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Dakafall
09/04/2006, 03:36 PM
That can't be right, about halfway down the page they're askin' $600 for a single polyp, i'm thinkin' that's gotta be a typo, those zoas aint even that nice

http://www.reefenvy.com/Zoanthids.html

majestic sea life
09/04/2006, 04:36 PM
nope thats what ppl try to get for them. And yea i wouldnt pay more than 10$ a poly for them. They are kinda ugly. Hell when i got my PPEs i only paid 25 for 4 of them lol.

Chelsey
09/04/2006, 05:44 PM
Unfortunately majestic sea life is correct...that is the going rate. I'd like to think that if things grew faster or maybe people let their colonies grow out before fragging (could contribute to faster growth because of less stress?) prices would drop. However, since our society is powered by the almighty dollar I think that my theory is just a pipedream :(

ViPeR_930
09/04/2006, 07:13 PM
When he says, "Growth is eternalm," that isn't sarcasm. That really means there's 0 growth. It's all about supply and demand. I don't understand why someone would want to pay $600 for zoos that don't grow though.

smp
09/04/2006, 07:13 PM
You'd think they could afford a nicer website charging prices like that.

czieler
09/04/2006, 07:54 PM
Yeah...the site isn't all that great looking... although maybe they can't afford it cuz their prices are so high..they aren't selling anything..heh.

greystreet41
09/04/2006, 08:07 PM
there is a thread somewhere here where someone bought a few polyps from them I do believe...disposable funds I suppose. To each their own.

n2prelude03
09/04/2006, 09:16 PM
i will definately take it after i cash in my lottery ticket.

fantastic4
09/04/2006, 11:30 PM
So it's the color that no one has? Orange and Wine?

jay24k
09/04/2006, 11:32 PM
It's just one of those people who can list it for whatever they want. There is always one sucker who will buy it. Obviously he isn't selling many of them as I haven't seen it go. No more till Jan 2008 seems more of a marketing step imo. In one year you should at least have quite a few of them.

Personally I just laugh at it. All it does for me is not order from a place like that. I just can't support a business that overcharges on stuff like that. JMO

twon8
09/05/2006, 07:36 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8080156#post8080156 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jay24k

Personally I just laugh at it. All it does for me is not order from a place like that. I just can't support a business that overcharges on stuff like that. JMO

agree completely, he will never get any of my business. had he kept it at 100 per i might give him some leeway, but at 600 i just laugh.

jmkins
09/05/2006, 06:04 PM
[i]All it does for me is not order from a place like that. I just can't support a business that overcharges on stuff like that. JMO [/B]

I'll third that.

What I think is so kind of ridiculous is that they are right below the bam bam oranges which are going for $5/polyp, still a bit much but at least reasonable. The two dont really differ that much aside from the green mouth, and apparently growth rate. So for $600 you can buy one polyp of the envy orange PPEs or 120 of the bam bams. Or of course you could get like 80-100 frags through vendors offering frag packs or fellow reefers and then have a full tank with some very nice zoa's.

Versus
09/05/2006, 07:28 PM
heh , im going to buy a 850g tank .. and just buy that single polyp and put it in the middle .

Even better , win the lotto .. Then get a zoa eating nudi and video tape it eating it just to aggrivate people .




The main thing is , it could color morph eventually ( could just be a rpe that "faded" funny ) ..


so in a year and a couple months another polyp will grow? Im sure he knows in a year they will be like 45 a polyp . People like that disgust me , even worse the people who buy it.

atvdave
09/05/2006, 07:35 PM
Even at $45 a polyp your a idiot, IMO.

johnanddawn
09/05/2006, 07:50 PM
i like the fact that the pic shows three polyps and they are selling two of them - cool - so i see how its done now - buy a three polyp frag cut two off and sell them individually - vacation in figi - gotta love capitalism

jmkins
09/05/2006, 08:20 PM
Better yet. The first frag of this got sold in the "tank raised corals" section on here.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8080045#post8080045

Even managed to make a quick $50 turn around.

And here is a link to a thread in the reef discussion forum in case anyone missed it.

http://http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=922253 (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=922253)

A prime example of someone new to the hobby and trying to figure out whats so special with these polyps.

Actually, I've been in the hobby for awhile now and I'm still trying to learn what is so special with these particular polyps as well. Maybe they'll do my laundry, or upgrade my tank from a 40 to a fully equipped 120.

jay24k
09/05/2006, 08:34 PM
He made 50 but not technically. He either grew another polyp or didn't.

To me, this is the same as the PHE's which were HEAVILY photoshopped. A guy on here bought some and said the only way they looked like what was in the picture was under pure actinic. That was an illegal colony obtained though.

ApexPredator
09/06/2006, 07:52 AM
Hey guys I am going to stick my neck out for JC since I have known him for years and he is a great guy. I have seen his tanks personally as I am always going to his house to get frags and I can tell you that the growth on those envy orange ppe's is non-existent, in fact I don't think that he has had any growth at all other than the polyps sticking to the rock. I know he has tried various techniques to get them to grow but they just will not spread and mind you he has had them for some time now (probably 4 + years). Also let me assure you that these things are as orange as can be and are not the faded rpe's that people are trying to pass off as the envy oranges. The envy oranges are by far the nicest people eater polyps that I have ever seen and completely blow the original PPE's out of the water, I know this because JC has almost all of the different people eaters out there and even some that I bet most of you have never seen before. As for the web site I don't think it has been updated much since this isn't really JC's main business just a way to make a little extra cash to support this expensive hobby and he is normally very busy with work and such which leaves him little time to work on the website.

stevemc
09/06/2006, 09:59 AM
The guy that was selling the 2 polyps of Envy orange for 650 and 2 polyps of Wine for 100, said he was selling because he was getting out of the hobby..... No wonder! If I paid $700 for 2 or 4 polyps, I never would have stated this hobby. Thats crazy!

JCURRY@WESKETCH
09/06/2006, 05:56 PM
"...this isn't really JC's main business just a way to make a little extra cash to support this expensive hobby...."

Ironic isn't it?

gflat65
09/06/2006, 06:10 PM
So, just a question on the relativity that is usually overlooked. Should I read from this that no one here has ever bought baseball cards, comic books, rounds of golf, sports cars, or other collectibles or hobby related items that others thought were way over priced? I think if anyone looks at their own purchases, they'll find that they fit the descriptions and names they are calling others. I agree the price is awfully high on Envy Orange and can't justify the cost myself (or I'd have had some a few years ago when they were only $50-100 per polyp), but before people start calling names, they should really look at their own lives... As we all have the ability to defecate, I guess the saying stands that we should all be entitled to our opinions, but name calling really shows maturity. If someone were being ripped off by misrepresentation, that is one thing, but that is not the case here. Does anyone out there know anyone that actually has Envy Oranges (and I'm not talking the true RPE's that turn Orange under lower K lighting, I'm talking actual Envy Oranges)? If so, do they get any growth? All accounts I've heard on them is that there is almost no growth at all, over a years time... I know the price is high, but if I want a Porsche over a Pinto, no one has any place to tell me I'm an idiot because I got something I wanted...

ct_vol
09/06/2006, 06:41 PM
Let'em have it Gary... :D lol I agree... Its all about supply and demand... If you think the price is over your head, don't pay it... If you think its worth that price and you want it badly enough you'll pay it... Can't hate on someone willing to give the price you're unwilling to...

jay24k
09/06/2006, 06:58 PM
Nice guy or not, you cannot say 600 a polyp is not bending someone over. I have some corals that I'm sure people do not have but I don't try to rip someone off by charging extreme amounts. Just my opinion though.

kevxross
09/06/2006, 08:30 PM
Allow me to just point out...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8092289#post8092289 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
I agree the price is awfully high on Envy Orange and can't justify the cost myself (or I'd have had some a few years ago when they were only $50-100 per polyp), [/B]

Yet JC's friend said "I can tell you that the growth on those envy orange ppe's is non-existent, in fact I don't think that he has had any growth at all other than the polyps sticking to the rock. I know he has tried various techniques to get them to grow but they just will not spread and mind you he has had them for some time now (probably 4 + years)."

So he's had the same few polyps for 4 years with no growth. He tried to sell the polyps a few years ago for $50-100 per polyp. Now he's recently jacked the price up to $600 per polyp.

Brilliant marketing strategy, I must say, since everyone in the online reefing community has heard of "Envy Orange" now, but I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that JC isn't trying to rip people off with this laughable price.

With that said, whoever is foolish enough to pay that price for this rather boring and nongrowing (yeah it makes it rare, but how is a nongrowing coral a good thing?) coral deserves to lose that cash. I just don't think JC deserves to receive that cash. Whatever though, I'm not involved either way, unless I get to personally point and laugh at whoever buys it (which I'd love to do).

grisha
09/06/2006, 08:54 PM
lol . how long a single zoanthid polyp lives?

Bebo77
09/06/2006, 09:06 PM
lol again Zoa prices area crazy...

Elite
09/07/2006, 12:45 AM
Xenia don't grow in my tank either .. It must be the ultra rare kind.. Anybody want some Elite's Xenia?? Very limited frags available :D

gflat65
09/07/2006, 06:18 AM
I don't know JC, but I would bet he got a colony several years ago and broke it up then only to find it doesn't grow from there. I'm not trying to justify the cost, just trying to get others to see that maybe they should look inward before speaking out. Sarcasm is certainly something this hobby can't seem to live without, especially in some circles, eh?

The Beaut
09/07/2006, 09:12 AM
These threads are so ridiculous. No one is forcing anyone to pay $600 a polyp. If you want it and you have the money, buy it. It is what it is. We live in this so called capitalistic country that everyone complains about when things are not in there favor. It is simple supply and demand. Just like rare cars. If you cant afford something you don't buy it, don't get mad at someone who can. I look at these so called LE corals all the time and wish I could buy them, unfortunately I cant. But I am happy for those who can.

jay24k
09/07/2006, 12:03 PM
Whether you can afford it or not, the price is pretty rediculous. It's one of those, I have nothing to lose if I don't. I could care less if someone buys it or not but stuff like this puts me off on ever buying from them. It's like a dealership selling a honda civic for 30K. Sure some sucker might buy it but overcharging for stuff like that makes me think..."what else is this person gonna rip me off on".

