View Full Version : Best way to ease turbulence in the sump?
Time to pick the brain of the RC Collective again. I'm truly stumped, and beinging to worry about my LR.
My sump is currently swamped with microbubbles. Tons. Millions. Beeeeeeeelions of them. And they are spreading to my display tank at a distressing rate. My pipe connections are all good to go, and I unplugged my skimmer for a bit to see if that was the problem. Bubbles still game shooting out of the returns. So, I'm left to assume that the drain is my problem. Right now my 90g with AGA megaflow drains down 1.25" PVC into the sump (20G tall), hitting it rougly an inch below the waterline. There it is skimmed by a G1X (another issue entirely), and shot back up into the display tank via a Mag7.
With this in mind, I know I have a few options:
1. A chunk of live rock directly under the drain. A possibility, but I'd rather not wire more lights to keep the rock alive.
2. A filter sponge in the same location. Okay, I'm game for this, but where to get one?
3. Plumb the PVC in such a way as to slow down the flow. I'm leaning towards this option, but I'm not sure what the most effective way of going about it is.
4. Baffles. Not really an option. The sump is glass, and up and running. Truly the final, desperate tactic for me.
Am I missing anything? Does anyone have any insight? I'm going nuts over here!
imtheonlylp
09/07/2006, 01:07 PM
actually baffles can be an option...i saw somewhere where someone used plexi and some weatherstripping and made moveable baffles...if anyone knows this link please feel free to post it...i have the same problem and i have baffles...so i put some filter media (cut into 3"x9" strips and folded in half) in the baffles to slow down a lot of the bubbles...im still fighting a microbubble problem but i think its from my return pvc...a trip to home depot this evening should solve that...
Entropy
09/07/2006, 01:10 PM
I would go with the live rock under the drain idea. It will defuse the bubbles well and you don't need light to keep it alive. The "life" in live rock is bacterial and does not depend on light to survive. I would try to build a rock like damn for the water to flow through if possible.
Worth considering. But here's a question: since we're only worried about breaking up the water as it comes out of the drain, does the rock HAVE to be live? I mean, wouldn't dead base rock accomplish the same thing?
LP: the moveable baffle idea is an interesting one. I'd love to read more about it.
Try putting a 100 micron filter sock on the return. That should help.
Also are you sure there isn't a tiny pin hole in one of the joints in your return line. A pin hole (or tiny crack) in your return will suck air like a ventury and cause bubbles gallore in your sump.
Just a suggestion... Good luck,
Th
Entropy
09/07/2006, 01:20 PM
Yes dead rock or any kind of rock (as long as it is reef safe) will work IMO.
dqualls
09/07/2006, 01:48 PM
I just put a filter sock in the sump of my 120gal. My water has never looked better. All the micro-bubbles are gone. I bought it from Marine Depot.
imtheonlylp
09/07/2006, 01:58 PM
dqualls, what micron?
Divetime
09/07/2006, 02:02 PM
I had a ghetto rubbermaid sump that I used for a while that basically composed a large container with several others within it. Is your pump internal or external? If it is internal how about placing it in a small plastic container with several hole drilled in the sides to allow water to flow thru it :D Just throwing out ideas!
Over the weekend I recently upgraded to a 20L with plexiglass baffles siliconed in it. I wanted to make sure I didn't have any microbubbles. Good luck :uzi:
Some lr and a filter sock should do the job.
sjm817
09/07/2006, 02:05 PM
Ditto on the 100 micron filter sock. Works wonders.
Overwhelming votes for the micron sock, none for the PVC eh?
Ah well. Time to call the LFS and see if they have these, I guess.
imtheonlylp
09/07/2006, 02:34 PM
im still debating it though....i see the MB's disappearing as they move from one sump chamber to the next, until theyre all gone in the return section....but im still getting MB's in the display...im thinking that when the 7/8" tube connects to the 1" PVC via a barbed fitting, the angles are producing turbulence causing MB's...so im going to make a trip to home depot tonight and try a smoother return section (less bends, more angle) and see if that helps...i shall report back!
noxiousdog
09/07/2006, 02:36 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8097902#post8097902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BHF
Overwhelming votes for the micron sock, none for the PVC eh?
Ah well. Time to call the LFS and see if they have these, I guess.
I'd vote PVC. I replaced my pvc with a hose and all my microbubbles went away.
Divetime
09/07/2006, 02:44 PM
I purchased the filter sock & acrylic holder from marine depot. I got 2 so I could swap it out & wash the other. They work great to reduce the microbubbles.
