Raising pH?

[Raibaru]

Hey guys,
I'm trying to raise my pH to the 8.2 range in preperation for my live rock this weekend. However, it has been stuck at 7.8 for 24hours now and I can't seem to raise it. I turned on the venturi valves on both of my power heads but it hasn't improved anything. Will the pH rise on its own once the live rocks go in and the nitrogen cycle starts?

I also have a question about salinity. I've got it at the 1.024 range pretty stable now. Should I consider adding a little more salt to get it closer to the 1.025-1.026 just to have a small buffer zone? Or will everything be ok?

[sir_dudeguy]

do you have anything covering the tank? like a glass lid or a plastic lid? if so, try removing those, because they dont allow for proper gas exchange. Then you need to get good surface agitation...point a powerhead towards the top and make it pretty turbulent.

the cycle wont have anything to do w/the pH i dont think, but i do think i heard where live rock can raise pH a little. Everyone says that stuff like aragonite sand will raise your pH too...however i disagree..to a point. It says on the bags that it wont start "dissolving" untill the pH is below like 7.6 or something...So Unless you pH is below that, aragonite wont do anything (but its still the way to go imo).

One more thing...what salt are you using? I used oceanic and it was always at 7.7 I did a couple of those things i meantioned above, and those brought it up to about 7.9 but then i switched to Instant ocean salt (i was using oceanic at the time) and it brought it up to 8.2

For your salt level....1.024 is fine...but i like 1.025 and 6 better. I try to keep mine at 1.026. Some will disagree and say thats too high because when water evaps, it leaves salt behind which will make it a higher consentration in the water thats left...so that raises your sg. Yes its true, but how hard is it to add a gallon or 2 of water when needed? Just dont let the water level drop like 4 inches over 2 weeks lol :)

[Raibaru]

Yea, I removed the tank cover days ago because I am using a canopy light. And the air heads are creating quite a bit of surface agitation. I am also planning to use a sand bed about 1-3" deep.

As for the salt I'm using, I am using Crystal Sea Marine Mix. It is what my tank came with when I bought it at the LFS. I do intend to buy instant ocean when this is out though for my primary salt mix.

But Im in the same boat as you. I was at about the 7.7 range and now that I've turned on the venturi things, pointed them at the surface and such I'm sitting at the 7.8-7.9 range.

Is it ok to change salt brands and such for water changes? I'd hate to think I need to dump out 36g of water and start over.

[sir_dudeguy]

I'd close those venturi's up. Ya it might help w/the pH, however all the bubbles from that are gonna cause a ton of salt creep.

And yes you can change the salt any time. Just make sure you mix it to the same levels/temps as what is in the tank.

Is that canopy open at all? (like on the sides/back?) if not, then imo its still probably doing the same thing as a glass top, but not as extreme.

One more thing you can do is this...get a glass of your tank water, set it outside w/a bubbler in it and let it sit for a few hours (i'm not sure how long, so make it like 8 hours??) then test it after about 8 hours...if its higher than what your tank is...you've got a co2 problem in the room the tank is in (or you're putting co2 directly into the tank i guess)

One more thing...whats your alk at?

[Raibaru]

Sorry, I thought a canopy light were the type that sit about 6" above the water surface? I'm using a 30" Orbit with 2x 65w PC.

But that is it, the whole surface is open with only the lightt resting on stands about 6" above the water surface.

I'm about to turn off the venturi since they don't seem to be helping much of anything. By bubbler, do you mean an airstone?

And for alkalinity, I dont have an alkalinity tester. All I have is pH, salinity, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Guess I will swing by petsmart and pick up an alkalinity test.

[Raibaru]

Actually, doesn't the pH test show alkalinity?

[sir_dudeguy]

oh so your light is just on legs? I thought you meant that you have a canopy (the wooden box on top of the tank). So its just open top right now?

By bubbler..ya just any little airstone if you've got one. Just throw one of those in there and let it run for a while outside and test it later.

Alk and pH are different. Alk can affect pH, but i cant ever remember which way it goes...i dont know if its when alk goes up that pH goes down, or when alk goes down, pH does too... i dont know lol.

But you can just take some water to the lfs and get it tested for alk too. But it is nice to have your own alk kit...just get the salifert, or the aquarium pharmeceuticals seems to be pretty acurate for me compaired to my saliferts, so i just use those when my saliferts are gone.

[Raibaru]

yea, sorry. I thought the canopy was the type that were raised from the aquarium. But yea, the entire tank top is open.

I'll go to the LFS tonight after dinner and see if I can find an alkalinity test kit.

What about those pH kits that raise the water to set amounts? Any experience with those? I saw at PetSmart they had them, but the place was a mad house with everyone bringing their dogs and cats I just wanted to run for my life.