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 08:22 AM
Hey everyone,

Honestly, I was not going to reply to this thread, I've seen a few here and there. But I decided to after all.

I have explained in the past the deal with the 'Envy Oranges' There have been threads about why they are so expensive, people have posted in the past that they do not grow.

I agree with those who say to each their own, i'm not telling anyone to buy 'Envy Oranges', in fact for a long time, I stoped selling them. And I continued to recieve e-mails and e-mails about them, since I am apparently the only one that has this paly morph.
The demand for this paly in very high, I don't understand why reefers get worked up about it. There are plent of corals out there that are in high demand that go for high prices aswell. The famouse $800 pink Acanthastrea, Purple monster, Watermelon Echino, Pink lemonaid acro and many more.

With a coral as pretty as the watermelon echino, why would anyone want to frag theirs?? Thats why these uncommon corals carry with them the high tag. I would rather keep and enjoy my small Envy orange colony, than make it smaller for a couple bucks. Yet, collectors out there still want to own this paly. And if I kept it all to myself, then I would be An A-hole for hogging the morph. For a while I sold them at $50 per polyp, and many had the opportunity to get them.


The truth is I am not trying to make a quick buck, I wish I had tons of these to keep them at a lower price. There is more money in selling common crappy zoo's than the high end zoo's and this goes for all corals. Not in a morph that does not grow, and will sell once in a while.

Look at prices on coins stamps and other collectibles; who would pay $1,000's of dollars for a little stamp or dull coin. Guys this is not a common morph and therefor like rare coins and stamps the demand is too high, which leads to the price.

For all those that complaing about the price on this morph, I can tell many of you are complaing just to flame and might not even like Zoanthids. But for those of you that CAN appreciate a rarity but can not afford it, The bam bam Oranges have a similar color and are just as nice and only a few dolars per polyp, Buy it from me or not.

But for the collectors, "A regular 1999 coin is not the same as an 1800 silver dollar." I could never pay Hundreds of thousands of dollars for a high end car, but there are people who enjoy these cars and for them it is well spent money.

I don't try to rip anyone off, If a $600 polyp is to much for someone to buy, do not buy it. But It's not like everything I sell is expensive, I have very reasonable prices on many corals. I don't rip off anyone, people get what they pay for, and just because I offer something that no ealse has does not make me a rip off.

You all are intitled to you're opinions, and I can respect that, but we could go with out name calling, we are all adults.

Kindest Regards to all of you! :smokin:

-Jc
Reefenvy

mayor10
09/12/2006, 08:37 AM
? sorry something weird happened with this message

mayor10
09/12/2006, 08:37 AM
I just wanted to throw my OPINION in here.

I personaly think all of this overpricing is really bad for the hobby. I don't agree with the theory of "if someone is willing to pay the price, then it's worth that price." That would make "price gouging" a perfectly legitimate practice.

Do we all think it's right that the oil comapnies are profiting hundreds of billions of dollars because we are willing to pay high gas prices?

No personal offense meant JC, but I think every price on that reefenvy page is rediculous and outragous. I don't necessarily think your motives are purely for high profits, but it's setting some bad standards of pricing out there. More and more I'm seeing people sell run-of-the mill zoas for $2 or $3 a polyp when I can find them at the LFS for $20 for a colony of 60 polyps.

I just picked up 35 polyps of RPE's for $10. The LFS owner new exactly what they were, but sees no reason to overprice simply because bad standards have been set around the hobby. Campare that to $15/polyp on reefenvy?? That would make my colony "worth" $525...I think not.

Maybe I'm living in a dream world, but my tactics on the OPE would be a bit different. You have had the same 6 polyps (or whatever) for 4 years with no growth. So instead of reaming someone $600 for a single polyp that likely will not multiply, how about GIVING (yep, I said that) someone a polyp to see if they have any success getting them to multiply. To me, that kind of practice is more in the lines of a Hobby...rather than a business.

Again, this is just my opinion and I have nothing against anyone personally.

levon15
09/12/2006, 08:58 AM
Good response. Do you have a large colony of your own that you do not frag form. If so could we get a pick. I just wanna see this guys in a group for once not 5 polyps on a rock. I want a mass colony pic.

twon8
09/12/2006, 09:09 AM
well, technically pricing corals at high prices isn't price gouging; no one needs corals to make it through their normal lives.

twon8
09/12/2006, 09:16 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8128263#post8128263 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
The truth is I am not trying to make a quick buck, I wish I had tons of these to keep them at a lower price. There is more money in selling common crappy zoo's than the high end zoo's and this goes for all corals. Not in a morph that does not grow, and will sell once in a while.

Kindest Regards to all of you! :smokin:

-Jc
Reefenvy

now i call bull on this, while there may be more zoas to sell of the common varieties, its much easier to sell ten $600 polyps than a thousand $6 ones. which way do you think is easier and more lucrative?

you choose to list your zoas at a high price, that;s fine, capitalism pure and simple; but don't try to say you wish you could offer them at low prices; we're not stupid, a 600 dollar margin allows one to not work nearly as much for the same money.

mayor10
09/12/2006, 09:20 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8128593#post8128593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
well, technically pricing corals at high prices isn't price gouging; no one needs corals to make it through their normal lives.

good point. maybe not the best analogy.

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 09:31 AM
Some people just don't get it.

I don't sell run of the mill frags on my site. I sell collector morphs. Mayor10, You registered March 2006. You should try and do more research on morphs. There have always been people that want to sell their common plain zoa's for higher prices because they have yet to understand what morphs are rare etc. It takes time, to be able to spot different morphs.

If you would have taken time to digest what you read in my post, you would see that I said: "For a while I sold them at $50 per polyp, and many had the opportunity to get them."
You could have figured out I have not only had 6 polyps in 4 years. When I say they do not grow I don't mean at all 100% stagnant. I mean they grow so slow you barely notice it.

You are missing the point, In this hobby there are casual reefers, and collectors. From a casual reefer's point of view $600 for a paly, $400 for a Purple Monster, $800 for an acant, $200 for a pink lemonaid 1/2" acro etc etc . is rediculous.

But for us collectors, we understand what makes morphs rare, and what differentiates these rare morphs from the rest. Many of these Rare "expensive" morphs grow very slow. But then again most people won't understand why collectors would want a 1/2" purple monster or oregon tort that grows at the rate of Frozen mollases. When an A. valida is bright purple and green and grows very fast.

The fact that there are rare morphs does not hurt the hobby, on the contrary, it gives the hobby a sense of excitement. And you proved it yourself,you got RPE's for $10 a colony. Why do you say huigher prices on higher demand corals hurts the hobby?

You mention my $15 RPE's if you would know RPE's where uncommon a couple years back. But see everyone in this hobby jumps to conclusion, I haven't had RPE's in almost 2 years (Not for any particular reason, I just prefer to grow other things) They are marked out of stock. and the $15 price was never updated since they where put out of stock almost two years ago. That you found RPE's for $10 is Great and I am happy for you. But now a days, they pop in LFS all over for $40 a colony and I have posted this on other threads before.


So instead of reaming someone $600 for a single polyp that likely will not multiply, how about GIVING (yep, I said that) someone a polyp to see if they have any success getting them to multiply. To me, that kind of practice is more in the lines of a Hobby...rather than a business.

You know once more, people in this hobby jump to conclusions. I would really like to know where you got that I have Not done this already?

I will name two well know reefers in the community that have gotten Envy oranges for Free from me.
Maximus and Chris Pasko.
Maximus, did not have better luck than I did in growing them, and he decided he'd rather sell them, which is fine.

But you see You have gone off claiming false things with knowing the fact, and in reality things like that is what ends up hurting the hobby.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 09:42 AM
now i call bull on this, while there may be more zoas to sell of the common varieties, its much easier to sell ten $600 polyps than a thousand $6 ones. which way do you think is easier and more lucrative?

I compleatly dissagree with you, lets stick with corals for my analogies.

Anyone that has or works in a LFS can tell you, they sell Xenia all day long. You say it is easyer to sell 10 $600 polyps I think anyone reading this will disagree. Not everyone has $600 to spend on one frag. On the contrary most of the people in the reef hobby can spend $40 on a more common frag.

Another example, any nursery man can tell you they make more money selling 1,000 2,000 annual impatients at a time, than one rare plant to a collector once in a blue moon.

I do however agree with you on price gougeing. This hobby is not needed for us to survivie we are all in this hobby because we choose to. You woulden't call BML price gougers for not offering their cars at Kia prices?? They are both cars in the end aren't they?

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

mayor10
09/12/2006, 10:02 AM
Just because I registered on this site 6 months ago doesn't mean I don't understand the differences and rarity of various morphs.

And you're right, the big difference here is my mentality versus the mentality of a "collector". To each their own.

I still contend that, what I see as, extreme pricing on some corals is ratcheting up prices on other, more common corals. And I see it as hurting the hobby in making it less and less accessible to those without large budgets.

I apologize for assuming you hadn't given any away.

twon8
09/12/2006, 10:13 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8128774#post8128774 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
I compleatly dissagree with you, lets stick with corals for my analogies.

Anyone that has or works in a LFS can tell you, they sell Xenia all day long. You say it is easyer to sell 10 $600 polyps I think anyone reading this will disagree. Not everyone has $600 to spend on one frag. On the contrary most of the people in the reef hobby can spend $40 on a more common frag.

Another example, any nursery man can tell you they make more money selling 1,000 2,000 annual impatients at a time, than one rare plant to a collector once in a blue moon.
-Jc


I like how you say to stick with corals for your analogies, yet you proceed to talk about a nursery. You logic is absent; if you have the resources to raise 1000-2000 zoa frags then maybe high volume would be the way to go, but i don't think that is true, so you have decided to make the most you can from this one morph that is rare in the us (common in japan).

and I am discussing you, the supply side, on which it is easier to get ten of something than 1000. No matter how long you try to jusitfy your prices as something out of your control, we all see through it. i'm not buying this "i wish i could sell lots of them for cheap, but i cant'"


if one wants to work less, they should try for the highest margins on the products they sell, and thus they need to sell fewer of them, which is what you have done.