Well, two filter socks on order. Should be here Saturday or Monday. I hope that takes the edge off. Really surprised noone has plumbed a PVC return to battle this problem.
sjm817
09/07/2006, 04:55 PM
Besides microbubble reduction, they are "filter socks". They do a good job filtering out particles. You should see a difference in water clarity. Change it out every few days or so.
jerehmy
09/07/2006, 05:00 PM
Filter sock and LR :)
Sounds like a plan. I ordered the 100 micron socks...just wondering: do the make socks with tighter weaves? 50 microns or so?
I placed some base rock that wasn't really doing anything for me in the display under the return. 20lbs or so. No noticable difference so far. I have the sinking feeling that this might be an ongoing battle. :(
sjm817
09/07/2006, 05:13 PM
You can get finer micron socks, but IME, they aren't needed. They clog too quickly and dont do any batter at MB reduction.
Liquid Hobby
09/07/2006, 06:36 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8097335#post8097335 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by imtheonlylp
actually baffles can be an option...i saw somewhere where someone used plexi and some weatherstripping and made moveable baffles...if anyone knows this link please feel free to post it...i have the same problem and i have baffles...so i put some filter media (cut into 3"x9" strips and folded in half) in the baffles to slow down a lot of the bubbles...im still fighting a microbubble problem but i think its from my return pvc...a trip to home depot this evening should solve that...
Here it is:
Insta-Baffles (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i1/Baffles/baffles.htm)
imtheonlylp
09/07/2006, 06:55 PM
ahh..well played! spot on!
Shagsbeard
09/07/2006, 07:06 PM
If your drain is sucking air, a quick cheappie fix might be to add a 90 degree PVC fitting into the drain... loose fit, just set it down into your drain. I'd try that before I did anything else. The sideways, elevated, suction is not going to produce the whirlpool effect that a flat drain will.
Anyway, it would cost you maybe 50cents to try and if it doesn't work, take it out... nothing to disassemble.
Just so I'm clear...just drop a 90 into the overflow, or hook it onto the end of the drain?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8099507#post8099507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Liquid Hobby
Here it is:
Insta-Baffles (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i1/Baffles/baffles.htm)
Very, very, VERY cool. That's going into the bookmarks!
Thanks!
Liquid Hobby
09/07/2006, 08:37 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8099748#post8099748 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BHF
Very, very, VERY cool. That's going into the bookmarks!
Thanks!
You're welcome but I got it on RC from someone else! Just spreading the love!
T
Well, the filter socks arrived. Threw one on the return pipe, and within minutes the sump as nearly bubble free. Made the return slightly quieter too (nice added bonus). However, I'm still getting a bunch of bubbles in my return (no change over the last hour). Now, admittedly it's soon, and I'm not too concerned as of yet (more concerned about the aiptasia I just noticed, really), but about how much time should I give it before I move onto plan "B" (whatever that is)?
surfjeepzx
09/09/2006, 05:36 PM
Also, a 90 on the return pump suction pipe can help. Place it on the suction end of the pump and point it down. Bubbles tend to rise so this will help elimintae some.
*Nevermind....brain cramp*
okay...I dunno how much that idea will help, Surf, but I'm willing to give it a try. The return pump is, what? An inch from the base of the sump? Maybe less. But for 60 cents, what do I have to lose? I'm running flex tube on the return...would I be better off with PVC there?
barjam
09/09/2006, 08:14 PM
If your sump is bubble free but your return flow has bubbles then you have a leak in your plumbing. The most likely spot for a leak would be in the area between your sump and the return pump but pinhole leaks in any of the other return plumbing can also cause bubbles (venturi effect).
Glad I checked my email before heading out. Okay, let's assume that there is a leak in the return line (hell, it's about the only place I haven't looked), what's the best way to test for it?
barjam
09/09/2006, 08:56 PM
I made sure everything that could be tightened was and put double hose clamps on any of the flexible fittings. I also put some silicon around each fitting just in case. I didn't let the silicon fully cure because I figured a pinhole leak wouldn't leach anything into the system but to be on the safe side I suppose you should wait it out.
For what it is worth the combo of no pinhole leaks and a micron bag killed all my bubbles.
SUCCESS!
Well...sorta.
Okay, I've now identified the microbubble problem, and realize that it's a two part issue.
1. Turbulence from the sump was causing microbubbles. This issue has been corrected nicely by the micron bag. (Thanks again to everyone for suggesting it!)
