to offer helpful info, SHUT UP! I think he gets the gist that his tank is too small.

Now for some helpful Info. Go to the LFS, by a product called Binox and follow the directions, should clear it right up. :) (Now thats how to be helpful. You all should take notes.)

[dcombs44]

Many people have kept tangs successfully in much smaller than 75 g tanks. I had a yellow in a 29 g for over a year. I also had a sailfin for about 6 months. Both very healthy fish throughout the time they spent with me....I bought them both small and when they outgrew the tank I traded them in.

If the fish are eating like he said they were and remaining skinny, it seems to me that there is some type of parasite or infection. What the exact problem is, I'm not sure, and there are a hundred different treatments available. My advice, is whatever treatment you use, do it in a quarantine tank.

Everyone has an opinion on how big of a tank is big enough, or too small, but I have to say that for the size of these fish, that i don't think the tank size had anything to do with it. Sorry I can't be of much help, Best of luck

[scaryperson27]

I have a sailfin in my 65 tall which is why I advised him getting one. My friend has one in a 55 that has been 4" for the past 4 1/2 years and thrives. They only grow to the limit of there territory. There is no way you could get a sailfin tang to grow 15 inches in an average captive tank.

Yeah sorry for the advise on bringing him back to the store. I must have missed the red patches and infectious disease part of the topic. Do you have a quarantine tank you could get running in the mean time while you figure out what to do? Whatever supplements you might have to add might not be reef safe.

[scaryperson27]

I think there is a way to force feed fish. I read about it on some freshwater discuss site a while back, I wouldn't advise it but if it gets to the point of putting life support on the dang thing, you might as well.

I think what you do is take a syringe (like one you would use to feed a baby parrot) and stuff it down the fishs mouth injecting food into it's stomach. I think there is also a way to make it easy to digest but i forgot how to do so.

Click it (http://cgi.ebay.com/35cc-3-PK-O-RING-SYRINGE-BIRD-PARROT-TOY-PART-CRAFT_W0QQitemZ260019289661QQcmdZViewItem)

[reefinmike]

check its poo for worms, my yellow tang had the same thing going on.

[erc111]

I had a sailfin in a 55 about 20 yrs ago.

My sister got him for my birthday.
It was about 2 inches.
It grew very fast.

In 10-11 months, it was 5 inches. It was a beautiful fish and I liked it.

The worst part about it was that whenever I put my hand in the tank for any reason, it would try to whack me with his tang.

It got me once or twice and it hurt!

I didn't think it was going to get any smaller, only larger so...

It went to my LFS that put it in a 350G tank.

[gman0526]

If the fishes came from the same LFS (tangs) I would think that both had some kind of parasitical worms, garlic extract is a great dewormer so if you seem to have a problem with the BF I would reccomend feeding food soaked on garlic extract.

[petoonia]

Definately get a new thermometer. If your temp. is fluctuating alot that could be making things worse.

I would try upping your water changes as well. We only have a 65g and we do 20% weekly

Also you could try some different brands of food.
I hope everything works out for the best!!!!!
Good Luck!!!!!

[KDodds]

Hate to say it, but I'm with the other Ciaran (whose parents spelled his name right ;) ). You were asking for trouble going in, the tank was too small for either fish, and now you're getting just what you asked for. But, please, don't see that as being beat upon. It is definitely not my intention that it should be seen this way. It's a mistake that you made, and we ALL make mistakes, myself included, that can result in the death of fishes. The point is, put it behind you, but don't forget about it, and certainly don't repeat it. Learn from it.

As to what to do... I'm not sure that any fish that is wasting away even tho it's feeding is going to be "saveable". At the very least I would remove both fish to hospital. The symptoms would certainly suggest either some type of parasitic infection or a damaged digestive system. The first is fixable, maybe, but the second really isn't. You'd want to treat with an oral drug, for sure, not just one used to medicate water. What that would be, tho, I have no clue. Possibly a broad spectrum anti-biotic, but if it's a worm that might not do a lick of good. Same the other way, you might treat with a deworming agent, but if it's bacterial you'd probably not see any results. Do you have a vet that could examine a stool sample? If not, you might want to check in with Kelly on the MD forums, I believe she might be able to put you in contact with someone who can do so.