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 10:39 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8128864#post8128864 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mayor10
Just because I registered on this site 6 months ago doesn't mean I don't understand the differences and rarity of various morphs.

And you're right, the big difference here is my mentality versus the mentality of a "collector". To each their own.

I still contend that, what I see as, extreme pricing on some corals is ratcheting up prices on other, more common corals. And I see it as hurting the hobby in making it less and less accessible to those without large budgets.

I apologize for assuming you hadn't given any away.

It's true maybe you having registered a couple months ago has nothing to do with it, the only reason I brought it up is because the vast majority of collectors and "Morph junkies" are on RC you really don't hear much of morphs and rare corals in LFS.

However, I still fail to see why you stick to the notion that rare frag prices are screwing up LFS's common coral prices, when you just told me you got a RPE colony for $10. I just see it as contradicting.
RPE's when they first started popping up, where going for $30-$40 per polyp. I'm willing to bet most LFS didn't even hear the name RPE's or know what they where valued at until recently since most of them do not follow online threads etc etc . Yet you said he knew exactly what he had. And even so you got them for $10 a colony.

I just can't see where rare morph prices have affected LFS prices. I have been in this hobby for years, and I have not seen much change. Sure corals in general have gone up in price, but mostly due to shipping prices and gas surcharges.

Even so, I see corals at affordable prices all around town. :)

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 11:19 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8128936#post8128936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
I like how you say to stick with corals for your analogies, yet you proceed to talk about a nursery. You logic is absent; if you have the resources to raise 1000-2000 zoa frags then maybe high volume would be the way to go, but i don't think that is true, so you have decided to make the most you can from this one morph that is rare in the us (common in japan).

and I am discussing you, the supply side, on which it is easier to get ten of something than 1000. No matter how long you try to jusitfy your prices as something out of your control, we all see through it. i'm not buying this "i wish i could sell lots of them for cheap, but i cant'"


if one wants to work less, they should try for the highest margins on the products they sell, and thus they need to sell fewer of them, which is what you have done.


HTwon8,

Okay, so I threw in a non-reef related analogy to try and help you understand. I apologize if it caused you any mental anguish. It doesn't change the fact of what I am saying.

And no, I feel, like you said; Your logic is absent.

It is not the fact of growing 1,000 or 2,000 zoa's most reefers out there have over that amount in their tanks. One small colony can have a couple hundred polyps. We are not talking about selling common zoa's in single polyp frags. Who would spend $45 on over night shipping to buy a $1.00 single polyp common zoa frag? No one.

Common zoa's are common for a reason they grow fast, I can't see how you would think a slow growing paly like the 'Envy Oranges' can produce more than say any other common orange Zoanthid.

How many people do you know that have or are going to buy a polyp of 'Envy Oranges'? Probably none. The collectors that are willing to spend the money on an 'Envy Orange' polyp are far and in between. Yet how many people do you know have any other orange zoa, or want to buy an orange zoa? Every reefer that likes zoanthids, will own orange zoanthids at one point.

On the supply side, as you mention it is not easier to get "10" 'Envy oranges' because as you might know already, they grow very slow. We are not talking about Prada hand bags here that you could buy from the manufacturer. These are living animals that grow at different rates. Therefor a fast growing $5 bam bam orange that sells quickly will ALWAYS be more profitable than a SLOW growing $600 'Envy orange' that sells once in a blue moon.

While you might think it is easier to profit on rare corals I can guarantee you it is not. Obviously you have never dealt with the commercial aspect of this hobby.

No matter how long you try to justify your prices as something out of your control, we all see through it. i'm not buying this "i wish i could sell lots of them for cheap, but i cant'"

Bottom line, 'Envy Oranges' are expensive, Yes they are. We have established that right?? Good!
I am not trying to justify it, they are what they are, I am just trying to help you guys understand why. It IS under my control true, They where not always so expensive. But now they are.
I really wish I could sell them cheaper, in the past I have, but not now.

And Honestly, I really could care less if you personally twon8 agree with what I have to say, or if you belive what I say. I have seen your post all over RC, and it seems like all you do is complain and flame and argue on all types of topics.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

twon8
09/12/2006, 11:30 AM
i am an economist with a degree, so my understanding of markets and price points surpasses yours in leaps and bounds.



thanks for the personal attack at the end. i like that, shows your true colors; i would say more, but i don't attack and flame others.

bottom line, orange envy's are expensive because you choose them to be expensive. no other reason.

RevHtree
09/12/2006, 12:22 PM
Hey JC could you post a pic of the OE's right next to the RPE's and take a pic? Not the brown ones. The true RPE next to the OE. While you are here I would love to see that. Some people say they are the same, some say different, but we have yet to see some side by side pics of each morph in the same tank, same lighting, same camera and settings.

Oh also if you would like me to document this process plese send me a OE polyp and I will do so at no charge to you. PM me for my addy. heck I'll even pay shipping. ;)

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 12:29 PM
i am an economist with a degree, so my understanding of markets and price points surpasses yours in leaps and bounds.
thanks for the personal attack at the end. i like that, shows your true colors; i would say more, but i don't attack and flame others.
bottom line, orange envy's are expensive because you choose them to be expensive. no other reason.

Twon8,

I guess My useing a non reef related anology did cause you mental anguish and I apologize once more. The nice thing about forums in general is you could be whatever you'd like to be. Like me for example, I am the president of Tahiti. ;)

Thats fine if you have knowledge on the economy and how it works, good for you! If you have such a firm grasp of economic principals, then I ask you what happens when the supply of an item is far out weighed by the demand? What happens to price? You just can't apply everything you read in a book about economy in general to this hobby, it does not work the same.

We are talking about animals that grow at diffrent rates. So yes, when in general higher priced items make more of a profit, such is not the same in reefing and especially when we are specifically talking about a single morph with growth rates way below average of the standard.

That was not a personal attack, only an observation, I have over time seen many posts of yours that are bitter to the eyes.
I've been in this hobby and on RC for years, I can guarantee you people know how I am. If you feel I am an evil un-Godly person, well I can tell you I am not. I have nothing what so ever against you, first because I don't know you, and second because it's not my style. You could be and probably are a great person. I'm not judgeing you, so don't judge me.

Yes you are right, They are expensive, and yes I did choose to. But not with out grounds, I know what I have, I know they are Rare.
I don't force anyone to buy them. Obviously you are not a true Zoanthid colector and therfor will not understand. And I don't force you to like them. There are many rare coral I don't particularly like, and many more I do like.

Yet you have been talking about whether or not highly priced rarities are ethical. I think stamp and coin collecting is retarted, but that is not my thing. I think spending $400,000.00 on a car is a compleat waste. It depends on who you are asking and most will tell you to each their own.

"Don't be mad at BMW for not charging like KIA. You get what you pay for"

Kindest Regards,


-Jc

RevHtree
09/12/2006, 12:33 PM
JC did you see my post?

twon8
09/12/2006, 12:45 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8129772#post8129772 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
Twon8,

I guess My useing a non reef related anology did cause you mental anguish and I apologize once more. The nice thing about forums in general is you could be whatever you'd like to be. Like me for example, I am the president of Tahiti. ;)

Thats fine if you have knowledge on the economy and how it works, good for you! You just can't apply everything you read in a book about economy in general to this hobby, it does not work the same.

We are talking about animals that grow at diffrent rates. So yes, when in general higher priced items make more of a profit, such is not the same in reefing and especially when we are specifically talking about a single morph with growth rates way below average of the standard.

That was not a personal attack, only an observation, I have over time seen many posts of yours that are bitter to the eyes.
I've been in this hobby and on RC for years, I can guarantee you people know how I am. If you feel I am an evil un-Godly person, well I can tell you I am not. I have nothing what so ever against you, first because I don't know you, and second because it's not my style. You could be and probably are a great person. I'm not judgeing you, so don't judge me.

Yes you are right, They are expensive, and yes I did choose to. But not with out grounds, I know what I have, I know they are Rare.
I don't force anyone to buy them. Obviously you are not a true Zoanthid colector and therfor will not understand. And I don't force you to like them. There are many rare coral I don't particularly like, and many more I do like.

Yet you have been talking about whether or not highly priced rarities are ethical. I think stamp and coin collecting is retarted, but that is not my thing. I think spending $400,000.00 on a car is a compleat waste. It depends on who you are asking and most will tell you to each their own.

"Don't be mad at BMW for not charging like KIA. You get what you pay for"

Kindest Regards,


-Jc

wow, way to ramble on without a point;
perhaps some more work with the english language might help you be a bit more succinct and understand my points a bit better, which obviously have slipped by you. at no point have you ever or could you ever cause me mental anguish; and being the gentleman i am, i will step away now, this isn't worth the time or energy.

in closing, something i typed above that you obviously did not notice.


you choose to list your zoas at a high price, that;s fine, capitalism pure and simple; but don't try to say you wish you could offer them at low prices; we're not stupid, a 600 dollar margin allows one to not work nearly as much for the same money.

Peter Eichler
09/12/2006, 12:47 PM
Alright JC, what did you pay for the original colony of these palys?

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 01:11 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8129723#post8129723 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RevHtree
Hey JC could you post a pic of the OE's right next to the RPE's and take a pic? Not the brown ones. The true RPE next to the OE. While you are here I would love to see that. Some people say they are the same, some say different, but we have yet to see some side by side pics of each morph in the same tank, same lighting, same camera and settings.

Oh also if you would like me to document this process plese send me a OE polyp and I will do so at no charge to you. PM me for my addy. heck I'll even pay shipping. ;)

Hey Buddy!

I'll try and snap some pictures for you when I get a chance. They are not the same I can assure you, there are a few diffrent RPE morphs out there that I have had. They in no way resemble RPE's The pics of the RPE and the Envy Orange with OUT flash are in same tank same lighting and same cam.