2. The skimmer. While futzing around this morning in the sump, I unplugged the skimmer. Went to grab a cup of coffee, came back, and imagine my surprise to see absolutely NO bubbles coming out of the return. I almost cheered. A little more experimenting and I've discovered that a moment after turning the skimmer on, a whole mess of microbubbles come out of the sponge that surrounds the riser. So I am left with two questions:
(a) how the heck do I fix this?
(b) is this the reason why my skimmer is pulling almost nothing out?
Thanks again guys, your trouble shooting tips are a lifesaver!
barjam
09/11/2006, 06:41 AM
Route your skimmer through your micron bag as well. I used a "u" tube rubber part from home depot to route mine but I am sure there are better ways to do this.
Randall_James
09/11/2006, 08:31 AM
Aww, how much flow do you have through the sump?
Most cases where microbubbles are an issue, the volume of water through the sump is just too high.
Throught the sump? 400-500 gph, give or take. Megaflow drain with a mag7 return (5ft of head). Barjam...that sounds like a good idea. Can you explain the part better, or do you have a picture?
Thanks again.
barjam
09/11/2006, 04:22 PM
Sure, in my setup the micron bag is near the output of the skimmer. My skimmer (Reef Octopus) features metric PVC so I opted to get a rubber (purchased at lowes) "U" tube which happens to fit directly over the output. I routed this tube directly into the micron bag.
One thing to note that this setup can/will create a siphon so you need to vent the top of the u tube to break the siphon. I put one of those barb 1/4 inch drip irrigation fittings into the top of the u-tube although you could use just about anything.
Basically use whatever means you can to route that output. I have seen some setups that use rigid PVC (probably the best way to go) just don't forget about the siphon situation.
barjam
09/11/2006, 04:24 PM
On a side note I was reading a thread on here about restricting your return (from overflow to sump) with a gate valve to eliminate noise. I haven't tried it but it seems like that setup would also eliminate much of the turbulence/airbubbles from the sump. That method requires a "backup" drain (which I have) so I am going to give it a shot.
Randall_James
09/11/2006, 06:04 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8123902#post8123902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barjam
On a side note I was reading a thread on here about restricting your return (from overflow to sump) with a gate valve to eliminate noise. I haven't tried it but it seems like that setup would also eliminate much of the turbulence/airbubbles from the sump. That method requires a "backup" drain (which I have) so I am going to give it a shot. No, never restrict the flow from the overflow to the sump....
A durso pipe (google it) is for calming the noise issue. Restricting the discharge from the tank overflow is asking for a major disaster
Also unless you have a good bubble trap/baffles, a magdrive7 is going to move water too quickly through the sump ( I ran one for ages on a 30L and a 30T, both required a set of bubble baffles full of reef rubble to stop the bubbles at full flow
Perhaps I should be a bit more clear at this point...if I turn off the skimmer, I get no microbubbles in the display tank (or near enough as to not matter), but when the skimmer goes on...POOF. All hell breaks loose. I got down with a flashlight and watched them explode out it. So I think I can safely eliminate the return pump and drain from the equation. It's the skimmer. And I know baffles could be a solution, but I'd rather not go to the trouble have custom building some for a glass sump. I mean, there has to be another way....
Right?
Randall_James
09/11/2006, 07:05 PM
the skimmer is the source of the bubbles, but if the sump is moving too much water (as was the case in my tank) the skimmer discharge simply does not have time to seperate all the bubbles out (not enough dwell time in the sump). By adding the reef rubble to my bubble chamber, I was able to provide physical surfaces for the bubbles to adhere too. Slowing down the Mag7 made a BIG difference in the amount that made it across the sump
imtheonlylp
09/11/2006, 07:40 PM
also, you can adjust your skimmer's output for bubble control...btw, i had to quieten my overflow pvc line, so i went to home depot, got a piece of male threaded pipe with a 1" fitting on the other end, cut about a 5" piece of 1" pvc, slid it into the fitting, screwed this fixture into the bottom of my bulkhead, making the overflow line end up below the surface of my sump...this DRASTICALLY quietened my sump...smooth sailing now ;)
It's something to sleep on, Randall. I just don't know...you might be right, but when I go to my friends house, and watch him run the same equipment in a 15G...I dunno, man. My first instinct is to let the skimmer run for a few more days. It's been pumping salt for a little more than a week, maybe it just needs a little more time to break in? After that...the U tube bears exploring. Then...unless someone else comes in with brilliant idea...I guess it's the baffles after all.