[Ciarán]

Both of these fish are 2.5 inches long so I do not think they don't have enough space in my tank

Thats basically a regurgitation of the 1" of fish per 5 gallon rubbish thats thrown around out there. I learned very early in this hobby that a fish that needs for example 250G. when fully grown, needs it at all times. I had a juvenile Regal Tang, about 1/2" in a 20G system on a temporary basis while readying a bigger system. It swam anxiously against the glass, contracted crypt within a month and took another fish with it. I added the rest of the fish to a hospital and had that horrible 6 week wait for the reef to go fallow while dosing copper in the hospital. My tank parameters were fine, it was eating well up to then and putting on weight - but, I didnt QT it and the stress of the small tank obviously reactivated an old residual crypt infection.

Now - treating the problem? I'd say try a pH and temperature adjusted FW bath with a solution of Methylene Blue added to it. Meth. blue has anti-bacterial and therapeutic properties for ridding parasites. Leave the fish in as long as they can stand it. Feed them well with garlic and vitamin enriched foods, notably spirulina and zoe etc. Move them to their own hospital tank, slowly lower the SG to about 1.019 - 1.020. This will allow for greater oxygen saturation as well as making life difficult for protozoans that may be afflicting your fish. Use huge filtration potential on the hospital - skimming, UV, carbon. Leave a Nori clip soaked in garlic in the tank at all times as a barometer to these herbivorous fishes' appetites. If none of this works, i would suggest a weak ambient dosage of copper within the hospital, coupled with the lowered SG to eliminate any SW invertebrate or fungal parasites. Maracyn may also be of use as an anti-bacterial agent. Another thing is, lower the temperature to about 24C, this will allow for greater oxygenation of the water. Aerate the surface with airstones rather than PHs as this will provide greater agitation as opposed to flow, which you do not want with sickened fish that are weak and less able to swim.

Ciaran

[FishNutzBoi]

Since you guys keep talking about it... May I ask, how big of a tank do you guys think a Powder Brown Tang or a Longnose Butterfly need?

I do research before I buy anything:

For Longnose BF
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=350
http://marinedepotlive.com/yellow-longnose-butterfly---forcipiger-flavissimus-fish--butterflys.html
http://www.marinecenter.com/fish/butterflyfish/yellowlongnosebutterfly/
http://fantasyreef.com/database/index.php?p=getitem&db_id=7&item_id=37

For PBrownT - Right in RC
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=739380

Not to be a hardheaded person but I just think it is ridiculous how you guys can keep saying that swimming space is the issue here.

Anyway, bad news :/ My BF didn't make it. I found its dead body when I came home today. Whatever disease my fish have... it's very deadly IMO. My BF was feeding fine just 2 days ago. There was no sign of it getting skinny or anything til yesterday afternoon. It stopped feeding + had red streak + heavy breathing + red gills yesterday and BAM... dead by the next day.

My PBT is still eating like a pig - nori, cycloopfreeze, formula 1 + 2, mysis. I garlic soak "everything" i feed to the fish. I started feeding 3 - 4 small meals/day today to see if that helps. It's still looking very skinny. Alittle less skinnier than yesterday (i think) but still in bad shape. I'll definitely get a new thermometer this weekend along w/ a 10G WC. I really want to get a QT (i always have) but for various personal reasons, I can't.

Thanks alot for the suggestions

[KDodds]

You're focusing on the wrong aspect of it. It's not a matter of x gallons or y length keeps a fish healthy. All of the size in the world ins't going to do that if it's pporly maintained. I'm not saying that's the case here, of course. What I am saying is that when you start to cut corners in any area, especially with somewhat delicate species, you start asking for problems. Which, IMO, is exactly what you are doing and what you continue to do. I'm not the Tang Police, not by any means, but I disagree with Scott Michael's assesment that any Acanthurus species is suitable for any tank under 6' in length. Again, my opinion, and it's my opinion that the stress related to this crowding may be a contributing factor in your fishes' inability to recover from whatever it is they're suffering from. Whether or not you choose to accept that as truth is up to you, of course. However, I have been successfully maintaining "difficult" species for years, and can honestly say that, besides MIs, none of them were really all that "difficult", IMO. And, with the MIs, it seems to me at this point to be more a matter of initial stock than anything. The PBrownT is one of those fish that is generally regarded as being "difficult", along with the LNBs and CBB.

A partial list of the "difficult" species I am currently maintaining:
Apolemichthys trimaculatus
Pomacanthus navarchus
Labroides dimidiatus
Zanclus cornutus (5 months and 1 month)
Chaetodon semilarvatus
Chaetodon collare
Acanthurus leucosternon

[REV]

Quoted from KDodds
"A partial list of the "difficult" species I am currently maintaining:
Apolemichthys trimaculatus
Pomacanthus navarchus
Labroides dimidiatus
Zanclus cornutus (5 months and 1 month)
Chaetodon semilarvatus
Chaetodon collare
Acanthurus leucosternon"

Show-off! Not because you are keeping them, but because you used all of those Latin names.