LOL :) I've sent frags to people in the past, no one can get them to grow faster.

I'll try and get you the pics soon buddy!!

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 01:28 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8129872#post8129872 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
wow, way to ramble on without a point;
perhaps some more work with the english language might help you be a bit more succinct and understand my points a bit better, which obviously have slipped by you. at no point have you ever or could you ever cause me mental anguish; and being the gentleman i am, i will step away now, this isn't worth the time or energy.

in closing, something i typed above that you obviously did not notice.


you choose to list your zoas at a high price, that;s fine, capitalism pure and simple; but don't try to say you wish you could offer them at low prices; we're not stupid, a 600 dollar margin allows one to not work nearly as much for the same money.

You see, there you go with personal attacks. Yet "You don't attack" right?? Or so you said. Actually you might be needing more work on the English language, as you fail to capitalize the letter "I" or the beginning of your sentences. The mental anguish bit was clearly a joke, I think everyone got it.

And in reply to you're closing, although I have explained it to you already and you still fail to understand.

Yes, I choose to list envy oranges at a high price. Call it as you wish, you are entitled to your opinion. There is a reason why ReefEnvy has it's name, all this time you have spoken from feelings of envy obviously. Just because you can't afford it does not make it wrong or un-ethical. Why do you speak in behalf of the community,
You should not discredit my words, as you only speak for yourself.
Many will tell you, that when I say I wish I could, I mean it. Many did not pay $600 per polyp, and many got them for free. Just because my supply is so limited and the demand is so high Mr. economist, does not discredit what I said. If I had more of them they would, like before, be much cheaper!

And yes, I appreciate you being the bigger man and avoiding all my questions in the previous reply. Bring up the dignity card, like that people forget you didn't answer my questions.

This is just a silly online debate, yet you are getting all defensive over my questions, when I have answered all of yours MORE than once!

Again sir: Kindest Regards,

-Jc

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 01:33 PM
Peter, I am embarrassed to say, lets say I'd have a lot of ticked off friends that didn't get gifts for the holidays the year I got them LOL!!:lol:


Take care,

-Jc

Peter Eichler
09/12/2006, 01:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130213#post8130213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
Peter, I am embarrassed to say, lets say I'd have a lot of ticked off friends that didn't get gifts for the holidays the year I got them LOL!!:lol:


Take care,

-Jc

I figured. That would be a big part of why people are getting on you. I'm going to take a guess that selling one polyp gave you a profit of somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 times what you paid for how ever many polps you got in the first place. You're running a business, it's pretty clear what you're doing isn't for the love of the hobby, you see a way to make some money. There isn't anything wrong with that in general, but lets call a spade a spade here.

You're not a collector, you're a broker. When you aquire some rare specimen it's because you see dollar signs attached to some frags off of it. Most serious collectors in any hobby buy things because they want to have that item and keep it. You're like the wealthy guy that gets on the list for a limited car so he can turn around and sell it for more than he paid. I have a problem with people that do that and I have a problem with what you're doing. If in fact your prices on other stuff was "reasonable" I might be willing to not give you grief about your $600 polyp.

You're not helping the hobby, you're part of what's wrong with the hobby. If I met you I might like you as a person. Even knowing what you're doing I certainly don't wish you any ill will, I will be selling and trading frags in the future. But don't come on here pretending what you're doing is anything but big profit.

Regards,
Peter

Edit: Maybe I read your post wrong, are you claiming you paid a lot of money for your original colony?

Mr. Ugly
09/12/2006, 01:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130042#post8130042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
LOL :) I've sent frags to people in the past, no one can get them to grow faster. Now that would make an interesting thread. I'd love to read about the various things people have tried when growing OE. Heh, I wanted the Maximus ones just so I could give it a shot :) Wonder who got those...

twon8
09/12/2006, 01:53 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130166#post8130166 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
You see, there you go with personal attacks. Yet "You don't attack" right?? Or so you said. Actually you might be needing more work on the English language, as you fail to capitalize the letter "I" or the beginning of your sentences. The mental anguish bit was clearly a joke, I think everyone got it.

And in reply to you're closing, although I have explained it to you already and you still fail to understand.

Yes, I choose to list envy oranges at a high price. Call it as you wish, you are entitled to your opinion. There is a reason why ReefEnvy has it's name, all this time you have spoken from feelings of envy obviously. Just because you can't afford it does not make it wrong or un-ethical. Why do you speak in behalf of the community,
You should not discredit my words, as you only speak for yourself.
Many will tell you, that when I say I wish I could, I mean it. Many did not pay $600 per polyp, and many got them for free. Just because my supply is so limited and the demand is so high Mr. economist, does not discredit what I said. If I had more of them they would, like before, be much cheaper!

And yes, I appreciate you being the bigger man and avoiding all my questions in the previous reply. Bring up the dignity card, like that people forget you didn't answer my questions.

This is just a silly online debate, yet you are getting all defensive over my questions, when I have answered all of yours MORE than once!

Again sir: Kindest Regards,

-Jc

show me where i said it was unethical?

and you basically just agreed with what i said,
"Yes, I choose to list envy oranges at a high price."

that was my only point, goodbye

and i choose not to capitalize, both in text and zoas prices.

Reef Junkie
09/12/2006, 01:56 PM
JC,

Come on, anyone that sells corals at insanely high prices is not a friend to the hobby. This website is a friend to this hobby, that's why it was created. Examples of people selling corals at $400-$600-$1000 is just pure examples of more people that do not care for anything but their own gain.

Case and point. I have probably one of the rarest corals in captivity. It is unidentified and priceless. It grows so slow that now well over a decade it has only grown about 10".
If I wanted to, I could hype it up and sell it for $1,000 per square inch.

I have never offered this coral for sale and never will. Only one other person has this coral and that's because I gave it to him.

I consider myself a friend to this hobby.
If I had a rare corals such as yours, I would not sell it. I would rather give it to my closest friends and pray we all keep it alive.

That is why people are slightly passionate about your pricing. It has nothing to do with being able to afford it. $600 is chump change and only appeals to the impulsive.

I am a collector and would never pay that much for one polyp of any coral.

I don't agree with your assessment of twon. He has a no nonsense approach to posting and is pretty fair.

This isn't another attack on you JC, but I don't agree with what you're doing. It's shameful.

You can argue that it's up to people to decide whether or not to buy, but you can save that for the websites that don't care about your rediculous prices. This website is not that place, members here do care.

I do hope that you change your mind about your pricing, but don't be surprised that very few people will ever agree with you here until that happens.

Peace:)

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 02:02 PM
I figured. That would be a big part of why people are getting on you. I'm going to take a guess that selling one polyp gave you a profit of somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 times what you paid for how ever many polps you got in the first place. You're running a business, it's pretty clear what you're doing isn't for the love of the hobby, you see a way to make some money. There isn't anything wrong with that in general, but lets call a spade a spade here.

You're not a collector, you're a broker. When you aquire some rare specimen it's because you see dollar signs attached to some frags off of it. Most serious collectors in any hobby buy things because they want to have that item and keep it. You're like the wealthy guy that gets on the list for a limited car so he can turn around and sell it for more than he paid. I have a problem with people that do that and I have a problem with what you're doing. If in fact your prices on other stuff was "reasonable" I might be willing to not give you grief about your $600 polyp.

You're not helping the hobby, you're part of what's wrong with the hobby. If I met you I might like you as a person. Even knowing what you're doing I certainly don't wish you any ill will, I will be selling and trading frags in the future. But don't come on here pretending what you're doing is anything but big profit.

Regards,
Peter

Edit: Maybe I read your post wrong, are you claiming you paid a lot of money for your original colony?

Peter,

Yes you read it wrong.

Thank God you posted that edit on the bottom LOL. I am a collector at heart. I have tons of other rare corals, you don't see me selling them. This is not a business, this is my hobby.

I paid much more than I would like to admit, profits wouldent that be nice. Reefenvy is a site to offer rare frags that are hard to find ealsewhere. It's just a way to offer some rarities, and help with tank costs. I hate when people think I go to wholesalers shop chop and sell. I don't!


Take care buddy,

-Jc

sportsguy247
09/12/2006, 02:04 PM
If you dont like a price dont buy it. Period.

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 02:06 PM
There you go Sportsguy I agree with you, But for some reason people have to point fingers, start the name calling, and be imature about it.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

Voltekker
09/12/2006, 02:07 PM
hey jc where in miami are you. Are you part of FMAS ? Just wondering do you have a storefront or somthing or do you do this from your home.

twon8
09/12/2006, 02:08 PM
[i]<a
And yes, I appreciate you being the bigger man and avoiding all my questions in the previous reply. Bring up the dignity card, like that people forget you didn't answer my questions.

This is just a silly online debate, yet you are getting all defensive over my questions, when I have answered all of yours MORE than once!

Again sir: Kindest Regards,

-Jc [/B]

the only question of yours i could find:
you asked me what happens when supply goes down whilst demand is going up; but that really is not relevant to a microeconomic situation which this is. if you had placed your oe on ebay and the bidding had gone to 600 then we could say market forces determined the price; but as it stands now you alone set the price. what made you feel they were no longer worth 100 per polyps but 600? did someone offer you 600 when you had said they weren't for sale? if that was the case then i stand behind your pricing decision. otherwise its greed, which i can understand just as well.


and i don't envy you or your zoas; ive got more than enough types as it is, and i buy them because i like the look, not because of some nomenclature designed to increase their demand.