*SIGH*
Not looking forward to explaining to my fiancee why I need a sabre saw now, too.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8125301#post8125301 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by imtheonlylp
also, you can adjust your skimmer's output for bubble control...btw, i had to quieten my overflow pvc line, so i went to home depot, got a piece of male threaded pipe with a 1" fitting on the other end, cut about a 5" piece of 1" pvc, slid it into the fitting, screwed this fixture into the bottom of my bulkhead, making the overflow line end up below the surface of my sump...this DRASTICALLY quietened my sump...smooth sailing now ;)
Glad to hear things have quieted up!
And believe me, I've played with the standpipe. No change at all. *shrug* Like I said. Give it a few more days. We shall see.
barjam
09/11/2006, 11:02 PM
No, never restrict the flow from the overflow to the sump....
Actually I gave this a shot tonight and it works 100x better than any durso setup I have tried. The sump and the overflow is absolutely dead silent with absoultely zero bubbles introduced into the sump (I still have skimmer bubbles).
I finally found the thread on it:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344892&highlight=Herbies+silent+overflow+system
My "backup" drain is a durso but that is overkill.
the skimmer is the source of the bubbles, but if the sump is moving too much water (as was the case in my tank) the skimmer discharge simply does not have time to seperate all the bubbles out (not enough dwell time in the sump). By adding the reef rubble to my bubble chamber, I was able to provide physical surfaces for the bubbles to adhere too. Slowing down the Mag7 made a BIG difference in the amount that made it across the sump
I am pushing 420 gph through a 20 gallons sump and as far as I can tell the over/under/over baffles do absolutely nothing for microbubbles. Considering how simple this setup *should* be I can't imagine what I did wrong there. The micro bubbles shoot directly over the top of the refugeum, down the back wall and into the area of the return pump I suspect that maybe some rubble would work for my sump as well.
I am not really concerned as the micro bag kills all the bubbles but I would eventually like the option of ditching the bag.
also, you can adjust your skimmer's output for bubble control
How does that work? I have a reef octopus and so far I haven't figured out a way to adjust anything to effect the bubbles. Any ideas?
Randall_James
09/12/2006, 01:22 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8126883#post8126883 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barjam
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, never restrict the flow from the overflow to the sump....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually I gave this a shot tonight and it works 100x better than any durso setup I have tried. The sump and the overflow is absolutely dead silent with absoultely zero bubbles introduced into the sump (I still have skimmer bubbles).
A durso really does nothing about bubbles, it is about noise...
What you did was create a backup in the drain pipe.(the water level in the drain is moved up in the pipe to stop the drop) This eliminates the "cascade" of water.
Stop bubbles? heck yea it will, the problem is that if anything at all lodges in the newly added restriction you put in (and I can promise something will eventually), the backup will go over the top of the tank drain and then over the top of the tank itself (provided the freespace in the display is less than the volume of the sump).
Now that multipage thread you posted may or may not talk about a failsafe drain but many are not going to read that far, they will plug the return to the sump with a valve, love the quiet and find out about the problem later, then read the thread...
IF you are going to do this, you really should have a second stand pipe installed in the overflow to work as a fail safe if the main overflow is ever plugged by algae, snails, or anything else.
Now if all your equipment is under the display in a stand, you then get to worry about a fire, short circuits and anything else that saltwater can damage.
Just is not worth the risk IMO and if you have ever dealt with a tank flood, you might agree, I would guess you have not :)
In short, a properly designed sump will not allow the microbubbles to return to display and is easier than having to drill more holes in a display tank and adding more plumbing.
barjam
09/12/2006, 01:58 PM
Now that multipage thread you posted may or may not talk about a failsafe drain but many are not going to read that far, they will plug the return to the sump with a valve, love the quiet and find out about the problem later, then read the thread...
IF you are going to do this, you really should have a second stand pipe installed in the overflow to work as a fail safe if the main overflow is ever plugged by algae, snails, or anything else.
The failsafe drain is the entire point of that other thread. Besides, a backup drain is mandatory equipment for any setup.
A durso really does nothing about bubbles, it is about noise...
Turbulence in the sump is another source of unwanted noise that I was interested in getting rid of.
Just is not worth the risk IMO and if you have ever dealt with a tank flood, you might agree, I would guess you have not
I have a failsafe drain fully capable of keeping up with my return pump.
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