[jay24k]

I think your parameters are fine. Nitrates are completely acceptable. Perhaps in a SPS dominated tank, they might be high but in a fish only tank 17 is nowhere near bad.

I think you will be ok with a tang in your tank but you need to plan to upgrade when needed or give the fish to someone who can take care of it.

Fish do not grow to the size of their enviroment. They will outgrow a tank. That is a wives tale. There was a guy on here named Rjwilson or something like that. His hippo grew very big in his 55 gallon and he upgraded it because of it.

I think you have a bacterial problem. Sometimes it could be internal parasites as well and I believe there is a product that supposebly helps. Also adding epsom salts can help the fish as well.

If your fish are all dead, I'd leave the tank fishless for 4 weeks or buy your fish elsewhere. To me it sounds like it might be your LFS and not your tank.

Good luck with it and hope all goes well. The less you argue with the people who rag on people, the faster they go away. Many are new who just spit out information they recently hear and have no experience at all with specific fish or tank sizes.

[FishNutzBoi]

jay24k, thanks for the kind comments. Yes I do plan to upgrade in the near future.

All my other fish are doing fine - no sign of sickness, eating/breathing normally. I "think" my PBT has a chance. It is still eating, which my BF refused to. I'll keep you guys updated.

[KDodds]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8014868#post8014868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REV
Quoted from KDodds
"A partial list of the "difficult" species I am currently maintaining:
Apolemichthys trimaculatus
Pomacanthus navarchus
Labroides dimidiatus
Zanclus cornutus (5 months and 1 month)
Chaetodon semilarvatus
Chaetodon collare
Acanthurus leucosternon"

Show-off! Not because you are keeping them, but because you used all of those Latin names.

:lol:
Flagfin or Trimac Angel
Majestic Angel
Cleaner Wrasse
Moorish Idol
Golden or Semilarvatus Butterflyfish
Pakistani or Collare Butterflyfish
Poweder Blue Tang

Better? ;)

With almost 3 decades in the hobby that, of course, extends back into the days of corner filters packed with floss and carbon and powered by airstones as THE accepted method for smaller tanks and UGFs as cutting edge technology, I'd hardly consider myself "new" or "inexperienced". You don't have to drive a Ferrari to know that it's fast. Similarly, you don't have to put a specific species into a specific tank size to predict that there will most likely be problems.

[millstreetzoo]

These type of threads are exactly what keeps people from asking for help. No one wants to be beat up when they really need help. The issue at hand is not how they got here, or how they could have prevented it - it's to late for that. The issue at hand here is can the fish be saved or not and how.

[xtm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8005963#post8005963 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FishNutzBoi
I check para's once per 2 weeks or even more often. Last time i checked was last sunday:

NH3 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 17
PO4 - 0.03
PH - 8
SG - 1.026

I see about 3 problems here... well maybe two. The SG, you can get away with.. but I'd go a little on the 1.024-25 side. Second, your Nitrate is a bit too high. And Third- your pH can't be just "8".

What exactly is your pH? These kinds of fish don't tolerate extreme pH swings (unless they're damsels) A pH swing of +/-1.00 in 1 day is too much since pH is calculated on a logarithmic scale.

So my suggestion is to monitor your pH closely... avoid dosing anything unless you're testing for it... let's start with that.


good luck

[Ciarán]

I wasnt "beating" anyone up about anything. I shared my experience with finicky species to highlight my past error and hence my viewpoint is derived from that learning experience. People here dont have anything to be concerned about other than the welfare of aquatic life. Its nothing strictly personal. Plus i believe i gave plenty of suggestions above on what can be done. Sorry to hear bout the BF, always tough losing a fish.

[FishNutzBoi]

My PH is 8 when light is on. I havn't been dosing anything into the tank for more than a month (used to dose Strontium, Ca, Iodine when I did less frequent WC's). I'll test para's today when light comes on.

Update on PBT - He did got less skinnier than the first day when the disease first came to sight. He's eating, but is ignoring some specific foods (formula 1 pellets, mysis).

I did a 10G WC yesterday. Let's see if it helps

[scaryperson27]

Glad to hear that. hope everything turns out alright for him :)