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 02:10 PM
Hey Voltekker,

Yes I am in Miami, Yes I am in the Florida MArine Aquarium Society. No storefront, just a hobbyist that sells frags from his tank. You are welcomed to pass by and check out the tank one day.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

Voltekker
09/12/2006, 02:13 PM
Also im really unbiased in this discussion im not a collector and i really dont care about JC's prices. Somone mentioned somwhere that these are very common in japan. If they are common in japan why havent people done some sort of group buy and had them shipped ?

twon8
09/12/2006, 02:15 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130501#post8130501 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Voltekker
Also im really unbiased in this discussion im not a collector and i really dont care about JC's prices. Somone mentioned somwhere that these are very common in japan. If they are common in japan why havent people done some sort of group buy and had them shipped ?
have you ever tried to ship a coral from japan?
me either

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 02:17 PM
Twon,

*Sigh* You are making my fingers tired from all the typeing. :lol:

Look, I don't use ebay because I do not like it that much. I think people would prefer to just buy what they want than have to wait a week and then see if they Could buy it.

Yes I am glad you mentioned all this because Now I notice I failied to mention it anywhere.

Like I said they where $50 per polyp they went up to $100 I stopped selling them because I had few left. And like I have said before people kept e-mailing me about them. Yes I did not mention it before, people did offer me insane amounts of money for them. some more than $600. I origionally put them after the $100 mark at $500 people wanted to buy more than one polyp at a time. Finally the $600 price came and only two polyps for sale. Thats it. Even at $600 a polyp I have been asked if I sell multi polyp frags. Some people just don't want to wait for a single polyp to grow.

Perhaps that is why we have been in a misunderstanding all along. I did not out of the blue say "Hey I want $600 for them." The nomenclature is there just to follow the indivudual morphs. Like what would you ask for if you wanted the purple monster?? with all rare corals you get them because you like them and appreciate the diffrences they have. Not because you like the name.

Take care,

-Jc

Voltekker
09/12/2006, 02:19 PM
no but im sure we could figure it out if we wanted it that bad. IMO me and you are on the wrong side of the US. This would be somthing a group from california should try. I know for sure there is people on RC from japan/ that side of the world. Why not ask them.

chrisaggie
09/12/2006, 02:23 PM
Why are we assuming these are common in Japan?

twon8
09/12/2006, 02:24 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130591#post8130591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisaggie
Why are we assuming these are common in Japan?
because i have seen numerous pics of them on japanese sw store web sites, and read people from japan saying they are common.

twon8
09/12/2006, 02:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130567#post8130567 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Voltekker
no but im sure we could figure it out if we wanted it that bad. IMO me and you are on the wrong side of the US. This would be somthing a group from california should try. I know for sure there is people on RC from japan/ that side of the world. Why not ask them.

i believe there are legal issues as well, though i;m not certain; i don't speak japanese, which would make it difficult from the getgo.

water hazzard
09/12/2006, 02:25 PM
Paying for a rare zoa/paly is no different than buying a pricey car/home/jewelry. If you have the money to spend and want it more power to ya. If there are a ton in japan,Where are they?concidering what some people spend on their tanks in general nowadays thats a drop in the bucket.Try to post OEs and RPEs
side by side soon. Spend more on tank than camera though.

Juan-Carlos
09/12/2006, 02:26 PM
Bill, I can not reply to all of you're post because I have spent most of day off on the computer replying since the morning. But I will tell you what you call hobby friendly is probably the worst thing you could do. If you think holding on to a rare species or morph is hobby friendly, I can assure you it's not. So now if something happens to you're colony or you're friends frag the strain is gone. Not smart huh?? Maybe people have gotten Envy oranges from me at cheap prices and for free as I said befor (which you might have missed)

If I would have hogged the Envy Oranges to myself then call me "What is wrong in this hobby" otherwise look at you're actions you might find what you are doing is "What is wrong in the hobby"

Thanks to people like me, Tyree, Tub's, Matt, Jendub, etc etc. We will always have rare morphs availiable. At least we know the people buying them will be able to keep them alive and appreciate them for what they are. But from what you said, what ever morph you have is sure to be eventually doomed to a "remember that coral?"

Take care man,

-Jc

chrisaggie
09/12/2006, 02:26 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130604#post8130604 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
because i have seen numerous pics of them on japanese sw store web sites, and read people from japan saying they are common.

Please post some links.

twon8
09/12/2006, 02:29 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130617#post8130617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisaggie
Please post some links.

i don't remember where; its been three months or more.

chrisaggie
09/12/2006, 02:30 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130638#post8130638 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
i don't remember where; its been three months or more.

Man, they must be super common over there!

DJ88©
09/12/2006, 02:31 PM
I'll step in here quickly and say the next attacks in any form taken by anyone will result in time outs given. Time based upon severity.

twon8 I will start with you since I did see one from you. Strike one. We can try for two if you wish.

surfnvb7
09/12/2006, 02:34 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130547#post8130547 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos

Look, I don't use ebay because I do not like it that much. I think people would prefer to just buy what they want than have to wait a week and then see if they Could buy it.


i think you dont use ebay b/c you know you wont get near the amount for them on ebay, that you are selling them on your site for. (if you'd like to prove me wrong, sell a frag on ebay and see what it goes for...i doubt it would break $200, so you cant use a reserve or buy it now option)

IMO, they arent worth $x if you cant sell them for $x to multiple people. just b/c one or two people offered, or bought them for $500/$600 still doesnt make them worth that much.

but if some nut wants to buy them for that, b/c it makes them feel special, more power to them. just dont plead ignorance, you are milking them for as much as you can get.

twon8
09/12/2006, 02:34 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130649#post8130649 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisaggie
Man, they must be super common over there!

here you go, proof for you:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=829937&highlight=japan

Voltekker
09/12/2006, 02:42 PM
i cant make the pictures bigger : (

chrisaggie
09/12/2006, 02:42 PM
I looked on the above link, but did not see anything similar, did I miss something?

twon8
09/12/2006, 02:44 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130722#post8130722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisaggie
I looked on the above link, but did not see anything similar, did I miss something?

third post down in that link:

Wow! I would give my pinkie finger for that rock covered in Envy Orange! That rock would be worth a mint

the pictures aren't on the site anylonger, as they assuredly sold them since march. but i remember seeing them, and they were orange, not rpe's

Voltekker
09/12/2006, 02:45 PM
chris the original thread is 5 months old, im sure the stock has they had changed. Its obvious somthing similar to the OE's was on there because somone in the thread mentions it.

chrisaggie
09/12/2006, 02:46 PM
Ok, I agree that the stock very well may have changed, but I don't think we should take one person's account of them having a colony of envy oranges as proof. If they are common we should have no problem finding some more.

twon8
09/12/2006, 02:48 PM
here you go, i would say that those are envy oranges, you?
and $15 for the colony is a pretty good deal imo

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=856056&highlight=japan

Voltekker
09/12/2006, 02:50 PM
i agree with you we should be able to find it on other japanese sites but how do we go about finding these other sites ?

chrisaggie
09/12/2006, 02:53 PM
Those are the closest I have seen to envy ornages. Without seeing them in person or compared to another zoanthid is tough to tell were they fall on the ornage/red scale though.

Reef Junkie
09/12/2006, 03:33 PM
JC,
What?!:lmao:
I think I did say that it grows slow, I did say I gave it to a friend, I also said that I wouldn't sell it.
Come on bud, it was a nice try, but I'm not the one selling frags of it for $600.

I would be ashamed to.

The whole arguement that it's up to the individual to decide what's fair or not is great, but really doesn't apply here (as in Reef Central). Because when we reefers (that belong to this community) find something wrong (a problem) in our hobby, we discuss it. It's not like I'm posting on your site that I disagree with your prices. I am posting on this site that was specifically designed for reefers to discuss this hobby, the good, bad and ugly.

This isn't good, so you're getting negative press. Which I'm sure may be good for you in the end. So, maybe you should thank some of the people here that have made negative comments?

Either way, please do not compare my handling of my rare coral to yours. I have always been generous and have never asked unreasonable prices for any of my corals. (I have never asked for a dime for my rarest coral)

Be well, may the force be with you and I hope your prices come down.;)

twon8
09/12/2006, 03:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130793#post8130793 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisaggie
Those are the closest I have seen to envy ornages. Without seeing them in person or compared to another zoanthid is tough to tell were they fall on the ornage/red scale though.
that is as much proof as i can offer from this side of the pacific.

twon8
09/12/2006, 03:58 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8130649#post8130649 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chrisaggie
Man, they must be super common over there!

I appreciate the unfounded sarcasm.

Stixbaraca
09/12/2006, 04:51 PM
That's a whole lot of "Orange Palys" in one pic...I wonder if they are named over in Japan???

Peter Eichler
09/12/2006, 07:22 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8131660#post8131660 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stixbaraca
That's a whole lot of "Orange Palys" in one pic...I wonder if they are named over in Japan???

They're called the one month salary paly. :lol:

Stixbaraca
09/12/2006, 07:29 PM
I bet they are called..."that paly that grows like a weed here and some Americans are crazy enough to spend $600 per polyp on"

Mr. Ugly
09/12/2006, 08:07 PM
Hehehe.... I've been told that a lot of the nicer corals end up in Asia and Germany because the importers there are willing to pay higher prices than here in the US.

Some particularly nice "Ring of Fire" zoas showed up at the wholesalers lately. My LFS picked them up, and I commented to the guys that I haven't seen those come in for about a year and a half or more. They said they've been in Tonga all along, but they end up in Asia rather than in the US. Apparently it's that way with "real" corals and not just zoas too.

One online vendor I know bought RoF zoas this year at $10 a polyp just to get some stock for propping. Most of them died on him though.

jay24k
09/12/2006, 11:00 PM
Look like the same piece to me.

I agree with most. I don't think the point is understood. You can sell whatever you want for whatever price. The issue is such extreme prices. Can I afford the polyps? Sure. I'm not sure why the price. I sell my Tyree pieces for 25 bucks a frag and it isn't no inch to locals.

I think Twon was just pointing out you priced em to make big bucks. Rare or not, 600 a polyp is insanely high. All he wanted was an admittance saying, yes, I'm charging a extreme price because I want to.

However, it is imo, that is poor taste and makes me less likely to respect or buy from someone who does that. Tyree is bad enough taking corals from locals and labeling them. This is even worse.

sportsguy247
09/12/2006, 11:43 PM
Acan Lords and micros are more common and sell for less in Japan, yet over here we still pay crazy prices for them.