[sir_dudeguy]

well theres buffers, and then theres something called "PH UP" thats just a liquid...but that one sucks from what i can tell...didnt do anything for me, and i dont like adding stuff in the tank.

But the buffers you have to keep dosing i think, and the're kinda expensive if you have to. So if you can get by w/just getting everything how it should be then you'll save a little bit of money. If nothing works, then i guess you're gonna have to use the buffers, but like i said...i'm pretty sure you have to keep dosing it like once a week or something, but i cant remembmer.

[bertoni]

We'd need to have an alkalinity test result to help much. You'll want to find a regular calcium-alkalinity supplementation scheme. B-Ionic or an equivalent product is a good way to get started, in my experience.

If the alkalinity level is okay, the problem is probably excessive indoor CO2.

[marcsmith73]

Bakeing powder. ....2 tbs add to a gallon of Rodi water, and add slowly over one hours time.

[bertoni]

Baking powder should not be used in a tank. Baking soda can be used to supplement alkalinity, but it shouldn't be dosed without an alkalinity test result, in my opinion.

[Raibaru]

Alright, the LFS has a Nutrafin Carbonate and General Hardness Test kit that tests for Alkanlinity. I did the KH test and I ended up getting between 130 and 140 mg/L (13 to 14 drops). According to the char, that is unusually high and I need to consult an aquarium care specialist.

so what now?

[sir_dudeguy]

According to the char, that is unusually high

but it shouldn't be dosed without an alkalinity test result

So the baking soda can raise the alk? If so, good call bertoni :) That would have sucked if you added the baking soda to raise alk if its already high. I dont know how those tests work (or how acurate those ones are) but if that really is what it is, then thats good to know. I personally dont know exactly how to lower it or how it affects the pH, but i know it does, and i'm sure someone here will be able to help you for sure.

[Raibaru]

yea, alkalinity is high, but pH is low. Shouldn't low pH be due to low Alkalinity?

Also noticed my salinity is now 1.027 after a full 24hr since my last addition so that may be throwing my alkalinity results off a but since I added to much salt and need to do some more work.

So what would you guys suggest? I've had suggestions ranging from dumping out all the water and making sure I use instant ocean this time instead of the LFS recommended Crystal Sea Marine Mix to being told the live rock would elevate the pH as the nitrogen cycle starts to take place and the pH will always fluxuate in a tank without a sump running on a reverse clock anyway.

So once I get the salinity down to 1.025 or there abouts think it is safe to add live rock and make sure to use instant ocean for my partial water changes as it cycles? Or should I just dump it all and start over and look to get the rock next weekend?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

[sir_dudeguy]

Shouldn't low pH be due to low Alkalinity?

It might be..but i'm pretty dang sure i read somewhere that its the other way around..when alk is high, pH drops. could be wrong tho.

But i see no need to dump out all that water (36 gallons did you say??) That'd just be a waste imo. I've never used crystal sea, but i'm sure that you can just work with it. And also IO has low calcium levels, so you would need to get your calcium from other forms...on the other hand, Oceanic is known to have rather high calcium levels, so many people do a 50/50 ratio of IO to Oceanic w/great succes. They get good levels that way.

As for pH rising when the cycle starts...i dont really believe that..at least not till someone says otherwise. I've never heard that before, but i have heard that just putting the rock in might buff it up. I never tested mine to see if it really made any difference tho, so i dont know if its true..but that would make more sense to me.

IMO your rock will be fine in that salt level. Its a little high compaired to what people run their tanks at...but thats not really that big of a gap. I've tested the water in a few places out in the ocean and the lowest i found was 1.025. But then someone also told me that where we get most of our aquarium animals the sg is around that, which would make sense.

Just get a gallon bucket/jug/whatever and take out a gallon of water or 2. Then add freshwater to get it back to full. That will lower your sg. 2 gallons might do the trick, but if not...just try it again.

But i really dont see any reason at all to start over from scratch. What you've got isnt too bad besides the pH, which even that...i've seen much worse.

Did you ever set some water in a glass outside and test it after aerating it for a while?

[ZoeReef]

Just for the record, there is a big difference between baking SODA and baking POWDER.

"I prefer to use baked baking soda rather than washing soda in this recipe as baking soda from a grocery store is always food grade, while washing soda may not have the same purity requirements. Arm & Hammer brand is a fine choice. Be sure to NOT use baking powder." from Randy Holmes-Farley

[Raibaru]

No, I didnt try puting a side cup set up :(

I went out today specifically to get a airstone and such and got so sidetracked I forgot all about it.