I am about to spend 600 on a polyp? No, because it is not worth that to me. However, it may be worth that to some people. I think time would be better spent doing other things rather than sitting here and arguing. It's not like this guy is picking on new reefers. It seems to me well knowledgeable reefers and people are the ones buying these. After all they are the ones who have $600 to shell out on a coral.

Snarkys
09/13/2006, 09:57 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8076988#post8076988 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dakafall
That can't be right, about halfway down the page they're askin' $600 for a single polyp, i'm thinkin' that's gotta be a typo, those zoas aint even that nice

http://www.reefenvy.com/Zoanthids.html


its well worth it....

$600 for a 1/2" coral that even the owner says doesn't ever grow. but it is super ultra deluxe rare.

this is just a prime example of hype and good marketing.

however , if you have a job were ya make $500 an hour then why the hell not : )

twon8
09/13/2006, 01:44 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8134514#post8134514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jay24k
I think Twon was just pointing out you priced em to make big bucks. Rare or not, 600 a polyp is insanely high. All he wanted was an admittance saying, yes, I'm charging a extreme price because I want to.


thank you. at least someone understood what i was saying; and I wouldn't even be concerned about him at all, except for the fact that I feel he is largely responsible for the ridiculous prices on zoas right now. his sales techniques have brought in some unscrupulous people into the zoa trade; "i can sell one zoanthid polyp for $600?, sign me up as a zoa dealer" Am i the only one who sees this?

Snarkys
09/13/2006, 01:53 PM
reality is no one would sell polypes for $600 if no one was buying them for that. buyers are just as much to blame.

only real question for me is are they $600 rare or it just a good photoshop of semi rare variety and some people are falling for the hype and marketing ?

twon8
09/13/2006, 02:01 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8138045#post8138045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snarkys
reality is no one would sell polypes for $600 if no one was buying them for that. buyers are just as much to blame.
only real question for me is are they $600 rare or it just a good photoshop of semi rare variety and some people are falling for the hype and marketing ?


well the last ones i saw sold went four polyps for 650 shipped overnight, so the market price set was less than a fourth of what he wants, and as of right now im not sure anyone has paid 600 for a polyp, just know that is what he is asking.

iCam
09/13/2006, 07:12 PM
If there are similar looking colonies that sell for a lot less and actually reproduce, why pay so much just because the similar colony doesn't carry the same name?

Snarkys
09/13/2006, 07:37 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8138104#post8138104 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by twon8
well the last ones i saw sold went four polyps for 650 shipped overnight, so the market price set was less than a fourth of what he wants, and as of right now im not sure anyone has paid 600 for a polyp, just know that is what he is asking.

people have been known to post that reduculous crap and make some drama out of it then sell it somewhere else and suddenly $125 a polyp looks like a fantasic deal : )

not saying that's what hes doing but just a thought.

to be honest I'm not really sure why anyone cares what he charges. He's not "making" anyone pay it. if someone has $600 burning a hole in their pocket and wants a single polyp that never grows then by all means buy it, if not it will just sit there. Only thing that really happens is it makes him look bad to a substantial amount of his potential customers .

Juan-Carlos
09/13/2006, 07:44 PM
Hey guys, 'Envy Oranges' are truely unique. Many have seen them personaly at my home. They are in no way similar to RPE's. And The photos on Reefenvy have not been photoshoped only cropped. I don't understand why there is dbout on if they are truely bright orange when so many people have seen them first hand.

I saw the picture from japan, and honestly although they look orange in that picture, they look more like bleached RPE's which will get an orange hue.

I've been doing this for too long for people to say they are common in some places. If I knew they where not rare they would not be so expensive.

I have seen many pictures of people saying they had OE's but have seen nothing that is. And I confidently say this because I see my Envy oranges everyday, and have had them for years. It's not that Envy oranges do not grow at all, but like most rare corals, they grow very slow, and that in turn is what makes them rare.

Twon, Zoa's have been a craze for a couple of years already, I find it unfair you saying that I, an individual, has screwed up the market.

Remember you guys set the market, PPE's a few years ago where pricey, and now there are new morphs. I used to sell Envy Oranges for $50... hobbysit made them what they are today, because it is obvious that they are rare and very diffrent from other palys. And that goes with any coral.

One more thing, Bill:

Think about what you are saying. I'm doing the hobby wrong? I think everyone would agree that hogging a coral all to your self and one friend is "bad for the hobby". God forbid you're tank crashes and your friend looses his frag.
That strain you have that no one ealse does, is gone forever. THAT is bad for the hobby. Many people have Envy Oranges, they have been spread around all over the US. They will live forever. Perhaps one day when they become more abundant they will go down in price. So please don't tell me what I do is wrong for this hobby.

You guys say as you wish, I have been more than nice trying to answer all your questions. :)


Kindest Regards,

-Jc
Reefenvy

Juan-Carlos
09/13/2006, 07:56 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8140492#post8140492 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snarkys
people have been known to post that reduculous crap and make some drama out of it then sell it somewhere else and suddenly $125 a polyp looks like a fantasic deal : )

not saying that's what hes doing but just a thought.

to be honest I'm not really sure why anyone cares what he charges. He's not "making" anyone pay it. if someone has $600 burning a hole in their pocket and wants a single polyp that never grows then by all means buy it, if not it will just sit there. Only thing that really happens is it makes him look bad to a substantial amount of his potential customers .

Hey,

No, there is no foul play here, and I agree with you, I don't understand why everyone gets so defensive about this issue. No one is forced to buy anything.

However, I don't feel offering a coral morph that NO ONE else sells makes me look bad. I sell many rare frags at reasonable prices. Everyone that orders from me is happy. Just because I sell ONE coral that is out of most peoples' league does not mean you guys should have negative feelings towards Reefenvy. On the contrary, I feel me offering a coral no one else does is a good thing.
I disagree with you on that point.


I have done nothing to you guys for you to be upset, I don't chop shop, I truely aquaculture all my frags. And I try to offer rare specimens most at bellow average priceing. I am not a mind less hobbyist, I do my part to conserve, I am active in my aquarium society and I try to help anyone I could.

Don't hate just because I offer something you cant afford.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc

iCam
09/13/2006, 08:24 PM
Considering that things such as stress, water chemistry, and different lighting can change the look of a coral, how exactly do you all determine whether or not a certain zoanthid gets a certain name or not?

One of the main things that irritates me is that every time someone posts that they got such and such zoanthid, several people chime in that, no, they have the real deal and what this person has isn't the real thing. I am starting to think people just like to argue.

It'd be like if I anonymously ordered the "orange envy" zoanthid from Juan-Carlos, posted a photo that I had bought one from a different source, and then him telling me that what I have is not the real deal like he has (just using you as an example; nothing meant towards you by it :) ).

Sometimes I just don't understand why people get so rude with others and cut others down over stuff like zoanthid naming. It's not like these colonies are being genetically tested against eachother :rolleyes:

Juan-Carlos
09/13/2006, 08:50 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8140843#post8140843 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by iCam
Considering that things such as stress, water chemistry, and different lighting can change the look of a coral, how exactly do you all determine whether or not a certain zoanthid gets a certain name or not?

One of the main things that irritates me is that every time someone posts that they got such and such zoanthid, several people chime in that, no, they have the real deal and what this person has isn't the real thing. I am starting to think people just like to argue.

It'd be like if I anonymously ordered the "orange envy" zoanthid from Juan-Carlos, posted a photo that I had bought one from a different source, and then him telling me that what I have is not the real deal like he has (just using you as an example; nothing meant towards you by it :) ).

Sometimes I just don't understand why people get so rude with others and cut others down over stuff like zoanthid naming. It's not like these colonies are being genetically tested against eachother :rolleyes:


I agree, water params and lighting can change corals drastically.

I don't feel people just like to argue, although don't get me wrong, some do! But for the most part people are just trying to help and keep liniages straight.

Those that have the "Real deal" of what ever coral species... and By real deal I mean the morph of sps zoa etc that is desired and named. Those that have those real deals have more insight, they have the corals and know what they look like first hand. so they can clearly spot diffrences when they see other corals. I think most of us can tell if a purple acro frag is a purple monster frag or not.

Many people will go to a LFS buy a purple acro, and say "SCORE!! I have a whole purple monster colony." I really have not seen people being rude. If anything they are just helping the person and telling them what they realy have so they do not Miss-ID it.

In terms of Envy Oranges It is hard for most to determine whether or not an orangy RPE is an Envy Orange because not that many people have actually seen them Envy Oranges. Once you see them first hand it is plain to see what is what, especially since many hobbyisit know what RPE's look like.

Hope I cleared some of that up.

Take care,

-Jc

jmkins
09/13/2006, 09:54 PM
for the price of about 2 "orange envy" polyps you could determine the genetic structure of what those polyps are. That is much more realistic of taxonomy, seeing as that is what biologists, biochemists, and geneticists use for taxonomy purposes nowadays.

Photographs are to be taken with skepticism nowadays because editing software is ubiquitous.

More than likely the colonies that are offered in Japan are of the same origin as those that are offered on reefenvy. JC, just because you think they are not from a photograph does not actually make them not.

In the past two years I've managed to pick up eagle eyes, fire and ice, bam bams, and a few others in colony form from LFS for under $40 a colony with at the least 20+ polyps.

JC, you charge a price/polyp for every zoa that you stock aside from the OE's. Right now I have about 100 polyps of bam bams and I would never consider it a $500 dollar colony. As a matter of fact I would consider them a nuisance right now that is going to over take my cheap $5 frag of green milli.

I gave up on zoa's when the whole name = money thing hit a year or so ago because I personally have found this to be nothing more than a greedy popularity contest. I have no problem getting sps frags for much less than $600. The most ridiculously priced sps frag goes for far less, and there are likely to be considerate locals after a few months that sell them for less than $50 a good sized frag.

Snarkys
09/13/2006, 10:53 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8140646#post8140646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
Hey,

However, I don't feel offering a coral morph that NO ONE else sells makes me look bad.

i truly believe you should sell your corals for whatever you want to. if ya have a rare item and someone is willing to pay through the nose for it then by all means , you have two happy parties.

however , judging by this thread alone it does make ya look bad in many potential customers eyes. right or wrong that's pretty much the truth of it. only you can decide if drama like this thread is worth the $600 and good for your business.

/shrug

Reno Reef
09/20/2006, 03:26 PM
This thread is fun!

thebicyclecafe
09/23/2006, 02:08 PM
Selling a polyp for $600 doesn't encourage the purchase of captive grown corals. You are bringing less of this coral into the hobby for others, and that is by no means helping out the hobby. It's a nice looking coral and all, but for $600 I'd really want it to talk, do my laundry, or something spectacular...

cowcio
09/23/2006, 03:08 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8206286#post8206286 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thebicyclecafe
Selling a polyp for $600 doesn't encourage the purchase of captive grown corals. You are bringing less of this coral into the hobby for others, and that is by no means helping out the hobby. It's a nice looking coral and all, but for $600 I'd really want it to talk, do my laundry, or something spectacular...


Personally, I'd rather purchase 12 large colonies of average zoanthids at 50 dollars a piece and have plenty left over to frag and GIVE away!

I have collected "rare" zoanthids for a little over a year now and I am now kicking myself for not purchasing a lot of nice looking, "average" colonies.







So to sum this thread up....

JC is trying to make this coral available for those that want to purchase it, even though he does not have many to sell, due to the slow growth of this coral. This way, he is not "hogging" the coral, but allowing others a fair chance at owning it.

Many people think that the price is outrageous, but the "fair" market price of this "rare" coral has been recognized. JC considers his coral to be "one of a kind" and one that "nobody else sells". If this is true, the prices are justified.



If you don't want to dish out the cash, wait a little while, prices do and will go down.

;)

ct_vol
09/23/2006, 06:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8140646#post8140646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos


Don't hate just because I offer something you cant afford.

Kindest Regards,

-Jc


LMAO Thats awesome... I agree whole-heartedly!!!

hot4teacher
09/24/2006, 07:48 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8140548#post8140548 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Juan-Carlos
Hey guys, 'Envy Oranges' are truely unique. Many have seen them personaly at my home. They are in no way similar to RPE's. And The photos on Reefenvy have not been photoshoped only cropped. I don't understand why there is dbout on if they are truely bright orange when so many people have seen them first hand.

I saw the picture from japan, and honestly although they look orange in that picture, they look more like bleached RPE's which will get an orange hue.

I've been doing this for too long for people to say they are common in some places. If I knew they where not rare they would not be so expensive.

I have seen many pictures of people saying they had OE's but have seen nothing that is. And I confidently say this because I see my Envy oranges everyday, and have had them for years. It's not that Envy oranges do not grow at all, but like most rare corals, they grow very slow, and that in turn is what makes them rare.

Twon, Zoa's have been a craze for a couple of years already, I find it unfair you saying that I, an individual, has screwed up the market.

Remember you guys set the market, PPE's a few years ago where pricey, and now there are new morphs. I used to sell Envy Oranges for $50... hobbysit made them what they are today, because it is obvious that they are rare and very diffrent from other palys. And that goes with any coral.

One more thing, Bill:

Think about what you are saying. I'm doing the hobby wrong? I think everyone would agree that hogging a coral all to your self and one friend is "bad for the hobby". God forbid you're tank crashes and your friend looses his frag.
That strain you have that no one ealse does, is gone forever. THAT is bad for the hobby. Many people have Envy Oranges, they have been spread around all over the US. They will live forever. Perhaps one day when they become more abundant they will go down in price. So please don't tell me what I do is wrong for this hobby.

You guys say as you wish, I have been more than nice trying to answer all your questions. :)


Kindest Regards,

-Jc
Reefenvy


Not sure if these were what you were refering to...

I would love a professional or someone with photography skills to take a few pics in the same tank as the Orange Envy pictures. In person they are as orange as the "Chevy Orange" they used to paint the engine blocks with. These pictures certainly don't do this colony justice.

Dana

Camera: Fuji Finepix S5100
65gal tank
Lighting: Coralife 4x96W PC (2 "white" and two "blue")

No flash
http://www.backyardbullet.com/danazoo25.jpg

With flash
http://www.backyardbullet.com/danazoo26.jpg

I bought these in Okinawa for $35. There were roughly 25-30 polyps when I first purchased it. I bought it because they looked cool and were cheap (as are all zoos at that store)...

Are they Orange Envy's? Doesn't matter to me, I like them regardless.



Personal opinion below:
If they were indeed Orange Envy's, would I have them for sale for $600 per polyp?...not sure...What is this colony worth to me? $35. However, it would be hard for me to say 'no' to someone asking for a few polyps and giving me a fistfull of cash.

It leads me to think of supply and demand, and other precious and rare items found on this planet.
If everybody had one, they wouldn't be rare. If everybody had one, they wouldn't be so costly...but the reality is, like with other objects such as diamonds, breeds of dogs, rare art...you pay for something not everyone can have and for something not readily available. We'd all be driving Ferrari's with our French Bulldogs in the front seat while they wear their diamond studded collars, and the Mona Lisa in the trunk!

jessiesgrrl
09/24/2006, 10:29 AM
All I know for sure is that someone is smoking some serious crack if they think I am going to pay $600 for a polyp of something.
:lol:
Laurie

Kigs
09/24/2006, 11:39 AM
I have the same zoos that hot4teacher posted and also wondering if those are the "orange envy" zoos. I got mine for 25 bucks at a local LFS. I bought it because it was bleached white with orange skirts...looked super cool then.

aquarius77
09/24/2006, 04:40 PM
hot4teacher,

How long have you had them and how much have they grown in that time?

From reading this post the 'Envy Oranges' do not grow very much at all.

thebicyclecafe
09/24/2006, 11:32 PM
I am determined to beat the monopoly on these... man $600? I'm decently fluent in Japanese and on my trips there.... if I can find my way into one of these shops in Okinawa.... I promise I'll bring a colony back and everyone can have a polyp for.... $10! Screw that $600/polyp deal man!
If it's slow growing AND rare, then everyone needs a piece to propagate and to grow out, right?

hot4teacher
09/25/2006, 03:31 AM
Aquarius,

I'd have to pull out that rock and count them again. I want to say I had 36 or 37 polyps when I first got it. I remember looking at them when they were $100 per polyp and saying, "dam, that's a lot of money on that rock if they are actually Envy Orange."

I can't really speculate if any have truely grown. They certainly don't grow at the rate of my other zoos! I definitely think they look "fuller" than when I first got them, but that rock doesn't appear to be overloaded with them. As with many pretty zoos, the coolest ones seem to grow the slowest.

Dana

aquarius77
09/25/2006, 03:58 AM
i can count at least that many on it(roughly) Depends on how long you have had them....if they arent growing you might have the oranges?

Dastank
10/02/2006, 12:47 AM
IMO weather Juan-Carlos likes it or not, we do see them here in Japan on occasion and I don't believe there bleached RPE's. They are quite reasonable like Dana said.

Love to see all the customer service/salesman skills demonstrated in this thread. Makes me want to run out and buy stuff!

SteveOhh
10/02/2006, 09:11 AM
Just based on Juan-Carlos's responses to others, I will never buy anything from him. Common knowledge in business is that you don't flame & slam your customers, whether they are current or future customers.

The prices on your stuff are absolutely ridiclious................let me see $600 for one polyp of a coral that hasn't grown in 4 years or $600 on a complete 120 gallon used system.....................doesn't take a brilliant man to make the right choice......

Steve :D

miwoodar
10/02/2006, 09:14 AM
I've been asking entirely too little for my zoanthid frags. I'm selling them for more like 50 cents per polyp.

Project Reef
10/02/2006, 08:31 PM
Amazing, all this drama over a few brown polyps...

ficklefins
10/02/2006, 11:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8264302#post8264302 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Project Reef
Amazing, all this drama over a few brown polyps...

Forget the zoas, are you going to share the cake? :D

Serioussnaps
10/02/2006, 11:52 PM
Well while everyone jabbers on about this i have seen a rock of those very zoa's for sale at a LFS about a year ago for 60 bucks on a rock with like 15 polyps......

and yes it was them.....whatever if you want to pay 6 million for a polyp that is your business

Neptune777
10/03/2006, 08:24 PM
I have some wicked cool zoas I should sell to some sap for like $800 a polyp.....I call them deep orange people eaters= D.O.P.E's


Seriously, how can someone feel good about themselves when they take advantage of some mis-informed newbee who has $600 burning a hole in their pocket. I wouldn't.....

IMO they are nothing to get excited about anyway.......kinda drab.

jeffnsa
10/04/2006, 06:47 AM
what drives prices up is people selling low and then start selling them a little higher each time. dealer1 sells for 10$ a polyp and dealer2 sells for 15$ a polyp. everyone buy from #1 untill his supply runs out then goes to dealer#2. dealer#1 get a shipment in and sees they are going for 15 a polyp and charges the same or a little more. this will continue until it reaches a rediculus price so that few people can afford it.

jay24k
10/04/2006, 08:23 AM
A wholesaler really doesn't do that unless it is a HUGE fad. This case isn't for that though. This is just a person who has another color type of zoo that few have. He then thinks he can rip people off to make a buck because he has nothing to lose. If it doesn't sell, fine, he will grow it. If some sucker pays for it (and trust me, I'm sure he is saying, "AHA! Another sucker LOL") then, bonus for him.

There are PLENTY of morphs out there that very few people have.

manse
10/04/2006, 12:34 PM
What is involved, customs wise, from getting corals over from japan?

Say, if you have a buddy that takes business trips over there often, but knows nothing about corals, but will pick them up for you?

I assume customs would be a hassle without some form of documentation?

jay24k
10/04/2006, 01:47 PM
I'm not sure but I didn't even think it was legal at all. If it was me, I'd stick it in a thermos but now you can't take liquids on the plane :)

MUCHO REEF
08/13/2010, 06:29 AM
Some very good reading here. It all began in 2005. Scroll back to page 1 and try to keep your jaw from dropping.