[sir_dudeguy]

lol ya i wouldnt pay for a whole new bubbler probably (unless you've already got one and just needed the stone? if so, just run the airline in there w/no stone..that will be fine) But its just a nifty trick that will let you know if you've got a co2 problem.

zoereef...so the baking soda is sposed to raise alk right? Someone said that it "supplements" alk...so i took it that its sposed to raise it?

[drummereef]

Get your DKH up to around 9-11, then open the windows in your house to let some fresh air in. Probably a CO2 buildup causing your pH to be on the low side.

[mg426]

Earlier in the thread you mentioned that your alk was 140 PPM.This reading converts to 8.0 DKH. That is toward the lower end of what you actually want your alk to be at (7 to 11dkh)
I had the same problem with a Hagen test kit a couple yrs ago. Threw me for a loop. I dont know why they say consult an aquarium specialist. If you can confirm your alk reading with a Good quality kit (Salifert) you would IMO have much better info to guide you. Using PH buffers is a bad idea. they say add this amount each day untill you reach 8.3 or 3. If you do this you can drive your alk off the chart. I would confirm my alk to be in the proper range first. if your PH is still low take a glass of water outside aerate it Like Dude said them measure the PH of the glass. if it is in fact higher Co2 is the problem.

[Raibaru]

Yea, I'll probably call around a bit tomarrow to see if I can find a Salifer Alkalinity and Calcium kit in hopes to get a better grasp of what's going on.

I will also leave the windows to my room open for a couple hours to see if the CO2 buildup you mentioned is a problem also. Is something like that fixable? I dont know how co2 would build up and what not.

Anything else I should do while I'm out? Maybe have the guys at the LFS test a sample of my water too? Look into getting the air stone and pump? Really hope to get live rock by this weekend, but if I can't then so be it.

[markandkristen]

thats awesome. get the salifert and go frm thier. mine stays on the low side around 8.0.
i would concentrate on kh ca and mg. but that just me

[sir_dudeguy]

Whats your pH at now? wasnt it like 7.8 or 9? if so, imo you can get the live rock. Nothings gonna happen to it. I had mine in and the pH was low and its still very live.

[Raibaru]

Hovers on the 7.7 to 7.8 line really. Temp seems stable at 80 but I want to leave my lights on for a good 6 hours to see if that affects anything at all. Doubt it will, but just going to make sure. Rock will hopefully go in tomarrow or monday (assuming shops open monday).

[bertoni]

Both the alkalinity and pH results might be worth double-checking. Low pH with normal alkalinity usually means high indoor CO2. This article describes an aeration test that might be useful:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

[mg426]

If you find a good test kit thats great, Verify your levels then go from there. If you are planning on running a reef you are going to need some type of ca/alk additive. I would suggest to verify your levels Then correct any out of whack conditions that you may have. this will get your levels to where they need to be. Use the reef calculator ( a nifty online tool that will guide you in dosing your system) It has just about every kind of Ca/alk additive and how much you need to add built in to it. Once your levels are in the proper range use a good two part additive to maintain them.
the chemistry forum is avery handy place to have a real Expert address your concerns. Randy Holmes farely and Jonathan Bertoni along with the other moderators can answer any tank chemistry problems in as much detail as you need. Its agreat tool and you can only beneifit from there knowledge. Lord knows I certainly have best of luck to you.

[unimike]

hmm...does the crushed corals have any effects in pH buffering ?

[sir_dudeguy]

its prolly just the same as aragonite...so i'd say no. it will most likely only disolve into the water when the water is below say 7.6 or something

[bertoni]

Crushed coral is aragonite, and won't be useful as a buffer. It dissolves at too low a pH to be helpful.

[Raibaru]

Alright, did a check with my Salifert alk test kit and I had .37 which falls between the 9.9 and 10.2 range for dKH and between the 3.54 and 3.66 for mEq/L.

What does all this mean in english?

[sir_dudeguy]

lol i'd also like to know...so free bump for you ;)

[mg426]

It means that your alk is AOK. Just about smack in the middle of the acceptable range. Is your Ph still low ?? If so try the aeration test and you will have some good info that will go a long way to getting your tank squared away.

[Raibaru]

yea, pH is still low and I had the window open all day and stuck with the venturi running full power over the air stone idea. pH still didn't move. I've been told a few times now by various chatrooms and 2 different LFS that the pH will rise with the live rock and I shouldn't worry about buffers just yet.

btw, what is the acceptable range for Alk? for future reference

[mg426]

The acceptable range for ALK is 7 to 11 dkh. I would get in the habit of figuring out my CA/ALK balance before any livestock goes in the tank. You are going to have to do it anyway. It will take a bit of trial and error. Better to have it In balance before anything goes in.

[bertoni]

The pH test kit might be bad, or if the tank is very new, there might be some decay occuring. Either could lead to a low pH indication.