Mucho Reef

MUCHO REEF
08/13/2010, 09:35 AM
FYI, this was just months after people starting naming them and the prices went sky high. Prices have remained high for 6 years. The title of this thread alone will cause most people to read it. That's why I'm reviving it.

Related discussion going on here http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1888199

kichimark
08/13/2010, 09:46 AM
Thats just nuts. 600 bucks for something that doesn't really grow. Nuts.

Reef Junkie
08/13/2010, 01:34 PM
I see we're resurecting the dead.

Here is a blerb from Dr. Cialdini on naming products. This is proven science.

Confusing names are more appealing
Researchers found that consumers found colors and flavors more appealing when they were puzzling, e.g., "Kermit green" rather than "green" or "millenium orange" rather than "orange". In trying to figure out what the name meant, consumers were apparently prompted to think of positive aspects of the product. If they solved a mini-puzzle by figuring out the meaning of a name they ended up with positive associations. We could potentially use this in our business, e.g., renaming the Boston Helicopter Tour the "Revere Ride Reverse" (we go into Boston by reversing the route that Paul Revere took in 1775). I'm not sure how to rename a one-hour flight lesson.

Robert B. Cialdini is Regents’ Professor Emeritus of Psychology and Marketing at Arizona State University.

He is best known for his popular book on persuasion and marketing, Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion. Influence has sold over 2 million copies and has been translated into twenty-six languages. It has been listed on the New York Times Business Best Seller List. Fortune Magazine lists Influence in their "75 Smartest Business Books."

MUCHO REEF
08/13/2010, 05:50 PM
Thats just nuts. 600 bucks for something that doesn't really grow. Nuts.

There was once a $ 900 polyp years ago.

aquaph8
08/13/2010, 06:04 PM
900 those silly silly dumb ace's

DanRhomberg
08/13/2010, 06:58 PM
I ran RV dealerships here in Soutnern CA for ten years. Car dealers have the same sort of training as well. The phycology of the sale is the same here and if you dont know any better, you'll get hit everytime.

"Sales 101"-- Create the desire for a gain and the fear of a loss.

It's everywhere you look today. All you have to do is open your eyes and see it.

It all starts with an emotional attachment to something....

i.e...... A Car lot,

:jester:Salesman__"so I see you really like this 2010 Chrystler C300.Right?

:bigeyes:customer___"yes"

:jester:salesman___"I love this ride as well. The only problem is we only have one in this interior color you like and as you see you like it, so does everyone else." As a matter of fact, some of the other stores have been calling to see if we have this color sold yet."(FEAR OF A LOSS) "So let me ask you this, If I can get them to lock it up for you before the other stores do for someone else with a minium deposit and in a payment you like, Will you do it right now?(DESIRE FOR A GAIN)

:bigeyes:customer___Normal answer..."yes"


Here the only differance is.... Limited edition!!/ Rare breed / $295 pp... I only have 6 frags. Act fast/ first come first served.....
Another differance here is the emotional attachment already exist here and they dont need to create it.

Same thing, different industry....:lol:

MUCHO REEF
08/13/2010, 08:14 PM
Amen brother. That was some good stuff you posted. I hope it is well received.

Check this out. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1139727

MUCHO REEF
08/14/2010, 11:38 AM
...and yet another. But you gotta read it all the way through for the surprise at the end.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1361482

Reef Junkie
08/14/2010, 06:59 PM
My god, I remember when EO came out. Everyone wanted a piece,but as it turned out, it was just another morph of a paly.
Mucho, we agree that the naming of these corals has taken them to another dimension... What do we zoas enthusiasts do to reverse this trend?

wickedfish
08/14/2010, 07:03 PM
Anyone who pays over $60 for any polyp must be taking 24k dumps and should invite me over to wipe the gold dust off their bums. j/k but reality check i

noobtothereef
08/15/2010, 10:50 PM
My god, I remember when EO came out. Everyone wanted a piece,but as it turned out, it was just another morph of a paly.
Mucho, we agree that the naming of these corals has taken them to another dimension... What do we zoas enthusiasts do to reverse this trend?

the only thing you can do is not buy them, if theres no market for them then everybody and there sister wont be setting up frag tanks the size of there 2 car garage and prop'n them and selling them.... the majority of people now days setup a tank....and then 4 months later they are fraggin for business....its no longer a hobby anymore but a business..... I posted wtb thread on my local site for some zoa's and said i had some to trade, you wouldnt believe how many pm's i got saying...i got these and those for $20pp....$50 for 3 polyps...... small colony $200......people are even prop'n basic pos zoa's, renaming them, and selling them by the polyp now lol....how dumb... people forget that the palythoas and zoanthids are the most common found coral on the planet!! They are EVERYWHERE!!

Another thing i find funny is that alot of these really expensive zoa's grow slower than dirt and are so small you can barely see them, i mean come on do you guys have binoculars and magnifying glasses hanging on your tank like the cutters that are tethered to the wall next to the hose real at the hardware store so your houseguests can actually see them??

kass03
08/16/2010, 02:26 AM
I keep my reading glasses next to my nano to look at my chalice frags lol.

I remember when the EO came out also. I thought they were nuts cuz it was'nt that great looking to me.
I also remember when acans were going for 2k and they were the indo ones not the nice aussie colors. I said to my hubby I gotta see what kind of coral is selling for that much money.

Now it seems to be the norm for anything cool looking to cost an arm and a leg.
I usually wait a few years till the price goes down.

I do like the names for identification purpose but the prices have gotten outa hand.

kass

khaosinc
08/16/2010, 05:13 AM
LOL... with the prices of everything else in the hobby, its the only way to afford some of this stuff..

Personally I'm lazy and sticking with yard sale stuff and car parts until I have about 10 sq ft of Zoas because I'd rather look at them in the tank.

MUCHO REEF
08/23/2010, 11:02 AM
My god, I remember when EO came out. Everyone wanted a piece,but as it turned out, it was just another morph of a paly.

I agree, it was just another orange polyp that was hyped up like it was the Hope Diamond.

Mucho, we agree that the naming of these corals has taken them to another dimension... What do we zoas enthusiasts do to reverse this trend?

What do we do? We, I and the many reefers who have seen the light will refuse and continue to refuse to pay these sky high prices. I'm encouraged by the many PM's and emails from reefsers who are now on board and have seen the light and will now refuse also to pay these prices.


Mucho Reef

Maximus
09/19/2010, 09:10 PM
Ahh, just taking a stroll down memory lane. I miss JC.

CLINTOS
09/20/2010, 07:44 AM
I remember all the jokes people use to make about propagating and making money.

Now the less financially challenged people can see the light at the end of the tunnel they too can achieve a awesome tank if done right.

organism
09/21/2010, 05:24 PM
I think another problem is the glorified mentality that if you have such and such piece you're as a result a better and more accomplished reef keeper. Honestly I don't think it's about anything other than separation through classes. Can't afford high end pieces? You're a weenie with a crappy tank.

The other side of the coin is that once people buy into that they need to protect their investment, no one that bought a chalice for $300 per eye or a zoanthid for $120 per polyp is going to even entertain the idea that they're not uncommon at all. Which ends up making it even worse as the scammers marking up 100,000% profit (which is how nearly every pricey coral in the hobby started off) brainwash the buyers who attack the people saying they're not rare or not worth it...

CLINTOS
09/22/2010, 09:16 PM
quality not quantity?

pest/predator/irritant free?

I agree with the insane prices but they always come down.

aqua cultured many times over

no new depletion of the reef.

CLINTOS
09/22/2010, 10:34 PM
I have thousands of dollars worth of coral's.

just so I can buy large quantities of sic diseased irritant, pest, predator infected rock full of decent looking zoas/palys for 90% less.

no thanks. been there done it, I am tired of the perpetual roller coaster.

just like graded fish.

coral too should be graded, a lot of the coral's I received in the last 7 years I would say 80%= fail

sure the coral survived but guess what else survived lol.

organism
09/23/2010, 09:56 AM
coral too should be graded, a lot of the coral's I received in the last 7 years I would say 80%= fail

sure the coral survived but guess what else survived lol.

Sounds like what really survived was the dust on the bottom of your quarantine tank ;)

rogersb
09/23/2010, 11:07 AM
sounds like what really survived was the dust on the bottom of your quarantine tank ;)

:)

jayfl77
09/23/2010, 11:33 AM
Quarantine tanks can be a livesaver, I've learned my lesson a few times

rekn
09/23/2010, 11:54 AM
welcome back to high school. our whole society is " look what i have and what you dont". its sapien behavior and it wont ever change.





I think another problem is the glorified mentality that if you have such and such piece you're as a result a better and more accomplished reef keeper. Honestly I don't think it's about anything other than separation through classes. Can't afford high end pieces? You're a weenie with a crappy tank.

The other side of the coin is that once people buy into that they need to protect their investment, no one that bought a chalice for $300 per eye or a zoanthid for $120 per polyp is going to even entertain the idea that they're not uncommon at all. Which ends up making it even worse as the scammers marking up 100,000% profit (which is how nearly every pricey coral in the hobby started off) brainwash the buyers who attack the people saying they're not rare or not worth it...

organism
09/23/2010, 02:28 PM
welcome back to high school. our whole society is " look what i have and what you dont". its sapien behavior and it wont ever change.

Yeah? Well I've got the Tyree Squishy LE and you don't so there.

rekn
09/23/2010, 02:36 PM
i do too actually. and eww, you said the T word

jmproductions
09/29/2010, 09:26 AM
What do we do? We, I and the many reefers who have seen the light will refuse and continue to refuse to pay these sky high prices. I'm encouraged by the many PM's and emails from reefsers who are now on board and have seen the light and will now refuse also to pay these prices.


Mucho Reef

This is the answer to the whole thread, but i love all the crying. I don't think anyone was twisting anyone's arm to buy expensive zoa's, there are plenty of other zoa's and look-a-likes cheap (fake red hornets etc) Ride that train!